EOtech XPS vs 512 on MSAR [Archive] - Glock Talk

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beretta-neo
01-26-2010, 08:30
Tomac was nice enough to let me borrow is RX30 - I am so used to an Eotech on my PS90 - that I just can't get used to a single dot (like the RX30 or an Aimpoint). For me, it takes longer to find, and I tend to move it more in CQC than I do with the larger EOtech reticle.

Anyway - I think I will buy another EOtech for my MSAR - just a matter of the XPS or a 512/517 model.

The XPS reportedly will co witnesses exactly - does the 512 cowitness exactly too, or does it 1/3 co witness. I did see that the 517 does the 1/3 cowitness - but apparently this is because of a built in riser. So, that should put the 512 and the XPS at the exact same height, correct?


I found the stock MSAR optic to sit too low for me. I don't want to have the same issue if the XPS sits lower than a standard EOtech....

mkmckinley
01-26-2010, 11:19
Get the XPS, you can just get a riser if you need it. The XPS is legitimately better in more than one way. I get to borrow one of the older Eotech's for free from my rich uncle and I still went out and bought my own XPS if that's worth anything.

KalashniKEV
01-26-2010, 12:09
The XPS reportedly will co witnesses exactly - does the 512 cowitness exactly too, or does it 1/3 co witness.

You get regular co-witness unless you jump it with one of the risers...

beretta-neo
01-26-2010, 12:56
Get the XPS, you can just get a riser if you need it. The XPS is legitimately better in more than one way. I get to borrow one of the older Eotech's for free from my rich uncle and I still went out and bought my own XPS if that's worth anything.

I just ordered one - I have a 511 EOtech and like it a lot, but hate the battery life issues on the 511. I almost went with the 512 - but the XPS will give me more free room on the rail. And, it will also not suffer from potential battery problems some people suffer from - since the battery on the XPS is sideways.

I was concerned that the XPS viewscreen might be smaller or sit lower - but when I looked at one thru a glass case last week at my gun shop - the glass size is the same. And from reading online today - it doesn't seem to sit lower than a 512.

So, we'll see how it goes :)

PlasticGuy
01-26-2010, 13:21
I ran my MSAR with an EoTech 552 for a little while, but that fat base was in the way when operating the charging handle. I swapped to an Aimpoint after beating up my knuckles during a couple of range trips.

internal
01-26-2010, 14:16
I ran my MSAR with an EoTech 552 for a little while, but that fat base was in the way when operating the charging handle. I swapped to an Aimpoint after beating up my knuckles during a couple of range trips.

Why is your eotech so far back?

PlasticGuy
01-26-2010, 14:20
Why is your eotech so far back?
Anywhere I put it, it was in the way. If it's mounted forward, I had a hard time grabbing the charging handle to begin with. Farther back led to beat up knuckles and a harder time locking the bolt back. It just wasn't the right optic for that platform, in my opinion. The Aimpoint in a 30mm ring works much better for me. My ACOG works great also. Pretty much anything but the EoTech has worked fine for me.

KalashniKEV
01-26-2010, 14:57
Why is your eotech so far back?

You can see more of the world through it the closer it is to your eye. The benefits of a forward reciever mounting is that it balances the weapon better, (usually) maintaining most of the weight in line w/ the mag and BCG... that's if you don't have a super heavy barrel profile or a ton of accessories (or both!).

beretta-neo
01-26-2010, 16:04
You can see more of the world through it the closer it is to your eye. The benefits of a forward reciever mounting is that it balances the weapon better, (usually) maintaining most of the weight in line w/ the mag and BCG... that's if you don't have a super heavy barrel profile or a ton of accessories (or both!).

On some guns, I like the EOtech further away - if give the illusion of the reticle being larger (filling up more of the class). I think this is better for faster CQC, but for long range shots - it is better to have the eotech closer.

I also ordered some magpul fold down sights for back up sights. I plan to leave room for them to fold down on the rail - but I'll have to put them on with the EOtech XPS, and then decide where I like it to sit (and still have room for the charging handle)

KalashniKEV
01-26-2010, 16:30
the illusion of the reticle being larger (filling up more of the class). I think this is better for faster CQC,

Acknowledge, but the ring is already big and I think acquisition is accelerated by how fast your eye picks the reticle up. Centering the target I think would be the same...

Although it's silly to argue about these things...

I do have a FWD mounted EOtech on my 16" gun, but only because I have the 3x magnifier behind it. I could also throw a PVS-14 in the same space, but that's only good for the defense/ static ops.

internal
01-26-2010, 16:38
Anywhere I put it, it was in the way. If it's mounted forward, I had a hard time grabbing the charging handle to begin with. Farther back led to beat up knuckles and a harder time locking the bolt back. It just wasn't the right optic for that platform, in my opinion. The Aimpoint in a 30mm ring works much better for me. My ACOG works great also. Pretty much anything but the EoTech has worked fine for me.

My buddy owns a new 517 and I can't even reproduce what you're talking about.

The EOTECH would have to be all the way to the rear without an BUIS to even get remotely close to what you're talking about.

MADBMW
01-26-2010, 17:34
My buddy owns a new 517 and I can't even reproduce what you're talking about.

The EOTECH would have to be all the way to the rear without an BUIS to even get remotely close to what you're talking about.

Are you operating the chargin handle with you firing hand or you support hand? I could see how the wide and set back 512 would possibly bang knuckes if you are bringing you support hand back to operate the charging handle like you should be. The only time you should be using you firing hand is to lock the bolt back when you have a double feed.

internal
01-26-2010, 18:04
Are you operating the chargin handle with you firing hand or you support hand? I could see how the wide and set back 512 would possibly bang knuckes if you are bringing you support hand back to operate the charging handle like you should be. The only time you should be using you firing hand is to lock the bolt back when you have a double feed.
ROFL I just noticed he wasn't talking about AR's.

NM plasticguy, I am dumb.

vettely
01-26-2010, 20:46
Just got the Eotech XPS and love it :banana:.
Also have a 512 which is a great optic.

PlasticGuy
01-27-2010, 00:13
ROFL I just noticed he wasn't talking about AR's.

NM plasticguy, I am dumb.
No worries. I couldn't figure out what the confusion was, but that makes sense. :supergrin:

fightinfire921
03-01-2010, 13:02
Which XPS would you buy? 2-0, 2-2, 3-0, or 3-2. The prices I found on eBay are anywhere from $430.00 to $482.00. I need to make a choice.
Thanks

beretta-neo
03-01-2010, 14:35
I went with the XPS2-0.

It is the standard eotech reticle (65 MOA circle and 1 MOA dot), and it is the non night sight version.

HAIL CAESAR
03-01-2010, 15:11
You can see more of the world through it the closer it is to your eye.

Actaully the farther you move it forward the less of the EoTech's frame takes up of your vision and the more you see. Especially if you shoot both eyes open, and you should.

KalashniKEV
03-01-2010, 15:18
Actaully the farther you move it forward the less of the EoTech's frame takes up of your vision and the more you see. Especially if you shoot both eyes open, and you should.

Nope.

HAIL CAESAR
03-01-2010, 15:22
Nope.

OK.....:whistling:

kabob983
03-01-2010, 15:28
Fight fight fight!!!...

Sorry, it's a slow day today.

HAIL CAESAR
03-01-2010, 15:34
I ain't fighting. Just used a EoTech for years and have recieved the advise of some of the top trainers in the Country on this one.

For anyone interested in trying, try this before you move your sight and have to rezero.

Take your hand and make the universal "OK" sign with your hand. Now place your hand about two to three inches from you nose and see how much acreage is blocked by your finger and thumb. Now do the same with you hand 8 to 10 inches out and see how much less acreage is taken up by your finger and thumb.

Now try with both eyes open.

You should see how much less prominent your finger and thumb ( EOTech frame simulated) become in your sight picture and how much more you will see.

Now If you really like this try it with your actual rifle and enjoy a whole new seen world.

internal
03-01-2010, 15:40
Ceaser is correct, the more forward the sight is, the easier it will be to acquire with both eyes open.

On the flip side, the more forward to put an eotech, the larger the reticle will appear in the window meaning if its too far forward you'll have have to pay more attention on where you place your cheek weld or you'll have a harder time reacquiring the red dot.

Obviously finding the balance between the two is where it becomes personal preference.

HAIL CAESAR
03-01-2010, 15:59
On the flip side, the more forward to put an eotech, the larger the reticle will appear in the window meaning if its too far forward you'll have have to pay more attention on where you place your cheek weld or you'll have a harder time reacquiring the red dot.

Obviously finding the balance between the two is where it becomes personal preference.

Yeap, there is always the flip side. Six of one and half a dozen of the other. You got to find your happy medium. I have seen a lot of pics of the Canadian SF guys running a EO all the way out on the free float tube right behind the front sight.... They like it, but I never tried it that far out.

MARSH1
03-01-2010, 17:04
Get the XPS, you can just get a riser if you need it. The XPS is legitimately better in more than one way. I get to borrow one of the older Eotech's for free from my rich uncle and I still went out and bought my own XPS if that's worth anything.

XPS with built in 7mm riser will be shiping very soon.

KalashniKEV
03-01-2010, 18:17
I ain't fighting. Just used a EoTech for years and have recieved the advise of some of the top trainers in the Country on this one.

With all due respect, I've been in the game for a bit, and I might know a little more about it...


...Now try with both eyes open.


Irrelevant to begin with, b/c both eyes are always open, and the sight will always ghost.

The issue is with speed, and this is also the reason why mounting a T-1 micro on an AK Ultimak is not half as fast as having a large EOtech window right up front where you need it. It takes time to thread the needle, observe through the optic, and pick up the reticle. Your eye will pick up the reticle sooner and you will be faster the closer and larger the window is.

Reasons to walk the optic out are 3x magnifiers, and the PVS-14 weapons mount. Reasons to go smaller-than-standard are specialized compact applications.

If you don't agree with me, feel free to keep walking the optic out there as far as you want. Now that I've read this thread, I won't try to correct you, I'll just assume that you're running it "Canadian Operator style!!!'

:cool::wavey:

Not worth arguing about though...

HAIL CAESAR
03-01-2010, 18:41
Not arguing either. I have just been schooled at a class about being a window licker. An EOTech window licker at that because I had it so far back. :rofl:

Since I have moved it forward my target acquisition and times have improved. Every top trainer I have talked to said move it as forward as you can, and I ain't arguing with them boys especially if I seen personal improvement.

You are not picking up the reticule per sie, you are picking up a target and with a good cheek weld the dot should be there.

I have since went to the T-1 sight.(Me; Hi, My name is Alan and I have been battery changing free for over a year. And haven't once turned it on or off. Crowd; Hi Al.) It hasn't made one difference to me on "picking up the dot" in anyway except if laying on my sides or back. I keep it as far forward as the rail will allow on my upper.


The "Canadian Operator style!" post was a little uncalled for. I don't do that but if they do and it works for them...all the power to them. You can tell them how ignorant they are face to face if you want.

And if "With all due respect, I've been in the game for a bit, and I might know a little more about it... " then start a world class training outfit yourself. Start by going to M4Carbine and making posts there. Find a guy named Haley and a sorry ass guy named Vickers. Tell them they are full of "stuff".

KalashniKEV
03-01-2010, 19:20
You can tell them how ignorant they are face to face if you want.

I might...


...then start a world class training outfit yourself. Start by going to M4Carbine and making posts there. Find a guy named Haley and a sorry ass guy named Vickers. Tell them they are full of "stuff".

I'm on there. Do you think they would ban me if I told "SimplyDynamic" that his thumb-in"powerstroke" technique was inferior to a "thumbs out and punch it" or that indexing fresh mags on the thumb gets your support hand into a good position faster?

;)

I actually think I should start a world class training outfit, in all honesty, and I've considered it in the past. There's more than one way to properly execute technique, and the reason why people improve so much at these classes is usually because it's the first time they've ever:

1) Put a significant number of rounds downrange
2) Stopped to consider their technique, analyzed their style, and improved
3) Been held accountable to a standard, felt some pressure w/ an instructor and other shooters on the line.

My point is, a person can train that ridiculous Israeli draw w/ your support hand way out there, goofazoid grip on your M4 with your thumb over the top of the handguard, or pulling the trigger with their boner for all I care, so long as they are training and honing technique.

We shall agree to disagree. :patriot:

HAIL CAESAR
03-01-2010, 19:36
I might...



I'm on there. Do you think they would ban me if I told "SimplyDynamic" that his thumb-in"powerstroke" technique was inferior to a "thumbs out and punch it" or that indexing fresh mags on the thumb gets your support hand into a good position faster?

;)

I actually think I should start a world class training outfit, in all honesty, and I've considered it in the past. There's more than one way to properly execute technique, and the reason why people improve so much at these classes is usually because it's the first time they've ever:

1) Put a significant number of rounds downrange
2) Stopped to consider their technique, analyzed their style, and improved
3) Been held accountable to a standard, felt some pressure w/ an instructor and other shooters on the line.

My point is, a person can train that ridiculous Israeli draw w/ your support hand way out there, goofazoid grip on your M4 with your thumb over the top of the handguard, or pulling the trigger with their boner for all I care, so long as they are training and honing technique.

We shall agree to disagree. :patriot:

I think they would burn you to the ground unless you could state why you thought your techniques were better and theirs were inferior AND have real world experience to back up those claim's. (Besides out int my backyard)

Why don't you go over there and try. Please do, and post a link here!

There is a lot of different instructors out there and they all have various "techniques" they have tried and now teach. And I am sure they will evolve as all things do. I have evolved all the way from a flashlight duct taped to a Winchester 30-30, so all things can change.

HAIL CAESAR
03-01-2010, 19:38
And while your at it find something you think Vickers does wrong and tear into him.......

voodoomanx
03-01-2010, 21:29
pulling the trigger with their boner...

at least this train wreck has a "happy ending".

HAIL CAESAR
03-01-2010, 21:34
at least this train wreck has a "happy ending".

That's funny,I don't care who you are!:tongueout:

What was this thread about anyway?:rofl:

KalashniKEV
03-02-2010, 08:48
unless you could state why you thought your techniques were better and theirs were inferior AND have real world experience to back up those claim's. (Besides out int my backyard)


This is the second time you've thrown in that "backyard" quip, and I'm frankly quite puzzled by it. The first time, I almost responded with one of those, "Do you know who I AM???" type posts, which are always lame.

Most of the "Top Instructors" you seem to be in love with are in fact reasonable people, or they wouldn't have got to where they are. If you have the credibility (I do) and the real world experience they are usually happy to engage in a discussion about applied technique, that's actually how their programs are developed.

Where do you think all the Magpul Dynamics techniques would be if some fool shouted down Chris Costa for being just some Coastie? If your technique is sound and can be executed rapidly and effectively, it's GTG.

If you're a multi-cam clad, bearded, tubby-tubby who's just going to run home and post what color socks Chris Costa was wearing before having a long, satisfying wank to the Magpul catalog... well... nobody in the training industry is actually going to say it, but you're a mark... or rather a source of income.

HAIL CAESAR
03-02-2010, 11:43
I didn't mean anything to you personally about "outback in your backyard", just stating it to make a point. If you have been around awhile you know how many "experts" have many ideas that was gleaned from the last time they went out and dumped two mags into a ditch. And that might be the first rifle they have ever owned and the only 2 mags shot, but boy do they have opinions and "real world experience".

Anyway about MD, I have taken a course with them, I actually like Haley more. But I am amazed by the speed they do things.( But maybe that is because I am older.):embarassed:

And I have went over to TOF Barf and was amazed and stupefied by the ignorant cheerleader/rockstar status of Costa. It is silly and I have seen post that folks want to know what they wear down to their skivvies.:upeyes:
I hear you on that and it is sickening. I think all instructors have there "fans" and I admit I have a favorite or two, but the level of this is borderline on...strange...!

Maybe I am a mark. I have taken all kinds of training over the years from all kinds of instructors. First out of requirement for work, then for self betterment, then I found out I actually it and have "fun" and have gone to some as a vacation.


If you are a "somebody" from within the industry then just tell us who you are. It will not be lame at all.

KalashniKEV
03-02-2010, 11:55
If you are a "somebody" from within the industry then just tell us who you are. It will not be lame at all.

Nobody special. Just an old warmaker who hung up the reflector belt. :cool:

I'm doing pretty good at my current gig, but would consider starting a company/ contracting firm for my fun and amusement. B2G only for initial, then maybe build it out to include civilians.

It's fun to scheme on during long meetings when I wish I was running my own show and slinging lead all day. It seems like a logical combination of the two...

:supergrin:

vettely
03-03-2010, 15:25
(back to regularly scheduled programing)

I zeroed my XPS and just like my 512, I really like it. The shorter foot print does make a difference. Also did not add any noticeable weight.