OK guys here it is ACR poll [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Mayhem like Me
02-01-2010, 19:28
How important is the ability for your ACR in 5.56 to have a 1x7 twist??





1. Not important at all 1x9 is fine

2. Very Important I shoot heavier bullets

3. I prefer 1x9 so who cares

4. I will not buy it if it is 1x9

Narc1911
02-01-2010, 19:48
1/7 is important for my agency (we use 75grn duty rounds).

12131
02-01-2010, 19:51
Doesn't matter what twist it is. Not getting one, until price drops significantly.

Mayhem like Me
02-01-2010, 19:56
While 1/7 is important for my agency (we use 75grn duty rounds) the other big problem with the ACR's barrel is non CFH and non chrome lined.

No it's acually alot better than chrome I can't tell you why( signed agreement) but I know it is...There ARE treatments tougher and more expensive than chrome....

Narc1911
02-01-2010, 20:02
No it's acually alot better than chrome I can't tell you why( signed agreement) but I know it is...There ARE treatments tougher and more expensive than chrome....

I had to edit my post, I realize I had my info wrong and according Bushmaster the barrel is CFH. What info is out on this coating?

SPDSNYPR
02-01-2010, 20:36
The 1-7 is a deal breaker. The better duty ammo out there is getting heavier.

But the thing costs so damned much I'll never own one anyway. Simple math.

NeverMore1701
02-01-2010, 20:39
No it's acually alot better than chrome I can't tell you why( signed agreement) but I know it is...There ARE treatments tougher and more expensive than chrome....

If no one knows what it is, and they won't tell us what it is, it's not better.

Mayhem like Me
02-01-2010, 20:43
If no one knows what it is, and they won't tell us what it is, it's not better.

I know what it is and it is better, if I were to tell you it would give others the information,,,and would violate an agreement I signed.. if you did a search on very hard and abrasion resistant coatings that were say dark in color you would be in the ballpark..

Do you expect people to divulge proprietery product information ?? I don't think so..

Mayhem like Me
02-01-2010, 20:46
The 1-7 is a deal breaker. The better duty ammo out there is getting heavier.

But the thing costs so damned much I'll never own one anyway. Simple math.

Yes I agree and all our practice ammo is 62 grain green tip and that stuff laughs at the 1x9 twist since it is kinda long for it's weight duty ammo is 75 grain TAP and it needs the 1x7 ...

RMTactical
02-01-2010, 20:47
I shoot primarily 55gr ammo anyways so I don't really care about that aspect.

What bothers me about the ACR is a couple things, I have not been impressed by the samples I have seen in person and the price tag. It is still unproven too.

CW Mock
02-01-2010, 20:49
I want to know how the mostly plastic gun of the "future" now weighs nearly as much as my 1950's tech USGI M14. That boggles my mind, that and the 3k price tag, for something that once again, is a lot of plastic.

Sam Spade
02-01-2010, 20:49
Do you expect people to divulge proprietery product information ?? I don't think so..
No, I don't. But since they're selling the thing, I expect them to address the point. Can't see where they've done so yet.


"Shoulda been made by HK. Then at least I'd look cool."


Oh, the poll----if it's not going to stabilize MK262, then I'll shop elsewhere.

NeverMore1701
02-01-2010, 20:50
I know what it is and it is better, if I were to tell you it would give others the information,,,and would violate an agreement I signed.. if you did a search on very hard and abrasion resistant coatings that were say dark in color you would be in the ballpark..

Do you expect people to divulge proprietery product information ?? I don't think so..

If you expect people to pay stupid high prices for feature-poor product, that just isn't going to fly (I'm talking here about Bushmaster, not you).

Mayhem like Me
02-01-2010, 20:52
I shoot primarily 55gr ammo anyways so I don't really care about that aspect.

What bothers me about the ACR is a couple things, I have not been impressed by the samples I have seen in person and the price tag. It is still unproven too.

yes the price is a sore spot with the design team(quality gets expensive) but look at the final product before judgement is passed I predict it to far surpass any of the piston guns and the SCAR in real operational hands..

I undersatnd about the 55grainers they would be fine in a 1x9 and mosty of the commercial customers would best be served with that twist.

DJ Niner
02-01-2010, 20:53
Doesn't matter what twist it is. Not getting one, until price drops significantly.

...

But the thing costs so damned much I'll never own one anyway. Simple math.Yeah, I was kinda looking for the poll selection that said "At this price, the twist rate should be variable by adjusting a dial on the handguard." :supergrin:

raven11
02-01-2010, 20:54
Yeah, I was kinda looking for the poll selection that said "At this price, the twist rate should be variable by adjusting a dial on the handguard." :supergrin:

at that price there should be a coupon for two free days at the Bunny Ranch, NV

Mayhem like Me
02-01-2010, 20:56
If you expect people to pay stupid high prices for feature-poor product, that just isn't going to fly (I'm talking here about Bushmaster, not you).

Can't agree with you on the feature poor aspect of your post..

The shipped product will be an extremely feature packed system that allows user changable barrel and caliber conversions.

The coating they use definately out classes simple hard chrome.

I remember when glocks came out everyone though tennifer was a cheap finish because no one knew about it.....

Mayhem like Me
02-01-2010, 21:00
No, I don't. But since they're selling the thing, I expect them to address the point. Can't see where they've done so yet.


"Shoulda been made by HK. Then at least I'd look cool."


Oh, the poll----if it's not going to stabilize MK262, then I'll shop elsewhere.

they have butthey are not going to say what it is

..4th Chrome lined vs. New Proprietary Coating: Many have pointed out that the ACR barrels are not chrome lined and that is correct... They are not. That does not mean that they are not coated. As stated in our original press release the ACR barrels, and all internal components, feature a new, proprietary coatings that are substrate conversions which vastly increase durability, lubricity and reliability.

raven11
02-01-2010, 21:13
Can't agree with you on the feature poor aspect of your post..

The shipped product will be an extremely feature packed system that allows user changable barrel and caliber conversions.



but are you going to include the barrels and caliber conversons with the rifle, it reminds me of the SIG 250

its nice that you can change the calibers around but if you price the accessories too high no one will buy them and the caliber conversion becomes a moot point

Mayhem like Me
02-01-2010, 21:17
I'M not pricing squat, I have no idea what their profit magin is on these, but the gun business has a really close margin..

And I agree on price points too high.

This seems to be in line with the SCAR which has almost identical features.

bug
02-01-2010, 22:27
No, I don't. But since they're selling the thing, I expect them to address the point. Can't see where they've done so yet.


"Shoulda been made by HK. Then at least I'd look cool."


Oh, the poll----if it's not going to stabilize MK262, then I'll shop elsewhere.

+1 I like 75gr tap works nice in mine

Alaskapopo
02-01-2010, 22:44
I was really excited about the ACR back when Magpul had it. But when it went to Bushmaster I knew it was going to get FD up and it has. No way will I buy a 9 pound 1/9 twist barrel gun that cost 3k. No chance.
Pat

crenca
02-01-2010, 23:06
I have an XCR and it has had these features for quite some time (caliber conversion, bolt release location, etc.) and it is lighter in weight (without the plastic) and price is much better. It's not perfect, but nothing is.

BEER
02-01-2010, 23:09
..4th Chrome lined vs. New Proprietary Coating: Many have pointed out that the ACR barrels are not chrome lined and that is correct... They are not. That does not mean that they are not coated. As stated in our original press release the ACR barrels, and all internal components, feature a new, proprietary coatings that are substrate conversions which vastly increase durability, lubricity and reliability.

which version is this super secret coating available on?

RMTactical
02-01-2010, 23:27
yes the price is a sore spot with the design team(quality gets expensive) but look at the final product before judgement is passed I predict it to far surpass any of the piston guns and the SCAR in real operational hands..

I undersatnd about the 55grainers they would be fine in a 1x9 and mosty of the commercial customers would best be served with that twist.

What evidence is there that the ACR is better quality than any of my AR15's? Like I stated in my previous post, the samples I have examined were not exactly impressive, and I thought this even when the MSRP was supposedly closer to $1500 or so...

GlocksterPaulie
02-01-2010, 23:31
Originally posted by Alaskapopo.

I was really excited about the ACR back when Magpul had it. But when it went to Bushmaster I knew it was going to get FD up and it has. No way will I buy a 9 pound 1/9 twist barrel gun that cost 3k. No chance.

We have a winner.

Paulie

Alaskapopo
02-01-2010, 23:47
What evidence is there that the ACR is better quality than any of my AR15's? Like I stated in my previous post, the samples I have examined were not exactly impressive, and I thought this even when the MSRP was supposedly closer to $1500 or so...

I agree there is no more quality with the ACR. It just the new toy the mall ninja's have to have.
Pat

Mayhem like Me
02-02-2010, 00:02
I agree there is no more quality with the ACR. It just the new toy the mall ninja's have to have.
Pat

You have not even seen a production gun and can say that you are most wise..


The coatings on the bolt and barrel are the best of the best, you will have to see them in action to understand the ability to tolerate high heat and abrasion.

Barrels are EXCELLENT!

1x7 will be available but from the looks of the poll the marketing department was correct in that MOST wanted a 1x9..I have been saying 1x7 all along but it appears I was wrong teh 1x9 is what is Most popular...

and I am looking for a piston gun THAT WORKS ! and this is a new system that is modular and works.. For a SBR with a can this has many advantages over a standard AR system.

Alaskapopo
02-02-2010, 00:16
You have not even seen a production gun and can say that you are most wise..


The coatings on the bolt and barrel are the best of the best, you will have to see them in action to understand the ability to tolerate high heat and abrasion.

Barrels are EXCELLENT!

1x7 will be available but from the looks of the poll the marketing department was correct in that MOST wanted a 1x9..I have been saying 1x7 all along but it appears I was wrong teh 1x9 is what is Most popular...

and I am looking for a piston gun THAT WORKS ! and this is a new system that is modular and works.. For a SBR with a can this has many advantages over a standard AR system.

Frankly those that don't care about the barrel twist are not the ones that are going to put 3k down for a rifle. Frankly I don't need to see a production rifle. Those that have seen it at the shot show are not happy. As soon as Bushy touched it I knew it would turn to crap and I was right. Also you don't need a piston to run a can. You do need a adjustable gas block however.
pat

BEER
02-02-2010, 01:50
i've been reading the official bushmaster Q&A thread over on another forum and bushmaster has admitted that they've priced the acr this high in order to recoup a lot of the initial build cost. the military version isn't even completely finalized yet and they're still refining it trying to cut some of the weight and figure out exactly how it needs to be equipped, and here's the kicker, once all that's worked out then later on down the road they will probably modify the civilian versions to include those design changes and improvements, and possibly lower the retail price!!

so basically we're supposed to buy this inferior product at this astronomical price when they've admitted that at some point down the line the improved version will be released to us with the improvements the weapon needs, the options we want, and at a lower price. now i know you can't catch fish without a hook in the water but they could have at least baited the damned thing.

i'm officially done with bushmaster. i don't care what they do to this rifle or how low the price tag ever drops at this point, they can keep it.

RMTactical
02-02-2010, 01:51
You have not even seen a production gun and can say that you are most wise..


The coatings on the bolt and barrel are the best of the best, you will have to see them in action to understand the ability to tolerate high heat and abrasion.

Barrels are EXCELLENT!

1x7 will be available but from the looks of the poll the marketing department was correct in that MOST wanted a 1x9..I have been saying 1x7 all along but it appears I was wrong teh 1x9 is what is Most popular...

and I am looking for a piston gun THAT WORKS ! and this is a new system that is modular and works.. For a SBR with a can this has many advantages over a standard AR system.

What poll? The poll in this thread?

Only 3 people in this poll so far have said that they preferred the 1/9.

jobob
02-02-2010, 02:35
So what's wrong with a 1:8 twist? A lot of match barrels use that twist, and it will stabilize anything up to the 77 gr. SMK.

But, like most everyong else, I'm rather P-Oed at Bushmaster. I recently bought one of their Superlight uppers, and it's excellent (on a Cavarms lower it makes a great LW rifle), but I won't be buying any more BM products until they change their pricing policies. They've jumped the prices on everything, not just the ACR.

Mayhem like Me
02-02-2010, 06:00
Frankly those that don't care about the barrel twist are not the ones that are going to put 3k down for a rifle. Frankly I don't need to see a production rifle. Those that have seen it at the shot show are not happy. As soon as Bushy touched it I knew it would turn to crap and I was right. Also you don't need a piston to run a can. You do need a adjustable gas block however.
pat


The switchblock is not the answer, it still sends too much heat and crap into the action promotiong the premature wear of the extraction system and higher maintence shchedules.

Did you see it or are you parroting what someoen else said , I am running on first hand information. so time will tell.

Hack
02-02-2010, 08:31
I am issued as necessary an M16A2. I have no options to use anything else.

SPDSNYPR
02-02-2010, 14:23
The switchblock is not the answer, it still sends too much heat and crap into the action promotiong the premature wear of the extraction system and higher maintenance schedules.

Did you see it or are you parroting what someone else said , I am running on first hand information. so time will tell.


You can buy an awful lot of spare parts for the price difference of the two guns. So you wear out bolts and barrels at 20K instead of 40K. Go buy a stack of new complete uppers to replace the old. Good thing is, you can replace the upper with a sight already sighted in on it. With the ACR - you replace a barrel, and it's guesswork where it will shoot. You have to re zero every time. I don't see this particular feature as being a great benefit.

The weight is ridiculous, the price is ridiculous, and the twist is wrong for the serious end-user. I don't care if their new coating comes with a blow job from a cute sorority girl. I don't see it being worth the cost increase over time and combat proven chrome lining.

Sorry - but for the vast majority of end users, I don't see the features it has vs the price is anywhere near worth it. Of course, we will see by the number of rifles sold in the end. But frankly with the price tag I don't see a lot of departments buying it, and I really don't see the military going away from the M4. I think BM built themselves a huge potential flop.

PlasticGuy
02-02-2010, 14:41
I was at SHOT. My info is first hand also, and I think Bushmaster put a lot of R&D time and money into screwing the pooch.

It has nice features, but it already had nice features when it was a MagPul creation for half the price. Now it is an 8.25# carbine (too heavy) with a 1:9 twist barrel (too slow) that is not chrome lined (nor is it nitrided according to their guys at SHOT) and will no longer accept AR-15 barrels (nice original option that would solve the new ACR barrel complaints) and has doubled in price (to cost more than a battle tested SCAR).

I'm not saying it's a bad rifle, necessarily, but the features are no longer ideal and the cost is unjustified. The military has the SCAR for SOCOM, and isn't currently looking for a replacement for the average grunt. It's hard enough talking an LE agency into spending $1000 for an AR-15 for their patrol officers, so there's no way they're going to spend three times that for anything. Your average civilian won't spend $3000 for any rifle, and an enthusiast who would spend $3000 will demand mil-spec features, good handling qualities, and modularity that the ACR does not yet give. Yes, I know it's technically modular but it isn't truly modular until there are other barrels and stocks to bolt onto it. They told me they have no idea when they will be, but it won't be soon.

It's a white elephant in it's current form and at the current price point.

WayaX
02-02-2010, 16:22
where is the "I'm not going to buy that bushmaster pos" option?

BEER
02-02-2010, 16:35
where is the "I'm not going to buy that bushmaster pos" option?


in your wallet where it'll be much more effective.

Mayhem like Me
02-02-2010, 20:02
Umm I guess no one is paying attention to the fact that it will be available with a 1x7 twist?? since a MAJOR gripe is the 1x9..Chrome lines yadda yadda..

No chrome and the process is lets say multi step for the coating and tougher than plain nitride..


You did not see a production gun at SHOT and some things are still changing,. and Mugpul did not have a production capable gun , they had a mock up and a great idea so when a company takes a risk and puts real effort into R&D on building a system that is durable accurate and meets several design parameters all the internet experts gripe about how they could do it better...Did you ever think if magpul could make it for 1.500 why didn't they.... they couldn't thats why.

Well I will have a gun (ACR )to tear up for a year and see what it's made of based on the effort that went into the design I am placing my bet that it will be a very good firearm but time will tell.


And the price will likely be lower how much I do not know...I woudl expect them less than a SCAR and in line with other Piston guns.

deMontacute
02-02-2010, 20:11
nm....

crazymoose
02-02-2010, 21:09
I know what it is and it is better, if I were to tell you it would give others the information,,,and would violate an agreement I signed.. if you did a search on very hard and abrasion resistant coatings that were say dark in color you would be in the ballpark..

Do you expect people to divulge proprietery product information ?? I don't think so..

Given that Bushmaster has called the "coating" a "substrate alteration" (not really a coating at all), I'm convinced that they're using a nitrocarburization process of some sort to treat the barrels. This would yield a wear and corrosion resistance similar to Glock's Tenifer, or the process used on the SIG 556 rifle barrels. This is definitely a positive sign. I guess there are other possibilities. I've noticed that parts availability from Superior Barrels has dropped off, so their "hard blue" may be another possibility (it would explain what they've been doing instead of producing barrels for AR-15s). Whatever it is, I sincerely hope that it's not simply a bake-on finish like Ion Bond. However, until they drop the ****ty M4-profiled, 1:9 twist barrels, and lower the price, this gun is a no-go for me. What further offended me was a post on another site with a BM rep claiming that they chose an M4 profile because their "extensive testing" showed it gave the best balance between strength and weight. Really? The thought never occurred to them to test a constant-diameter barrel of equal mass?

If there were more transparency in this project (i.e. admit that M4-contoured barrels were used as a production expedient, disclose their "coating" process), I'd be a lot more sympathetic. You don't see this crap pulled by compnies like Colt, Noveske, LaRue, and BCM. Companies such as those, making products whose quality sells itself, actually go out of their ways to publicise this sort of information.

SPDSNYPR
02-03-2010, 00:24
Umm I guess no one is paying attention to the fact that it will be available with a 1x7 twist?? since a MAJOR gripe is the 1x9..Chrome lines yadda yadda..

No chrome and the process is lets say multi step for the coating and tougher than plain nitride..

OK - here's the rub. "Will be" gets me ****. It also was going to be available 3 years ago. It was also going to be 1-7. It was also going to be $1500. And none of those happened either. They can promise **** will happen in the future all they want. Until it's available right now, I ain't buying. They lost my interest with all of the stuff that "will be" happening with this rifle, then didn't. They have had a chance to get it right for the last 3 years. And all they did was **** it up. I'm pretty sure that getting Bushmaster involved had a part in this.

I'm glad you're on board with this project. That's great. But even now you're saying what is going to happen in the future, and even you can't know that. They're still tinkering with ****, and driving the cost up for something that basically might happen or might not. And for triple the cost of a really good DI gun (BCM). All for what? A piston and super-secret coating? Are there 3 times the number of part that account for triple the cost? I doubt it. They went away from barrels compatible with the AR - drives the cost up. I hear now it doesn't take AR triggers. Drives the cost up. I'm guessing they went away from the AR bolt. Again - driving the cost up. So - a bunch of proprietary **** that drives up costs and gets the end-user no advantage.

What they've done is over-thought and over-researched something in typical modern fashion. And dug themselves a hole that they're counting on us to dig them out of with our wallets. I don't see it happening. If it does - great. But I predict a huge flop on their part unless something radically different happens.

If you're really into this rifle, I hope it works out for you. But they lost me a couple of years ago when they didn't come through with all their promises. And they are still trying to make sales on something that isn't finalized based on more promises that haven't happened. Sounds an awful lot like snake-oil sales to me.

humanguerrilla
02-04-2010, 15:02
Thought the coating could be special Remington's Remonite with the collaboration, but DPMS says when they use it so why wouldn't Bushmaster.

PlasticGuy
02-06-2010, 02:19
Umm I guess no one is paying attention to the fact that it will be available with a 1x7 twist?? since a MAJOR gripe is the 1x9..Chrome lines yadda yadda...
I'm going by what I saw and was told directly by Bushmaster at SHOT.

They told me that dealer pricing on the untested ACR will be $100 more than what the combat proven SCAR is currently retailing for. The ACR's they had there had M4 profile 1:9 twist barrels that were not chrome lined, and they said these would be what they would ship with initially with a possibility of 1:7 twist barrels at some undisclosed time in the "not near" future. They said the barrels were better than chrome lined, and not nitrided, but they couldn't/wouldn't say how. I'm betting on powdered deer spleen and magical druid spells cast around a campfire, but maybe they'll actually tell us at some point in the future.

They use some AR15 trigger group components, but mix in proprietary components and put it in a proprietary housing so it becomes unique and expensive. Likewise, the bolt is no better than an AR15 bolt but is different enough to be unique and expensive. Same with the barrels -- different enough to be expensive. It just doesn't make sense. If you're going to make it different and more expensive, at least make it better so the high price is justified.

Believe me when I say that I wanted to like the ACR. I really did. However, it simply cannot succeed in any market (Military, LE, or civilian) in its current form and at the current price point. I believe Bushmaster got the message loud and clear. Whether they react quickly and effectively and produce what people want at a price they're willing to pay is the remaining question. My fingers are crossed, but I have serious doubts given their performance thus far.

Quiet
02-06-2010, 08:55
I'd rather have a FN SCAR. :whistling:

Lowrangerider
02-06-2010, 18:03
1/8 please...

CW Mock
02-06-2010, 19:05
I'm going by what I saw and was told directly by Bushmaster at SHOT.

They told me that dealer pricing on the untested ACR will be $100 more than what the combat proven SCAR is currently retailing for. The ACR's they had there had M4 profile 1:9 twist barrels that were not chrome lined, and they said these would be what they would ship with initially with a possibility of 1:7 twist barrels at some undisclosed time in the "not near" future. They said the barrels were better than chrome lined, and not nitrided, but they couldn't/wouldn't say how. I'm betting on powdered deer spleen and magical druid spells cast around a campfire, but maybe they'll actually tell us at some point in the future.

They use some AR15 trigger group components, but mix in proprietary components and put it in a proprietary housing so it becomes unique and expensive. Likewise, the bolt is no better than an AR15 bolt but is different enough to be unique and expensive. Same with the barrels -- different enough to be expensive. It just doesn't make sense. If you're going to make it different and more expensive, at least make it better so the high price is justified.

Believe me when I say that I wanted to like the ACR. I really did. However, it simply cannot succeed in any market (Military, LE, or civilian) in its current form and at the current price point. I believe Bushmaster got the message loud and clear. Whether they react quickly and effectively and produce what people want at a price they're willing to pay is the remaining question. My fingers are crossed, but I have serious doubts given their performance thus far.

I never followed the step by step development of the ACR, but I thought some of the biggest "perks" were light weight, and that it used a lot of existing AR parts. Guess that didn't happen, or I was wrong.

PlasticGuy
02-06-2010, 19:14
I never followed the step by step development of the ACR, but I thought some of the biggest "perks" were light weight, and that it used a lot of existing AR parts. Guess that didn't happen, or I was wrong.
You were right. Take the most beloved parts of the AR, change everything that people don't like about the AR, and keep the weight down in the process. At least, that was Magpul's vision. Not so much with Bushmaster.

triggerjerk
02-06-2010, 20:50
FWIW, my XCR has a 1/9 barrel and I have no problem shooting Silver State Armory 77gr SMK 5.56 for groups at 50yds (eotech) or metallic silhouettes at 200yds . . .

I think the ACR's problem is its price tag, multilug bolt, 2 position gas regulator and lack of info on caliber conversions.

DRT
02-07-2010, 07:36
If it doesn't come with a 1:7 barrel I won't even consider it. Same with the new Ruger. Premium ammo is best suited to 1:7 and there is no significant benefit to 1:9 unless bullets <52gr are being used. Why any company would build a new, ground-up 5.56mm weapon w/o 1:7 rifling is beyond me. Additionally, if they aren't smart enough to choose the best rifling twist rate then that reflects a poor (or ignorant) design decision process that makes me question where other compromises were made.

Chuck TX
02-07-2010, 11:57
It would have to cost much less than Magpul claimed it was going to for me to buy anything with 1:9 barrel.

wingsprint
02-08-2010, 05:20
What evidence is there that the ACR is better quality than any of my AR15's? Like I stated in my previous post, the samples I have examined were not exactly impressive, and I thought this even when the MSRP was supposedly closer to $1500 or so...



I do not hold hope for anything coming out of the firearms manufactures now owned by Cerberus Capital Management (Remington, Bushmaster, DPMS). Cerberus is run by Bob Nardelli who became famous for running Home Depot and Chrysler off a cliff. Nardelli and his knuckleheads at Cerberus have also crapped the bed with United Rentals and GMAC.

The ACR looks like just a another Cerberus failure.

kabob983
02-10-2010, 08:29
Doesn't matter what twist it is. Not getting one, until price drops significantly.

+1, I was so stoked for the ACR, but at that price point I won't touch one...

That said I'd prefer 1x7 but I can handle 1x9.