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BruceO
01-19-2010, 12:18
http://nordicg3kscommunity.yuku.com/topic/1788?page=1

Gary1911A1
01-19-2010, 14:04
Thanks for the update Bruce. I can wait until May in the hopes of seeing some Bren Tens in person. Spirit does sound like a reliable company to do business with.

DustyJacket
01-19-2010, 18:13
I'll wait until I see pictures before holding my breath.

BruceO
01-19-2010, 18:23
"Spirit does sound like a reliable company to do business with. "

Just what does Spirit make currently anyway? As far as I can tell, they currently manufacture absolutely nothing. The LLC was formed in December 2007.

templetonhal
01-19-2010, 21:44
Thanks for sharing guys, hope for the real deal.

MakeMineA10mm
01-19-2010, 22:19
Sickening, just sickening.

How about Southern Ohio Gun, Lew Horton, CDNN, or any one of the many large distributors, rather than some made-up company?!?

Unbelievable.

Why would you spend all the money and effort to get something like this to this stage and then pull something like this?

agtman
01-20-2010, 12:10
"Spirit does sound like a reliable company to do business with. "

Just what does Spirit make currently anyway? As far as I can tell, they currently manufacture absolutely nothing. The LLC was formed in December 2007.

That was the second thing I found disturbing: announcing a "distributer" nobody ever heard of who's got exactly zero previous wholesale firearms experience that anybody can point to, including, apparently, Vltor ... ? :dunno: :upeyes:

The first thing was when Vltor announced Tanfoglio's Witness magazines as the default choice for use in the "Fortis," revived "Bren Ten," or whatever the final, actual production pistols will be christened ... :whistling:

:cool:

agtman
01-20-2010, 12:15
Sickening, just sickening.

How about Southern Ohio Gun, Lew Horton, CDNN, or any one of the many large distributors, rather than some made-up company?!?

Unbelievable.

Why would you spend all the money and effort to get something like this to this stage and then pull something like this?

Or: Jerry's Sports Center, RSR, etc., ... all of which are known and experienced wholesalers of known reliability, with established business reputations among U.S. FFL-holders. :dunno:

:cool:

leadslinger13
01-20-2010, 22:25
When i came across the 10mm i thought who it would be nice to have my old reliable 1911 platform in this round. I began to do research and found that Glock has been around since the beginning and was the only company to continue to manufacture a reliable weapon for this round.

Others, may and have come and gone but it looks like Glock will always be there.

If i want another 10 mm then i'll save the money and get a 29 or long slide or maybe even a carbine.

why
01-21-2010, 08:02
...The first thing was when Vltor announced Tanfoglio's Witness magazines as the default choice for use in the "Fortis," revived "Bren Ten," or whatever the final, actual production pistols will be christened ... :whistling:

:cool:
God no.
I love my (fullsize metal) Witness, but new mags for it are a nightmare. Easy to find, but a ROYALE female hound to break in. Until you've tried it, you havent been Really frustrated.

(anyone know any tricks to speed the witness mag breakin process?)

bac1023
01-21-2010, 17:49
I'll be interested to see the final Vltor product.

rickrope
01-21-2010, 18:30
God no.
I love my (fullsize metal) Witness, but new mags for it are a nightmare. Easy to find, but a ROYALE female hound to break in. Until you've tried it, you havent been Really frustrated.

(anyone know any tricks to speed the witness mag breakin process?)

I've had no problems with my factory witness mags. Installed the +5% wolf springs from the get go and they all run fine.

BruceO
01-22-2010, 06:25
"I've had no problems with my factory witness mags. Installed the +5% wolf springs from the get go and they all run fine. "

My question is:

Why should a brand new factory magazine need to be rebuilt in order to function correctly?

The problem is that the functionality of the Witness magazines has been all over the board. I understand that it is currently in vogue to replace springs in order to cure all manner of problems, real or perceived. Why should this be necessary? It really does seem that in this day and age, most all gun makers cannot design a weapon with the correct springs and therefore, the first order of business is to install aftermarket product.

Anyway, quality magazines should function correctly right out of the box. Beyond that, if folks just have to tinker with them, that's a different story.

why
01-22-2010, 08:51
I've received a PM on this issue that may give some insight.

Witness mags are said to be sensitive to the length of the round and 10mm ammo at its max length may cause problems. Obviously some brands may work better than others and you need to watch the OAL on reloads.

I'll be looking into this later as I find the time.

loki993
01-22-2010, 10:07
Read through the thread and there as some price discussion. it seems that a Viced model may set you back $1299 and a basic spec ops 1099. I thought these were supposed to be sub 1k guns? or did I just make that up in my head? Also when I say the pics on Ken Lundes site yesterday I found it curious that all the guns he had taken pics of still said Fortis. Also there was a pic where you could see some of the display materials, ie a stand or something, and that still said Fortis also. If it wasnt for the wear on the guns and the fact that theyre on Lundes site with other stuff from the 2010 show I would have thought the pics were from last year.
I had high hopes for this gun, but if you have a year and you cant even manage to get one production model and properly branded materials to the biggest gun manufacturers show of the year and instead show up with the same thing you had the year before. I dont know what to say. Something is starting to not smell right.

agtman
01-22-2010, 10:44
"I've had no problems with my factory witness mags. Installed the +5% wolf springs from the get go and they all run fine. "

My question is:

Why should a brand new factory magazine need to be rebuilt in order to function correctly?

The problem is that the functionality of the Witness magazines has been all over the board. I understand that it is currently in vogue to replace springs in order to cure all manner of problems, real or perceived. Why should this be necessary? It really does seem that in this day and age, most all gun makers cannot design a weapon with the correct springs and therefore, the first order of business is to install aftermarket product.

Anyway, quality magazines should function correctly right out of the box. Beyond that, if folks just have to tinker with them, that's a different story.

This ...

It creates extra cost and wasted time for the end user just to obtain reliably functioning magazines, when (a) any 10mm/.45acp magazines for the new Bren should be reliable from the get-go and not have to be "tweaked," and (b) they should be Vltor factory magazines, not someone else's product (especially from a source with known, long-standing QC issues). :dunno:

:cool:

Gary1911A1
01-22-2010, 15:27
I too wish Vltor had used the magazines first supplied with the Bren Ten, but they would of had to contracted with Meggar or somebody else to make the mags again. I do know some 10MM rounds like the Remington seemed so long I could only get four to five rounds in a 1911 magazine. I have a Witness Elite Stock 10MM and EAA Magazines that are not that great. Some of the feedlips needs reforming and the springs aren't that great. I do hope the Bren Ten comes out this summer. A Poster on the Bren Ten Forum said Vltor had a slide on display with Bren Ten on it instead of Fortis.

BruceO
01-22-2010, 15:47
A Poster on the Bren Ten Forum said Vltor had a slide on display with Bren Ten on it instead of Fortis.

That poster was me. I had a source who was one of the first thru the door. There is an exceptional amount of talk about this at the Bren-Ten.com Forum. None is very good. I haven't seen any of the gushing comments buy the usual folks at Vltor's Blog either since the Show started.

CZ guy
01-22-2010, 21:44
I began to do research and found that Glock has been around since the beginning and was the only company to continue to manufacture a reliable weapon for this round.

I guess it depends on how you define reliable.

Javelin
01-22-2010, 21:46
I will get a Vltor Ten if they are in the same projected price range as currently stated.

MakeMineA10mm
01-24-2010, 21:16
I will get a Vltor Ten if they are in the same projected price range as currently stated.

Me too, but the curse appears to be rearing it's ugly head again...

I too would have preferred the original-style Bren Ten magazines. Not only would that be sticking to the original design more, it would have provided a supply of magazines for the originals to be brought back up and running with something better/nicer than aftermarket mags...

I know some over at the Bren-Ten forums were talking about how the price jump and strange distributor sound like great excuses to dump the project at this point, but look at the Vltor blog. They have spent huge amounts of dough on this thing. There are bins of parts and many slides and receivers machined and several to many pre-production samples completely built. They spent money on purchasing the rights to the original name. I just have a hard time believing that with probably $100,000 + invested in this project, they wouldn't want to see it come to fruition to at least re-coup costs, if not make a profit...

This is purely my speculation, but delay at this point MAY be related to an expectation that the economy isn't strong enough to provide enough buyers, to keep the project viable right now. Maybe the strange distributor is because none of the regular distributors wanted a piece of the action at the under $1000 price point. Maybe the weird distributor is to just get the product available and on the market to show another distributor(s) the interest level to get them to come on board. Lots of conjecture, for sure, but these are all plausible, though I'm not sure any of them give me the warm-fuzzies about seeing the Vltor BrenTen... :dunno:

BruceO
01-26-2010, 10:54
Read the latest Blog update and decide for yourself what this dog & pony show is all about. You think that there are enough layers of middlemen between Vltor the the end consumer? This was never about dumping the project.

:crying:

bac1023
01-26-2010, 21:09
When i came across the 10mm i thought who it would be nice to have my old reliable 1911 platform in this round. I began to do research and found that Glock has been around since the beginning and was the only company to continue to manufacture a reliable weapon for this round.

Others, may and have come and gone but it looks like Glock will always be there.

If i want another 10 mm then i'll save the money and get a 29 or long slide or maybe even a carbine.

...but then you have a dime a dozen piece of plastic instead of a Bren Ten. :whistling:



:rofl:

Singlestack Wonder
01-26-2010, 21:17
...but then you have a dime a dozen piece of plastic instead of a Bren Ten. :whistling:

:rofl:

No, you have yet another CZ/EAA/Tangfolgio clone....:rofl:

MakeMineA10mm
01-30-2010, 17:32
Read the latest Blog update and decide for yourself what this dog & pony show is all about. You think that there are enough layers of middlemen between Vltor the the end consumer? This was never about dumping the project.

:crying:

Yep, it didn't make sense to me either. The Vltor Blog entry of 01-25-10 answers several things. The nay-sayers who like to give Vltor a lot of crap ignore some simple business facts - the investment Vltor made needs to be re-couped. I wonder what the restriction on the first years' production is all about? Why only 1200?

My guess is that they are selling a limited number this year so they can inflate the price, and at that price point, they've recovered their investment. If sales are really strong, they'll do another run in 2011, possibly slightly larger (~2000 units?) to make a tidy profit. THEN, if there's still a demand for it, they'll start dropping the price and making it a regular production pistol. At that point, we'll probably see Picatinny rails and SF models.

Personally, I think once the faithful have bought up the first couple years' worth of production, it will peter-out.

These days, pistols need to be made of plastic and have more "modern" trigger systems and high-capacity mags. (This last factor is probably another significant aspect of why Vltor choose to go with higher-capacity mags than the original. -- One less thing to try to improve upon later if the pistol actually IS competitive in the marketplace...)

BruceO
02-01-2010, 10:50
"These days, pistols need to be made of plastic and have more "modern" trigger systems and high-capacity mags"

Yep, this is obviously the reason for the decline in popularity of the 1911 and it's clones.

:upeyes:

Bullman
02-02-2010, 00:19
Well, the 1911 does give you trigger consistency, which is something I have grown to appreciate since becoming forced to carry a Glock at work. I never really cared for Glock, but I have come to like them because I shoot them well, better than my TDA Smith and Wessons. As far as the high caps go, if you read the threads, high capacity seems to be what all the tactical tommies want these days, so it makes sense to play to the masses. No one wants to see the Bren Ten come back more than me, it was the pistol that got me fired up about the 10mm, even if I was never able to own one. I would like a second chance at it if possible.

Bullman
02-04-2010, 22:50
I read the Bren thread over at 10 mm talk and good lord what a bunch of sour grapes and crying going on. Yeah, I know it has been a while but for pete's sake show some patience folks. It takes some time to do things right, you don't want them to rush to market with crap and then do the recall deal, you don't want them to last for about 1000 pistols and then go in the tank like Dornas and Dixon did do ya? Same thing goes on elsewhere, look how long Lone Wolf has been stringing along the glock frames....

:upeyes: like playing cards with my brother's kids or somethin.

BruceO
02-05-2010, 09:19
"It takes some time to do things right"

The thing is that they are 14' months past the original blast off date and counting, the actual price to consumers will be 20-30% over target, they've been less than forthright on their blog. In addition to that, the guns will be built by a phantom company set up in 2007 which to date has zero products on the market and have set up an extra middle man, also created in 2007, who currently distributes zero but is a wholesaler to, ready for this, wholesale distributors like Ellet Brothers. Lets see if I've got this right. Spirit will sell these guns on the sub sub wholesale level to Sports Products, who will sell them on the sub wholesale level to wholesalers like Ellet Bros., who will sell these on the wholesale level to retailers like Gander Mountain, who will be glad to then sell on the retail level to you. All this when Vltor had existing infrastructure and distribution network already in place and were tweaking an original design which had been in production. Lest you forget, D&D went from a blank sheet of paper to guns on the street in three years and they had next to nothing. Vltor had everything including all original technical documents and working models.

Patience, you say. Just exactly who's kidding who regarding this anyway.:rofl: It's true that I was born at night. Unfortunately, it wasn't last night. Is this sour grapes or the realization of what Abrams Airborne/Vltor is doing (to them).

Bullman
02-05-2010, 10:20
Lest you forget, Dornas and Dixon may have done it in less than three years but....... They were a flash in the pan that didn't last and they built a gun with a spotty quality control record. They have the ability to do it right this time. There is no parts interchanability, so it is a complete redesign... which takes time.

I can see you getting a little worked up on the redundant middle man mark up thing, but no one says you have to buy one when it gets here. I think you should get on youtube and make a Hitler video about it. :supergrin: Release all that tension.

why
02-05-2010, 12:06
I read the Bren thread over at 10 mm talk and good lord what a bunch of sour grapes and crying going on. Yeah, I know it has been a while but for pete's sake show some patience folks. It takes some time to do things right, you don't want them to rush to market with crap and then do the recall deal, you don't want them to last for about 1000 pistols and then go in the tank like Dornas and Dixon did do ya? Same thing goes on elsewhere, look how long Lone Wolf has been stringing along the glock frames....

:upeyes: like playing cards with my brother's kids or somethin.
+1
As much as hate seeing all the complainin right now, it would pale in comparison to the crying that we'd see if the pistol was released and it sucked.

Bullman
02-05-2010, 12:39
Especially since we will be paying so much for it. Well, I say we, I doubt I will be able to swing that much jack for a gun without the wife killing me. I would have to work a lot of overtime and hand out a lot of high speed driving awards for that much dough. But that is all reserved for some other hate thread somewhere else on GT. :supergrin:

BruceO
02-05-2010, 13:06
"hey were a flash in the pan that didn't last and they built a gun with a spotty quality control record. They have the ability to do it right this time. There is no parts interchaneability, so it is a complete redesign... which takes time. "

Vltor is building these guns in Florida, not Arizona. Florida is a right to work state which is why the LLC's were set up there. Florida is not know as a manufacturing mecca in the southeast. Where does Vltor come up with an experienced, qualified work force to man this operation? Vltor's operation resides in Arizona.

With all due respect, this is not a complete redesign! The Falcon had no parts which interchange with the original Bren Ten and that was not a total redesign. Incidentally, how did a "flash in the pan" manage to get going quicker than Vltor? The economic situation in the country is similar to the early 1980's.

Actually, I'm not really worked up about this. I neither especially want nor need a Bren Ten 2.0. I did, however, point out certain things which seemed to have escaped you when you made your whining, sour grapes comment.

Bullman
02-05-2010, 16:01
and the crying continues. and who cares how the figure it out or who they get to work for them in Florida....

Yall have your panties in a wad over nothin. And I mean that in the truest sense, there isn't even a gun for you to wank about yet, right now we are just wankin about how Vltor chooses to do it's business, and it is their business after all, who cares how they do that.

MakeMineA10mm
02-05-2010, 16:11
"These days, pistols need to be made of plastic and have more "modern" trigger systems and high-capacity mags"

Yep, this is obviously the reason for the decline in popularity of the 1911 and it's clones.

:upeyes:

OK, so you found ONE example where I'm wrong. And, I can give you plenty of reasons for that, not the least of which would be: John Moses Browning, 75+ years of military service (including through both World Wars), the qualities of the gun itself (especially trigger, thinner grip, and pointability). Outside of the USA, how much are 1911s flying off the shelves???

On the other hand, name me a gun other than a 1911 derivative (like a Caspian) or the Vltor Bren 10 that has a metal frame that is newly going into production?

Walther has gone to the P99 (plastic DAO trigger)
HK has gone from the USP (plastic frame) to the P30/HK45 (plastic frame)
Glock - 'nuff said
S&W - gone to the Sigma (Just threw up a little bit in my mouth thinking about it...)
Ruger - SR-9 (Hell, they're even making a polymer revolver!! :rofl:)
Springfield Armory - XD / XD-M
Beretta - PX4
EAA - Witness polymer
Sig - P250
Taurus - 24/7 (and they're even making a polymer-frame JUDGE!! :wow: )

Free Radical
02-05-2010, 16:39
God no.
I love my (fullsize metal) Witness, but new mags for it are a nightmare. Easy to find, but a ROYALE female hound to break in. Until you've tried it, you havent been Really frustrated.

(anyone know any tricks to speed the witness mag breakin process?)


Not sure what your problems were. Mine were made much better with +15% springs. Getting all 15 into the mag is a different story. I learned to be happy with 13.

agtman
02-05-2010, 16:44
"It takes some time to do things right"

The thing is that they are 14' months past the original blast off date and counting, the actual price to consumers will be 20-30% over target, they've been less than forthright on their blog. In addition to that, the guns will be built by a phantom company set up in 2007 which to date has zero products on the market and have set up an extra middle man, also created in 2007, who currently distributes zero but is a wholesaler to, ready for this, wholesale distributors like Ellet Brothers. Lets see if I've got this right. Spirit will sell these guns on the sub sub wholesale level to Sports Products, who will sell them on the sub wholesale level to wholesalers like Ellet Bros., who will sell these on the wholesale level to retailers like Gander Mountain, who will be glad to then sell on the retail level to you. All this when Vltor had existing infrastructure and distribution network already in place and were tweaking an original design which had been in production. Lest you forget, D&D went from a blank sheet of paper to guns on the street in three years and they had next to nothing. Vltor had everything including all original technical documents and working models.

Patience, you say. Just exactly who's kidding who regarding this anyway.:rofl: It's true that I was born at night. Unfortunately, it wasn't last night. Is this sour grapes or the realization of what Abrams Airborne/Vltor is doing (to them).

Bruce: not arguing, just asking: where was it writ that Vltor Fortis/BTs would be built (i.e., physically assembled & test-fired) by a start-up company in Fla, rather than in Az by Vltor 'smiths? :dunno:

Didn't see that anywhere ... maybe it's posted on some section of a blog I missed?

:cool:

BruceO
02-05-2010, 17:41
The guns are being built by Spirit Gun Manufacturing, LLC. Spirit and Sporting Products are joined at the hip. If I remember correctly, they are located in the same industrial park. Originally, Spirit was "leaked" as being the distributor until it was announced at S.H.O.T. that another "distributor", Sporting Products, was involved.

I don't care how Vltor does it's business. However, that said, I do take exception to the notion that Eric and the boys in Prescott are the next anointed ones who should get a free pass on what they do or don't do and the manner in which they accomplish (or don't) things. Obviously, there are those who feel that no matter what the delay or cost run-up, it will be OK because of the favor being done by Vltor for the unwashed masses. In some ways, it's similar to the "it's for the children" and "if one person could be saved" rationales. I personally don't subscribe to the theory which concludes that long delays equate to better outcomes.

It seems to me that Abrams/Vltor is treating the retail customer in a manner similar to the way defense contractors treat the Federal Government-long delays & substantial cost overruns. That may be OK for some folks. For me, not so much.

G-30Jet
02-05-2010, 18:31
Perhaps we should wait until the "pudding" has taken a set, before we eat it. Waiting, is just one of the things that seperates us from those intent on instant gratification. Those that wait may be rewarded with a great work, worthy of the name.

I don't care if it takes an extra year as long as it is right when we do get to have at one.

Bullman
02-05-2010, 20:12
The cost run up isn't okay, I never said it was, it just may be the way they are doing business, protecting their investment or whatever. If it costs to much to buy one, I might not get in on this round of Bren's either, I got diapers to buy and a household to run. Personally, I think anyone that builds a 10mm pistol for us is doing us a favor, help make the cartridge popular, maybe get the big 3 loading it the way it is supposed to be loaded.

But then... I believe MakeMinea10mm is right, everyone is going plastic these days, there is a reason for that too, COST. I costs a lot to make an all metal pistol these days. Even the people that started the ball rolling at CZ are making plastic pistols now. So that cost overrun that is whizzing you off right now may spell the end for the Bren Mk 2 or 2.0 or whatever the heck you want to call it, maybe it's day is over. I kinda hope that I am able to get one anyway.

MakeMineA10mm
02-06-2010, 00:46
Considering Vltor's position in plastics manufacturing, it would not surprise me at all if the Bren 10 (note that Vltor is using the numeral "10" rather than the word "TEN" for this generation/itteration of the Bren Ten) comes out in a polymer-framed version and other (less powerful) calibers.

I saw on the nightly news tonight that there was a surprising jump in employment in Florida and that it was equally surprising that it was in the manufacturing sector (traditionally a smaller sector of employment in that state), and I immediately thought - Hey, maybe it's the Bren 10 factory, and this thing is really ramping-up and they're serious about it... :supergrin:

MakeMineA10mm
02-06-2010, 00:51
Also, FWIW, while I appreciate lighter guns for carrying-purposes, I really like the idea of a steel-framed full-size pistol in 10mm. The Glock 20 works remarkably well with the 10mm cartridge in terms of recoil and shoot-ability, but I think the new Bren 10 will be a fine pistol and preferable to anything similar that Vltor could make in plastic...

Bullman
02-06-2010, 05:31
I guess that out of the first years production only about half of the pistols will be 10mm anyway, and all the Special Forces models will be in .45 ACP. I will probably be interested in one of the Vice guns if I get one at all.

MakeMineA10mm
02-06-2010, 09:39
Well, the one nice thing about them using EAA double-stack magazines is that my Miami Classic shoulder holster system that is for the G-20 will work just fine for the Bren Ten. I MIGHT buy a new holster (only) for the Bren Ten and mount that holster to the harness, but the mag pouches and cuff pouch and harness are all perfectly fine...

Bullman
02-06-2010, 12:11
I thought that they were making their own magazines, and that the design allowed the use of the EAA mags as well, just as a plus, since magazines were such an issue with the old Brens.

carguy1440
02-06-2010, 13:29
:upeyes: like playing cards with my brother's kids or somethin.[/QUOTE]

:rofl:

Gary1911A1
02-06-2010, 14:22
My dealer is on the list at Elliot Brothers for two Vice Models, one in 10MM and another in .45ACP. I'm hoping to have them by late summer and to have enough rounds through both to carry next winter. I understand from the Bren Ten Forum Desantis is going to make a shoulder holster for the Bren and I know the Galco Summer Special for a Gig 226 will fit a Bren.

why
02-07-2010, 08:08
Not sure what your problems were. Mine were made much better with +15% springs. Getting all 15 into the mag is a different story. I learned to be happy with 13.
Apparantly, my problem was with some rounds that were a tad over max AOL(G29 had no prob with them). I set up the press, reset the bullet to 32mm, and they all fed fine.
Lesson Learned: watch that max length on 10mm with Witness mags. Thanks again to the anon PM who alerted me to this solution!!!

BruceO
02-07-2010, 14:05
"I thought that they were making their own magazines"

Nope, they are using Witness components and adding Bren Ten type floor plates.

"Yall have your panties in a wad over nothin. And I mean that in the truest sense, there isn't even a gun for you to wank about yet, right now we are just wankin about how Vltor chooses to do it's business, and it is their business after all, who cares how they do that. "

Exactly! The point is that there still is nothing. There isn't even wholesale pricing available yet. Also, if you work with a small dealer or gunsmith for your new gun purchases, your SOL. If you drop in at Bren Ten.com Forum, you'll find that even some dealers who are set up with Ellet Brothers will not order the gun for you. If you feel that it's OK for Vltor to set up multiple layers of artificial middle men and distribute the guns in a manner which sets up a defacto black market-that's OK. For me, not hardly.

Incidentally, a tupperware Bren Ten is sort of like a high mpg-economy version Corvette-an oxy-moron. I could see "tactical" version with night sights and an accessory rail built into the dust cover but that will definitely mess the feel and balance of the gun.

The point I was trying to make about Florida is this. Abrams/Vltor has a reputation for very high quality but, for reasons open to speculation, few if any of the folks responsible for building this rep will be building these guns. There wouldn't seem to be an abundance of the skilled workers necessary to do this in Florida.

As far as having my undies in a bundle, I have enough real Bren Tens that I'm fairly ambivalent. If I get one, OK. If not, so what. What annoys me are the platitudes showered on Vltor in a manner similar to Obama getting the Nobel Peace Prize.

why
02-07-2010, 19:25
The gun community can be its own worst enemy sometimes. We eat our own at the drop of a hat.

Bullman
02-07-2010, 22:06
It would appear so. The gun industry isn't immune from people wanting to make a profit either I would say. I don't necessarily like it, but it is a business decision, and they are in the business to stay in business and I guess that is how they feel they are going to stay that way.

For me, the Bren would be a play toy, can't carry it at work, probably wouldn't use it as an off time gun when I have so many better choices that are easier to carry. That said, I would love to have one just cause I love 10s, I really liked the Miami Vice show (used to even have the clothes, I was rabid) so it would be something for me to pick up, but only if I had the spare cash laying around.

frank4570
02-12-2010, 10:17
I got so incredibly sick of messing with my Witness mags to get them work right.

why
02-12-2010, 19:47
I got so incredibly sick of messing with my Witness mags to get them work right.
Frank, did you mike your ammo? That turned out to be the problem with what I thought was finiky Witness mags. My problem children have been 100% since I figured out that OAL MUST BE 32mm or less.

BruceO
02-17-2010, 15:36
If you visit Vltor's Blog, you'll find the Gunsite "ungranted" Vltor permission to the the raven logo on the new Bren Ten. It has also been photoshopped out of picture of Vltor's flier on Sporting Products' website. Also, the ability to comment appears to have been disabled at the Blog. In view of the fact that permission was originally granted by Gunsite to use the logo, it appeared on the pre-production Bren Ten/Fortis and Gunsite was rumored to be doing T&E on the new gun-would anybody care to speculate?

Bullman
02-17-2010, 16:08
I can speculate it is going to cost more money than I have to spend on a toy anyway. I have a 1006 that will do just about everything that gun will do. As much as I hate to say it, it will probably be a while before I am able, if ever, to purchase one. That is if they ever get around to being here.

I will continue to wait and see. If I have the bills under control later in the year maybe my birthday money can be put to use.

Wrangler100
02-20-2010, 15:06
Sickening, just sickening.

How about Southern Ohio Gun, Lew Horton, CDNN, or any one of the many large distributors, rather than some made-up company?!?


Lew Horton can suck my balls, they won't do business with a type III FFL. :nutcheck:

_The_Shadow
02-27-2010, 16:51
VLTOR BrenTens
This is the specs that I have on the weapons
Standard model 10mm retail $1099.99
Standard model 45ACP retail $1099.99
Standard Vice model 10mm retail $1199.99
Standard Vice model 45ACP retail $1199.99
Special Forces Dark retail $999.99
Special Forces Light retail 1099.99

See attached file

BTW expected shipping is May 2010

bac1023
02-28-2010, 15:22
VLTOR BrenTens
This is the specs that I have on the weapons
Standard model 10mm retail $1099.99
Standard model 45ACP retail $1099.99
Standard Vice model 10mm retail $1199.99
Standard Vice model 45ACP retail $1199.99
Special Forces Dark retail $999.99
Special Forces Light retail 1099.99

See attached file

BTW expected shipping is May 2010

That's very encouraging.

Price seems good and the shipping date is very near. If they stick to it, that is. ;)

jesse_james
02-28-2010, 19:29
so whos has ordered their bren ten yet? I ordered my vice model today with 2 extra mags!!! I cant wait to pick it up!!

Gary1911A1
03-01-2010, 07:05
My dealer has order two Vice Models for me in 10MM and 45ACP. I didn't order extra mags as I already have many Witness 10MM Magazines. I may order extra baseplates in the future as I understand that will be the only difference from another post here or on the Bren Ten Forum. I'm thinking of adding a Special Forces Light to my order, but funds will be needed if I do that. Thanks for the info Shadow.

_The_Shadow
03-02-2010, 20:21
Gary did you order thru Bass Pro Shop? It seems they are referring the orders thru them in my area. I ordered a "Vice Model" myself.

MakeMineA10mm
03-02-2010, 23:26
I was referred to Bass Pro Shops as well.

Odd place for a Bren Ten, IMO... Not marketing geniuses are they?

Gary1911A1
03-03-2010, 11:30
Gary did you order thru Bass Pro Shop? It seems they are referring the orders thru them in my area. I ordered a "Vice Model" myself.

My dealer called Elliot Brothers per my request as I understood they were to have the Vice Models. Now it seems other distributors are going to have them too.:dunno: I may get a Special Forces Light after the Vice Models if funds allow and my "Need" is strong. I sure you understand.:supergrin: I'm holding off on holsters for now as only a few offer holsters for the Bren and I'm concerned there may be some changes that wouldn't allow the newer Brens to fit older Bren Holsters. I have seen picture of the frames of the new Brens and it does appear they were cut to allow the wider Witness Mags to fit without increasing the frame size so it would be as wide as a Witness which I don't think would be a good thing. Here's hoping we'll all be posting pictures and range reports this summer.:wavey:

frank4570
03-03-2010, 19:19
Frank, did you mike your ammo? That turned out to be the problem with what I thought was finiky Witness mags. My problem children have been 100% since I figured out that OAL MUST BE 32mm or less.

I discovered the same thing you did. Oal made a very big difference.
But I still had problems with the followers.

_The_Shadow
03-03-2010, 21:36
The latest info is that the "Vice Models" will be out in July (Not May) due to the demand as per the latest from the distributor to Bass Pro...Sorry for the sad news!

BruceO
03-04-2010, 07:41
The Vice models were always due out in July. This has been discussed in great detail for over a month at the Bren-Ten.com Forum. Ditto for the MSRP structure. Sporting Products, the "wholesale distributor" contacts that forum directly.

:wavey:

why
03-04-2010, 16:01
I discovered the same thing you did. Oal made a very big difference.
But I still had problems with the followers.
I'm far from an expert here, but have read that the latest (red) followers are an improvement fwiw.

frank4570
03-04-2010, 17:20
I'm far from an expert here, but have read that the latest (red) followers are an improvement fwiw.

I haven't had great luck with my red followers. They are especially bad about wearing out where they are supposed to press the slide lock.z

I don't mess with the witness much anymore, largely because of the mag problems.

templetonhal
03-04-2010, 21:29
That's great news, hope it's worth the wait. I still have two Witness mags left over from the Witness Elite Match, now to find a Bass Pro in my area.

saspic
03-05-2010, 00:31
Sigh!

I'll wait for a Military/Police fullsize model and a 10mm Special Forces Dark.
Maybe they'll come out right after Lone Wolf's solid top 10mm GLOCK 20 longslides.:burn::brickwall:

MakeMineA10mm
03-09-2010, 16:30
I may wind up til he!! freezes over.

I've really, REALLY tried to not get a negative attitude about the distribution choices made by Vltor / Sporting Products, and I resisted jumping on the bandwagon at the Vltor Blog and the Bren-Ten Forums, but alas, I've been won over to the critic's side.

I've been given nothing but a big, fat, whompin' run-around.

I've contacted Sporting Products, who said they'd be happy to take my dealer order, but the minimum purchase was TEN pistols (I could mix-and-match models to get to the 10). I also got the distinct impression (he told me flat out) that I would not get all 10 pistols I ordered, at least initially, and the implication was that it would take a year or two to complete the order (into the second or third production runs). Not wanting to wrap up $10,000 in my order, I said what could you do for me if I just wanted one or two?

They referred me to their sales agent, DunkinLewis, who obviously was also only interested in selling blocks of 10 pistols. Craig there forwarded my e-mail with FFL attached to Bass Pro Shops.

The nice lady at Bass Pro shops quoted me a price that was a little under MSRP (by $100 actually), but still $150 above dealer cost. She also pointed me towards a couple other distributors who had never been mentioned on the Bren-Ten forums, and after calling them, none of them have ever even heard of Vltor or the Bren Ten... (So, here again the info. we get "unofficially" from knowledgeable folks on these forums is better than what we get from the companies involved...)

Yep, Vltor/Sporting Products, whatever or how-ever they were trying to accomplish here, have SCREWED THE POOCH as far as I'm concerned. If I don't get some help from the last e-mail I sent back to Sporting Products, I'll probably save my money.

BruceO
03-09-2010, 18:39
"Yep, Vltor/Sporting Products, whatever or how-ever they were trying to accomplish here, have SCREWED THE POOCH as far as I'm concerned."


Finally figured that out, did ya! :whistling:

It's not the product, it's the horses**t way they treat the potential retail customers. I think that they believe we were all born yesterday.

MakeMineA10mm
05-01-2010, 15:20
Well, just as an FYI, after I wrote back with an unhappy attitude, they became accomodating. Don't know if I'll still be able to get 1-3 pistols or not, but they say I will. Guess we'll see come May/June, eh?

MakeMineA10mm
07-28-2010, 16:53
Well, just as an FYI, after I wrote back with an unhappy attitude, they became accomodating. Don't know if I'll still be able to get 1-3 pistols or not, but they say I will. Guess we'll see come May/June, eh?

Or maybe November/December... :faint:

BruceO
07-29-2010, 11:40
It all depends on if they can find something better and more profitable to do than build these guns-like new DOD contracts for instance. I wonder just how many more times they will choose to play the "DOD contract" card anyway? I mean, if they feel that they can't or don't want to increase production capacity to manufacture these and find Government work much more lucrative, they should just be honest and say so, not lead folks around by a nose ring!

:upeyes: