The case against the 357SIG [Archive] - Glock Talk

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N/Apower
01-28-2010, 18:46
First, I like the 357SIG. It is the caliber I prefer, actually. However, there are those who feel that the 357SIG is just a 9mm. Well, technically, they are right. Conceptually, it is also hard to argue against the merits of their statement as such.

After looking at teh information on hand, I have concluded that:

The 9mm penetrates almost identically.
The 9mm expands to almost exactly the same diameter in a given loading.

Where then is the advantage to the 357SIG against an animal (hunting), or against a human assailant who is not hiding behind sheet metal (in which case, the superior velocity and identical meplat of the 357SIG would be an advantage)?

Temporary cavity, within the human body, is worthless unless it causes the tearing or rupturing of tissue. Below about 18-2200fps, it is not violent enough to do so, unless the liver, a non-elastic organ, is involved. Ergo, the energy from the 357SIG that causes a slightly larger TC is doing work--moving tissue--but not in a violent enough manner to cause it to tear/be destroyed. Thus this work/energy is wasted on something superflous that is not causing any more blood-loss than the lesser expendature of energy from the 9mm, which has an identical permanent cavity.

Ergo, other than the "fun-factor", or the ability to punch through sheet metal (the FBI sheet-metal tests show the 9mm performing identical to the 357SIG, btw.), what reason is there to give up capacity and tolerate more blast/recoil (even though I find it a very slight increase, it IS an increase), and more wear/tear on the weapon?

I do not have a reason other than I ENJOY the round. Thus-far, I am incapable of arguing that it is terminally superior to a quality 9mm.

Here are my sources with regards to ballistic testing:

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf

http://le.atk.com/pdf/Butte_WBW_5_27_09.pdf

What say you?

JBarbaresi
01-28-2010, 20:05
there are several factors that i consider when looking at a particular caliber for defensive purposes. after shot placement the most important factor is penetration, if you don't reach vital organs in an assailant your caliber is worthless. penetration is very similar in all of the modern day popular calibers.

the next most important factor to me, personally, is muzzle energy. the reason I feel that way is because in a SD situation you want to stop the fight, and stop it as quickly as possible. don't think of energy simply as a creator of temporary cavity, which it is, but also take into account that when a projectile strikes soft tissue like that of a human, the kinetic energy transfer creates a small "shock wave" throughout the body. the more kinetic energy you are able release, the larger the shock wave will be, obviously. I feel that this is the true measure of "knock down power", though I think that term is grossly misused. if you can create enough of a shock wave in the target, whether human or animal, it will disrupt the body's equilibrium and functionality of the organs, and often times will cause even the most dilusional of BG's to stop what they are doing and collect themselves, even if for only a moment. kinetic energy is the reason why rifles are so much more effective in dropping targets using much smaller diameter bullets, and though even the most powerful handgun rounds pale in comparison to rifle rounds the more energy release you can get, the better. muzzle energy transfer is where the 357 SIG excels, falling short only to the 10mm in comparison to the conceivable SD loads.

the next most important factor is bullet size, the larger the bullet the larger the hole in the BG and the more chance to cause internal damage and bleeding. the only reason this is not further up on my list of important factors is because bleeding and internal injury by themselves don't necessarily lead to a quick stop. i have read that even if a heart is completely destroyed by a bullet there is enough oxygen in the bloodstream to keep the brain functioning for an additional 15-20 seconds, long enough to continue an attack and cause serious harm if not death. much like penetration, if you look at ballistic testing between all the major SD calibers in modern loadings there is not an overwhelming difference in diameter between them once expanded.

back to the age old comment that if there was any concise winner in terms of handgun calibers there would only be one caliber to choose from. everyone has their own preference and above is my reasoning for favoring the 357 SIG over others. My next choice after 357 is 9mm because of the extra capacity and controllability. In my opinion there is no statistical reason to choose .40 over 357 with the exception of ammo availability, and when you order online 357 is just as cheap and often times more available since there is less demand currently.

just my thoughts.

dw_player
01-28-2010, 20:25
First, I like the 357SIG. It is the caliber I prefer, actually.

I'm certainly no ballistics expert, but I think you closed your case. If you prefer it, if you shoot it well, what's it matter?
You'll shoot it better because you'll practice more because you enjoy it.
It's a self fulfilling prophecy.
Doesn't matter to me at all what others think. I do know my G32 goes 'bang' louder than most other pistols when I'm at the range.
:cool:
It's a fast flat round for me that I shoot better than my G19 or my P229 in .40. Is it 'better'? Is it 'worse'? With the exception of price and availability of ammo (which I choose to deal with) it's my personal choice. I shot this gun better right out of the box than any other I own or have tried.
That's my case for me.
YMMV of course....

G-31
01-28-2010, 22:54
I feel that many of the tests people use to compare the two are very misleading, they compare 9mm +p to regular .357 sig loads and when they talk about the lifespan of each they'll never be shooting these +p rounds so they can say the 9mm pistol lasts longer. They are the same bullet but it's not about that it's about the cartridge and what this specific cartridge allows the bullet to do. I've heard many arguments over the 9mm +p and +p+ being equivalent to the .357 sig but the .357 handles these pressures normally and can be pushed further too. For someone looking to compare their 9mm pressures and velocity to my .357 I would laugh at them because the 9mm +p will cost much more and end up wearing out their pistol much faster. As for the ballistics I feel gelatin does not do justice when showing a rounds capability; the human body is not the same and I'd rather have my hard hitting .357 than a 9mm. Also the bottleneck drastically reduces jamming.

Mrs_Esterhouse
01-28-2010, 23:54
Winchester, Remington, Speer and Federal all underload the 357SIG to 9mm+p levels. If you look at Double Tap, Cor-Bon, and Buffalo Bore, the 357SIG blows 9mm+p away by 150 to 200FPS.

N/Apower
01-29-2010, 00:28
Winchester, Remington, Speer and Federal all underload the 357SIG to 9mm+p levels. If you look at Double Tap, Cor-Bon, and Buffalo Bore, the 357SIG blows 9mm+p away by 150 to 200FPS.

I agree, but this is still less than fast enough to cause any damage from a temporary cavity. Anyone who has seen the human body in practice knows that a "shock wave" won't be transmitted far at all. There is so much deadspace, etc. in the thoracic cavity that it makes this theory ludacris. Further, anyone who has taken a knife to internal organs will tell you that a little "shock-wave" isn't going to damage them.

Look at a pro-boxer when he takes a shot to the ribs. He keeps right on going, and I guarantee that more momentum was transfered by that fist than by a bullet.

N/Apower
01-29-2010, 00:32
there are several factors that i consider when looking at a particular caliber for defensive purposes. after shot placement the most important factor is penetration, if you don't reach vital organs in an assailant your caliber is worthless. penetration is very similar in all of the modern day popular calibers.

the next most important factor to me, personally, is muzzle energy. the reason I feel that way is because in a SD situation you want to stop the fight, and stop it as quickly as possible. don't think of energy simply as a creator of temporary cavity, which it is, but also take into account that when a projectile strikes soft tissue like that of a human, the kinetic energy transfer creates a small "shock wave" throughout the body. the more kinetic energy you are able release, the larger the shock wave will be, obviously. I feel that this is the true measure of "knock down power", though I think that term is grossly misused. if you can create enough of a shock wave in the target, whether human or animal, it will disrupt the body's equilibrium and functionality of the organs, and often times will cause even the most dilusional of BG's to stop what they are doing and collect themselves, even if for only a moment. kinetic energy is the reason why rifles are so much more effective in dropping targets using much smaller diameter bullets, and though even the most powerful handgun rounds pale in comparison to rifle rounds the more energy release you can get, the better. muzzle energy transfer is where the 357 SIG excels, falling short only to the 10mm in comparison to the conceivable SD loads.

the next most important factor is bullet size, the larger the bullet the larger the hole in the BG and the more chance to cause internal damage and bleeding. the only reason this is not further up on my list of important factors is because bleeding and internal injury by themselves don't necessarily lead to a quick stop. i have read that even if a heart is completely destroyed by a bullet there is enough oxygen in the bloodstream to keep the brain functioning for an additional 15-20 seconds, long enough to continue an attack and cause serious harm if not death. much like penetration, if you look at ballistic testing between all the major SD calibers in modern loadings there is not an overwhelming difference in diameter between them once expanded.

back to the age old comment that if there was any concise winner in terms of handgun calibers there would only be one caliber to choose from. everyone has their own preference and above is my reasoning for favoring the 357 SIG over others. My next choice after 357 is 9mm because of the extra capacity and controllability. In my opinion there is no statistical reason to choose .40 over 357 with the exception of ammo availability, and when you order online 357 is just as cheap and often times more available since there is less demand currently.

just my thoughts.

How is that shock-wave going to cross an air-filled vacity? The thoracic cavity has a lot of 'em.

At handgun velocities (even 357SIG), this shock wave is not violent enough to destroy tissue. My roommate was shot in the upper leg with a 357SIG, and it didn't do anything other than go in and come out and make a hole about the size of a dime going in or coming out. Keep in mind, there was nothing between the nerve and the bullet but a few inches muscle and a little bit of fat, and the guy was around 9% body-fat when this happened, very close to a homogenous, dense medium. Should conduct a shock-wave perfectly. If it couldn't create a shock-wave violent enough to disrupt a large nerve (which is a structure proven to be succeptible to shock), then it's not going to disrupt the heart with a gut shot or something. It was a FMJ-FP, a flat-point bullet should create a nice "shock-wave", in theory, yet it didn't. Passed within a few inches of his sciatic nerve and didn't do a darn thing. Guy drove himself to the hospital. No, shock-wave from a handgun velocity round is laughable.

Even rifle-rounds don't always do it. If the M855 fails to fragment, it is a poor man-stopper, even though it may be impacting at 23-2500fps (at 4-500 yards). Lots of controversy over that caused the adoption of the MK262 for some usage, due to it's ability to fragment further out, thus creating a larger permanent cavity.

NitLion
01-29-2010, 04:24
At the terminal end, yes.....it's hairsplitting. At the user end is where I see the difference. When you say a "quality 9mm" round, you are referring to a +P or +P+. I agree with G-31 - no one I know who carries 9mm "premium" rounds is practicing substantially with them....they are using standard loads. For instance, in 357sig, I can use Speer Lawman to practice and Speer Gold Dots for carry and they will have the same feel and trajectory. Not so with the 9mm. I also like the accuracy of the 357sig...

N/Apower
01-29-2010, 10:22
At the terminal end, yes.....it's hairsplitting. At the user end is where I see the difference. When you say a "quality 9mm" round, you are referring to a +P or +P+. I agree with G-31 - no one I know who carries 9mm "premium" rounds is practicing substantially with them....they are using standard loads. For instance, in 357sig, I can use Speer Lawman to practice and Speer Gold Dots for carry and they will have the same feel and trajectory. Not so with the 9mm. I also like the accuracy of the 357sig...

The RA9T loading, which is standard pressure, is also a "premium" 9mm round. Check it out on the comparison tool I linked. VERY good performance.

I agree with your end-user ideas.

My main gist, and sadness, stemmed from the facts I outlined in my first post. I was quite let-down to see that "my" caliber was just a glorified 9mm on the recieving end. I posted this in hopes of someone logically disproving that.

Mrs_Esterhouse
01-29-2010, 10:51
I agree, but this is still less than fast enough to cause any damage from a temporary cavity. Anyone who has seen the human body in practice knows that a "shock wave" won't be transmitted far at all. There is so much deadspace, etc. in the thoracic cavity that it makes this theory ludacris. Further, anyone who has taken a knife to internal organs will tell you that a little "shock-wave" isn't going to damage them.

Look at a pro-boxer when he takes a shot to the ribs. He keeps right on going, and I guarantee that more momentum was transfered by that fist than by a bullet.

I'm not talking about shock waves. The faster that 125gr bullet goes the more energy it has, and it's a logarithmic increase in energy - not linear. More energy means more penetration of hard barriers. If we are shooting someone directly with 9mm and 357SIG, the results are about 2" more penetration with the 357SIG but the same expansion diameter. If we are talking about defeating intermediate barriers before striking the target, 357SIG wins over 9mm every time.

357SIG:
On steel - www.intrencik.com/357sig.htm
On armor - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeowmnioCKQ
On gel - http://ifile.it/6snbw4t/speer.gw.le.pdf
On glass - http://fkonst.mylivepage.ru/file/183/548_SPEER_Gold_Dot_357_SIG.wmv

JBarbaresi
01-29-2010, 12:13
The RA9T loading, which is standard pressure, is also a "premium" 9mm round. Check it out on the comparison tool I linked. VERY good performance.

I agree with your end-user ideas.

My main gist, and sadness, stemmed from the facts I outlined in my first post. I was quite let-down to see that "my" caliber was just a glorified 9mm on the recieving end. I posted this in hopes of someone logically disproving that.

just like every other discussion on caliber this one is not going anywhere and would probably be better suited in the caliber corner forum. by your own admission handgun rounds are not ideal for killing people or causing serious injury to organs.

you've already made your mind up that 9mm is just as effective as 357 so just carry 9mm if that is what you are comfortable with. nothing else should be important.

the biggest physical difference between 9mm and 357, as i stated earlier, is the velocity and therefore energy transfer. if you don't think an extra 200-300 ft lbs of kinetic energy at the muzzle is sufficient to POSSIBLY make a difference in an SD situation, you have your answer that there is no reason to carry 357.

this is the reason 9mm is far more popular than 357 and .40 is much more popular than 10mm. also the reason some people don't carry any SD tools, while others carry a BUG in addition to their EDC. its all about your individual comfort level.

dahahn
01-29-2010, 12:32
I personally just ought a 357SIG because of several papers I read on arxiv.org (a site I go to for physics papers). Several papers on arxiv.org equate pressure waves to minute hemorrhaging in the brain, regardless of shot location, and as such equate pressure wave theory with stopping power of a round. In these tests, 357SIG has a 986 PSI pressure wave, compared to a 305 PSI pressure wave from a 9mm round. Secondly, the same paper explored stopping power by shooting 10 deer, 5 with each caliber. They then measured the distance the deer ran after being shot to determine which caliber was the quickest to cause death through hemorrhaging. The 357SIG had half the distance that the 9mm had, thus indicating it brought the deer down faster.

Are these definitive? Nope, but it's enough for me to carry a 357SIG over a 9mm.

http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0702/0702107.pdf

N/Apower
01-29-2010, 13:03
I personally just ought a 357SIG because of several papers I read on arxiv.org (a site I go to for physics papers). Several papers on arxiv.org equate pressure waves to minute hemorrhaging in the brain, regardless of shot location, and as such equate pressure wave theory with stopping power of a round. In these tests, 357SIG has a 986 PSI pressure wave, compared to a 305 PSI pressure wave from a 9mm round. Secondly, the same paper explored stopping power by shooting 10 deer, 5 with each caliber. They then measured the distance the deer ran after being shot to determine which caliber was the quickest to cause death through hemorrhaging. The 357SIG had half the distance that the 9mm had, thus indicating it brought the deer down faster.

Are these definitive? Nope, but it's enough for me to carry a 357SIG over a 9mm.

http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0702/0702107.pdf



If there WAS a pressure-spike in the circulatory system capable of damaging the brain, the occular/retinal vessels as well as venous valves and other pressure-sensetive structures would show evidence of it.

Further, my roommate's fully-functional sciatic nerve, mere inches of solid muscle away from his 357SIG gun-shot wound, serve to dissuade me from this notion.

HOWEVER...we can all agree that a 1.25" broadhead physically destroys a larger amount of venous/arterial structures than any handgun bullet. Thus making my informal findings here, VERY interesting. You will note a definite trend.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=10&f=23&t=631497

There is a lot that we don't know, and a lot that seems subjective.

ETA: Okay, I skimmed your link. The information, in my opinion, is unprofessional and not suitable to act upon. Here is why:

There was a VERY broad range of values in the results (not so bad except for the fact that it was a sample of FIVE for each round tested).
There was no pre-set alpha level.
There was no data to predict effective sample-size.
There were VERY few data points (an arbitrary sample size of 5 for each round is laughable).
There is no CI
There is no NNT
There are a whole lot of other lacking things too. The only meaningful things in favor of this farce that I can see is that the mean was given instead of the average, and the fact that sample-size was listed as a limitation. In which case one can ask, why present results that are so limited? It's like me saying my friend's 'vette was totalled, and it rolled a couple of times, yet my friend has no broken bones, therefor vettes that roll at highway speed are designed well enough to prevent broken bones. Why would I even bother asserting this? (true story, by the way. Hydroplaned the other day).

This lack of proper data was camouflouged (poorly) by inundating the reader with expansion, penetration, time, and other values.

I was forced to endure a 300 level reasearch lecture last semester and I hated every minute of it, even though I made an "A" in the class. Damned if I won't apply a little of what I slaved over at least once in my life, lol.

If this paper had been submitted to my instructor, it would rate an "F" for lack of meaningful data, insufficient sample-size, etc.

If I were to make statements regarding things based on sample-sizes this small, think of how skewed things would look? Totally worthless. That is like polling 5 men and 5 women on what their favorite hair-color on the opposite sex is and then stating "Men prefer XXXX hair color and women prefer XXXX hair color." Completely rediculous. The sample size would be a joke, and so would the results.

IF you have ever started an on-line poll and checked on it regularly, you will notice that it takes a lot longer for trends to emerge. Something in the lead at response#10 may be dead-last by response #1,000.

N/Apower
01-29-2010, 13:05
just like every other discussion on caliber this one is not going anywhere and would probably be better suited in the caliber corner forum. by your own admission handgun rounds are not ideal for killing people or causing serious injury to organs.

you've already made your mind up that 9mm is just as effective as 357 so just carry 9mm if that is what you are comfortable with. nothing else should be important.

the biggest physical difference between 9mm and 357, as i stated earlier, is the velocity and therefore energy transfer. if you don't think an extra 200-300 ft lbs of kinetic energy at the muzzle is sufficient to POSSIBLY make a difference in an SD situation, you have your answer that there is no reason to carry 357.

this is the reason 9mm is far more popular than 357 and .40 is much more popular than 10mm. also the reason some people don't carry any SD tools, while others carry a BUG in addition to their EDC. its all about your individual comfort level.


I have stated that I like the 357SIG. Regardless of whether it is or is not superior, I like to think it is. The PDF file posted earlier showing expansion/penetration was very enlightening. It just gives me pause when people at ATK as well as Dr. Roberts and others say it offers nothing over the 9mm.

Also, if one goes to the links I posted, you will see that the same load tested in the PDF file linked only managed 12.25" in bare gel in ATK's test. That is over 5" of difference. That's quite a bit. I wonder what's up with that.

N/Apower
01-29-2010, 13:23
I'm not talking about shock waves. The faster that 125gr bullet goes the more energy it has, and it's a logarithmic increase in energy - not linear. More energy means more penetration of hard barriers. If we are shooting someone directly with 9mm and 357SIG, the results are about 2" more penetration with the 357SIG but the same expansion diameter. If we are talking about defeating intermediate barriers before striking the target, 357SIG wins over 9mm every time.

357SIG:
On steel - www.intrencik.com/357sig.htm (http://www.intrencik.com/357sig.htm)
On armor - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeowmnioCKQ
On gel - http://ifile.it/6snbw4t/speer.gw.le.pdf
On glass - http://fkonst.mylivepage.ru/file/183/548_SPEER_Gold_Dot_357_SIG.wmv

Other links were awesome, but I didn't understand the "on armor" link. It showed the ST plate defeating 9mm and 357SIG and the only thing they shot the other plates with was 357SIG so there was no comparison. No inferences can be made from this particular test, imho.

Mrs_Esterhouse
01-29-2010, 15:06
Other links were awesome, but I didn't understand the "on armor" link. It showed the ST plate defeating 9mm and 357SIG and the only thing they shot the other plates with was 357SIG so there was no comparison. No inferences can be made from this particular test, imho.

Yeah I understand. What I infer from it is that the competing plate would, in fact, stop 9, 40, 45, which is why they chose the 357SIG cartridge. I have no proof of that, but that's my guess as to why they chose the 357SIG over the other rounds.

N/Apower
01-29-2010, 15:47
Yeah I understand. What I infer from it is that the competing plate would, in fact, stop 9, 40, 45, which is why they chose the 357SIG cartridge. I have no proof of that, but that's my guess as to why they chose the 357SIG over the other rounds.


Possibly, I agree that could be inferred. I found a video you might like. I liked it anyways.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7qU09eo1Bk

Mrs_Esterhouse
01-29-2010, 16:31
Possibly, I agree that could be inferred. I found a video you might like. I liked it anyways.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7qU09eo1Bk

Yeah, that's a great one. Can't believe I forgot to add that to the lineup!

JBarbaresi
01-29-2010, 17:21
I have stated that I like the 357SIG. Regardless of whether it is or is not superior, I like to think it is. The PDF file posted earlier showing expansion/penetration was very enlightening. It just gives me pause when people at ATK as well as Dr. Roberts and others say it offers nothing over the 9mm.

Also, if one goes to the links I posted, you will see that the same load tested in the PDF file linked only managed 12.25" in bare gel in ATK's test. That is over 5" of difference. That's quite a bit. I wonder what's up with that.

this thread continues to baffle me. what it appears like, and I could be wrong, is that you have done a whole lot of research to substantiate the claim "357 offers nothing over the 9mm" because you are second guessing your decision to carry/use 357 SIG. you are not willing to accept the fact that an increase in velocity is what gives 357 SIG the advantage, no matter how small it might be. Is it enough to bother switching to 357 if you already own a 9mm? that's up to you to decide, there is no night and day difference between any of the handgun calibers on paper. if you like the 357 and you have a platform to shoot it from, who cares how it compares to the other calibers when there is so little difference between any of them? are you going to sell your 357 if someone agrees with your assertion that it is essentially the same as a 9mm?

i just don't understand the point of this thread.

N/Apower
01-29-2010, 17:29
this thread continues to baffle me. what it appears like, and I could be wrong, is that you have done a whole lot of research to substantiate the claim "357 offers nothing over the 9mm" because you are second guessing your decision to carry/use 357 SIG. you are not willing to accept the fact that an increase in velocity is what gives 357 SIG the advantage, no matter how small it might be. Is it enough to bother switching to 357 if you already own a 9mm? that's up to you to decide, there is no night and day difference between any of the handgun calibers on paper. if you like the 357 and you have a platform to shoot it from, who cares how it compares to the other calibers when there is so little difference between any of them? are you going to sell your 357 if someone agrees with your assertion that it is essentially the same as a 9mm?

i just don't understand the point of this thread.

This thread was intended to serve several points.

1. Accurately portray the abilities of the 357SIG regarding terminal performance.
2. See if there is something I missed in this research I have done.
3. See why others chose the 357SIG over the 9mm.
4. Possibly garner some real-life experiences from someone who is part of a department that uses it and why they use it.

I have already stated that I will happily continue to use my 357SIG regardless.

JBarbaresi
01-29-2010, 19:32
This thread was intended to serve several points.

1. Accurately portray the abilities of the 357SIG regarding terminal performance.
2. See if there is something I missed in this research I have done.
3. See why others chose the 357SIG over the 9mm.
4. Possibly garner some real-life experiences from someone who is part of a department that uses it and why they use it.

I have already stated that I will happily continue to use my 357SIG regardless.

you are not missing anything in your research. you are likely to be able to find studies and statistics "proving" any particular caliber of your choosing to be the best when they are all shot in controlled environments. this is due to the fact that all handgun calibers are so close in comparison. two local PDs to me have chosen to use 357, Richmond PD and VA State PD. From everything I have read about shootings by those agencies they seem to speak very favorable of its "one stop shot" capabiliteis, whatever that means in reality.

alot of people look at the 357's barrier penetration as merely "the ability to shoot through car doors" or other metal obstructions like the steel plates in those links. but it also applies to other hard obstructions like bones as well. i suppose if you had a BG who was completely naked standing squarely in front of you perfectly still with his arms raised out to his sides that all calibers would have the same effect on him (this is essentially what ballistics gel testing is). but in real life BG's wear clothing, sometimes heavy clothing like thick leather coats, and during a real life struggle they will rarely be facing you directly without extremeties flailing about. this is why i choose 357 as a SD round, it has the ability to not only penetrate into bare gelatin, but also to continue to penetrate after passing through obstructions like heavy clothing (beyond the 4 layer denim media usually used in controlled testing) and bone (should a round strike a BG's arm raised in a defensive posture before hitting his torso). there are also many angles a BG could turn at that would cause a round to hit bones prior to finding its way to the vital organs.

don't get me wrong, i would be perfectly comfortable carrying my G19 for SD, and I did for quite a while before purchasing a G32. for me that 357 SIG cartridge gives just a little more bang for the buck without sacrificing a terrible amount of control or capacity. is it truly needed? who knows, but it can't hurt to have more than you need as opposed to not enough.

N/Apower
01-29-2010, 23:00
you are not missing anything in your research. you are likely to be able to find studies and statistics "proving" any particular caliber of your choosing to be the best when they are all shot in controlled environments. this is due to the fact that all handgun calibers are so close in comparison. two local PDs to me have chosen to use 357, Richmond PD and VA State PD. From everything I have read about shootings by those agencies they seem to speak very favorable of its "one stop shot" capabiliteis, whatever that means in reality.

alot of people look at the 357's barrier penetration as merely "the ability to shoot through car doors" or other metal obstructions like the steel plates in those links. but it also applies to other hard obstructions like bones as well. i suppose if you had a BG who was completely naked standing squarely in front of you perfectly still with his arms raised out to his sides that all calibers would have the same effect on him (this is essentially what ballistics gel testing is). but in real life BG's wear clothing, sometimes heavy clothing like thick leather coats, and during a real life struggle they will rarely be facing you directly without extremeties flailing about. this is why i choose 357 as a SD round, it has the ability to not only penetrate into bare gelatin, but also to continue to penetrate after passing through obstructions like heavy clothing (beyond the 4 layer denim media usually used in controlled testing) and bone (should a round strike a BG's arm raised in a defensive posture before hitting his torso). there are also many angles a BG could turn at that would cause a round to hit bones prior to finding its way to the vital organs.

don't get me wrong, i would be perfectly comfortable carrying my G19 for SD, and I did for quite a while before purchasing a G32. for me that 357 SIG cartridge gives just a little more bang for the buck without sacrificing a terrible amount of control or capacity. is it truly needed? who knows, but it can't hurt to have more than you need as opposed to not enough.

I have heard from officers that have used the 357SIG on dogs that it does VERY well compared to the 9mm loads they were using (usually 147gr). This does something for the "shock" theorists, considering that the 147gr 9mm JHP in modern form expands/penetrates just as well in soft-tissue as the 357SIG, sometimes better.

The more I look at terminal ballistics, the less I think we really know.

Wildkow
02-03-2010, 12:23
Has anyone mentioned the reliability of feeding a bottle-neck pistol cartridge as a reason to choose the .357 SIG over the 9mm?

Beware Owner
02-05-2010, 12:22
Can't remember where, but I was reading some police officer comments on how the .357 Sig needs less bullets to stop violent felons and dogs. It appears that the extra capacity of the 9 is not as much of a perk than it is a necessity. You HAVE to hit more times with the 9, whereas they have noticed that one hit'll sit 'em, for the most part. The Sig will go through a barrier and hit/penetrate like it's nobody's business. That means a lot to me.

Black Ice
02-05-2010, 15:03
...:smoking:.
..And don't forget, Quicker follow-up shots with the 357 sig.

Mrs_Esterhouse
02-05-2010, 16:03
...:smoking:.
..And don't forget, Quicker follow-up shots with the 357 sig.
You don't need follow up shots with 357SIG. :whistling:

Beware Owner
02-05-2010, 16:17
You don't need follow up shots with 357SIG. :whistling:

That's what makes it all the more enticing!

G-31
02-05-2010, 16:33
You don't need follow up shots with 357SIG. :whistling:

Well put.

NitLion
02-06-2010, 05:37
Heres the case FOR the sig...especially if a vicious air compressor attacks:winkie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7qU09eo1Bk

I haven't even read all the gobbedy-gook, but while this discussion has gone on, I've bought two more .357 sigs:supergrin:

N/Apower
02-06-2010, 12:03
Heres the case FOR the sig...especially if a vicious air compressor attacks:winkie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7qU09eo1Bk

I haven't even read all the gobbedy-gook, but while this discussion has gone on, I've bought two more .357 sigs:supergrin:

Your theory is probably just full of hot air. :cool:

However, I await the return of my P226 Elite ST from GGI with baited breath!

CynicX
02-08-2010, 20:13
I did a google search and I found this.

First off I like to mention these are probably some of the smartest individuals I've ever seen (sarcasm intended).

http://www.break.com/usercontent/2009/3/an-Idiot-695169.html

Any .357sig round with that particular vest would have made that video much more interesting with a much more dramatic end.

Point of the matter is there are obvious ballistic differences between a 9mm and .357sig. The obvious being .357 sig zip through most vest while 9mm gets by few/none.

I'd HIGHLY recommend someone go "pinking" with one before reverting to numbers found online. It is a very potent round and I like both, however I did trade my G17 in for a G32. Shooting it at distance is very impressive too, I can see why some government agencies and law enforcement would prefer it.

N/Apower
02-10-2010, 02:32
I did a google search and I found this.

First off I like to mention these are probably some of the smartest individuals I've ever seen (sarcasm intended).

http://www.break.com/usercontent/2009/3/an-Idiot-695169.html

Any .357sig round with that particular vest would have made that video much more interesting with a much more dramatic end.

Point of the matter is there are obvious ballistic differences between a 9mm and .357sig. The obvious being .357 sig zip through most vest while 9mm gets by few/none.

I'd HIGHLY recommend someone go "pinking" with one before reverting to numbers found online. It is a very potent round and I like both, however I did trade my G17 in for a G32. Shooting it at distance is very impressive too, I can see why some government agencies and law enforcement would prefer it.


The light IIA stuff isn't going to do a whole lot, but the newer issue stuff out there will stop a 357SIG round. If you want to punch vests, the 5.7x28 is the way to go, I just don't like that round really. People are shooting 10-15 year-old technology with the 357SIG and proclaiming it a vest-killer. Sure, on mid 90's vests it's hell. However, this is not the mid 90's.

Beware Owner
02-14-2010, 13:35
The light IIA stuff isn't going to do a whole lot, but the newer issue stuff out there will stop a 357SIG round. If you want to punch vests, the 5.7x28 is the way to go, I just don't like that round really. People are shooting 10-15 year-old technology with the 357SIG and proclaiming it a vest-killer. Sure, on mid 90's vests it's hell. However, this is not the mid 90's.

What is the new issue stuff? Level IIA still doesn't stop a .357 Sig round.

Minimum Recommended...

...for the vast majority of threats encountered on the street, though you would sustain more blunt trauma injury than Level II or III-A. The thinnest and best for concealability and comfort.

Beware Owner
02-14-2010, 13:37
9 mm FMJ at ~1,400 fps
(~427 mps)
(e.g., sub-machine-gun velocity)

.44 Magnum Lead Semi-Wadcutter at ~1,400 fps (~427 mps).

The highest blunt trauma protection rating in soft body armor. The best for very high-risk situations to cover more of the uncommon or unusual threats.
Minimizes blunt trauma injury to allow more effective return fire.

N/Apower
02-15-2010, 04:20
What is the new issue stuff? Level IIA still doesn't stop a .357 Sig round.

Minimum Recommended...

...for the vast majority of threats encountered on the street, though you would sustain more blunt trauma injury than Level II or III-A. The thinnest and best for concealability and comfort.

Most agencies issue IIIA for normal duty wear, IIA is for under-cover work. All the cops I see where I live are sporting IIIA. IIIA is going to stop a 357SIG.

Yeah, getting shot is going to hurt, regardless.

Beware Owner
02-15-2010, 08:55
Most agencies issue IIIA for normal duty wear, IIA is for under-cover work. All the cops I see where I live are sporting IIIA. IIIA is going to stop a 357SIG.

Yeah, getting shot is going to hurt, regardless.

For what I see, it'll stop a 9mm bullet going at 1,400 fps. A .357 Sig can top that.

G33
02-16-2010, 09:41
Hey, we need .357!
.40 guys want to close their section.
:wow::supergrin:

1SGMP
02-16-2010, 13:18
First, I like the 357SIG. It is the caliber I prefer, actually. However, there are those who feel that the 357SIG is just a 9mm. Well, technically, they are right. Conceptually, it is also hard to argue against the merits of their statement as such.

After looking at teh information on hand, I have concluded that:

The 9mm penetrates almost identically.
The 9mm expands to almost exactly the same diameter in a given loading.

Where then is the advantage to the 357SIG against an animal (hunting), or against a human assailant who is not hiding behind sheet metal (in which case, the superior velocity and identical meplat of the 357SIG would be an advantage)?

Temporary cavity, within the human body, is worthless unless it causes the tearing or rupturing of tissue. Below about 18-2200fps, it is not violent enough to do so, unless the liver, a non-elastic organ, is involved. Ergo, the energy from the 357SIG that causes a slightly larger TC is doing work--moving tissue--but not in a violent enough manner to cause it to tear/be destroyed. Thus this work/energy is wasted on something superflous that is not causing any more blood-loss than the lesser expendature of energy from the 9mm, which has an identical permanent cavity.

Ergo, other than the "fun-factor", or the ability to punch through sheet metal (the FBI sheet-metal tests show the 9mm performing identical to the 357SIG, btw.), what reason is there to give up capacity and tolerate more blast/recoil (even though I find it a very slight increase, it IS an increase), and more wear/tear on the weapon?

I do not have a reason other than I ENJOY the round. Thus-far, I am incapable of arguing that it is terminally superior to a quality 9mm.

Here are my sources with regards to ballistic testing:

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf

http://le.atk.com/pdf/Butte_WBW_5_27_09.pdf

What say you?
Hi
Correct me if I am wrong but the 357 sig was developed to mimic the ballistics of the 357 magnum. Correct?? If this is correct then the 357 Sig is far superior to the 9mm. I do not currently own a 357 Sig (I will have a G-32 this thursday). But I do have several 9mm, 40 cal and 45acp Glocks. From what I have been reading the 357 Sig is performing very very well on the streets. Virginia State Police and the Texas Dept of Safety report good results. However, a Dept in Northern Mass several yrs ago had a Shooting with their issued sig 229's in 357 Sig. The BG took about 4 direct solid hits with the 357 Sig before he expired. I recently attended a Range master Course where the several of the Students shot their issued weapon and ammo thru the passanger side door of a Ford Taurus. Each student fired four rounds with their Duty ammo, ONLY the 9mm and the 357 Sig penetrated through the passanger side door,through the interior of the vehicle and exited through the drivers side door. The student shooting a 45acp was using 230 grain HST, the 40 cal shooter was shooting 165 grain SXT the 357 Sig shooter was shooting 125 grain GDHP and the 9mm was shooting 124grain GDHP. I was somewhat amazed being a 45acp guy for a long time. I know I know, door results are not human results, But i thought it was worth mentioning. Again I do NOT have a 357 Sig yet, But I will soon and I anticipate this will be my new carry piece.
Out here
1SG

Three-Five-Seven
02-16-2010, 13:24
The 357 sig seeks out, and destroys evil. Just point the gun anywhere away from yourself and the magical powers of this fine cartridge will locate evil doers and put them to rest. No other pistol round has this amazing, almost supernatural power.

There are estimates that the overall amount of evil in the world has dropped by over 20% since this cartridge has come into common use.

Often times, the person in possession of a 357 sig pistol has no need to deploy it because evil doers sense its presence and go elsewhere to carry out their dismal deeds.

Some have reported that merely carrying a single round of 357 sig ammunition in their pocket wards off criminal activity. Now, that's a potent pistol round!!!

Beware Owner
02-16-2010, 13:28
The 357 sig seeks out, and destroys evil. Just point the gun anywhere away from yourself and the magical powers of this fine cartridge will locate evil doers and put them to rest. No other pistol round has this amazing, almost supernatural power.

There are estimates that the overall amount of evil in the world has dropped by over 20% since this cartridge has come into common use.

Often times, the person in possession of a 357 sig pistol has no need to deploy it because evil doers sense its presence and go elsewhere to carry out their dismal deeds.

Some have reported that merely carrying a single round of 357 sig ammunition in their pocket wards off criminal activity. Now, that's a potent pistol round!!!

:rofl: Hey, don't tell everyone our secrets!

JBarbaresi
02-16-2010, 19:01
Hi
Correct me if I am wrong but the 357 sig was developed to mimic the ballistics of the 357 magnum. Correct?? If this is correct then the 357 Sig is far superior to the 9mm. I do not currently own a 357 Sig (I will have a G-32 this thursday). But I do have several 9mm, 40 cal and 45acp Glocks. From what I have been reading the 357 Sig is performing very very well on the streets. Virginia State Police and the Texas Dept of Safety report good results. However, a Dept in Northern Mass several yrs ago had a Shooting with their issued sig 229's in 357 Sig. The BG took about 4 direct solid hits with the 357 Sig before he expired. I recently attended a Range master Course where the several of the Students shot their issued weapon and ammo thru the passanger side door of a Ford Taurus. Each student fired four rounds with their Duty ammo, ONLY the 9mm and the 357 Sig penetrated through the passanger side door,through the interior of the vehicle and exited through the drivers side door. The student shooting a 45acp was using 230 grain HST, the 40 cal shooter was shooting 165 grain SXT the 357 Sig shooter was shooting 125 grain GDHP and the 9mm was shooting 124grain GDHP. I was somewhat amazed being a 45acp guy for a long time. I know I know, door results are not human results, But i thought it was worth mentioning. Again I do NOT have a 357 Sig yet, But I will soon and I anticipate this will be my new carry piece.
Out here
1SG

45acp and 40 have become notorious for poor barrier penetration due to their large sectional density(in relation to the smaller faster rounds). the plus for those calibers is that they leave larger permanent cavities in human victims. the difference in penetration through the car doors as you noted may also be attributed to the difference between bonded GD bullets and non-bonded HST and SXT bullets. either way i love my 357 and would rather carry it than 40 or 45, just a personal preference.

plus there's this:

The 357 sig seeks out, and destroys evil. Just point the gun anywhere away from yourself and the magical powers of this fine cartridge will locate evil doers and put them to rest. No other pistol round has this amazing, almost supernatural power.

There are estimates that the overall amount of evil in the world has dropped by over 20% since this cartridge has come into common use.

Often times, the person in possession of a 357 sig pistol has no need to deploy it because evil doers sense its presence and go elsewhere to carry out their dismal deeds.

Some have reported that merely carrying a single round of 357 sig ammunition in their pocket wards off criminal activity. Now, that's a potent pistol round!!!

DakPara
02-16-2010, 19:31
I have settled on two calibers for true defense, although I own many more:

1. 357 SIG - I like the speed in the faster loadings, and the 125gr in 357 Mag is the gold standard. With the right loading and in a G31, it is duplicated in a gun that holds 16 rounds of 125gr 1450 fps power.

2. 10mm - Just more speed, and energy. Easy to get to 750+ ft-lbs in every thing from 135gr - 180gr. And you can go to 230gr easily if you want to go heavy and slow (but for me, faster with energy is better).

N/Apower
02-17-2010, 00:21
At least one large agency reported better performance in OIS's upon switching from the Remington 125gr JHP in .357 Magnum to the .40.

Why is the .357 the gold standard? Because it came about during a time when bullets were tested in duxseal and water and didn't expand for beans. The .357 Magnum pushed the poorly designed bullets fast enough to expand. However, now all of that is water under the bridge.

Three-Five-Seven
02-17-2010, 09:34
At least one large agency reported better performance in OIS's upon switching from the Remington 125gr JHP in .357 Magnum to the .40.

Why is the .357 the gold standard? Because it came about during a time when bullets were tested in duxseal and water and didn't expand for beans. The .357 Magnum pushed the poorly designed bullets fast enough to expand. However, now all of that is water under the bridge.

Exactly!!! The hydrostatic vortex created by the viscous perturbance is equal in dimensions to the dissociative allocation of the electrostatic equalibrium.

G33
02-17-2010, 09:44
Hate the time distortion created by the .357 and 10mm.
:supergrin:

1SGMP
02-17-2010, 13:45
Exactly!!! The hydrostatic vortex created by the viscous perturbance is equal in dimensions to the dissociative allocation of the electrostatic equalibrium.
Hi

I was just looking for some advice/information on the 357 Sig as it will be a new caliber to me. I know there are some very knowledeable and expierenced people on this forum. I was hoping to get some insight from these people. Rather than commenting in a negative,sarcastic and condesending way it would be more helpful, If the people in this forum just shared some of their expierence's
Thanks
1SG
Out

Fishin6061
02-18-2010, 13:33
Along with the impressive terminal attributes of the .357 sig round, I find the bottleneck cartridge appealing as it even further enhances the reliability of the Glock pistol. That said shot placement and proficiency with ones pistol out ways seeking the magic round. The .357 sig does however demonstrate advantages when penetrating hard cover (especially with bonded bullets).

wally05
02-21-2010, 10:16
Unless you can come up with better tests than what is out there, then you're stuck with their results.

I have a hard time believing that there is little that the .357 sig offers over 9mm. Departments like it because of it's penetration. But, you can also be sure that it will be much more consistent in stops, especially through thick clothes. I love the 9mm, but it's on the fence about consistent penetration in people. A .357 sig has the ability to punch through a small barrier and still give consistent performance in a body. That is what is better about it. This is through actual shootings and research.

Beware Owner
02-22-2010, 08:38
Unless you can come up with better tests than what is out there, then you're stuck with their results.

I have a hard time believing that there is little that the .357 sig offers over 9mm. Departments like it because of it's penetration. But, you can also be sure that it will be much more consistent in stops, especially through thick clothes. I love the 9mm, but it's on the fence about consistent penetration in people. A .357 sig has the ability to punch through a small barrier and still give consistent performance in a body. That is what is better about it. This is through actual shootings and research.

I'm sorry, but, if you ask me, the simple fact that it will outdo the 9mm in penetrating barriers and stopping a lunatic out to kill me is enough for me to say that it has more than a little bit over the 9mm. The .357 Sig is going to tarnish your assailant's day no matter how you slice it, whether he's heavily clothed or behind some cover.

wally05
02-22-2010, 12:17
I'm sorry, but, if you ask me, the simple fact that it will outdo the 9mm in penetrating barriers and stopping a lunatic out to kill me is enough for me to say that it has more than a little bit over the 9mm. The .357 Sig is going to tarnish your assailant's day no matter how you slice it, whether he's heavily clothed or behind some cover.

ummm... then we are in agreement? Read my statement again. I agree with you.

Beware Owner
02-22-2010, 12:42
ummm... then we are in agreement? Read my statement again. I agree with you.

Of course! :supergrin:

wally05
02-22-2010, 13:35
Of course! :supergrin:

lol, good to know we agree.

G33
02-24-2010, 11:35
Think I will get a 10mm.



Wait....



Too late!
:supergrin::supergrin:

KinderGlocken
02-24-2010, 11:53
I don't want to lube pistol cases to resize them so I stick with straight wall pistol cases. Tha's the only thing I have against the .357sig.

LEAD
02-24-2010, 11:53
Can't remember where, but I was reading some police officer comments on how the .357 Sig needs less bullets to stop violent felons and dogs. It appears that the extra capacity of the 9 is not as much of a perk than it is a necessity. You HAVE to hit more times with the 9, whereas they have noticed that one hit'll sit 'em, for the most part. The Sig will go through a barrier and hit/penetrate like it's nobody's business. That means a lot to me.


Massad Ayoob wrote about this in combat handgunnnery if I recall corectly.

Beware Owner
02-24-2010, 12:16
Massad Ayoob wrote about this in combat handgunnnery if I recall corectly.

That and some police officer forums. If it NEEDS less bullets to get the job done on VIOLENT FELONS and DOGS EVEN AFTER GOING THROUGH BARRIERS, this tells me that it does an all around better job, period.

G33
02-24-2010, 13:49
I don't want to lube pistol cases to resize them so I stick with straight wall pistol cases. Tha's the only thing I have against the .357sig.

:tongueout::wavey:

KinderGlocken
02-24-2010, 14:22
:tongueout::wavey:

And......

LEAD
02-24-2010, 15:04
That and some police officer forums. If it NEEDS less bullets to get the job done on VIOLENT FELONS and DOGS EVEN AFTER GOING THROUGH BARRIERS, this tells me that it does an all around better job, period.

Seems pretty unanimously accepted that in the real world, the performance of the round has been exceptional.

I have guns in .380, 40, .357sig and .45ACP, and I find myself gravitating towards the .357sig round. Obviously the .380 is not competeing with the other better stoppers, but When I can basically choose a smaller weapon in 40, or the same sized weapon in .45ACP, or switch out the barrel in the exact same weapon and shoot 40, and I still prefer the .357sig that tells you where my preference lies.