RE: "Car Door" Penetration - Clarification [Archive] - Glock Talk

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doc540
01-28-2010, 13:12
Just to clarify.

CDP (car door penetration) is often discussed in the context of calibers vs barriers

note: "pentration", not "glances off from an angled shot"

What I haven't seen disscussed often is the "construction" of car doors.

One round (any caliber) may sail through a "CD" (car door) with no problems and remain effective.

Another round (any caliber) my not exit the other side of a CD or may exit without remaining effective.

While I may be stating the obvious, again, I don't see it stated often at all:

CD's are not "metal/plastic" skins. They contain many different materials making up many different structures.

It's the (good or bad) luck of the draw whether or not any round short of 50 cal. gets through a door.

There are too many variables like:

1. outer skin material used to construct the door
2. side impact barriers - most modern vehicles have a "cage-like" inner structure, some flat, some bar-like
3. window glass of varying materials and thicknesses
4. window regulator mechanisms of varying materials
5. electronic controls - accuators, connectors, etc with wiring
6. in-door speakers
7. inner door panels of varying materials
8. storage pockets that could contain a multitude of items of varying materials (just one of my door pockets contains a revolver speedloader, a full magazine, a metal flashlight, a window breaker and tire gauge)
9. spare change holders (my driver's door neatly stores $5 worth of metal coins)
10. door frames have different designs and different materials.
11. door locking hardware, rods, levers, connectors, etc.
12. some may even house side impact airbag devices


"Car Door" does not translate "Door Skin".

So, when I read discussions about "door penetration" the first thing that comes to my mind is "what kind of door and through what inside the door?".

Most things just aren't as simple and static as they seem.

HandyMan Hugh
01-28-2010, 13:29
You make some good points. What I remember of car door construction (from my auto mechanic days) places the window regulator mechanism in the forward middle portion of the door. The rear lift arm goes up at an angle toward the rear upper portion of the door. There is still quite a bit of unobstructed area where the driver sits. This especially true of the lower torso and hip area of the driver. Personally, I would not want to have to use a car door as protective cover if I had to remain in the driver's seat.

doc540
01-28-2010, 14:14
Thanks for the feedback.

I've been reading multiple threads about calibers/barriers/penetration, and people argue back and forth about " shooting through a car door" as if it's like sheetrock or any other static barrier.

It isn't.

481
01-28-2010, 14:31
Or to simplify: It's a crap shoot.

:)

uz2bUSMC
01-28-2010, 15:34
What you say is true. I have a pet suburban door I like to shoot. Early 2000 type. The side impact protection is a flat metal ban 'bout an 1/8" thick. I can get my 10mm to penetrate, but the bullet is destroyed... it didn't have anything left. Driver's wounds would be superficial.

LoadedTech
01-28-2010, 15:50
Car doors are very different my make and model, worked on them for 17 years now. An example would be saturn, having a plastic outer door skin that you remove for motor/regulator repair. It does have a crash barrier pipe in the center. Most others are a thin outer shell and thin inner shell with holes to service the regulators. Camaro/firebird uses fiberglass outer/inner with metal piping for crash barrier, so it would depend on the type of door, if glass is up or down. Door panels are all plastic now and if the outer skin is pierced with glass up the door panel most likely wount stop a bullet, unless you have something in the panel, flashlight, flask, bible, that absorbs the bullets energy. Hope I helped.

Ak.Hiker
01-28-2010, 15:56
It is really amazing what a top notch JHP can do as far as penetration goes. When testing out different bullets and loads through steel or very tough wood one of ther very best has been the Nosler Partition Gold. The front 1/3 may sheer off but that partition one third of the way down is tough. They have a very thick jacket below the partition. I have never seen one open up past the partition but I guess it would be possible if they were driven fast enough. Even some FMJ designs will come apart.

DR. HOUSE
01-30-2010, 08:29
dont mean to stomp on your thread doc, BUT, I dont think car door construction is going to matter to much when I fire this at it.

HandyMan Hugh
01-30-2010, 11:39
dont mean to stomp on your thread doc, BUT, I dont think car door construction is going to matter to much when I fire this at it.

True enough. But have you tried to carry that monster under your shirt? :supergrin:

stengun
01-30-2010, 15:07
Howdy,

Car doors, bodies and glass can be tough to shoot through.

This is just another reason why I like to carry a spare mag full of ball ammo when I carry a spare.

This is also a reason why I do not care for a 9mm.

Paul

PersonOfInterest
01-30-2010, 21:07
Howdy,

Car doors, bodies and glass can be tough to shoot through.

This is just another reason why I like to carry a spare mag full of ball ammo when I carry a spare.

This is also a reason why I do not care for a 9mm.

Paul
Ive seen .45s bounce off car door's at certain angles/distances, ive seen hot military 9mm's punch through at those same angles and differences ive also known people whove served in the military who used a 9mm to dispatch gunmen in a car with good results - can beat a good hot 9mm or 357sig for car bodies.

doc540
01-30-2010, 21:21
"....ive also known people who've served in the military who used a 9mm to dispatch gunmen in a car with good results..."

Perhaps you didn't read my initial post.

"Good results" when shooting something like a vehicle can depend on much more than caliber.

PersonOfInterest
01-30-2010, 21:38
"....ive also known people who've served in the military who used a 9mm to dispatch gunmen in a car with good results..."

Perhaps you didn't read my initial post.

"Good results" when shooting something like a vehicle can depend on much more than caliber.
Hey i wasnt disagreeing with you
i wasnt even going to get involved at all
i more pointing out the garbage that constantly flows from stengun's posts thats all. :wavey:

Darkangel1846
01-31-2010, 12:18
Remember the LA shoot out, remember what those 762X39 aks did to those police cars??

mteagle1
01-31-2010, 13:31
When I was a kid with my first .357 I remember shooting at several juck cars and how it didn't perform anything like the stories. Sometimes I could get it to go through both sides of a door and other times it wouldn't. None of them were running so I could really check to see if they would crack an engine block but the few I inspected didn't show signs of a crack. So I guess if I were unlucky enough to be in a shoot out I would try an angle where the engine was between me and the shooter.

When talking about officer involved shootings they are trying more for concealment than cover and reduction of force to the vest should they get hit. Never been shot but that is what the training said but that was 30 years ago.

Eagle22
02-01-2010, 07:43
Buick of truth. Car door testing

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot3.htm

Car glass and bullets
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm

Gunnut 45/454
02-01-2010, 10:23
As a civilain I can think of very few cases that I would be justified in shooting some one in a vehicle! Carjacking is the only one off hand! So the chances of me using just a pistol to stop a vehicle are slim to none! The one time I came close to using my pistol in a vehicle engagement I was armed with a 357 mag. I think if I had to use it it would have performed well!:whistling:

uz2bUSMC
02-01-2010, 10:29
Shooting through your own car is a big issue, folks. Your own windshield or car door, that type of thing.

Ak.Hiker
02-01-2010, 22:45
When I was a kid with my first .357 I remember shooting at several juck cars and how it didn't perform anything like the stories. Sometimes I could get it to go through both sides of a door and other times it wouldn't. None of them were running so I could really check to see if they would crack an engine block but the few I inspected didn't show signs of a crack. So I guess if I were unlucky enough to be in a shoot out I would try an angle where the engine was between me and the shooter.

When talking about officer involved shootings they are trying more for concealment than cover and reduction of force to the vest should they get hit. Never been shot but that is what the training said but that was 30 years ago.

Try some Fiocchi 142 grain FMJTC loads if you want to see some penetration with the 357 Magnum.