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Broiler Monster
01-20-2010, 09:06
I know you all would rather argue 45 vs 9mm but... Kel Tec has come out with a new 30 round 22 mag semi auto pistol. Sounds like a lot of fun. But what's the scoop on the 22 mag round for self defense?

Broiler Monster
01-20-2010, 09:12
Here's a link to Kel Tec's PMR-30 if you want to check it out. http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/pmr30.htm

Bilbo Bagins
01-20-2010, 09:40
.22wmr will easily penetrate 12" of ballistics gel out of a handgun. So you have tiny bullets that have the penetration to reach the vital, but tiny bullets make tiny holes, which mean slower bleed out time if you miss those vitals. Hollowpoint will not expand, however the bullet does tumble and yaw, creating a larger wound cavity which may be helpful.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1504.htm

If this PMR30 proves to be very reliable, I would say yes it makes a fantastic Self Defense weapon. I think the 30 round capacity makes up for lack in stopping power.

9jeeps
01-20-2010, 10:05
I've a Taurus Ultra-Lite 22 mag snub as a house/ranch/snake shooter. Never have felt under gunned in my area. Besides it's a kick to plink with.

I like Kel-Tec. May look into that new PMR30....

thegriz18
01-20-2010, 10:19
If that PMR-30 isn't the ugliest gun I've ever seen.... But 22 Mag, I think someone should design a bullet for SD and see how it works. I think it would make a decent BUG. 5 shots of .38 or 8 shots of 22 Mag? Debatable. I have a feeling the PMR-30 will be more of a range toy. The gun is as tall as an XD-M.

mclaren
01-20-2010, 10:48
.22wmr will easily penetrate 12" of ballistics gel out of a handgun. So you have tiny bullets that have the penetration to reach the vital, but tiny bullets make tiny holes, which mean slower bleed out time if you miss those vitals. Hollowpoint will not expand, however the bullet does tumble and yaw, creating a larger wound cavity which may be helpful.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1504.htm

If this PMR30 proves to be very reliable, I would say yes it makes a fantastic Self Defense weapon. I think the 30 round capacity makes up for lack in stopping power.

i have never witnessed .22 hollow point expansion until recently. i was always under the impression that it just aided in some mild deformation or fragmentation.
I just tested some CCI Mini Mag hollow points. I shot them through jugs of water. I realize this isnt gel or tissue but it has expanded all other calibers comparably to the other highly regarded mediums. so to me the water jug test is worth something.
These bullets expanded perfectly to just over 9 mm. I was blown away. This was out of a rifle so velocities were more than pistol.
There is a great variety of ammo in .22 mag. I believe some of them could perform exceptionally. Through barriers though, probably not.

This is a very exciting gun to me. I dont think I would ever carry it for defense but its a great concept. Reminds me of the Five Seven.

Can't wait to see a review.

HAMMERHEAD
01-20-2010, 11:57
This was out of a rifle so velocities were more than pistol.

.22WMR (Winchester Magnum Rifle)

If this PMR30 proves to be very reliable, I would say yes it makes a fantastic Self Defense weapon. I think the 30 round capacity makes up for lack in stopping power.

If you have time to dump 30 rounds into your target. I suppose it would be like stabbing someone with a dart, eventually it will start to hurt.

Blitzer
01-20-2010, 12:00
I would only if I had no OTHER choices. :shocked::whistling:

Blitzer
01-20-2010, 12:01
i have never witnessed .22 hollow point expansion until recently. i was always under the impression that it just aided in some mild deformation or fragmentation.
I just tested some CCI Mini Mag hollow points. I shot them through jugs of water. I realize this isnt gel or tissue but it has expanded all other calibers comparably to the other highly regarded mediums. so to me the water jug test is worth something.
These bullets expanded perfectly to just over 9 mm. I was blown away. This was out of a rifle so velocities were more than pistol.
There is a great variety of ammo in .22 mag. I believe some of them could perform exceptionally. Through barriers though, probably not.

This is a very exciting gun to me. I dont think I would ever carry it for defense but its a great concept. Reminds me of the Five Seven.

Can't wait to see a review.

Like you said it ain't flesh and bone. :wow:

mclaren
01-20-2010, 12:55
By the way CCI Mini Mags are .22 lr. The Maxi Mags are the .22 WMR.
For what its worth HAMMERHEAD, WMR stands for Winchester Magnum Rimfire, not Rifle. LR is Long Rifle, maybe thats where you are confused.
Plus there are currently short barrel firearms chambered in .22 WMR. Lots of revolvers from many different manufacturers. Same for .22 LR, available in many rifles and pistols. so Im not really sure the reason for the quote.
I mentioned that it was from a rifle to say that the higher velocity of the .22 LR in my long barrel may compare to the .22 WMR out of a short barrel. Otherwise it wouldn't be a fair comparison. Though it still may not be.
These 9 mm diameter expanded bullets I have look a little more painful than a dart for sure.
I am aware that these rimfire rounds are pretty low power and barely enough for SD.
I can't back this up but I bet the .22 rimfire's historical body count is much higher than most think.

As a side note how about aPMR-30/17. Its a pretty natural next step to .17HMR. Now that would be interesting

thegriz18
01-20-2010, 13:19
I can't back this up but I bet the .22 rimfire's historical body count is much higher than most think.

I do believe that .22lr claims more lives than any other caliber in America. I don't have a cite to back this up, but that's been the running rumor for years. IMO, it would make sense. Cheap, easy to find, easy to shoot, plus a lot of people treat .22lr like a toy.

Broiler Monster
01-20-2010, 13:25
I'm glad to get this discussion going. I've seen 22 wmr/magnum handguns in the past but have never really considered their effectiveness as a self defense gun. 30 rounds? Sounds cool. This gun weighs less than 20 ounces loaded. More fun than all the 9mmvs 45 acp threads anyway.

HAMMERHEAD
01-20-2010, 14:02
For what its worth HAMMERHEAD, WMR stands for Winchester Magnum Rimfire, not Rifle. LR is Long Rifle, maybe thats where you are confused.
I'll double check, but I'm pretty sure it's rifle.


I'll take a G-19 and fifteen rounds of Gold Dots.

HAMMERHEAD
01-20-2010, 14:06
.22 Winchester Magnum Rifle ammo at Midway (http://www.midwayusa.com:80/browse/BrowseCategories.aspx?TabID=3&Categoryid=10019&categorystring=653***7547***)
Some places do list it as the magnum rimfire, but I'm pretty sure the original name is Winchester Magnum Rifle, rimfire is a common error.

LarryD1130
01-20-2010, 14:22
I have a NAA 22 mag mini-revolver. It's the smallest gun I own so I take it with me when I need a really concealable gun. It's not the biggest caliber but that little thing is so loud and at close range I feel safe when I have it. It's better than nothing. I was just on the Kel-Tec website because my friend just bought a P11 from a pawn shop and I wanted to check it out and I saw the gun you mentioned. I have a .22 mag because it's small. I know 30 rounds in a handgun is cool but I wouldn't carry that.

DEADEYEGUY
01-20-2010, 15:24
Just thought I'd throw this in. Bill Jordan thought a J-frame .22 Mag. made a great back up weapon. Said it did damage way out of proportion to it's size. Just thought it interesting.

RMTactical
01-20-2010, 15:34
It wouldn't be my first choice. That said, there is no substitute for shot placement.

481
01-20-2010, 15:36
I suppose that it beats a set of car keys.

In a weapon of similar size and length, the .22 Magnum offers nothing in the way of performance that the commonly available service calibers don't.

Given the much superior reliability of centerfire primers over that of rimfire priming, the better choice becomes apparent.

There are better choices.

mclaren
01-20-2010, 15:53
.22 Winchester Magnum Rifle ammo at Midway (http://www.midwayusa.com:80/browse/BrowseCategories.aspx?TabID=3&Categoryid=10019&categorystring=653***7547***)
Some places do list it as the magnum rimfire, but I'm pretty sure the original name is Winchester Magnum Rifle, rimfire is a common error.

Who knows. I have never heard it called that. Every source I have seen says Rimfire. I guess Winchester would be the best source to answer that question. I would really like to know which is right.

TwinFourFives
01-20-2010, 18:08
22 mag would be good so long as you use reliable ammo. Thing about the rimfires is they tend not to go bang as reliably as centerfires. As for the potency of the round, 22 mag should be alright. You hit someone right in the heart with a 22 mag, it'll stop em faster than a .45 that misses the heart by an inch (and doesnt hit something like the cns). There aught to be some good enough 22 mag rounds as far as penetration of ribs but i dont know for sure if theyd pass through a rib and stay on the intended path like a heavier round. Probably will most of the time.

srt-4_jon
01-20-2010, 18:13
As a side note how about aPMR-30/17. Its a pretty natural next step to .17HMR. Now that would be interesting
Look at the problems 17HMR is having with semi-auto guns and you will see they probably wont do that.

Berto
01-20-2010, 18:55
.22WMR handgun is really about the same as .22lr from a rifle....with rimfire ignition reliability. Think revolver if you're set on .22mag for defense.

HAMMERHEAD
01-20-2010, 20:00
Who knows. I have never heard it called that. Every source I have seen says Rimfire. I guess Winchester would be the best source to answer that question. I would really like to know which is right.

'Rifle' used to be much more common, but sometimes common errors end up being the standard, and I see more 'rimfire' than 'rifle' these days. I've been shooting the .22WMR for about fifteen years and the lingo seems to be changing.
Wikipedia, Gunblast and others just assume it's 'rimfire'. Heck, Gunblast even mixes up .22 WRF and .22 WMR, two very different rounds.
I think because it is magnum, rimfire ammo, it gets called that, either that or I'm wrong altogether.

I.Hate.Glocks.
01-20-2010, 20:42
It would be neat to have a Beretta 21 available in .22 magnum!

fredj338
01-20-2010, 21:19
I do believe that .22lr claims more lives than any other caliber in America. I don't have a cite to back this up, but that's been the running rumor for years. IMO, it would make sense. Cheap, easy to find, easy to shoot, plus a lot of people treat .22lr like a toy.
Killing & stopping a fight are two totqlly diff things. Yes, the 22mag will kill, but unless you hit CNS, it will not likely stop or even deter an agressive attack. Small bullet, small wound profile, zero shock effect on impact. Hell, they don't impress large jackrabbits unless CNS is hit.:dunno: A 5shot J-frame packs the same size as one in 22mag w/ a lot more potential as a fight stopper.

glock20c10mm
01-20-2010, 21:53
Given the much superior reliability of centerfire primers over that of rimfire priming, the better choice becomes apparent.
I wonder if that's as/is true of the 22WMR(imfire) compared to the 22LR.

I've launched +3000 rounds of 22WMR from various manufacturers and not a single one has EVER failed to fire.

Can't say the same by any strech of the 22LR I've shot up.

I wonder if it's because there's more primer mixture in a 22Mag case, or, a different mixture alltogether?

Not that +3000 rounds is much in the big scheme of things (still a good start), but maybe others can comment on their experience with 22WMR in direct reguard to going bang or not.


Good Shooting,
Craig

481
01-20-2010, 22:03
I wonder if that's as/is true of the 22WMR(imfire) compared to the 22LR.

I've launched +3000 rounds of 22WMR from various manufacturers and not a single one has EVER failed to fire.

Can't say the same by any strech of the 22LR I've shot up.

I wonder if it's because there's more primer mixture in a 22Mag case, or, a different mixture alltogether?

Not that +3000 rounds is much in the big scheme of things (still a good start), but maybe others can comment on their experience with 22WMR in direct reguard to going bang or not.


Good Shooting,
Craig


I'd just as soon not quibble with you over your "perceptions"..

mitchshrader
01-20-2010, 23:12
I've never approached 3000 rounds of rimfire consecutively without any FTF or FTE. I've had three hundred shot strings, but not three thousand for SURE.

If .22 magnum will approach centerfire for reliability then it certainly is worth considering for self defense. I'd also expect a revolver would make more sense than a semi auto, as it's simpler and tolerates operator error more safely (IMO). An 8 shot .22 mag J frame with a 4" barrel would make a dandy little granny gun.

Brucev
01-21-2010, 06:20
My first experience with the .22 WMR was in 1980 using a Ruger Single-Six. Across the years I've never had a FTF of any sort with any WMR ammo fired from either revolver or rifle. New developments with the .22 WMR make it a very significant round for hunting. A semi-automatic pistol that would offer a high degree of reliable function and a high capacity would be very much worth consideration. With polymer tipped jacketed bullets, the WMR would certainly offer significant expansion that, at typical pistol ranges, would make it effective for SD/HD. It might not offer the same level of panache as the much hyped FN 5.7, but it would be effective. JMHO. Sincerely. Brucev.

Bilbo Bagins
01-21-2010, 07:43
Yea I can say I never had an ammo related issue with a .22mag, however I can say the same thing about using CCI .22lr ammo. Its when you play with the .22lr bulk packs you see issues.

Berto
01-21-2010, 11:09
I've had duds from .22mag from both CCI and PMC in the NAA mini and Ruger Single Six.
Most folks assume lr to be less reliable, but consider how often most shoot .22mag.

I've seen one dud in my life with centerfire ammo (crappy American Ammo .38sp), I've had hundreds in rimfire.

method
01-21-2010, 12:35
I've never, ever seen the R in WMR referred to as 'Rifle'.

If a PMR-30 proved reliable, I'd feel very well armed with one.

mossy500camo
01-21-2010, 14:45
I know you all would rather argue 45 vs 9mm but... Kel Tec has come out with a new 30 round 22 mag semi auto pistol. Sounds like a lot of fun. But what's the scoop on the 22 mag round for self defense?

To tell the truth I wouldnt be afraid to carry a .22 mag in a revolver. 6in barrel.

Broiler Monster
01-21-2010, 17:11
The more We discuss the 22 mag as a defensive round the more I want a PMR-30.

Catswold
01-21-2010, 17:13
Wouldn't be my first choice, but it beats a sharp stick. I prefer big, heavy, and slow or big, heavy, and fast.

P.S. Ever heard of the FN Five-Seven? There you go...sort of.

Ak.Hiker
01-21-2010, 21:49
I would wait a bit to see how reliable the new 22 Magnum Kel Tec is before I would carry it for SD. The 22 Magnum is a deadly little round though. In a revolver like the Single Six it is a good choice for the outdoorsman. Not sure how reliable it would be in a semi auto.

9mm +p+
01-22-2010, 00:15
I'll double check, but I'm pretty sure it's rifle.


I'll take a G-19 and fifteen rounds of Gold Dots.

Ummm, you need to get your facts straight, it's Winchester Magnum Rimfire. Has been since it was introduced, never been magnum rifle :upeyes: I've got the old 22mag weps and ammo boxes to prove it.

m44u
01-22-2010, 07:39
The 22 mag is a fine cartridge, I would not want to get shot with it. I use it around the home for pest control. Armadillos tearing up the yard, coons in the garbage etc. But that being said the 22 mag is a rimfire and the likley hood of a misfire is high. I know that centerfires have misfires to, but with rimfires it's much more likley. I personally have never had a misfire with mine. I use it in a Marlin bolt action. But it's not my primary home defense caliber. If you decide to use it buy the very best ammo you can and test it out. You have to have confidence in it. After all it's your life on the line.

glock20c10mm
01-22-2010, 14:08
The 22 mag is a rimfire and the likley hood of a misfire is high..... I personally have never had a misfire with mine.
Do you think "high" may be a bit strong of a word? :shocked: I do! :supergrin: Besides that you've never experienced it, and nor have I in over 3000 rounds from various manufacturers. :headshake:

m44u
01-22-2010, 15:22
Hey bub, I was just making a comment to help the guy out. although I've never had a misfire I know others that have. I'm just stating that I wouldn't trust one for personnel protection. You do what you want. If high is to strong word then let me rephrase it. Rimfires are much more likley to go snap than a centerfire. Is that better:rofl:

ssilvestro
01-22-2010, 22:38
'Rifle' used to be much more common, but sometimes common errors end up being the standard, and I see more 'rimfire' than 'rifle' these days. I've been shooting the .22WMR for about fifteen years and the lingo seems to be changing.
Wikipedia, Gunblast and others just assume it's 'rimfire'. Heck, Gunblast even mixes up .22 WRF and .22 WMR, two very different rounds.
I think because it is magnum, rimfire ammo, it gets called that, either that or I'm wrong altogether.

Look at all the citations in the References section at the bottom of the Wiki article. They're from books, and the ones that actually spell it out, say "Rimfire":

2. ^ a b c d Barnes 1972, p.275, ".22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire".

5. ^ Barnes 1972, p.275, ".22 Winchester Rimfire".
6. ^ Barnes, p.275, ".22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire".
7. ^ Barnes 1972, p.275, ".22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire".

9. ^ "Remington Magnum Rimfire: 22 Win Mag PR22M1 33-grain AccuTip-V". Remington Arms Company, Inc.. http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/rimfire/magnum_rimfire.asp. Retrieved 2008-06-17.

* Barnes, Frank C., ed. by John T. Amber. ".22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire", in Cartridges of the World, pp. 275. Northfield, IL: DBI Books, 1972. ISBN 0-695-80326-3.

Not a one says "rifle," just FYI...

Broiler Monster
01-24-2010, 09:27
It doesn't matter to me what the round is technically called. I want to know if 30 rounds of 22 mag in the Kel Tec PMR-30 will make a good self defense weapon. that's all.

481
01-24-2010, 11:47
It doesn't matter to me what the round is technically called. I want to know if 30 rounds of 22 mag in the Kel Tec PMR-30 will make a good self defense weapon. that's all.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14585883&postcount=18

Broiler Monster
01-24-2010, 12:04
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14585883&postcount=18

You're a d@#k

481
01-24-2010, 12:12
You're a d@#k

Well, that was uncalled for. Such anger. :shakehead:

c5367
01-24-2010, 12:17
pretty neat. I wouldn't hesitate to use one.

single shot "stopping power" is all well and good, but that thing seems like it would be quite good for delivering very accurate, high volume of fire in a very short time period.

From what I've seen at local steel matches and such, the 22 guys usually have significantly quicker times than the production/ESP/Limited10 guys. Yeah, it's competition and I"m sure many are going to say its totally different and has absolutely nothing to do with the real world and bla bla bla. I don't agree, and we can leave it at that.

(says the guy carrying a G20 w/ full power doubletap :supergrin: )

glock20c10mm
01-24-2010, 12:20
I want to know if 30 rounds of 22 mag in the Kel Tec PMR-30 will make a good self defense weapon. that's all.
Bottomline, it's gonna depend on your definition of good.

Is 22MagRIMFIRE good? I suppose so. With a 40gr bullet that isn't designed to fragment on a gopher, it will probably reach the vitals of a BG, assuming an unobstructed hit, the vast majority of the time. Obviously anyone can continue to argue small holes and such, blah blah blah.

Here's my problem with the idea as a whole. The PMR-30 itself! If you're going go carry a gun that big, you can easily get a 9mm with relatively high round count, which is a FAR better round to begin with. Look at the dimensions of that PMR-30. What a STUPID way to design it IMO! Waaaaaaaaay too big, EVEN WITH the 30 round capacity.

BUT, it's up to you.


Good Shooting,
Craig

bdcochran
01-26-2010, 12:45
The round is fine. At 100 yards, the terminal ballistics are fine.

A person's skill level is the deciding factor when using this or any other cartridge.

I work on Ruger 10/22 .22win mag rifles and make them reliable. You can obtain ping pong ball accuracy with the standard barrel and Leupold optics at 100 yards, using USMC sniper scout prone supported position.

People went on to make comments comparing cartridges. Why? All it does is cause a thread to devolve into name calling.

Skill level and an understanding of ballistics is more critical.

Elmer Keith could shoot 600 yards with a .357 in the 1930s and you can do the same today. You can shoot your Glock 9, 40 or .45acp accurately 100, 200, and 300 yards. You can also shoot slugs accurately out of a 12ga shotgun 200 yards on steel.

On the Kel-Tec product. If you have no experience with it, simply denigrating the design or capacity is not informative.

Bilbo Bagins
01-26-2010, 14:19
Bottomline, it's gonna depend on your definition of good.

Is 22MagRIMFIRE good? I suppose so. With a 40gr bullet that isn't designed to fragment on a gopher, it will probably reach the vitals of a BG, assuming an unobstructed hit, the vast majority of the time. Obviously anyone can continue to argue small holes and such, blah blah blah.

Here's my problem with the idea as a whole. The PMR-30 itself! If you're going go carry a gun that big, you can easily get a 9mm with relatively high round count, which is a FAR better round to begin with. Look at the dimensions of that PMR-30. What a STUPID way to design it IMO! Waaaaaaaaay too big, EVEN WITH the 30 round capacity.

BUT, it's up to you.


Good Shooting,
Craig

I really don't understand that comment. Its suppose to be a poor mans FN Five-seven and its smaller than that gun. I never heard anyone complain about the size of the Fiveseven. The PMR30 is the same size as a Sig 229 9mm, but its almost 1/3 the weight and double the capacity.

Just becuase its a rimfire, why does it need to be smaller ???

My Ruger MKIII standard is bigger.

unit1069
01-26-2010, 17:54
The Kel-Tec .22 WMR looks like a real fun pistol to take for a day of target shooting or varmint eradication but for self-defense purposes I don't think it's the best choice.

Would you prefer having 30 rounds of .22 WMR over 15 rounds of 9mm against a wild boar? I wouldn't.

JerryO
01-26-2010, 22:19
The Kel-Tec .22 WMR looks like a real fun pistol to take for a day of target shooting or varmint eradication but for self-defense purposes I don't think it's the best choice.

Would you prefer having 30 rounds of .22 WMR over 15 rounds of 9mm against a wild boar? I wouldn't.


For me, I would take the 9mm.

But for my wife (ie. a 68 year old lady), the .22 magnum sounds like the right choice.


JerryO

Bilbo Bagins
01-27-2010, 06:51
The Kel-Tec .22 WMR looks like a real fun pistol to take for a day of target shooting or varmint eradication but for self-defense purposes I don't think it's the best choice.

Would you prefer having 30 rounds of .22 WMR over 15 rounds of 9mm against a wild boar? I wouldn't.

I rather have a .44 mag revolver against wild boar than a 9mm, but I rather have a reliable 30 round .22mag than a revolver if I was defending myself in a home invasion or against rioters who want you dead. Every weapon has its strengths and weaknesses.

Also like JerryO said, this gun may be perfect for somone who cannot handle recoil well. In a SHTF situation, I think the PMR30 would be great for my wife and daughters. They know how to shoot but mostly shot .22lr and they don't handle centerfire caliber too well. This way they have something with low recoil and a massive amount of capacity to keep head down until the calvary arrives.

bdcochran
01-27-2010, 07:49
"Would you prefer having 30 rounds of .22 WMR over 15 rounds of 9mm against a wild boar? I wouldn't."

1. there aren't any true wild boars in my neighborhood.
2. there are plenty of people bores who are the size of boars.
3. people are thin skinned (and some are pric--s). Conversely, a bore is thick skinned.
4. Bores and boars share the same small brains.
5. Bores and boars do charge ahead in the same way.

I am going to wait. The history of firearms is filled with guns and magazines that do not work. I will not rely upon gun magazine writers. To paraphrase Will Rogers - they have never met a gun that they didn't like. For example, the .22 win mag AMT semi auto pistol is a great concept. I just relate to you that every magazine must be fitted to the specific gun. You can also buy a Volq. high cap .22 win mag magazine for under $100. Just be prepared to work on them to make them work in your firearm (tech support is just a phone call away to tell you how to do it yourself).
_________

unit1069
01-27-2010, 07:50
I rather have a .44 mag revolver against wild boar than a 9mm, but I rather have a reliable 30 round .22mag than a revolver if I was defending myself in a home invasion or against rioters who want you dead. Every weapon has its strengths and weaknesses.

Of course, but both .44 Magnum and 9mm are powerful enough to quickly stop a wild boar, Rock the Biker Dude, and an assortment of other human threats to life and limb. For a home invasion I'd still rather have 15 rounds of 9mm than .22 WMR. And I don't remember the last time I read of a riot in this country so I don't count that as a realistic threat.

Also like JerryO said, this gun may be perfect for somone who cannot handle recoil well. In a SHTF situation, I think the PMR30 would be great for my wife and daughters. They know how to shoot but mostly shot .22lr and they don't handle centerfire caliber too well. This way they have something with low recoil and a massive amount of capacity to keep head down until the calvary arrives.

I think this is a very good point and would certainly recommend the .22 WMR over 9mm for that particular situation.

glock20c10mm
01-27-2010, 18:56
I really don't understand that comment. Its suppose to be a poor mans FN Five-seven and its smaller than that gun. I never heard anyone complain about the size of the Fiveseven. The PMR30 is the same size as a Sig 229 9mm, but its almost 1/3 the weight and double the capacity.

Just becuase its a rimfire, why does it need to be smaller ???

My Ruger MKIII standard is bigger.
I do not put it anywhere near the class of the FN Five-Seven.

That you really don't understand my comment is even more puzzling to me. I explained it quite well and you practically said it in your own post I quoted you on. Did you miss where I said; If you're going go carry a gun that big, you can easily get a 9mm with relatively high round count, which is a FAR better round to begin with.

Ak.Hiker
01-28-2010, 00:03
If you have any old gun magazines around look at the covers with pictures of all of the latest greatest new guns on the market. Then check out how many of the latest greatest are still on the market.