They ALL clogged tonight (no photos) [Archive] - Glock Talk

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chugokujin
01-28-2010, 23:01
Hey all,

Did some informal ballistic testing tonight at the gun range and am thoroughly dissappointed in the results. Sorry, I'm not techno saavy enough to know how to upload pictures.

Anyway, since most who do post test results here tend to start from a fair distance, I thought I'd start from a distance which would be more realistic for me in the big city. The ammo tested was HST (230 +p and 124+p), Ranger t (230gr.,124+p and 127 +p+), and Gold Dot (230 +P and 124 +p). Just one round each. The media tested against were phone books. Nine stacked (packing taped) to be specific. They were only a lil damp since they were distributed a few days ago when it rained. The distance was no more than 2 feet. Besides I always wondered what they would expand to in close quarters ( think gun struggle).

After recovery they were all clogged with paper. Only the 9mm HST and Gold dot showed petals. 2 petals and 1 petal respectively, though they remained mostly unopened. None of the .45s opened even a bit. Dissappointing since I enjoy both calibers.

Next time I think I'll try this again from a lil further distance say 3-5 ft. and see if it makes a difference.

EDIT: forgot to add. Pistols were a G19 and Kimber custom classic 5" bbl.

bfoosh006
01-28-2010, 23:13
Sook those phone books for at least 18 hrs, you'll see a dramatic difference in performance.

triggerjerk
01-28-2010, 23:20
go to http://www.imageshack.us

click on upload pictures and select the photos from your computer.

when a pic is uploaded, copy the "direct link to image" url.
then put at the front of the url and at the end of that url in your post and the pic will appear.

fredj338
01-28-2010, 23:44
Dry paper is very tough on bullets. A JHP is designed so a liquid medium causes expansion (Hydraulic pressures). Shooting dry or slightly damp paper is just a waste of ammo if you are trying to test for expansion. It doesn't need 18hr, put loose in a pale of water, 8hrs is plenty. Then you can tape them together & shoot them. Bullets will look very much like they do when shot into ballistic gel or live flesh.
Next time I think I'll try this again from a lil further distance say 3-5 ft. and see if it makes a difference.
Curious, what makes you think further wuld be better? Your max vel is at the muzzle. Every foot you go away from the muzzle is less vel. The higher vel will give greatest expansion.

Ak.Hiker
01-28-2010, 23:46
Dry phone books should be pretty hard on a bullet. A lot like wood. Those hollow points would have had a better posibility of expanding if they hit soaked phone books or some kind of fluid.

chugokujin
01-29-2010, 00:05
Guys, thanks for the input and info on how to upload. I'll try it as I've kept the rounds. Yes, Im familiar with the "wet testing" media (water jugs, soaked paper or combo of..) but, I wanted just wanted to see how they would fare in dry or semi damp phone books in this case. Also because its winter and seeing all the layers everyone is shedding when they get to the range makes me wonder. Forget the 4 layer denim test, some guys I see are wearing two sweatshirts and a few undershirts beneath their heavy coats (some carhartts and peacoats). This is all dry media.

Fred338, Im no ballistician and figured the lil more travel might show something different. Oddly enough, years ago I shot a 10mm Black talon and it did expand though not as picturesque.

fredj338
01-29-2010, 00:21
Guys, thanks for the input and info on how to upload. I'll try it as I've kept the rounds. Yes, Im familiar with the "wet testing" media (water jugs, soaked paper or combo of..) but, I wanted just wanted to see how they would fare in dry or semi damp phone books in this case. Also because its winter and seeing all the layers everyone is shedding when they get to the range makes me wonder. Forget the 4 layer denim test, some guys I see are wearing two sweatshirts and a few undershirts beneath their heavy coats (some carhartts and peacoats). This is all dry media.

Fred338, Im no ballistician and figured the lil more travel might show something different. Oddly enough, years ago I shot a 10mm Black talon and it did expand though not as picturesque.

Bullets can expand in drypack, sand, wood, etc. but it is luck & isn't really expansion but deformation. They are designed for hydraulic expansion. The amount of clothing doesn't really matter if the bullet will still expand on impacting flesh.The fabric in the nose is only driven deeper into the cav by the solid paper.

Eagle22
01-29-2010, 07:53
Guys, thanks for the input and info on how to upload. I'll try it as I've kept the rounds. Yes, Im familiar with the "wet testing" media (water jugs, soaked paper or combo of..) but, I wanted just wanted to see how they would fare in dry or semi damp phone books in this case. Also because its winter and seeing all the layers everyone is shedding when they get to the range makes me wonder. Forget the 4 layer denim test, some guys I see are wearing two sweatshirts and a few undershirts beneath their heavy coats (some carhartts and peacoats). This is all dry media.

Fred338, Im no ballistician and figured the lil more travel might show something different. Oddly enough, years ago I shot a 10mm Black talon and it did expand though not as picturesque.

and are not most self defense shootings with in 6 feet?

so 4 to 6 feet with heavy dry media. Almost looks like FMJs for winter self defense.

JBP55
01-29-2010, 08:17
Guys, thanks for the input and info on how to upload. I'll try it as I've kept the rounds. Yes, Im familiar with the "wet testing" media (water jugs, soaked paper or combo of..) but, I wanted just wanted to see how they would fare in dry or semi damp phone books in this case. Also because its winter and seeing all the layers everyone is shedding when they get to the range makes me wonder. Forget the 4 layer denim test, some guys I see are wearing two sweatshirts and a few undershirts beneath their heavy coats (some carhartts and peacoats). This is all dry media.

Fred338, Im no ballistician and figured the lil more travel might show something different. Oddly enough, years ago I shot a 10mm Black talon and it did expand though not as picturesque.

So shoot through some NY winter clothing.

CitizenOfDreams
01-29-2010, 08:59
I hate coming home and seeing a gang of phone books loitering on my porch. Those evil things need to be shot on sight (who uses them anyway in the XXI century?). Somebody has to market a bullet for reliable expansion in a phone book, be it wet or dry.

ronin.45
01-29-2010, 09:29
As several have stated dry phone books will very rarely result in expansion. If you want a much better real world test go to good will and buy $5 worth of winter clothes. Hang these in front of water jugs. This will more closely simulate a person. I have been thinking about putting a couple red jello packets in each jug to add some solidity and a little drama to the test.:cool:

BOGE
01-29-2010, 10:06
Neither phone books nor water jugs are a fair medium for testing bullets unless you plan on shooting it out with Ma Bell or Aquaman. :upeyes: The ONLY effective measure so far is the FBI four denim test which gives us a good (not perfect) idea of how bullets perform in real humans. All this water, mud, phone book, etc., testing is silly and a waste of ammo. But hey, itīs your money. :supergrin:

glocksterr
01-29-2010, 10:20
Somebody has to market a bullet for reliable expansion in a phone book, be it wet or dry.



:whistling:




http://le.atk.com/general/federalproducts/pistol/tacticalefmj.aspx

coal
01-29-2010, 13:10
... I wanted just wanted to see how they would fare in dry or semi damp phone books in this case. ...

And, so you saw. Unless you expect attack by dry or semi-damp phone books, I'd not worry too much about it. All those loads you "tested" are respected/reputable.

fredj338
01-29-2010, 13:20
and are not most self defense shootings with in 6 feet?

so 4 to 6 feet with heavy dry media. Almost looks like FMJs for winter self defense.
Not even close to correct. Most SD shotings fall within the 7yd rule. Clothing & dry paper have no similaritis. A bullet will go through several inches of cloth before it even starts to slow down. Dry paper starts to slow a bullet on impact. Most JHP won't make it through a 3"-4" dry phone book.
Neither phone books nor water jugs are a fair medium for testing bullets unless you plan on shooting it out with Ma Bell or Aquaman. The ONLY effective measure so far is the FBI four denim test which gives us a good (not perfect) idea of how bullets perform in real humans.
Actually not true either. Wet newsprint or phone books certainly gives near identical results as bal.gel. as far as expansion goes. Bal.gel. gives a better comparison to flesh for penetration. Water falls in their too, but is a bit "hard" on impact & will expand a bullet that would not necessarily expand in wetpack or bal.gel. Even rifle bullets I have pulled from animals look amazingly like wetpack tested bullets. So it's not really a waste of bullets or ammo if done properly. Again, for expansion testing only. Penetration in wetpack is about 2/3 of bal.gel. & in water about 2.5X bal.gel.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/DSCN0552.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/210GRNP.jpg
Both bullets on left are from wetpack. The ones on the right from large 4 legged animals. Close enough for me. I would expect siom. results from any handgun bullet.:dunno:

Brucev
01-29-2010, 13:21
Thanks for the effort. I have found phone books, news paper, etc. to be tough on any bullet, pistol or rifle. I am fascinated by the data made available by those who go to the effort to test various bullets/calibers/barrel lengths, etc. Sincerely. Brucev.

chugokujin
01-29-2010, 17:42
I have no objection to mixing and matching any testing media, be it wet or dry. This was what I had available immediately. And since it wasn't really fully wet or dry, I'd thought it be interesting. My local range is small and busy. Setup time has to be fast with whatever I wanna use and waiting for a spot is a pain.

Yes, I know the ammo I have is good stuff. thats why I have it.:supergrin:

Shootings/knifings can and do happen in under 3 ft.. Its not uncommon for someone to approach and ask for the time then your wallet. Nor would it be uncommon to side up next to you in a busy transit station. This is a small and crowded city and things like this happened all the time.

Most of the clothing I dont want has been donated and I'd rather not shoot it if it can be given to someone who can use it. Besides, don't think I could get any decent amount of clothing for $5 here as suggested.

Considering I grew up in the one of the rougher parts of NYC and retired from our PD, I'm not worried about being attacked by a gang of phone books but I'll be on the lookout anyway :whistling:.

N/Apower
01-31-2010, 02:51
Excellent! This means the bullets will punch through a hard barrier and retain their shape/sectional Density enough to do something once they get through. Unless you are trying to kill a piece of wood or phone-book, this is good performance, not bad.

Kindof like what the RBCD crap was SUPPOSED to do, lmao