Double Tap 200gr. ammo is not loaded with 200gr. bullets!!!! [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Tmygun
01-23-2010, 23:54
I was commenting in another thread about my disappointment that Double Tap exchanged the Hornady 200gr. XTP for the Montana Gold bullets in their 10mm ammo. So imagine my surprise when I pulled down one of the cartridges to weigh the bullet and found it to only weigh 180grs.!!!! It is a 180gr. Montana Gold bullet loaded with 8.2grs of what appears to be a flattened ball type powder.
Double Tap is going to hear about this.

Tmygun

PATRICE
01-24-2010, 19:52
.....

RyeDaddy
01-24-2010, 20:58
Hhmmm...well, I empathize with you. Indeed DT should hear about this...but, good luck in hearing back from them. Best wishes/best of luck.--Patrice

For real.

Tmygun
01-24-2010, 21:56
Well, I have my complaint in by email. If I don't hear for a while, I'll follow up with a phone call. At least I'm only a target shooter, but this just isn't right for all of the hunters that buy this ammo thinking that they're getting true Hornady 200gr. XTP ammo for possible backup against dangerous game, and they're getting 180gr.ammo with a bullet of questionable reliability for penetration. I've always heard MG bullets are excellent for target work, but I've heard several reports of jacket seperation and overpenetration for defense use.
This was my very first box of Doubole Tap ammo that I've ever bought, their response will determine if it's my last.

Tmygun

TheChosenOne
01-24-2010, 21:58
Seems like this is becoming more and more common for DT.

Blitzer
01-24-2010, 22:25
Well, I have my complaint in by email. If I don't hear for a while, I'll follow up with a phone call. At least I'm only a target shooter, but this just isn't right for all of the hunters that buy this ammo thinking that they're getting true Hornady 200gr. XTP ammo for possible backup against dangerous game, and they're getting 180gr.ammo with a bullet of questionable reliability for penetration. I've always heard MG bullets are excellent for target work, but I've heard several reports of jacket seperation and overpenetration for defense use.
This was my very first box of Doubole Tap ammo that I've ever bought, their response will determine if it's my last.

Tmygun

After speaking to those in the know: a letter would scream for attention more than emails or phone calls. ;)

thegriz18
01-24-2010, 22:55
I guess this seals their fate in my book. Way too many negative comments.

remat
01-25-2010, 20:26
Out of curiosity, why did you pull the bullet? And did you pull one bullet or bullets (title says bullets). Are you saying it was a fluke or that they all are?

Pics would help too.

Tmygun
01-25-2010, 23:33
I noticed first when I held a loose/unloaded 180gr. MG bullet next to a loaded DT case. I could see from the bulge in the case, where the base of the bullet stops, that it was the same length bullet. I next went to the Montana Gold website and checked out the bullet weights for 40/10mm bullets. It turns out that they make a 200gr. FMJ, but the JHP only goes to 180grs.
You already know what happened when I pulled one to check. I wish others here would pull and weigh some of the same ammo, just to confirm. But since MG doesn't make a 200gr. JHP in 10mm, I'm pretty sure what they're going to find.
I will post pics of another pulled DT.

Tmygun

Tmygun
01-26-2010, 00:30
I took some pics of a second round I pulled. The 1st pic is the ammo itself. The 2nd pic is a 500 piece bag of MG 180gr JHP bullets, showing one bullet. The 3rd pic is a loose bullet from the bag placed next to the loaded DT cartridge. The 4th pic is the pulled bullet from the DT ammo. The 5th pic is the MG bullet from the DT cartridge being weighed.
They are 180gr. bullets people.
And I couldn't have gotten boxes mixed up, because this is the one and only box I've ever purchased from Double Tap.

Tmygun

MSgt Dotson
01-26-2010, 05:49
Switching to 180 gr bullets *would* indeed make it easier to reach that 1200 fps goal! :)

But putting MG bulets in any loads other than target/plinking is a waste of time...

ChaneyD
01-26-2010, 06:23
I was commenting in another thread about my disappointment that Double Tap exchanged the Hornady 200gr. XTP for the Montana Gold bullets in their 10mm ammo. So imagine my surprise when I pulled down one of the cartridges to weigh the bullet and found it to only weigh 180grs.!!!! It is a 180gr. Montana Gold bullet loaded with 8.2grs of what appears to be a flattened ball type powder.
Double Tap is going to hear about this.

Tmygun

Another reason I don't/won't buy from them anymore.

glocksterr
01-26-2010, 07:00
busted!

they cant git' nothin' by y0u.

:)

Tmygun
01-26-2010, 13:08
Well, I have email #2 on it's way. I think I'll send a fax next. This isn't about getting a fefund or another box of ammo, this is about DT stepping up to the plate and at least acknowledging that they made a mistake.
I told them that this is a serious error and could be a danger to people buying this ammo as backup against bears or something (since we don't know how MG bullets perform against such animals the way XTP's do). I told them that I'm just a target shooter, but still, I would like to get what I paid for.
I guess we'll see.

Tmygun

remat
01-26-2010, 13:58
I appreciate you taking the time to post the pics.
I am curious to see what they say. Check your p.m.'s...

the iceman
01-27-2010, 16:32
This isn't good. All of the negative complaints about Double Tap and their lack of customer service/owning up has me questioning if I should spend another penny there.

c5367
01-27-2010, 16:38
wow....

Definitely not good.

Brass Nazi
01-27-2010, 17:29
What would be worse is if they put a 200gr bullet on top of a powder charge for a 180!

Tmygun
01-27-2010, 19:48
I still haven't heard a peep from Double Tap yet:whistling:.

Tmygun

KiloBravo
01-27-2010, 20:11
Wow...I hope that they do get on here and read this. Myself, now along with several others who have posted in this thread thus far will now never spend one penny there.

I have not yet made a purchase from them, and am very confident now that I will not be buying anything. There have been a ton of negative postings on their lack of service and delivering on what they promise to the customer.

That is too bad for them because I am going to make an order this weekend for a fair amount of ammo. (.380, .40, and .45) I guess I know now to place that order elsewhere.

KiloBravo
01-27-2010, 20:12
Forgot to add, thank you to the OP for sharing his experience. I hope they will fix the issue, but from what I heard, that is very doubtful.:whistling:

Bello
01-27-2010, 20:14
This isn't good. All of the negative complaints about Double Tap and their lack of customer service/owning up has me questioning if I should spend another penny there.


they really shafted my ass few months back, hit my screen name and read the post i posted about them pissed me off enough to never order from them again and ill agree again they have the worst customer service

KiloBravo
01-27-2010, 20:27
Okay...I just thought of another question.

I just went to view the website to see what kind of prices they are offering. $40 + shipping for a 50 round box of standard FMJ .45 ACP??? Are you kidding me?

I don't understand how anybody would think that is a fair price. Esp. for target ammo. They are out of their minds at that amount. Even at the local gun shops around here with slightly inflated prices, a 50 rd. box of .45 is between $20-$22.

That is just silly. :dunno:

G26S239
01-27-2010, 21:57
Wow...I hope that they do get on here and read this. Myself, now along with several others who have posted in this thread thus far will now never spend one penny there.
+1 I bought 180 grain 10mm Gold Dot when I had my Delta Elite and 180 grain 40s and 115 grain 9mms from them in the past but that was when they actually used Gold Dots.

glocknick
01-28-2010, 09:06
man this is the ammo i carry in my 29. maybe its time for me to look else where for carry ammo.

FlyBoy007
01-28-2010, 10:21
WTF!!

Has everyone lost all perspective?

Next to Toyota's little screw up this is monumental in proportion, why not give them a chance to make up for an oblivious mistake. Or should we just toss out the baby with the bathwater.

I only hope you are perfect in your life. :upeyes:


Lets see perhaps some snot nose after-school put the wrong poppers in the wrong box.

Or is this just the latest conspiracy to frost your flakes?:whistling:

Ak.Hiker
01-28-2010, 10:24
Okay...I just thought of another question.

I just went to view the website to see what kind of prices they are offering. $40 + shipping for a 50 round box of standard FMJ .45 ACP??? Are you kidding me?

I don't understand how anybody would think that is a fair price. Esp. for target ammo. They are out of their minds at that amount. Even at the local gun shops around here with slightly inflated prices, a 50 rd. box of .45 is between $20-$22.

That is just silly. :dunno:

They do not try to compete with typical ball plinking ammo in the 45 acp. Their 230 ball is more for the guy that has a 45 and needs a hard hitting deep penetration load. They do the same thing with the 38 Special. Their 158 grain Keith SWC load is a hardcast version of the FBI 158 grain LSWCHP loading. Not really a low end plinking load.

Ak.Hiker
01-28-2010, 10:30
+1 I bought 180 grain 10mm Gold Dot when I had my Delta Elite and 180 grain 40s and 115 grain 9mms from them in the past but that was when they actually used Gold Dots.
The bonded core loads are still loaded with the Gold Dot bullet.

G26S239
01-28-2010, 13:38
man this is the ammo i carry in my 29. maybe its time for me to look else where for carry ammo.Good idea.

The bonded core loads are still loaded with the Gold Dot bullet.
The 115 grain 9mm loads used in this test were not Gold Dots. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsGnDtgVHc0&feature=related

cowboywannabe
01-28-2010, 13:54
wow, just wow. i wonder what their response will be to you.

well, Winchester STHP is still available as far a commerical brand by a big company, but its only a mid power 10mm load, but its about the same price as the DT ammo delivered.....

B.B. is good full power stuff from what i hear but quite a bit more expensive, G.A. is good from what i hear but mid powered, and Cor-Bon is good but expensive and mid powered too.

why wont Norma give us a 180gr. full powered 10mm over here?

Tmygun
01-28-2010, 13:55
I gave up waiting to hear from DT, I shot some of the 180gr. mistake stuff today. It shoots well, but it still wasn't what I wanted. And it wasn't a matter of an after schooler putting the wrong ammo in the wrong box. There are others here that have the same ammo that's advertised as 200gr. JHP, and Montana Gold doesn't make 200gr. JHP bullets.
But I'm not bashing anyone, just revealing the facts.
I'll most likely handload my own ammo from now on anyway. I like my own loads better than anyone else's, and it's much cheaper to handload:supergrin:.

Tmygun

cowboywannabe
01-28-2010, 14:15
thats a shame that they havent responded to you.

harleyfx69
01-28-2010, 14:21
well they just lost a decent sized order from myself ..

i was looking to feed a 44 mag, 10mm, and and some 40's .. guess its time to look to buffalo bore

Ak.Hiker
01-28-2010, 14:33
Good idea.


The 115 grain 9mm loads used in this test were not Gold Dots. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsGnDtgVHc0&feature=related

I have never seen DT sell MG bullets as bonded. The loads listed as bonded are Gold Dots. MG does not make a bonded bullet. They make JHP and FMJ.

BadAndy
01-28-2010, 14:39
Did you try calling them?

Sending an email or fax is not the way to go about contacting someone that makes this kind of mistake.

glockfanbob
01-28-2010, 14:49
Send them another email with a link to this thread.:supergrin:

cmspeedy
01-28-2010, 15:12
Good luck calling. I've tried that route. Find a new ammo supplier guys...sorry.

Ammo is not the kind of product you can afford to make this kind of a screw up on. If an Alaskan had his G20 loaded with this loading and was charged by a pissed off bear, the bullet may or may not kill the bear - it is NOT A PREMIUM DEEP PENETRATING HOLLOWPOINT LIKE THE XTP - PERIOD!! and it is only 180g. It was not designed to do what the 200g XTP does.

Misrepresenting your product, bait & switch.....call it what you want - I call it unethical.

cowboywannabe
01-28-2010, 17:34
Good luck calling. I've tried that route. Find a new ammo supplier guys...sorry.

Ammo is not the kind of product you can afford to make this kind of a screw up on. If an Alaskan had his G20 loaded with this loading and was charged by a pissed off bear, the bullet may or may not kill the bear - it is NOT A PREMIUM DEEP PENETRATING HOLLOWPOINT LIKE THE XTP - PERIOD!! and it is only 180g. It was not designed to do what the 200g XTP does.

Misrepresenting your product, bait & switch.....call it what you want - I call it unethical.

i really dont think this was the case, i believe it was a matter of a mistake, not a calculated act i hope.

id feel a lot better if DT made this right with this buyer and explain how the mistake was made.....it could have been something as simple as the person putting the ammo in the wrong box....:dunno:

cmspeedy
01-28-2010, 17:55
That too is part of the problem - i have never gotten any response from Doubletap when I had problems. If you don't listen to your customers how can you preserve your reputation? They have ignored this for too long - I've been reading about the many problems and IMO they now have reached their boiling point.

Many will be turned off by the 10mm platform all together if they don't make this right.

I don't want that to happen, so Mike if your out there - show up and defend your name. Communication with your customers is key and I have bought a lot of ammo from you and DO NOT WANT THE 10mm COMMUNITY TO LOSE FAITH IN YOUR PRODUCT!!

JK-linux
01-28-2010, 18:18
Subscribed. I have several boxes of every 10mm load they were selling from back in May 2009. I think I may hold off on anymore this Spring until I hear something more from DT on this.

gatorboy
01-28-2010, 18:41
WTF!!

Has everyone lost all perspective?

Next to Toyota's little screw up this is monumental in proportion, why not give them a chance to make up for an oblivious mistake. Or should we just toss out the baby with the bathwater.

I only hope you are perfect in your life. :upeyes:


Lets see perhaps some snot nose after-school put the wrong poppers in the wrong box.

Or is this just the latest conspiracy to frost your flakes?:whistling:

This is'nt a mistake. Them loading MG bullets instead of GD's the last few months and still advertising them as bonded HP's is'nt a mistake either. I'm far from perfect in my life but I've been shooting DT since 2004, the day they opened for business and have shot 6k rds. of it. My last two orders for 9x25 were supposed to be loaded with GD's but had MG's instead. Who the hell needs an unbonded HP @ 2,088 fps (box flap from a 6")? Not me, I'm done.

remat
01-28-2010, 19:41
Tmygun, what did Mike say?

PATRICE
01-28-2010, 19:44
.....

Tmygun
01-28-2010, 19:55
Remat, I haven't heard a thing from Mike.

Tmygun:whistling:

CanyonMan
01-28-2010, 20:02
I gave up waiting to hear from DT, I shot some of the 180gr. mistake stuff today. It shoots well, but it still wasn't what I wanted. And it wasn't a matter of an after schooler putting the wrong ammo in the wrong box. There are others here that have the same ammo that's advertised as 200gr. JHP, and Montana Gold doesn't make 200gr. JHP bullets.
But I'm not bashing anyone, just revealing the facts.
I'll most likely handload my own ammo from now on anyway. I like my own loads better than anyone else's, and it's much cheaper to handload:supergrin:.
Tmygun



That a boy. Now your thinking straight. ;)


Good luck bud
stay safe




CanyonMan

PATRICE
01-30-2010, 12:50
.....

stengun
01-30-2010, 13:40
Howdy,

And people wonder why I do not care for DT ammo.:upeyes:

For me and my G20, we will stick with Win 175gr SilverTips.:supergrin:

Paul

Tmygun
01-30-2010, 16:32
I've still heard nothing back form DT. Oh well, if I ever need factory ammo, I know I won't be buying from them anymore. I'm just glad I only purchased one box.

Tmygun:wavey:

cmspeedy
01-30-2010, 18:25
I've still heard nothing back form DT. Oh well, if I ever need factory ammo, I know I won't be buying from them anymore. I'm just glad I only purchased one box.

Tmygun:wavey:

I'm shocked :upeyes:

remat
01-30-2010, 18:47
Okay...I just thought of another question.

I just went to view the website to see what kind of prices they are offering. $40 + shipping for a 50 round box of standard FMJ .45 ACP??? Are you kidding me?

I don't understand how anybody would think that is a fair price. Esp. for target ammo. They are out of their minds at that amount. Even at the local gun shops around here with slightly inflated prices, a 50 rd. box of .45 is between $20-$22.

That is just silly. :dunno:

Except for the fact that their 230gr FMJ makes over 1000fps from a 5". That is faster than most company's +P. It is also match, loaded for accuracy. Haven't bought any big box 45 match lately but I am sure it is comparable.

KiloBravo
01-31-2010, 05:01
Except for the fact that their 230gr FMJ makes over 1000fps from a 5". That is faster than most company's +P. It is also match, loaded for accuracy. Haven't bought any big box 45 match lately but I am sure it is comparable.

Ohhh, okay. I was not aware of that. I stand corrected then. :embarassed:

texas 48
01-31-2010, 22:03
Seems like this is becoming more and more common for DT.
Checked their website
and they stopped offering 165 and 155gr Gold Dots now only carry Barnes in 155 gr. Still had 165 bonded using Golden sabers.
You are correct it s becoming an epidemic. 2 months ago I ordered 2 boxes of 165gr GS they sent me 4 boxes. I called McNett and he would not budge I had an invoice that printed out 2 boxes and someone crossed out and hand wrote 4 and changed the price. He stated no one @ DT would do that. He or anyone @ DT is unreachable. I have ordered a couple thousand rounds in the last 3 years nd this was my 1st problem. I think his decision to expand his product line and the demand over the last year has him over capacity and does not have the staff or equipement to keep up. In addition lack of components forced him to alternate suppliers.
Montana gold makes good bullets for target but are not the same for SD.
DT is riding the crest of the wave right now but the wave is breaking and his reputation is taking a dive. Could be he no longer cares or is not able to manage his business at the next level.

carbofan21
01-31-2010, 22:44
personally, i think he doesn't care

you place your order, he sends whatever he has on hand. you don't like it, he ignores you. plenty of others waiting in line to buy his crap

dougader
01-31-2010, 23:21
Except for the fact that their 230gr FMJ makes over 1000fps from a 5". That is faster than most company's +P. It is also match, loaded for accuracy. Haven't bought any big box 45 match lately but I am sure it is comparable.

Well, I have had good results with Mike's older loadings of 10mm ammo, but my last batch of 45 FMJFP ammo from Mike chronographed at 843 fps; the 230 grain GDHP (bonded) averaged 909 fps from a G21 with stock barrel.

c5367
01-31-2010, 23:30
Wow again.

I gotta say i'm having 2nd thoughts about putting in any more orders with DT.

I guess it's time to buy a chrono and take my own operation beyond range practice fodder.

Brian Lee
02-01-2010, 00:12
Reading this thread is really putting the final nail in the DT coffin as far as I'm concerned. I already had trouble with them sending me a bunch of 9x25 with the brass so badly formed that you could hold them in your hand and see the bullets were about .030" out of center, and they could not be pushed into the chamber. I called on the phone and they actually had the nerve to tell me that my barrel just had it's chamber cut too tight!! What crap!!

The other thing was when I bought a chronograph and found that their velocity claims were NEVER anywhere near the advertised claim. Sometimes, as in the case of the 155 grain Barnes XPB load, they fall as much as 270 FPS short (and that's the average of a 50 shot string), although in the case of the 165 grain (10MM) gold dots, they were only about 75 FPS short of the claim. Their 147 grain 9x25 load that's supposed to go 1495 FPS only hit 1300 for me as well. If I'm not really getting the hot ammo they claim they sell, why am I paying 40 bucks a box? WTF??? My cheap target ammo is almost as hot in some cases.

As for communication with them, you'll never get anywhere through the email. Even if you call on the phone, they usually just say whatever will end the call quickly, with a promise that someone will call back, but it doesn't usually happen.

Now I see why they don't put their phone number on their web site, but it is on the printed shipping list included with your order. I'd suggest calling, and KEEP calling back until you get some satisfaction.

DT's Phone = 866-357-1066
DT's Fax = 435-867-8524

cowboywannabe
02-01-2010, 08:06
wait a minute! im no ammo expert but i thought the God Dots were the BONDED bullets and the Golden Sabers were NOT BONDED.

my last ammo order was the 10mm 165gr BONDED Gold Dots, and from my amateur testing they were BONDED. i didnt know that Golden Sabers were bonded also.

cmspeedy
02-01-2010, 08:28
cowboy what kind of amateur testing did you do?

I'm curious how the 165's held up at the higher velocities.

ashtxsniper
02-01-2010, 08:32
wait a minute! im no ammo expert but i thought the God Dots were the BONDED bullets and the Golden Sabers were NOT BONDED.

my last ammo order was the 10mm 165gr BONDED Gold Dots, and from my amateur testing they were BONDED. i didnt know that Golden Sabers were bonded also.Golden Sabers come in bonded and unbonded.

cowboywannabe
02-01-2010, 09:06
ash, thanks for the info.


cm, im trying to paste the thread here....http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1058371

remat
02-01-2010, 19:32
oop ack (never mind)

Cineski
02-10-2010, 12:37
Any updates?

N/Apower
02-10-2010, 13:20
*sigh*, and this is why I LOL at all those out there who just HAVE to have the latest botique loading of un-proven origin.

cowboywannabe
02-10-2010, 14:29
N/A who can you suggest folks buy from that make full power 10mm loads at reasonable prices and have been an established leader in the industry for a decade or more?

the only one i can think of is nobody, unless you have an "in" with Norma.

N/Apower
02-10-2010, 15:13
N/A who can you suggest folks buy from that make full power 10mm loads at reasonable prices and have been an established leader in the industry for a decade or more?

the only one i can think of is nobody, unless you have an "in" with Norma.

If I had a 10mm I would roll my own. At least I would then know what components were used.

cowboywannabe
02-10-2010, 15:17
that can be said for any caliber.
sorry, thought you had some legit input.

BTW, has anyone done or have a link to testing done with Reed's ammo? their site has some good info but theyre still a bit of an unkown to me.

thanks.

remat
02-10-2010, 18:37
*sigh*, and this is why I LOL at all those out there who just HAVE to have the latest botique loading of un-proven origin.

But....Direct injection is the way to go. :supergrin:

(in reference to your screen name)

N/Apower
02-10-2010, 18:57
But....Direct injection is the way to go. :supergrin:

(in reference to your screen name)

Direct injection is the wave of the future, imho, and allows for a point or so higher compression (and obviously greater efficiency). However, like tune-port injection and shortly after, fuel-injection, there is going to be a learning curve before it can truly be tapped to the potential of regular old fuel-injection. Low-pressure fuel-systems and swapping in monster injectors just seems easier/cheaper. With DI systems, I am not sure what would be changed, maybe duration of fuel delivery?Pressure? All I know is the aperature that fuel comes from is going to be mighty expensive to change for a good-long while.

I do agree though, the day is coming. However, I like low-tech stuff. Well, medium-tech I guess. I like cam-in-block, I think OHC is a waste of space. I like being able to pop the hood and fix whatever is wrong, provided I have the right tools at hand. OBDII is about the speed where I am. I like a computer to tell me what's wrong, and not have to be a rocket-scientist to replace it.

In reference to the complaint that "Oh, well that can be said for any round".

Well, sure it can, but good luck finding decent 10mm on the market. I can find good 357SIG, 9mm, .40, etc.

I was simply suggesting a way to get quality ammunition in the caliber you have chosen to inquire about. If you expect me to have an "in" with some manufacturer, etc, the best I could do is to refer you to someone else who loads what I consider "botique" ammunition. I have no "in" with Norma, or anyone else. The closest I come to an industry "in" with anyone is a few e-mails swapped with Hal Price of ATK regarding the 357SIG. Hardly what you require.

If there was a "legit" answer to a factory produced, readily-available 10mm round, I am betting you would have already uncovered it as you seem quite concerned about it.

remat
02-10-2010, 19:19
I used to be a big H/C/I guy when my primary car was a 5.0. Boy, you could do anything to that motor and it ooozed torque. I traded it in last year for a DI and wow! The Stang would only be faster as long as both cars were for some reason stuck in first gear only. But, work on it? No way....

But, I agree loading your 10mm price-wise is the way to go. I live in a very pro-10mm area and I can always find it on the shelf, BUT it is now running about $25 box for the unimpressive UMC (although the nickle plated brass is shiny). My Delta is currently out this week having a 40 barrel fit to it.

FWIW, 357Sig seems to be running about $25 a box around here to (and randomly enough, if you check that other 357Sig thread, there is a pic of my Delta in it).

cowboywannabe
02-10-2010, 19:20
N/A, the only "legit" ammo available off the shelf in my area is the STHP but that like any other non "boutique" ammo is only mid powered.
im not knocking handloaders for paper punching or even hunting, but in the self defense arena id rather have somebody else's lawyers explaining the ammo specs than mine.

N/Apower
02-10-2010, 19:42
N/A, the only "legit" ammo available off the shelf in my area is the STHP but that like any other non "boutique" ammo is only mid powered.
im not knocking handloaders for paper punching or even hunting, but in the self defense arena id rather have somebody else's lawyers explaining the ammo specs than mine.


Regardless of who loaded it, I am aware of one case where the 10mm was used, justifiably, in the case of the defendant, Mr. Fish, to stop the commission of a violent crime from being perpetrated towards his person, and his choice of caliber was indeed effectively used against him by the prosecution.

Ergo, your choice of caliber seems to have already had a history of trouble in the legal realm. You can look at this one of two ways: No matter what, someone is going to try to make you look like a bad-guy for having shot someone, so you might as well shoot 'em as effectively as you can and just deal with it, or Two: You are already "blacklisted" as an evil gun-owner, and should tippy-toe about and dump your 10mm for a .22 derringer loaded with target ammo.

Also, I like the proliferate, and sometimes incorrect use of commas.

I personally am of the mindset that I should carry what I have the most faith in that I can legally obtain and use, and then worry about the fall-out later. As long as I am there to worry about the fall-out, I might well have made it further than had I tried to avoid said fall-out.

I used to be a big H/C/I guy when my primary car was a 5.0. Boy, you could do anything to that motor and it ooozed torque. I traded it in last year for a DI and wow! The Stang would only be faster as long as both cars were for some reason stuck in first gear only. But, work on it? No way....

But, I agree loading your 10mm price-wise is the way to go. I live in a very pro-10mm area and I can always find it on the shelf, BUT it is now running about $25 box for the unimpressive UMC (although the nickle plated brass is shiny). My Delta is currently out this week having a 40 barrel fit to it.

FWIW, 357Sig seems to be running about $25 a box around here to (and randomly enough, if you check that other 357Sig thread, there is a pic of my Delta in it).


I owned an HCI 88 5.0 GT. It was a poorly matched combination with an X303 cam, GT40P heads, 4.10 gears, shorty headers, etc. etc.

I traded it for a bone-stock 2001 WS6 6-speed and have never looked back. 27mpg and the WS6 slaughtered the 5.0 and every other stock mustang I ever had a fair race against except for a Shelby GT500. I even ran a supercharged 99-04 and it was almost a dead-heat. I ran another 5.0, this one a 94', with a better setup as well. He had aluminum heads, an E-cam, and a better tune. After 5,000rpm he died though. Just no contest. That WS6 has killed a Z4M, tied every C5 'vette I ran, killed numerous new style mustang GT's, chargers, and a 6-speed challenger, along with a bunch of other nice stuff. That LS1/T56 combo is just hell to beat, but almost a decade later, the rest of the automotive world is catching up.

At any rate, the WS6 always seems to break, something goes wrong, etc. and I am tired of pony-cars. I plan on something absurd for a few years after I am done with my degree. Something with no utter purpose in life than to pollute the ozone, make me smile, and help someone cash in on my life insurance policy early. Been a Viper fan since I was a grade-school in '92, and it's a sickness I never shook. What better could I do than aim to buy a '10 in late '11. Last of the current generation Dodge is producing. Supposedly there will be a 2012 or 2014 Viper, but I'm not going to bank on it, or bank on it being worth a darn. I'd rather take a known icon over a possible chimera.

Before you rag on this idea, I freely admit that I am a man with no family responsibilities, outstanding debt, or sense of investment priorities. Think what you will.

mongo356
02-10-2010, 21:42
Like many people I started out looking at the latest "boutique" ammo companies for the "true full power 10mm spec" ammo. I then chrono-ed said boutique ammo and found out that the velocity numbers don't match anyway.

If what I am shooting at needs the difference in normal 10mm loads and "suber hot thermo-neuclear" 10mm loads( in real world numbers 100fps ) I need a bigger caliber gun simple as that. I make my own or if I need factory ammo for 10mm, Hornady makes good ammo for all occasions. I'm reasonably sure whatever gets hit won't be able to tell the difference if the shots are placed well.

the iceman
02-10-2010, 21:48
My Delta is currently out this week having a 40 barrel fit to it.

I have been considering doing this. Where are you having it done at?

remat
02-10-2010, 22:13
I have been considering doing this. Where are you having it done at?

Local smith who also did the stippling on my HiPower. I will post a pic when done.

I got the barrel from Numrich, S/S with muzzle step made by Kahr. Was about $80!

Here is a couple of pics, I was impressed with the quality:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3508/4024288394_8715c1b5ff.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3483/4024288368_632e833748.jpg

the iceman
02-10-2010, 22:21
Local smith who also did the stippling on my HiPower. I will post a pic when done.

I got the barrel from Numrich, S/S with muzzle step made by Kahr. Was about $80!

Here is a couple of pics, I was impressed with the quality:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3508/4024288394_8715c1b5ff.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3483/4024288368_632e833748.jpg

Not bad...not bad at all!

I am definitely going to look into it. I have been wanting to do this for awhile but always end up buying a new gun instead.

remat
02-10-2010, 22:49
I owned an HCI 88 5.0 GT. It was a poorly matched combination with an X303 cam, GT40P heads, 4.10 gears, shorty headers, etc. etc.


89 GT Vert (top was one the reasons for trading it in), with ported E7's, Cobra intake (not an original), with Edelbrock cam (forget which one, knew a few years ago), BBK ceramic 1 5/8" shorty's and Magnaflow H-pipe and catback. Still was a little weak at high RPM freeway speeds. I blame the E7's. :)


and I am tired of pony-cars.


That happened to me too...I ended up getting a Lexus IS-350 (thus the DI reference). No regrets. I thought the GT was plush....and fast. Guess it depends what you compare it to.


I plan on something absurd for a few years after I am done with my degree. Something with no utter purpose in life than to pollute the ozone, make me smile, and help someone cash in on my life insurance policy early. Been a Viper fan since I was a grade-school in '92, and it's a sickness I never shook. What better could I do than aim to buy a '10 in late '11. Last of the current generation Dodge is producing. Supposedly there will be a 2012 or 2014 Viper, but I'm not going to bank on it, or bank on it being worth a darn. I'd rather take a known icon over a possible chimera.

Before you rag on this idea, I freely admit that I am a man with no family responsibilities, outstanding debt, or sense of investment priorities. Think what you will.

Actually, I am a big fan of the Vipers. A Vette was a serious option up until the end and ironically it had a bigger trunk.

Like firearms, people should get what they want. Even if it is 10mm, 147gr, or even DoubleTap :supergrin:

regards

novaDAK
02-10-2010, 23:56
Golden Sabers come in bonded and unbonded.

Only in factory ammo, and the bonded GS are restricted by Rem to LE only. Unless DT has some super deal with Remington allowing him to buy bonded GS, then the Golden Sabers he's loading are the same unbonded reloading components available to the public.

N/Apower
02-11-2010, 00:20
Only in factory ammo, and the bonded GS are restricted by Rem to LE only. Unless DT has some super deal with Remington allowing him to buy bonded GS, then the Golden Sabers he's loading are the same unbonded reloading components available to the public.

The GS is a good round, but it has been superceded by more modern designs. It's main application, from what I have seen, has been in keeping picky 1911's fed, due to it's very 1911-friendly profile.

Ak.Hiker
02-11-2010, 09:31
The Remington GS is known for having a ball like feed profile. While being an older design it still would be a good choice for SD. Just like several other older designs like the XTP and Hydra Shok they will work as good as they ever did. With the higher cost of ammo I am finding myself walking away from some of the new bullets on the market and carrying what I already have.

Cineski
02-11-2010, 10:05
I took delivery of 3 boxes from Reed's ammo last week. I don't have a chrono unfortunately.

that can be said for any caliber.
sorry, thought you had some legit input.

BTW, has anyone done or have a link to testing done with Reed's ammo? their site has some good info but theyre still a bit of an unkown to me.

thanks.

the iceman
02-11-2010, 11:35
I took delivery of 3 boxes from Reed's ammo last week. I don't have a chrono unfortunately.

I got a few boxes from Reed's as well and although I have nothing technical to report, I have fired a couple mags and am happy with the results. They seem accurate and and some punch to them.

I thought about starting a seperate thread to pass word that there are alternative and cheaper options than Double Tap. I will be placing most of my orders with Reed's for now on.

Cineski
02-11-2010, 14:02
Yeah, reed's does seem good, and it wasn't until I got my 180 grain gold dots that I realized Double Tap sent me their version of 180 grain gold dots....aka, the bullets they sent me that were supposed to be 180 grain gd's but WEREN'T. No idea what they are, but maybe lighter gold dots? Wouldn't that be great if I were attacked by a bear in the woods and died because the DoubleTap ammo I thought were heavy didn't penetrate enough? After deflating DoubleTap's claimed ballistics and adjusting for elevation, Reed's seems right on par with DT.

N/Apower
02-11-2010, 14:45
The chronograph tests I have seen done on Buffalo Bore reveal consistancy that impressed me. If I were to buy non Olin/ATK products for serious purpose, I would probably go with them.

the iceman
02-11-2010, 21:46
Yeah, reed's does seem good, and it wasn't until I got my 180 grain gold dots that I realized Double Tap sent me their version of 180 grain gold dots....aka, the bullets they sent me that were supposed to be 180 grain gd's but WEREN'T. No idea what they are, but maybe lighter gold dots? Wouldn't that be great if I were attacked by a bear in the woods and died because the DoubleTap ammo I thought were heavy didn't penetrate enough? After deflating DoubleTap's claimed ballistics and adjusting for elevation, Reed's seems right on par with DT.

I don't own a chrono or anything else to really test that stuff so I will never really know. If they aren't at the same level at DT, that is fine with me. Hell, it's better for me! The last thing I would want to do is run nothing but HOT ammo through my Delta.

the iceman
02-11-2010, 21:48
The chronograph tests I have seen done on Buffalo Bore reveal consistancy that impressed me. If I were to buy non Olin/ATK products for serious purpose, I would probably go with them.

Buffalo Bore is very hot and from what I have heard, there numbers are very consistant.

They are way out of my price range to shoot often. They are anywhere from $25-$30 on the net. That's just for 20 rounds of 10mm. I have never seen any 10mm on the shelves, only websites.

I did write the company and ask if they will ever sell in 50 round boxes but never received a reply.

N/Apower
02-11-2010, 23:42
Buffalo Bore is very hot and from what I have heard, there numbers are very consistant.

They are way out of my price range to shoot often. They are anywhere from $25-$30 on the net. That's just for 20 rounds of 10mm. I have never seen any 10mm on the shelves, only websites.

I did write the company and ask if they will ever sell in 50 round boxes but never received a reply.

No arguments from me, but I would buy their stuff before Double Tap's.

cmspeedy
02-12-2010, 08:10
People are flocking away from Double Tap - as they should after the unethical dookie of a company they have turned into. I'm glad that they (Doubletap) helped me see the true power of the 10mm, but that was years ago.......just like marriage - things change.

I made my move away from Double Tap after being appalled on 2 separate orders and reading what others are going through here. I then bought a Dillon 550, started loading my own and am extremely happy that I did.

This company could have totally cornered the 10mm market, instead most likely he will be one of the below average ammo retailers on the net - SO SAD.

The best advice I can give to 10mm shooters right now is - STAY AWAY FROM DOUBLETAP!!! They will make you hate the fact that you bought a 10mm.

Mike seems to be hiding behind his website and is failing to address issues that are sure to arise when doing business. I don't fault him for the mistakes, just his lack of apologizing and inability to make things right when in most cases a simple phone call explaining the mistake would satisfy his (once) loyal customer base.

I am waiting to see if he can stop the downward slide and if Mike can get things headed in the right direction again - I hope so.

Dreamaster
02-12-2010, 08:29
:(

Well, looking over his website he's removed all of the gold dot 10mm offerings, my guess is he ran out and doesn't have a good way to restock them quickly.

So now it's either Nosler 180 grain, or 165 Remington Gold saber.

I have about 2.5 boxes of 165 doubletap gold dots left in my stash. Tonight I will cuddle with them... as I'm not likely to see many more.

In the future I'll have a choice to make, purchase Buffalo Bores very expensive rounds, or swap in my .40 S&W barrel... permanently.

dougader
02-12-2010, 11:32
More reason to handload your own. Jump in. You'll be glad you did.

s0nspark
02-13-2010, 08:03
:(

Well, looking over his website he's removed all of the gold dot 10mm offerings, my guess is he ran out and doesn't have a good way to restock them quickly.


I don''t think it is just DT, there... Georgia Arms has had an equally difficult time filling my 5 month old order for 10mm GDs... and FreakShow Ammo is going under due to not being able to satisfy all of the backorders he took...

I hate to say it but it seems handloading is becoming the only trustworthy way to ensure you have good, full power loads for a 10mm :-(

I only frown because I have yet to buy a Dillon press, etc... :-(

Ak.Hiker
02-13-2010, 22:15
I don''t think it is just DT, there... Georgia Arms has had an equally difficult time filling my 5 month old order for 10mm GDs... and FreakShow Ammo is going under due to not being able to satisfy all of the backorders he took...

I hate to say it but it seems handloading is becoming the only trustworthy way to ensure you have good, full power loads for a 10mm :-(

I only frown because I have yet to buy a Dillon press, etc... :-(

It is a real shame to see hard working men go under because they can not get the needed components to produce their ammo. One of my friends in town here has really struggled as well. He is a custom loader and has not been able to keep his supplies in stock.

Randal45
02-14-2010, 06:50
I don''t think it is just DT, there... Georgia Arms has had an equally difficult time filling my 5 month old order for 10mm GDs... and FreakShow Ammo is going under due to not being able to satisfy all of the backorders he took...

I hate to say it but it seems handloading is becoming the only trustworthy way to ensure you have good, full power loads for a 10mm :-(

I only frown because I have yet to buy a Dillon press, etc... :-(


Most customers are reasonable and understanding once the situation is explained to them. If those struggling ammo loaders would be upfront and tell their customers what is going on then I am sure that they would keep their customer base. If they choose not to then they get they get what they deserve. JMHO.

s0nspark
02-14-2010, 07:16
Most customers are reasonable and understanding once the situation is explained to them. If those struggling ammo loaders would be upfront and tell their customers what is going on then I am sure that they would keep their customer base. If they choose not to then they get they get what they deserve. JMHO.

That is where most of my frustration with Georgia Arms comes from. They have told me in general terms what the situation is... but they have also promised delivery around a certain time, not come through, and then said nothing to explain or even inform me.

I just wish their communication was better... and their website was more informative regarding order status, etc.

Iceman cHucK
02-14-2010, 07:20
Buffalo Bore was very upfront with me when I questioned why my recent 45Super order came with Montana Gold 230jhp instead of the usual 230GoldDot. They said they had a very difficult time getting the GoldDots, that Speer had stopped shipping them to BB ,just so they could fill their own orders. Said he occasionally will get some GD but rare. Said he is struggling to get components, and that substitution was necessary just to stay in business. Implied general public has no idea how bad it really is!

s0nspark
02-14-2010, 07:23
Buffalo Bore was very upfront with me when I questioned why my recent 45Super order came with Montana Gold 230jhp instead of the usual 230GoldDot. They said they had a very difficult time getting the GoldDots, that Speer had stopped shipping them to BB ,just so they could fill their own orders.

Hmm ... that certainly explains why my case of Gold Dots from Georgia Arms has been delayed so long ... and it makes me wonder why they just didn't tell me that!

Ak.Hiker
02-14-2010, 13:55
If their is a demand for a product someone will step up to the plate and try to make some money by filling that need. If Speer can not keep up with their demand someone else will. I see DT is loading Remington 115 grain JHP bullets in the 9mm, Nosler 180 JHP bullets in the 40 S&W and 10mm. Several companies are loading the Montana Gold. While not designed for SD their FMJ bullets are well made and should be a good option for people that have a need for deep penetration like hikers and hunters looking for a back up field load. My last 200 grain 10mm FMJ order from DT is loaded with the Montana Gold.

remat
02-14-2010, 15:53
FWIW, Not everyone that shoots DoubleTap has had problems..I shot my last box of 180gr GD. Looks like the 180gr Noslers are going to be a few bucks more :( Wish they still loaded XTP's...

Dave T
02-15-2010, 08:44
For those who don't reload (I don't anymore either) my chronograph tests of Hornady's 10mm loads always came up a little more than their advertised velocitys. I don't know of any other factory ammo maker I can say that about. They still aren't up to the level of the original Norma stuff but they are indeed more robust than any 40 S&W, which is what most 10mm shooters are looking for. Hornady stuff is hard to find these days, just like most everything else, but it is a reasonable alternative for factory ammo.

Dave

CanyonMan
02-15-2010, 11:46
Buffalo Bore was very upfront with me when I questioned why my recent 45Super order came with Montana Gold 230jhp instead of the usual 230GoldDot. They said they had a very difficult time getting the GoldDots, that Speer had stopped shipping them to BB ,just so they could fill their own orders. Said he occasionally will get some GD but rare. Said he is struggling to get components, and that substitution was necessary just to stay in business. Implied general public has no idea how bad it really is!


Hey amigo..

I hear his frustration at BB. BUT. We drove all the way in to Ft. Worth over the weekend to go to Cabela's. My wife had some shopping to do and I had the whole store to play in. I looked at some factory offerings by several companys. BB was one of them. The first box of BB 124gr JHP's +P+ I opened and looked at were NOT GD's but rather a very generic looking JHP. Had a real stron resemblence to te WWB 230 JHP 45acp style bullet. The next box of BB in the same offering as above, was Montana Gold. I laid them down and said No Thanks.

That being said my friend, I understand some of these guys may be struggling in some areas, BUT, Why would I want to settle for crap. Second rate materials, substituted for the better quality stuff will never see my money. There is NO reason to compromise quality and charge the same ammount for a SD bullet. If these guys like BB and DT, and others are going to compromise quality components with lesser ones, then make it "crystal clear on the web site/s, and lower the prices.

I looked at a box of Black Hills 124gr JHP 9mil 50 ct. They were as advertised. But, they were 40.00 + tax. No thanks again. Then there were the GD's and the GS's etc, way to much $$$ for 20 rounds.

So. I made my decision. I will carry my own reloads in 'most' if not all I carry from now on. Bye Bye factory ammo... :wavey:


I will continue to carry the WWB 147gr JHP and the GD 124gr +P JHP in the G19 I throw in the truck. I will reload for and carry those reloads in the 10mm, and the 40s&W which only see 2 to 3 % of my carry any way. My primary carry (like it is a secrect here), is the 45acp, and that is always loaded with WWB 230gr ball or CCI Brass 230gr ball, which is inexpencive and very available, so no problem there. But as for the others. Home rolled, or it can stay in the safe. One small exception, is the little 9mil. I bought a bunch of 147gr JHP XTP's at Cabela's, so I will roll my own with them, and carry them as well.

Between QC, nothing I like out there much anyway, and $$$, in the factory offerings, I have made my mind up. I will carry my own handloads in these I have named above here, and may just do it in all my guns that would be for carry...


:soap: Now yes I'm on one today, ;) after driving all that way to see the lack of ammo, and the cost of ammo, and the crappy bullets some are using, and the lousy QC of others.


I trust mine. So decision made here... ;)


Good shooting my friend.




CanyonMan

Elvis Lives
02-15-2010, 14:38
has anyone sent him a link to this thread yet? this is FAR from isolated incudents. much lower than adverstised chronos, swapping bullets, adding unauthorized boxes to orders, among other things is seriously reprehensible.

doesnt matter if there are more people in linebut how many people and money did he lose already even just from the people from glocktalk which i assume is what made doubletap knowns in the first place.

it will be his undoing. that is completely unbeleivable these practices.

blazed013
02-16-2010, 16:04
I never have or will buy any DT it way way over priced ....and now this WTF ?

Cineski
02-25-2010, 16:10
I'm curious, too. Over 3300 people have viewed this thread.

has anyone sent him a link to this thread yet? this is FAR from isolated incudents. much lower than adverstised chronos, swapping bullets, adding unauthorized boxes to orders, among other things is seriously reprehensible.

doesnt matter if there are more people in linebut how many people and money did he lose already even just from the people from glocktalk which i assume is what made doubletap knowns in the first place.

it will be his undoing. that is completely unbeleivable these practices.

jwizzl497
02-26-2010, 10:31
I bought a box of DOubletap for every caliber I have and now I read this and I'm concerned. How do I check, How can I tell what bullet i have?

Elvis Lives
02-28-2010, 07:19
I bought a box of DOubletap for every caliber I have and now I read this and I'm concerned. How do I check, How can I tell what bullet i have?
good luck. get a chronograph or a friend with one and measure the velocity. then check the actual bullets with someone that knows what looks like what. there are numerous problems with doubletap and have been for awhile.

i have no clue what they are thinking...get as much people on our way out as we can?

good luck. i would not rely on any of their ammo for self defense.

s0nspark
02-28-2010, 07:26
I never have or will buy any DT it way way over priced ....and now this WTF ?

I agree many of their products seem pricey to me ... but not all. The 10mm 155gr Barnes is actually a good deal compared to the only other factory loading I'm aware of (Corbon DPX)...

It is quite disconcerting, in any case, to see customers not being treated right... I hope DT steps up and fixes this mess.

cmspeedy
02-28-2010, 19:53
I agree many of their products seem pricey to me ... but not all. The 10mm 155gr Barnes is actually a good deal compared to the only other factory loading I'm aware of (Corbon DPX)...

It is quite disconcerting, in any case, to see customers not being treated right... I hope DT steps up and fixes this mess.

Except it chronos slower than the DPX - Try it out for yourself. I did and am very glad I only bought one box of doubletap's X-Bullet 155g. The Corbon is hands down superior IMO. I would trust my life to it - the DT - never did and never would. The inconsistency was the first thing that turned me off. Extreme velocity stpreads are the norm for DT.

The 10mm DPX is an awesome round, but many of my .40 rounds surpass it in energy. I want to buy some barnes bullets, but they have no loading data out yet and I don't like charting unknown territory.

As soon as more info is available I plan on trying them out.

the iceman
02-28-2010, 22:28
They did find the time to raise many of their boxes up a $1.

750SpiritRdr
03-01-2010, 18:32
WOW!!! i was just asking about DT...Guess i'll try Buffalobore. Thanks for the info.

jaybirdjtt
03-03-2010, 21:53
Seems like when demand goes way up, like these days with ammo, QA goes down. I've seen it with houses built during building booms, with restaurants when they become fashionable, and just about everything else.

remat
03-03-2010, 22:59
hmmm...this thread was started towards the end of Jan and nobody can get ahold of DT? Except for me. On the first try.

Worried about DoubleTap? Call or email them yourself or buy a box and try it. Just note that not all of the offerings are Gold Dot. Apparently GD's are hard to get right now. Nothing wrong with the Noslers (except they cost more) IMO.


Between people pulling bullets on factory ammo, the 357Sig name-calling thread, the you can't kill me with a 380/insult the OP thread, the 10mm bashing (its too weak AND overpenetrates), and the thread where supposedly 80 out of 100 rounds of Federal defense ammo "failed"/name calling -- I am out of this subforum.

Bash away, but folks remember anybody can post what they like. Decide for yourself.

Ak.Hiker
03-03-2010, 23:25
DT also has a very good variety of FMJ, Keith, and LBT penetration loads available for outdoorsman. They load a 255 grain Keith in 45 Colt that is one of my favorite loads in my Blackhawk.

Elvis Lives
03-08-2010, 05:58
yes and Doubletap also have a great variety of deceptive, unethical, and illegal practices in their catalogue.

it comes free with every order.:wow:

Ak.Hiker
03-08-2010, 18:45
yes and Doubletap also have a great variety of deceptive, unethical, and illegal practices in their catalogue.

it comes free with every order.:wow:

Do you have some examples?

Elvis Lives
03-09-2010, 02:03
i do have samples sitting here...samples of faaaaaaaarly offed chrono numbers, wrong bullets, a couple of no powder charges(wow great for self defense), and unauthorized charges.

for examples read the rest of this thread and other doubletap ones.

like i said...they dont charge you any extra for all these practices and more. enjoy your doubletap.

AK_Stick
03-09-2010, 04:30
I love it. Shows up in February, bashes DT, has "examples" and yet not a scrap of proof.....


I've got DT ammo in 375 H&H, 338 Win Mag, and 10mm, 155 grain X- and 125 grain Nosler.

I'm satisfied with the performance of every round of DT I've ever touched off. I've taken game with DT loads in 4 calibers. Yet to have any sort of issues.

Ak.Hiker
03-09-2010, 10:30
i do have samples sitting here...samples of faaaaaaaarly offed chrono numbers, wrong bullets, a couple of no powder charges(wow great for self defense), and unauthorized charges.

for examples read the rest of this thread and other doubletap ones.

like i said...they dont charge you any extra for all these practices and more. enjoy your doubletap.

I have read the thread. The problem I have is I have never had any problem with any DT ammo that I have used myself. In fact in several of my guns it is the most accurate of all of the loads I have tried out. I carry the 200 grain FMJ in my Glock 29, the 255 grain Keith in my 45 Colt Blackhawk, the 250 Keith in my Taurus model 44 etc. They all work for me. I once had a Winchester Supreme 250 grain Nosler fail to fire. I would still carry Winchester ammo. I once had a 320 grain Penetrator CorBon 454 jump the crimp. I would still carry the CorBon brand just not that load in my gun. Nothing in life is perfect.

Elvis Lives
03-09-2010, 14:29
i dont just "show up" to bash dt. i stumbled upon it much later relatively. no need to defend dt.

i used to buy a ton of 10mm from them back in the day...never a problem. not sure what happened in the last year and a half...personal troubles, whatever...but i guarantee you they are not nearly what they used to be and far worse.


as far as ammo...if even 3 of 100 rounds are no good...that's bad enough for me...if you are only plinking..then who cares i guess....although they do not do anything to make things right, if there is anything wrong. i can post stuff to a hosting site if i knew how to upload big video from my camera. i dont have a digital camcorder. not sure what exactly you want for proof. sorry.

and i am not the only one.

spyderhead
03-13-2010, 23:12
Funny how I have had to call twice in the past week (changing an online order) and have not had any problem whatsoever getting through to DT. None. Checked my bullets and guess what? They are all - in 10mm, 9mm, and in 40S&W - EXACTLY what they were advertised. Strange. Guess some people just have all the bad luck.

glock2740
03-14-2010, 15:56
I hope DT comes around. I've always had good luck with them in the past.

glock2740
03-14-2010, 15:56
Oops, double post.

glocknick
03-14-2010, 19:31
i think the problem is with there 200gr controlled expansion. they are actually 180g. i have a box of them so i know they screwed up.

LASTRESORT20
09-20-2010, 21:09
I have been buying 10mm 180gr JHP controlled expansion & 200gr FMJ for the last 2 months from DT...no problems dont have a chrono...but the loads feel quite a bit hotter than the standard 180gr FMJ cheaper practice 10mm stuff I buy..I have also bought some G20 15 round mags...all good..I hated reading the bad news...Hope they got their act together.

NonPCnraRN
09-21-2010, 02:23
I bought some 200 gr WFNGC hardcast 40 S&W from DT. They appear to be everything they were purported to be but I have not chono'd them. If I was looking for a 10mm bullet to put down something with teeth and claws it would be either DT's 200 gr or 230 gr WFNGC hardcast ammo. The meplat is .32 inches for both which is larger than any commercial 45 ACP ammo meplats I have seen. Beartooth makes a 255 WFN with a meplat of .36 inches but no ammo uses that bullet. The BHN is 21 so they should penetrate large bones. For a bullet used for SD against an animal with teeth and claws or tusks I want penetration from a hardcast with a large meplat, not a HP bonded or otherwise. In corresponding with Mike McNett he has always responded quickly to my questions. The 200 gr bullet looks amazingly like the Beartooth 200 gr bullet but the meplat is .31 inches. I asked Mike about it and he said they bought their own casting company a couple of years ago. They also sell their hardcast bullets so you could use them to roll your own. The quality of their hardcast bullets is quite good. I live in CA so the 200 gr 40 S&W should handle anything in a trail gun. If I were to use a Glock for hunting it would be a full sized 10 mm with either the 200 or 230 gr WFNGC bullets with an aftermarket barrel. I saw on youtube where the factory Glock barrels wouldn't stabilize the 230 gr bullets but the aftermarket barrel stabilized the large bullets and the gun was very accurate. The factory barrel with the 230 gr load had shotgun like patterns. Whenever I needed an answer I just sent a message by pushing the icon "Contact Us" and I always got a response within a few days. Of course I was asking for clarification about meplat size, hardcast bullets in factory barrels etc, not a complaint. For those who want a backup trail gun I would again recommend the 10mm 200 or 230 gr WFNGC and forgo the HPs of any style. For 2 legged threats I will keep the 200 gr WFNGC that I got for trail use in my 23 and 27. That way I don't have to worry about what ammo is in the gun. 2 legged or 4 legged, its going down. By the way if you want heavy for caliber hardcast WFN bullets for the 44 mag or 45 Colt/454 Casull the DT bullets have some of the largest meplats that I've seen except for the Penn Thunderheads. The point is that DT has some good products and I haven't had any problems with electronic communication. I suppose I am just lucky or ordered ammo that they don't have problems getting components for.

Daryl in Az
09-22-2010, 16:44
This has been an interesting thread.

It's no excuse for anyone not being honest about it, but I guess when your livelihood is making ammo, and you can't find your components of choice, you make due with what you can get.

If DT used alternate components without notifying their customers, then I'm not sure I'd be inclined to do business with them again. I'd want proof, but the number of people having problems with DT is disheartening.

I can't even blame them for not lowering the price, really. The cost and availability of components was getting really rediculous for a while.

Heck, I ended up loading some 115 gr .355 diameter JHP's in .38 cases for a bit. Someone gave me a thousand, and I don't shoot a 9mm. They worked pretty good, and I still have 600-700 of them in the stash. Just have to use a good crimp.

Who knows, maybe I'll need to use more of 'em some day.

Daryl

LASTRESORT20
09-22-2010, 17:02
Yes this has been a very interesting thread......
Has anyone tried out swampfox Gunworks & ammo? Thinking about checking some of their 10mm ammo out...if you have a chance read the history of the guy and the company...and a little about the 10mm ammo....and choosing how hot "one" wants it.
http://www.swampfoxgunworks.com/swampfox/home.php?cat=258

glocknbruce
09-22-2010, 17:19
McNett used to post on Glock Talk, where is he now????

LASTRESORT20
09-22-2010, 18:18
McNett used to post on Glock Talk, where is he now????

.........Yup....:dunno:

gatorboy
09-23-2010, 18:30
I bought some 200 gr WFNGC hardcast 40 S&W from DT. They appear to be everything they were purported to be but I have not chono'd them. If I was looking for a 10mm bullet to put down something with teeth and claws it would be either DT's 200 gr or 230 gr WFNGC hardcast ammo. The meplat is .32 inches for both which is larger than any commercial 45 ACP ammo meplats I have seen. Beartooth makes a 255 WFN with a meplat of .36 inches but no ammo uses that bullet. The BHN is 21 so they should penetrate large bones. For a bullet used for SD against an animal with teeth and claws or tusks I want penetration from a hardcast with a large meplat, not a HP bonded or otherwise. In corresponding with Mike McNett he has always responded quickly to my questions. The 200 gr bullet looks amazingly like the Beartooth 200 gr bullet but the meplat is .31 inches. I asked Mike about it and he said they bought their own casting company a couple of years ago. They also sell their hardcast bullets so you could use them to roll your own. The quality of their hardcast bullets is quite good. I live in CA so the 200 gr 40 S&W should handle anything in a trail gun. If I were to use a Glock for hunting it would be a full sized 10 mm with either the 200 or 230 gr WFNGC bullets with an aftermarket barrel. I saw on youtube where the factory Glock barrels wouldn't stabilize the 230 gr bullets but the aftermarket barrel stabilized the large bullets and the gun was very accurate. The factory barrel with the 230 gr load had shotgun like patterns. Whenever I needed an answer I just sent a message by pushing the icon "Contact Us" and I always got a response within a few days. Of course I was asking for clarification about meplat size, hardcast bullets in factory barrels etc, not a complaint. For those who want a backup trail gun I would again recommend the 10mm 200 or 230 gr WFNGC and forgo the HPs of any style. For 2 legged threats I will keep the 200 gr WFNGC that I got for trail use in my 23 and 27. That way I don't have to worry about what ammo is in the gun. 2 legged or 4 legged, its going down. By the way if you want heavy for caliber hardcast WFN bullets for the 44 mag or 45 Colt/454 Casull the DT bullets have some of the largest meplats that I've seen except for the Penn Thunderheads. The point is that DT has some good products and I haven't had any problems with electronic communication. I suppose I am just lucky or ordered ammo that they don't have problems getting components for.


Damn that was hard to read, try paragraphs sometime. Anyway, are you saying the HC bullets DT loads now are not BT? They have a .31 meplat not .32 like the older BT they used to load?

NonPCnraRN
09-23-2010, 19:54
Damn that was hard to read, try paragraphs sometime. Anyway, are you saying the HC bullets DT loads now are not BT? They have a .31 meplat not .32 like the older BT they used to load?

Sorry, sometimes I get too wordy for my own good. At least I use caps and punctuation. I had read that DT was using Beartooth bullets for their hardcast loads but I noticed the Beartooth 200 gr 40 cal WFNGC had a meplat of .31 inch. The bullet offered by DT has a meplat of .32 inches. I emailed Mike McNett about that and he said they bought a casting company (Coal Creek Casting) a few years ago and are making their own cast bullets. The BHN of both Beartooth and DT hardcast bullets is 21. DT offers their hardcast bullets for sale if you don't trust their published velocity and want to roll your own.

I brought up the issue of hardcast bullets because someone commented about using a HP for protection against bears. If that is the case then the WFNGC 200 gr or 230 gr bullets would trump any HP.

Billy10mm
09-23-2010, 20:01
For the record, the one box of DT 200gr XTP I have is loaded with 180s. I'm using Reed's ammo and Winchester Silvertips for 10mm personal defense now. Continue to use Georgia-Arms for plinking.

gatorboy
09-24-2010, 02:41
Sorry, sometimes I get too wordy for my own good. At least I use caps and punctuation. I had read that DT was using Beartooth bullets for their hardcast loads but I noticed the Beartooth 200 gr 40 cal WFNGC had a meplat of .31 inch. The bullet offered by DT has a meplat of .32 inches. I emailed Mike McNett about that and he said they bought a casting company (Coal Creek Casting) a few years ago and are making their own cast bullets. The BHN of both Beartooth and DT hardcast bullets is 21. DT offers their hardcast bullets for sale if you don't trust their published velocity and want to roll your own.

I brought up the issue of hardcast bullets because someone commented about using a HP for protection against bears. If that is the case then the WFNGC 200 gr or 230 gr bullets would trump any HP.

Thanks for clarifying that. You said it but I was'nt sure by the time I finished reading. They're good bullets, I'll have to compare a new box to some older ones I have. I'm sure glad I put some boxes away of DT gold dots from 2005. They seem to be like gold these days.

Glock1911
09-24-2010, 07:37
I've got two partial boxes of DT I bought in '07. One box of 230gr. hardcast WFNGC and one box of 200gr FMJ-FP. I have no complaints about the rounds of this stuff that I've shot. Seems plenty stiff, but I've not chrono'd any of it. Don't have a chrono.
I've also shot plenty of the Hornady 10mm 180gr XTP-HP. It seems to have plenty of umph to it. I did have one round of the Hornady that seemed a bit overcharged, which concerned me.

DakPara
09-24-2010, 22:11
OK, I'll add some controversy. Lighter and faster (within reason) is better anyway.

NonPCnraRN
09-25-2010, 00:34
OK, I'll add some controversy. Lighter and faster (within reason) is better anyway.

Maybe on humans. But to see where that logic breaks down shoot a PO'd bear coming your direction using a light HP. Then you will realize that a 200-230 gr WFNGC at 1000 to 1100 fps is what you need, not a 135 gr HP. If the gun is for trail use then you will want the load that will stop the biggest threat you are likely to encounter. Plus it is nice to know that if a deer is unlucky enough to cross your path during deer season you can take a less than ideal broadside heart/lung shot. The heavier bullet will allow you to take a quartering shot that will break a leg and pass throught the vitals. The nice thing about a Glock with heavy DT or BB ammo is that you can have the equivalent of a 44 spl or 45 Colt with Keith loads in a 10 shot pocket auto.

Ak.Hiker
09-25-2010, 23:28
As much as I like my Glock 29 10mm loaded with 200 grain FMJ's at 1200 as a field gun when the really big critters are roaming around I much prefer my 5.5 inch Super Redhawk 454 Casull. I load the first 2 rounds with the 250 grain Federal Barnes X bullet load followed by 4 Winchester 300 grain JFP's. The X bullet load will penetrate 6 to 7 inches of spruce wood with enough expansion to punch a pretty good sized exit and still retain 100% of the starting weight. The Winchester 300 grain load will go through 12 inches of spruce.

Bello
09-26-2010, 14:07
McNett used to post on Glock Talk, where is he now????


I BELIEVE HE HIDES OUT AND ONLY POSTS NOW IN THE 10MM RELOADING FORUM! :tongueout: < under the bus he goes.

gatorboy
10-01-2010, 13:05
As much as I like my Glock 29 10mm loaded with 200 grain FMJ's at 1200 as a field gun when the really big critters are roaming around I much prefer my 5.5 inch Super Redhawk 454 Casull. I load the first 2 rounds with the 250 grain Federal Barnes X bullet load followed by 4 Winchester 300 grain JFP's. The X bullet load will penetrate 6 to 7 inches of spruce wood with enough expansion to punch a pretty good sized exit and still retain 100% of the starting weight. The Winchester 300 grain load will go through 12 inches of spruce.

I'm not saying the 454 is'nt better for huge bears than 10mm. You're an Alaskan, I'm a Floridian, I'll take your word. Considering I can shoot full power 10mm much faster than full power 44mag, I'd still take the 10mm with it's capacity advantage over any revolver (unless we're including a gatling gun mounted on my four wheeler). I think I'd rather carry my AK pistol on a sling than carry a huge revolver though. They probably weigh the same when the AK has a full 20 rd. polymer mag. I know what that AK pistol will do to a bear (well, I could imagine) because we've shot at junk cars with it and the bullets go all the way through whether it's a 2001 Honda Accord or a 1974 Chevy Impala.

Ak.Hiker
10-01-2010, 23:23
I'm not saying the 454 is'nt better for huge bears than 10mm. You're an Alaskan, I'm a Floridian, I'll take your word. Considering I can shoot full power 10mm much faster than full power 44mag, I'd still take the 10mm with it's capacity advantage over any revolver (unless we're including a gatling gun mounted on my four wheeler). I think I'd rather carry my AK pistol on a sling than carry a huge revolver though. They probably weigh the same when the AK has a full 20 rd. polymer mag. I know what that AK pistol will do to a bear (well, I could imagine) because we've shot at junk cars with it and the bullets go all the way through whether it's a 2001 Honda Accord or a 1974 Chevy Impala.

I like the idea of a gatling gun mounted on a four wheeler. I guess if you were going into the everglades you could mount it on an airboat. You guys have some big critters as well. I think I would take the bears in Ak. over the pythons in the everglades. A snake big enough to eat a deer is something to think about. The 454 would make a great hog hunting gun in your area. Of course it would not be as quick to get into action as the 10mm. That atvantage would go to the 10mm.

FlyBoy007
10-02-2010, 08:34
I like the idea of a gatling gun mounted on a four wheeler. I guess if you were going into the everglades you could mount it on an airboat. You guys have some big critters as well. I think I would take the bears in Ak. over the pythons in the everglades. A snake big enough to eat a deer is something to think about. The 454 would make a great hog hunting gun in your area. Of course it would not be as quick to get into action as the 10mm. That atvantage would go to the 10mm.


Or or a gator....

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/10/1006_051006_pythoneatsgator.html

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/python-vs-alligator-everglades.jpg

NonPCnraRN
10-02-2010, 14:07
Except it chronos slower than the DPX - Try it out for yourself. I did and am very glad I only bought one box of doubletap's X-Bullet 155g. The Corbon is hands down superior IMO. I would trust my life to it - the DT - never did and never would. The inconsistency was the first thing that turned me off. Extreme velocity stpreads are the norm for DT.

The 10mm DPX is an awesome round, but many of my .40 rounds surpass it in energy. I want to buy some barnes bullets, but they have no loading data out yet and I don't like charting unknown territory.

As soon as more info is available I plan on trying them out.

Could you use the 155 gr 40 S&W DPX max load as a starting load for the 10mm? There is load data for that. See page 458, Barnes #4. Then using the Hodgdon manual you can see the difference between starting and max loads with each powder for the 155 gr bullet and use that as a guide when increasing the 40 S&W load used as a starting point. I see that most powders are only 1-2 gr between min and max. Since you have to work up loads carefully anyway at least you have a ball park idea of where to start.

Ak.Hiker
10-02-2010, 21:10
Or or a gator....

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/10/1006_051006_pythoneatsgator.html

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/python-vs-alligator-everglades.jpg

I enjoy Florida. Lots of interesting areas in our country for ourdoorsman that is for sure. Nice gator pic. If I have nightmares tonight I am going to blame you boys from Florida.

PghJim
10-02-2010, 22:27
I would like to add my experience with DT and the wrong bullet. I ordered two boxes of 40 S&W 155 GD. The cartridges I received had GD bullets. I shot a couple and weighed one of them to see how much weight it might have lost. To my surprise it weighed 165 grains. I pulled bullets from both boxes and they were all 165 grain. I will say that I made a call to DT and was credited with the purchase and they did not want to see any of the bullets. I felt as if they already knew