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conpro
01-19-2010, 14:24
I saw on the news were trijicon acog rifle scopes has bible codes printed on them on the base of the scope.

mvician
01-19-2010, 15:10
bible codes :whistling: ABC news :yawn:

They've been on there for YEARS........now it's a big deal. :upeyes:


http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/us-military-weapons-inscribed-secret-jesus-bible-codes/story?id=9575794&page=1



U.S. Military Weapons Inscribed With Secret 'Jesus' Bible Codes
Pentagon Supplier for Rifle Sights Says It Has 'Always' Added New Testament References
By JOSEPH RHEE, TAHMAN BRADLEY and BRIAN ROSS
Jan. 18, 2010


Coded references to New Testament Bible passages about Jesus Christ are inscribed on high-powered rifle sights provided to the United States military by a Michigan company, an ABC News investigation has found.
Scopes

http://a.abcnews.com/images/Blotter/abc_scope_100118_mn.jpg


At the end of the serial number on Trijicon's ACOG gun sight, you can read "JN8:12", a reference to the New Testament book of John, Chapter 8, Verse 12, which reads: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." The ACOG is widely used by the U.S. military. Collapse


The sights are used by U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and in the training of Iraqi and Afghan soldiers. The maker of the sights, Trijicon, has a $660 million multi-year contract to provide up to 800,000 sights to the Marine Corps, and additional contracts to provide sights to the U.S. Army.

U.S. military rules specifically prohibit the proselytizing of any religion in Iraq or Afghanistan and were drawn up in order to prevent criticism that the U.S. was embarked on a religious "Crusade" in its war against al Qaeda and Iraqi insurgents.
'It violates the Constitution'
The company's vision is described on its Web site: "Guided by our values, we endeavor to have our products used wherever precision aiming solutions are required to protect individual freedom."

"We believe that America is great when its people are good," says the Web site. "This goodness has been based on Biblical standards throughout our history, and we will strive to follow those morals."

Spokespeople for the U.S. Army and the Marine Corps both said their services were unaware of the biblical markings. They said officials were discussing what steps, if any, to take in the wake of the ABCNews.com report. It is not known how many Trijicon sights are currently in use by the U.S. military.

The biblical references appear in the same type font and size as the model numbers on the company's Advanced Combat Optical Guides, called the ACOG.

A photo on a Department of Defense Web site shows Iraqi soldiers being trained by U.S. troops with a rifle equipped with the bible-coded sights.

"It's wrong, it violates the Constitution, it violates a number of federal laws," said Michael "Mikey" Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, an advocacy group that seeks to preserve the separation of church and state in the military.
'Firearms of Jesus Christ'
"It allows the Mujahedeen, the Taliban, al Qaeda and the insurrectionists and jihadists to claim they're being shot by Jesus rifles," he said.

Weinstein, an attorney and former Air Force officer, said many members of his group who currently serve in the military have complained about the markings on the sights. He also claims they've told him that commanders have referred to weapons with the sights as "spiritually transformed firearm[s] of Jesus Christ."
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He said coded biblical inscriptions play into the hands of "those who are calling this a Crusade."

According to a government contracting watchdog group, fedspending.org, Trijicon had more than $100 million in government contracts in fiscal year 2008. The Michigan company won a $33 million Pentagon contract in July, 2009 for a new machine gun optic, according to Defense Industry Daily. The company's earnings from the U.S. military jumped significantly after 2005, when it won a $660 million long-term contract to supply the Marine Corps with sights.

"This is probably the best example of violation of the separation of church and state in this country," said Weinstein. "It's literally pushing fundamentalist Christianity at the point of a gun against the people that we're fighting. We're emboldening an enemy."

ronin.45
01-19-2010, 15:34
If they have always done it, and list it on the website, I say the military can't really ***** too much. If it angers the insurgents GOOD I liken this to the flaming pigs from Noveske.

trainbrainmike
01-19-2010, 16:49
I saw on the news were trijicon acog rifle scopes has bible codes printed on them on the base of the scope.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So ? The next best thing would be to put a little pig blood in the propellant for all military rounds....:tongueout:

It don't bother me at all !

RMTactical
01-19-2010, 17:22
I cant believe this is news.

DLEE25
01-19-2010, 17:46
Anyone familiar with the Trijicon product is well aware of the markings. I am also surprised that it's a big deal all of a sudden. I suppose some liberal reporter who wouldn't know his ACOG from a hole in the ground immediately found this offensive towards our muslim "opponents" (ya see we don't have any enemies anymore).

I don't see the military dropping the ACOG anytime soon. It's just too good of a product. I can forsee future military versions being made without the markings, but they would never just dump the sights over this made up controversy.

This story is not one of conspiracy, but rather media stupidity.

MrMurphy
01-19-2010, 17:57
The verses are not proselytizing verses, they all refer to light.

Considering Trijicon scopes all need light to work, there is a reason for that.........

Straight Pipe
01-19-2010, 20:56
Amen and Hallelujah, Brothers !

DougW
01-19-2010, 21:07
Amen Brothers! Glad I own a TA31F.

Roostmonkey
01-19-2010, 21:36
I was considering an ACOG vs. an Aimpoint w/magnifier. They just lost my buisness right there.

Flinter
01-19-2010, 21:55
I was considering an ACOG vs. an Aimpoint w/magnifier. They just lost my buisness right there.

I'm sure they won't miss ya.

AK_Stick
01-19-2010, 22:01
I was considering an ACOG vs. an Aimpoint w/magnifier. They just lost my buisness right there.


I'll buy one to make up for you, don't worry.

squirreld
01-19-2010, 22:06
I'll buy one to make up for you, don't worry.

Ill second that

faawrenchbndr
01-19-2010, 22:08
I'll buy one to make up for you, don't worry.

Ill second that

I'll call dibbs on the thirds! :supergrin:

ArmoryDoc
01-19-2010, 22:09
I was considering an ACOG vs. an Aimpoint w/magnifier. They just lost my buisness right there.

I'll step up in your stead there big'un and make up that money they would have been missing.

bradleybear
01-19-2010, 22:20
It allows the Mujahedeen, the Taliban, al Qaeda and the insurrectionists and jihadists to claim they're being shot by Jesus rifles," he said.

It is like a silver bullet to a werewolf, or a wooden stake in the heart to a vampire right?

Jesus rifles are especially deadly to muslims :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Kentak
01-19-2010, 22:36
I'm a strong advocate of separation of church and state, but this just doesn't bother me. It's not like the govt required the codes. That would be different matter.

Obviously, if anyone bases a buy/no buy choice due to this, that's totally appropriate, including for the govt. I'm clueless about the military contract process, but if future purchases specify a "no code" spec, as would be completely appropriate, then Trijicon has every right to choose not to bid. Somehow, I doubt they would do that.

BigEd
01-19-2010, 22:41
I was considering an ACOG vs. an Aimpoint w/magnifier. They just lost my buisness right there.

I'll be purchasing a Trijico Reflex for my Mini-14 soon. Hopefully it'll have the "Holy Markings" on it.

CW Mock
01-19-2010, 23:00
I was considering an ACOG vs. an Aimpoint w/magnifier. They just lost my buisness right there.

Don't think they are going to give a ****.

Makes me wish I could use one at work even more now.

NeverMore1701
01-19-2010, 23:18
This just pushed me that much farther toward a TR24 or ACOG for my BCM midlength. Not that I care either way about the markings, I just love how bent out of shape panty-wasted little girls get over it.

Chuck TX
01-20-2010, 00:14
The verses are not proselytizing verses, they all refer to light.

Considering Trijicon scopes all need light to work, there is a reason for that.........

Obviously it's racism against vampires. :tbo:

Alaskapopo
01-20-2010, 01:48
I was considering an ACOG vs. an Aimpoint w/magnifier. They just lost my buisness right there.

Why? What is wrong with them being christian and being proud of it.
Pat

RMTactical
01-20-2010, 03:56
I'll call dibbs on the thirds! :supergrin:

Fourths.

Am considering a mini ACOG for my next AR15 build... which is nearing completion... :supergrin:

Alaskapopo
01-20-2010, 04:42
Fourths.

Am considering a mini ACOG for my next AR15 build... which is nearing completion... :supergrin:

Try the TA33 I think you will like it.
Pat

Gallium
01-20-2010, 04:45
I was all set on getting a Eotech XPS...now I'll have to squeeze some more pennies out each week to get the ACOG... :)


'Drew

RMTactical
01-20-2010, 05:21
Try the TA33 I think you will like it.
Pat

I think I just might. :supergrin:

m814
01-20-2010, 06:14
I think it is great a present day company has the balls to do this still with all of the liberals around and special interest groups. Core values is what this country needs. If I had the money I would give it to Trijicon next time I buy an optic. I didn't know anything about this until the news release. I like it and will tell all my friends about it.

aptrpl6
01-20-2010, 09:56
I'm about as non-religious as a person can be yet I don't see the problem. Trijicon is a private company and has the right make whatever serial numbers it chooses. It has nothing to do with a crusade. It has everything to do with the best product for our military forces who are in harm's way.:2gun:

Jitterbug
01-20-2010, 16:10
Well I checked my only set of Trijicon night sites and was dissapointed they weren't there. Seems if IRC I had a set or two in the past with "odd markings"

Does Trijicon put these on night sites?

Alaskapopo
01-20-2010, 16:15
Well I checked my only set of Trijicon night sites and was dissapointed they weren't there. Seems if IRC I had a set or two in the past with "odd markings"

Does Trijicon put these on night sites?

I doubt they would have enough room to write them on the night sights. It is only their optics I believe.
Pat

faawrenchbndr
01-20-2010, 17:53
I'm about as non-religious as a person can be yet I don't see the problem. Trijicon is a private company and has the right make whatever serial numbers it chooses. It has nothing to do with a crusade. It has everything to do with the best product for our military forces who are in harm's way.:2gun:

Outstanding,....very well spoken.
I thank you Sir,......MSgt(ret)

HogGlocker
01-20-2010, 19:36
I was considering an ACOG vs. an Aimpoint w/magnifier. They just lost my buisness right there.

Freedom of religion...not Freedom FROM it.

Your prerogative though to do as you will.....and the same is true for the fine folks at Trijicon.

Their equipment serves and protects those who serve and protect you...and your opinion, mind you.

Jitterbug
01-20-2010, 19:52
Free to express their worldview...and I'm free to spend my money were I want...I'll be looking hard at their optics. Already have and like their pistol sites.

glaze22
01-20-2010, 20:04
I was considering an ACOG vs. an Aimpoint w/magnifier. They just lost my buisness right there.

I am pretty sure if the SHTF and the BEST optic gave me an edge against the other force or what have you, I can damn well tell you I would not care if the optic said "the shooter of this gun is gay" let alone had a marking on it that refered to a text in the bible. If you can actually say it would bother you enough to put your life in more danger because of what an optic says on it, then you are DUMBER than I can fathom!

If we are ever in eachothers sights, I hope you have an NCstar and I have an evil ACOG on my rifle!

faawrenchbndr
01-20-2010, 20:09
Lord forbid a guy realizes he has a ACOG and a Crossbreed holster.

gunsnhoses
01-20-2010, 22:51
If they make the scope they can put any damn thing they want on it. No laws broken. Buy it or don't I'm sure it's not going to change their policy one way or another.

Javelin
01-20-2010, 22:53
I will only buy Trijicon products from now on (and I buy a hell of a lot of firearms and firearm accessories).

:thumbsup:

jjtroutbum
01-21-2010, 01:32
Hope there is a press release. About the impending sales increase. Now if PCincorporated.usgov tries to fudge on their contracts hope Trijicon keeps pumping out as is and sues for payment.

DLEE25
01-21-2010, 03:23
I've only been able to afford one ACOG. Best American made optic period. I love the Biblical markings. There is nothing hateful about it at all. They represent what's good about America.

JDG
01-21-2010, 04:10
Well thats that! No ACOGs for me!:upeyes: I just shot a friends AR with an ACOG, these thing are awesome!! Kicks ass over my Eotec, course it was a X4, but great optic non the less. Whys everyone gotta hate God, and such? Freeking Democraps:supergrin:

Spiffums
01-21-2010, 08:20
I will only buy Trijicon products from now on (and I buy a hell of a lot of firearms and firearm accessories).

:thumbsup:

We know your sick and have incurable firearm buying and toys to go with it disease. :supergrin:

Daekwan
01-21-2010, 10:27
I was all set on getting a Eotech XPS...now I'll have to squeeze some more pennies out each week to get the ACOG... :)


'Drew

I already have a XPS.. now I have a reason to get an ACOG.. :)

Brucev
01-21-2010, 11:03
Super Cool! More power to them and more power to our soldiers!

engineer151515
01-21-2010, 11:09
On my list to purchase - with markings!

RUSH2112
01-21-2010, 12:52
It's things like this that shows what complete loons the left actually are. And I realize there are plenty of God hating conservatives as well. But do these people know NOTHING of the founders of this country?

I just learned of this a few days ago. And if I ever have need for a high end optic, Trijicon gets my money.

Cobra6
01-21-2010, 13:34
I'm a strong advocate of separation of church and state.

Can you show me this in the Constitution?

Alaskapopo
01-21-2010, 14:19
Can you show me this in the Constitution?

Actually it says that church and state shall be separate in the constitution.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof .
Pat

RUSH2112
01-21-2010, 14:59
I'm a strong advocate of separation of church and state.

So am I, and both the church and state are better off this way. But I think anyone who has a problem with the military purchasing scopes because they bear these markings, supposedly based on the principle of separation of church and state, is distorting this principle beyond all recognition.

Acogs are not being used to pass legislation.
In fact, with regards to the Acogs, too much emphasis is being placed on this - "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,"

when what is really more applicable in this case is this - "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

beerswimmer
01-21-2010, 16:14
I don't belive in god, an afterlife, unicorns, leprechauns, or santa, or jesus.

But I would sell my soul for a few ACOGS!!!!!!!!:rofl:


I'd probably just cover up the SN if they bothered me. My parents are religious, they would probably get a kick out this OLD NEWS!!!!!:yawn:

DScottHewitt
01-21-2010, 18:06
bible codes :whistling: ABC news :yawn:

They've been on there for YEARS........now it's a big deal. :upeyes:


http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/us-military-weapons-inscribed-secret-jesus-bible-codes/story?id=9575794&page=1

No longer an issue:

January 21, 2010 http://detnews.com/article/20100121/METRO02/1210471

Wixom gun sight maker will stop inscribing biblical references

MIKE WILKINSON
The Detroit News

The Wixom company under fire for putting tiny references to Bible verses on gun sights sold to the U.S. military, announced today it will drop the inscriptions on future arms shipments and offer kits to help the military remove codes on sights in the hands of troops.

Trijicon Inc., responding to an uproar in the United States and abroad, said it has voluntarily decided to drop the inscriptions on all of its products made for the Defense Department. It will also supply the Pentagon with 100 "modification kits" to allow for the removal of the codes.

The company said it took the steps "to ensure the war-time production needs of the troops are met as quickly as possible," according to a statement released today.

"Trijicon has proudly served the U.S. military for more than two decades, and our decision to offer to voluntarily remove these references is both prudent and appropriate," Stephen Bindon, company president and CEO, said in the statement.

The company will offer the same remedies to foreign military forces. New Zealand had announced its displeasure today, and military officials in Australia were investigating.

New Zealand military officials said the biblical citations were inappropriate and could stoke religious tensions.

The inscriptions came to light this week, and U.S. Army officials said they would investigate whether the gun sights used by U.S. troops in Afghanistan and Iraq violate U.S. procurement laws. The company, which employs about 200, has hundreds of millions of dollars in contracts with the U.S. military alone. It sells its sights around the world, including in Muslim countries.

Trijicon said it has had such inscriptions on its products for three decades and has never received complaints about them before. The inscriptions, which don't include text from the Bible, refer numerically to passages from the book.

The Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight rifle sights used by the U.S. and other countries allow them to pinpoint targets day or night. They carried references to Bible verses that appeared in raised lettering at the end of the sight stock number.

Markings included "JN8:12," a reference to John 8:12: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, 'I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life,' " according to the King James version of the Bible.

The Trijicon Reflex sight is stamped with 2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ," the King James version reads.

Trijicon said biblical references were first put on the sites nearly 30 years ago by the company founder, Glyn Bindon, who was killed in a plane crash in 2003. His son Stephen, Trijicon's president, continued the practice.

The references have stoked concerns by critics in the U.S. about whether they break a government rule that bars proselytizing by American troops. But U.S. military officials said the citations don't violate the ban and that they won't stop using the tens of thousands of telescoping sights that have been bought.

mwilkinson@detnews.com">mwilkinson@detnews.com (313) 222-2563 The Associated Press contributed.

ArmoryDoc
01-21-2010, 18:11
Sad indeed.

NeverMore1701
01-21-2010, 20:40
Damn, wonder if the civi versions will continue to have them, maybe as an option?

05wrxfl
01-21-2010, 22:20
Damn, wonder if the civi versions will continue to have them, maybe as an option?

Well i just sent an email asking this very question. Ill post what ever reply i recive from them. Im hoping its a yes.

RUSH2112
01-22-2010, 06:58
Why not go all the way, and replace the "disturbing markings" with some beloved Muslim scribling? I mean anything worth doing is worth doing right.

Are they sending troops home if they have 'disturbing" tattoos? Or better yet, courtmarshall them! Evil crusaders!
Are they allowed to say disturbing prayers? What about disturbing letters from those evil Christian families back home? Not allowed? Dear God I hope not!

Oops, I mean, "dear ____ I hope not!

By the way, anyone know the name, address and phone# of the "journalist" who exposed these disturbing markings to the masses? I think he/she should be famous. Unbearably famous.

rkwrichard
01-22-2010, 07:53
What if it makes your son a priority target over another soldier with an Aimpoint that is without the biblical reference?

RUSH2112
01-22-2010, 08:22
I'm sure ABC has turned that from 99.9% improbable to something quite possible now. Mission accomplished. Sometimes I think our domestic enemies outnumber our foreign ones. They're certainly as effective.

glaze22
01-22-2010, 14:41
What if it makes your son a priority target over another soldier with an Aimpoint that is without the biblical reference?

Now I am not saying that your question is not a good one and I would not be happy if my son (dont have one)/ or best friend was a priority target because of a code on a weapon. But my question to yours would be how in GOD'S NAME would they be able to tell who has an evil ACOG or not? They would have to have a sniper's scope and be 20 yards away to have a chance to see it. That would be like saying "I only crash into cars that have a VIN number with 666 in it". How would I be able to see the VIN # on someone elses car while driving in mine?

rkwrichard
01-22-2010, 15:10
Now I am not saying that your question is not a good one and I would not be happy if my son (dont have one)/ or best friend was a priority target because of a code on a weapon. But my question to yours would be how in GOD'S NAME would they be able to tell who has an evil ACOG or not? They would have to have a sniper's scope and be 20 yards away to have a chance to see it. That would be like saying "I only crash into cars that have a VIN number with 666 in it". How would I be able to see the VIN # on someone elses car while driving in mine?

Well I do have a son who carries one and because of all the press anyone carrying a Trijicon may be a priority target. And if you think the enemy of today's soldiers does not walk within twenty yards of them talk to a few soldiers. Its hard to tell the good guys from the bad guys and sometimes they are the same people depending on who is paying them today.

Beware Owner
01-22-2010, 16:38
I want one and I don't even own a rifle.

Flinter
01-22-2010, 16:51
Well I do have a son who carries one and because of all the press anyone carrying a Trijicon may be a priority target. And if you think the enemy of today's soldiers does not walk within twenty yards of them talk to a few soldiers. Its hard to tell the good guys from the bad guys and sometimes they are the same people depending on who is paying them today.

I carry one on my M4 as well. Most Marines I saw had ACOGS in country. Maybe you should send a letter to the moronic author of the original article and thank him or her for increasing the danger for your son and his fellow servicemen and women. This is a non-issue, and it seems not all the military ACOGs even have the verses on them.

Cobra6
01-24-2010, 21:13
Actually it says that church and state shall be separate in the constitution.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof .
Pat

I still don't see it - I only see that there is not an official "state religion"
I don't see any reference to separation of church and state - if you can show me the words, I would be grateful.

ArmoryDoc
01-24-2010, 21:42
Actually it says that church and state shall be separate in the constitution.

No, not in those words.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof .
Pat

I interpret that as "Congress shall remain indifferent". But then again, I'm no attorney so my opinion could be looked upon as too logical.

Kentak
01-24-2010, 22:47
I'm a very strong believer in the wisdom of separation of church/state as a principle for governance that respects individual liberty for all. Regardless of our Founding Father's personal beliefs, which were varied, I have little doubt they understood the inherent wisdom of that principle. They forged a Constitution that was purely secular in it's structure. Note that the only mention religion gets in the C, is a limitation on government--no establishment of (1A) and no religious test for office holders (Art VI, Sec 3).

Yet, this isn't a big deal to me. Putting the biblical reference on the sights was a private decision, not a government one. Maybe some in govt. knew about this, but chose not to make a big deal of it. Again, no problem, at least as far as I'm concerned. If government had specified the biblical references, that would be a completely different matter, and a legitimate Constitutional concern. Now that it *has* become generally know, it's wholly appropriate to ask Trijicon to remove the references on pending and future orders. If Trijicon wants to stick to their practice as a matter of principle and lose govt. business, that's up to then. But, giving up the codes doesn't mean they are less faithful, and shouldn't be framed that way. They are a patriotic enterprise that makes a great product to help our troops be effective and safe. So, let's get over this issue and move on with giving our troops the best we can and no less than they deserve.

Alaskapopo
01-24-2010, 22:59
No, not in those words.



I interpret that as "Congress shall remain indifferent". But then again, I'm no attorney so my opinion could be looked upon as too logical.

When it says congress shall pass no laws respecting religion nor prohibiting the practice of religion that means a separation of church and state. The government is to stay out of religious topics.
Pat

TACC GLOCK
01-24-2010, 23:04
Now I am not saying that your question is not a good one and I would not be happy if my son (dont have one)/ or best friend was a priority target because of a code on a weapon. But my question to yours would be how in GOD'S NAME would they be able to tell who has an evil ACOG or not? They would have to have a sniper's scope and be 20 yards away to have a chance to see it. That would be like saying "I only crash into cars that have a VIN number with 666 in it". How would I be able to see the VIN # on someone elses car while driving in mine?


I agree if "they" get close enough to read the "bible code" they have really big problems, and if they are that close I don't think they are picking out certain targets over others.

sonick808
01-25-2010, 01:00
i'm offended by the religious jihad used to justify murdering innocent civilians at home and abroad by muslim fanatics

I'm not happy Trijicon decided to fold on this, but it makes sense to assure the military have an uninterrupted flow of equipment. We all know there are people taht would put our troops at risk to pursue this non-issue.

Still don't like it though

Beware Owner
01-25-2010, 08:50
Can anyone tell me when/how/where the heck a jihadist gave a hoot about what's inscribed on the scope as much as he does the bullet that's being aimed at him? They already think this is a relgious thing, what difference does it make?

KalashniKEV
01-25-2010, 09:15
Can anyone tell me when/how/where the heck a jihadist gave a hoot about what's inscribed on the scope as much as he does the bullet that's being aimed at him? They already think this is a relgious thing, what difference does it make?

You are correct in that the insurgent is more concerned about the "foreign men with guns" stomping about their homeland and imposing their will than they are about the writing on an optic. They would honestly be more concerned with the religion inscribed on ID tags, since that reflects a personal choice of the individual soldier rather than something they were issued.

What makes the Trijicon issue a dangerous one is that it provides some small bit of evidence to the global community (of all critics of the GWOT) that there are religious kooks involved in the resourcing of the war.

Read FM 3-24. Understand that the populace is the main center of gravity in fighting a counterinsurgency. Everything else is a supporting effort.

Beware Owner
01-25-2010, 11:37
You are correct in that the insurgent is more concerned about the "foreign men with guns" stomping about their homeland and imposing their will than they are about the writing on an optic. They would honestly be more concerned with the religion inscribed on ID tags, since that reflects a personal choice of the individual soldier rather than something they were issued.

What makes the Trijicon issue a dangerous one is that it provides some small bit of evidence to the global community (of all critics of the GWOT) that there are religious kooks involved in the resourcing of the war.

Read FM 3-24. Understand that the populace is the main center of gravity in fighting a counterinsurgency. Everything else is a supporting effort.

The thing is that they already believe it's a religious thing, they wouldn't be trying to blow us up if they didn't. There are religious people in every country, and this is a privately owned company selling equipment to the country that is waging the war. It's akin to me buying an Iphone Touch and being accused of being a perv because I have a phone named Touch. I bought the thing because I thought it was the best product, not because of it's name.

Kentak
01-25-2010, 11:55
Damn, wonder if the civi versions will continue to have them, maybe as an option?

Just curious, what do you mean by "the civilian versions?" If I buy an ACOG, aren't I getting the same optic as the military?

KalashniKEV
01-25-2010, 12:43
The thing is that they already believe it's a religious thing, they wouldn't be trying to blow us up if they didn't.

Untrue... they hate us not for who we are but for what we do. Read "Imperial Hubris" by Michael Scheuer for clarity.


It's akin to me buying an Iphone Touch and being accused of being a perv because I have a phone named Touch.

That's a terrible analogy.

If you understood the nature of the conflict, you'd realize that it is more like a white guy running for office in a black neighborhood with a racist bumper sticker.

"It came with the car..."

Not conducive to Victory.

ArmoryDoc
01-25-2010, 17:40
When it says congress shall pass no laws respecting religion nor prohibiting the practice of religion that means a separation of church and state. The government is to stay out of religious topics.
Pat

And that would be the indifference that I refer to. :whistling:

Buildwonder
01-25-2010, 17:47
This whole thing has been blown out of proportion. The Biblical references all have one thing in common, in case no one noticed. They all make reference to "light". Sure they're religious, but I think they're to draw a parallel with the "light" in the sight and it's power to make it. Maybe I'm wrong, though. I'm unbelievably disappointed that a company as large as Trijicon would cave to such BS. I hate to say it, my fellow Americans.....we're losing. We're losing in a big way. It won't be long before both hands are firmly tied behind our backs. The world is waiting for this day, too. Just wait. We're on a very bad path. If you believe otherwise, you're a fool.

ArmoryDoc
01-25-2010, 17:53
This whole thing has been blown out of proportion. The Biblical references all have one thing in common, in case no one noticed. They all make reference to "light". Sure they're religious, but I think they're to draw a parallel with the "light" in the sight and it's power to make it. Maybe I'm wrong, though. I'm unbelievably disappointed that a company as large as Trijicon would cave to such BS. I hate to say it, my fellow Americans.....we're losing. We're losing in a big way. It won't be long before both hands are firmly tied behind our backs. The world is waiting for this day, too. Just wait. We're on a very bad path. If you believe otherwise, you're a fool.

YUP. I concur.

trainbrainmike
01-25-2010, 20:13
I still don't see it - I only see that there is not an official "state religion"
I don't see any reference to separation of church and state - if you can show me the words, I would be grateful.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You are correct Cobra6...and the reply by Alaskapopo is the usual poorly informed "government school" stuff taught in the last few decades.

There is a BIG difference between freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion.

Until the Earl Warren court, it wasn't even mentioned other than in Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists.

I am sure this will get flamed, but truth is truth. As to making the terrorists any madder than they are, it will take more than a scope to get them any more pissed off than they are now.

Alaskapopo
01-25-2010, 21:08
And that would be the indifference that I refer to. :whistling:

That indifference is a separation of church and state. The government can not encourage or discourage attending any religion nor combining it with government functions.

HAIL CAESAR
01-25-2010, 23:41
I was considering an ACOG vs. an Aimpoint w/magnifier. They just lost my business right there.

I'm a day late and a dollar short to this but...Don't let the door hit you in the behind! And while your at it, get the hell out of the USA and burn all your greenbacks at the border.

Furthermore, this is new news??

Openroadracer
01-26-2010, 01:53
PC freakin BS.

My dog tags had my religion on them as well. Is someone going to get all upset about that also.

sgtlmj
01-26-2010, 12:11
What secret codes? Those are universal biblical abbreviations. Kind of like abbreviating Saturday as Sat.

sgtlmj
01-26-2010, 12:11
PC freakin BS.

My dog tags had my religion on them as well. Is someone going to get all upset about that also.

The Gideons were always handing out pocket bibles when I was in. Are the troops banned from carrying bibles into combat now too?

KalashniKEV
01-26-2010, 13:06
The Gideons were always handing out pocket bibles when I was in. Are the troops banned from carrying bibles into combat now too?

Nope, you can get probably get any religious text you want from the Chaplain, Korans, Ghagavad Gitas... or whatever you want.

http://soldiersbibleministry.org/Portals/20/NIV-ACU_1.jpg

The issue comes from the fact that the Biblical references are not required by the contract, and create liability.

There is a Program Manager looking for a job right now, you can bet...

Kentak
01-26-2010, 16:06
I'm a day late and a dollar short to this but...Don't let the door hit you in the behind! And while your at it, get the hell out of the USA and burn all your greenbacks at the border.

Hail Caesar, indeed.

darrell
01-26-2010, 18:09
Been a Christian all my life and always respected all peoples right to worship who they wish. Most of the religions at least promote peace and compassion but the jihad muslims don't respect any of the others to exist! I really never heard much from muslims and then one day they attacked our great country and our politically correct vote sucking politicians have been catering to there every need and protecting there rights ever since at our expense.To hell with these murderous scum and the politicians who are so afraid they will offend them.We are and always have been a Christian country .We as Christians are under attack from within.

darrell
01-26-2010, 19:51
In my previous reply I was so wrapped up in expressing my anger I mistakenly typed the word "there" twice instead of the word "their", or was it a mistake.I do strongly support the Tea Party Movement , so maybe I am a stupid, illiterate redneck like the leftist socialist administration in the White House says!

HAIL CAESAR
01-26-2010, 22:29
Hail Caesar, indeed.

:wavey:

KalashniKEV
01-27-2010, 05:49
In my previous reply I was so wrapped up in expressing my anger I mistakenly typed the word "there" twice instead of the word "their", or was it a mistake.I do strongly support the Tea Party Movement , so maybe I am a stupid, illiterate redneck like the leftist socialist administration in the White House says!

You still seem like a bit of a kook, in all honesty.

The nature of this conflict is apparently lost on you as well...

remember911
01-28-2010, 20:09
Mine has it and no it's not for sale. GOD BLESS ALL

Bren
01-28-2010, 21:34
The Gideons were always handing out pocket bibles when I was in. Are the troops banned from carrying bibles into combat now too?

No, actually the Army hands out bibles with your unit patch and name right on the cover.

Beware Owner
01-29-2010, 11:54
Wouldn't it be nice to put a cross on the bullet tip? That'd be epic. :rofl:

faawrenchbndr
01-29-2010, 12:28
Wouldn't it be nice to put a cross on the bullet tip? That'd be epic. :rofl:

Yep,.....and fill that in with BACON! :supergrin:

Beware Owner
01-29-2010, 12:57
Yep,.....and fill that in with BACON! :supergrin:

Bacon Lube, hmmm....:rofl:

WOLVERINES!!!
03-11-2010, 16:39
So ? The next best thing would be to put a little pig blood in the propellant for all military rounds....:tongueout:

It don't bother me at all ![/quote]



TOTALLY AGREE. HOOAH!

WOLVERINES!!!
03-11-2010, 16:42
Why cant glock do that

Nestor
03-11-2010, 16:55
Why? What is wrong with them being christian and being proud of it.
Pat

Nothing wrong with it.
Be proud of yourself whatever your normal is.

glocked-up
03-11-2010, 21:57
Amazing how the media can overlook all of the things over the years that were against the constitution...but a reference to light is declared against the constitution?.....he should actually read the constitution the words seperation of church and state or relegion and government is nowhere in the constitution...simply says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.....seems that congress cant make any laws against relegion or the peoples practice of it...Doesnt seem to me that they were against relegion only wanting to prohibit the congress from being against it, thats why it says they cant make any laws against the establishment of relegion or the free exercise of it......only my opinion tho

Glock-it-to-me
03-13-2010, 07:03
I was all set on getting a Eotech XPS...now I'll have to squeeze some more pennies out each week to get the ACOG... :)


'Drew

I've got an EOTech 512 and a 4x ACOG for my DD M4. :cool:

glockin-45
06-02-2012, 14:43
You still seem like a bit of a kook, in all honesty.

The nature of this conflict is apparently lost on you as well...
What the truth hurts?:tongueout:

G21FAN
06-02-2012, 15:13
"Shot by Jesus rifles" LOL! :rofl:

BlackPaladin
06-02-2012, 16:07
Seconds, thirds, fourths, all spoken for, so whatever we are up to by count, I xx that. I want one with the markings. Monkeyfawker back there from page one, you are missing out, but I am sure that Trijicon is doing fine without you. Trijicon makes a fine product, some of us know that!

SWAMPTHANG
06-02-2012, 20:58
What if it makes your son a priority target over another soldier with an Aimpoint that is without the biblical reference?

What if it makes him a target by removing the markings honoring HIS maker? :steamed:

BlackPaladin
06-02-2012, 22:02
What if it makes your son a priority target over another soldier with an Aimpoint that is without the biblical reference?

It's a religious war for insurgents either way, you worried about hurt feelings between them and us:rofl: too late.

FatBoy
06-02-2012, 22:29
Run for the hills, ZOMBIE thread back from the dead.

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/halloween/zombie.gif

ricky
06-02-2012, 23:45
I bet if you put a giant rainbow on it and it was made by gays/lesbians and liberals and promoted by people like the socialist in office the government would mandate the purchase.

Funny how certain people forbid talk of Jesus yet they constantly feel the need to force the rainbow crap on us but it is ok.

Big Mad Dawg
06-03-2012, 03:57
Is there really anyone that is so ignorant to think that bible verses on a piece of equipment is going to make any difference to a terrorist? If you know anything about the religion of Islam they are taught to respect the Christians as the people of the book (bible) and in truth there are many similarities between the Koran, Bible and Torah than not. Do they think that Islam is the true religion? Yes but bible verse are not offensive to any Muslims.

Will the terrorist use this as propaganda tool yes are there people stupid enough to listen? Yes there the article and pressure to remove the verse are proof there are people that STUPID.

What makes our military targets? The same thing that makes the Taliban targets being on opposing sides of a conflict nothing more nothing less.

TrueGunNut
06-05-2012, 19:56
I love my TA44SG-1 1.5x with Bible verse!!! AMEN!

TangoFoxtrot
06-06-2012, 04:36
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So ? The next best thing would be to put a little pig blood in the propellant for all military rounds....:tongueout:

It don't bother me at all !

Actually they should incorperate it into the tip.

MadMonkey
06-06-2012, 04:42
Does Trijicon do this for civvie Acogs as well? Hoping my new one has it...

WoodenPlank
06-06-2012, 07:02
Does Trijicon do this for civvie Acogs as well? Hoping my new one has it...

I believe they dropped it completely after the stink that was raised over it.

faawrenchbndr
06-06-2012, 08:07
.......The next best thing would be to put a little pig blood in the propellant for all military rounds....
It don't bother me at all!

:cool:

econjon
06-09-2012, 22:50
I bought a ta01nsn a few weeks ago and it has the verse on it. I called Trijicon to find out the manufacture date and they said it was made in March 2012. I'd venture to guess they are still including it :cool:

I like that it's on there.

TangoFoxtrot
06-10-2012, 07:42
I bet if you put a giant rainbow on it and it was made by gays/lesbians and liberals and promoted by people like the socialist in office the government would mandate the purchase.

Funny how certain people forbid talk of Jesus yet they constantly feel the need to force the rainbow crap on us but it is ok.

Don't get so hung up on all that crap, your never going to stop it. Just separate yourself from it and live your life as you see fit.

SNH Glocks
06-10-2012, 20:15
I saw on the news were trijicon acog rifle scopes has bible codes printed on them on the base of the scope.

That's fine by me.

Airborne Infantryman
06-10-2012, 20:33
With all this talk of ACOGs, and Iraq/Afghanistan, I figured this pic was required-

(From my deployment to Iraq in 2007) :supergrin:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7074/7174925235_16fe72636c_b.jpg

bigmoney890
06-10-2012, 20:36
Awesome picture! How far out were you?

NeverMore1701
06-10-2012, 20:41
With all this talk of ACOGs, and Iraq/Afghanistan, I figured this pic was required-

(From my deployment to Iraq in 2007) :supergrin:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7074/7174925235_16fe72636c_b.jpg

*waits for someone to get uppity about assumed safety violation*

Airborne Infantryman
06-10-2012, 21:10
*waits for someone to get uppity about assumed safety violation*

:rofl:

FWIW, there was a round chambered in that pic as well.

I could give a damn less. I'd have pulled the trigger on all 3 in that picture if I could have.

I'm still sure, that to this day, those 3 were the ones spotting for the Mortar crew that ****ed us up on a daily basis. They were the only *******s that just sat there while our patrol base was getting ****ed up. Everyone else in the area ran away except for them. They would just watch, and just so happen to be on their cell phone.

Its one of those things that if you've been there and served in a combat capacity, your compassion for these people would be non-existent.

NeverMore1701
06-10-2012, 21:15
:rofl:

FWIW, there was a round chambered in that pic as well.

I could give a damn less. I'd have pulled the trigger on all 3 in that picture if I could have.

I'm still sure, that to this day, those 3 were the ones spotting for the Mortar crew that ****ed us up on a daily basis. They were the only *******s that just sat there while our patrol base was getting ****ed up. Everyone else in the area ran away except for them. They would just watch, and just so happen to be on their cell phone.

Its one of those things that if you've been there and served in a combat capacity, your compassion for these people would be non-existent.

Someone who has watched every Magpul DVD TWICE will surely be along soon....

:rofl:

Airborne Infantryman
06-10-2012, 21:21
Someone who has watched every Magpul DVD TWICE will surely be along soon....

:rofl:

I'm sure they will. :faint:

Cole125
06-10-2012, 21:47
Wow cool photo, thanks for sharing.

Hopefully nobody gets butt hurt about it...

captdreifus
06-13-2012, 02:37
*waits for someone to get uppity about assumed safety violation*


Thats not safe.
















Too bad he didn't sneeze (AI) :tongueout::tongueout::rofl::rofl:

TheBelly
06-13-2012, 03:05
Its one of those things that if you've been there and served in a combat capacity, your compassion for these people would be non-existent.

+5

Hard for the DVD watching types to understand what happens when shooting starts...

MadMonkey
06-13-2012, 03:41
Someone who has watched every Magpul DVD TWICE will surely be along soon....

:rofl:

Here I am!


....not seeing the issue though :whistling:

Airborne Infantryman
06-13-2012, 06:25
Here I am!


....not seeing the issue though :whistling:

:rofl:

Love the avatar. Derp-a-derp! :supergrin:

pag23
06-13-2012, 06:34
AI-- more power to you to keep you and your fellow soldiers safe...

What distance were they?

Airborne Infantryman
06-13-2012, 14:24
AI-- more power to you to keep you and your fellow soldiers safe...

What distance were they?

I honestly don't remember, however, judging by the stadia lines on the ACOG, they were around 100-150 meters away from our position.

AngryPanda
06-14-2012, 09:15
What the truth hurts?:tongueout:

Did you really dig up a two year old post just to say that?

WoodenPlank
06-14-2012, 13:11
Did you really dig up a two year old post just to say that?

This thread got necro'd about a week ago, it's just been hanging out for a bit before someone gives it the ol' pickaxe to the brain.

DScottHewitt
06-18-2012, 10:19
THHRJK RHLASJFDOUEWFND DNU wun oqfn owqemcolwqem cm

ricky
06-18-2012, 11:10
THHRJK RHLASJFDOUEWFND DNU wun oqfn owqemcolwqem cm

Are Sure about that?