Factory Stakeing is outdated! [Archive] - Glock Talk

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shineybore
02-04-2010, 02:13
While at work looking through some old threads on here and reading all the bickering about stakeing the gas key. Being an engineer and all I have thought of the best solution for stakeing a gas key.


Tac weld the key in place. Trust me the key will not budge under any combat situation. My co-worker thinks J.B Weld is the better solution.


So what do ya think? :dunno:












Disclaimer: I'm not serious.

BEER
02-04-2010, 03:20
i'm a redneck so i just use bailing wire and duct tape.

wingsprint
02-04-2010, 04:23
IMHO, the obsession with "proper staking" is silly. Without some sort of test, how does one determine if one dent in metal will hold a bolt in place better than another? Visual observation is purely speculation and is totally subjective. Oh- I am not suggesting that it is not important to have the bolts on the gas key staked.

Randolph da man
02-04-2010, 05:43
IMHO, the obsession with "proper staking" is silly. Without some sort of test, how does one determine if one dent in metal will hold a bolt in place better than another? Visual observation is purely speculation and is totally subjective. Oh- I am not suggesting that it is not important to have the bolts on the gas key staked.


:rofl:

its TWO dents, cupcake :whistling:

kirgi08
02-04-2010, 06:25
:rofl:

vafish
02-04-2010, 06:54
While at work looking through some old threads on here and reading all the bickering about stakeing the gas key. Being an engineer and all I have thought of the best solution for stakeing a gas key.


Tac weld the key in place. Trust me the key will not budge under any combat situation. My co-worker thinks J.B Weld is the better solution.


So what do ya think? :dunno:












Disclaimer: I'm not serious.

I think you are correct that a tack weld would hold better then staking, but welds change the metallurgy a bit and the weld could crack. Welding also means that the gas key is now permanently attached. With staking it is still possible to remove the bolts.

I don't think welding is necessary when staking works just fine.

As for JB Weld, you have the same problem as using Loc-Tite on the gas key bolts. Heat breaks down JB Weld. Under extended firing the gas key could get hot enough to melt the JB weld, then the screws would loosen easily.

Bottom line, the AR15 platform has been around for almost 50 years now, pretty much everything has been tried for attaching the gas key and staking is still the best option.

shineybore
02-04-2010, 07:51
I think you are correct that a tack weld would hold better then staking, but welds change the metallurgy a bit and the weld could crack. Welding also means that the gas key is now permanently attached. With staking it is still possible to remove the bolts.

I don't think welding is necessary when staking works just fine.

As for JB Weld, you have the same problem as using Loc-Tite on the gas key bolts. Heat breaks down JB Weld. Under extended firing the gas key could get hot enough to melt the JB weld, then the screws would loosen easily.

Bottom line, the AR15 platform has been around for almost 50 years now, pretty much everything has been tried for attaching the gas key and staking is still the best option.
After every cleaning you should inspect the welds and look for failue. If you see some spots that look like it could crack. Tac weld em again. I think more testing needs to be done in order to prove this theroy.















P.S. I'm still not being serious....

vafish
02-04-2010, 07:55
After every cleaning you should inspect the welds and look for failue. If you see some spots that look like it could crack. Tac weld em again. I think more testing needs to be done in order to prove this theroy.















P.S. I'm still not being serious....

I gotta learn to read the fine print.

faawrenchbndr
02-04-2010, 12:03
i'm a redneck so i just use bailing wire and duct tape.

Yep,....you can fix anything with that!

wingsprint
02-04-2010, 14:57
:rofl:

its TWO dents, cupcake :whistling:

Yes, I am aware of that.

Gallium
02-04-2010, 15:13
I gotta learn to read the fine print.


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

VA, yer killing me here.

Three-Five-Seven
02-04-2010, 15:14
I use a C-clamp behind the nut, tightened down on the tube. Works for me.

Onmilo
02-04-2010, 15:30
Since the gas key screws are normally installed with a thread locking compound applied to the threads, then the cap screws are tightened to a specified torque setting, in reality staking becomes nothing more than a redundency.

Range Rat
02-04-2010, 15:41
Why do I think of "the chart" every time I read a thread like this. That stupid thing makes a lot of people feel bad about what they have purchased.

faawrenchbndr
02-04-2010, 15:47
Since the gas key screws are normally installed with a thread locking compound applied to the threads, then the cap screws are tightened to a specified torque setting, in reality staking becomes nothing more than a redundency.

And most use Rocksett thread locker. It's good the about 1100 degrees C

wingsprint
02-04-2010, 15:51
Why do I think of "the chart" every time I read a thread like this. That stupid thing makes a lot of people feel bad about what they have purchased.

yup.

Don't get me started about the obsession over MPI testing.

faawrenchbndr
02-04-2010, 15:54
How dare thee mock the All Mighty Chart!

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/faawrenchbndr/Theallknowingchart.jpg

wingsprint
02-04-2010, 16:20
And most use Rocksett thread locker. It's good the about 1100 degrees C

+1

Based on 25 years of building racing engines- If thread lockers can hold bolts, and head studs in place in a 900hp sprint car engine spinning at almost 9000 rpm's, I am positive that it will do the same on gas key bolts.

Frog1
02-04-2010, 21:12
Currently, there is a whole bunch ado about nothing worries published about AR's on the internet. I am having a hard time not really pissing off a bunch of internet experts. So I am not going to say much. The staking paranoia is just one of the items I could rant about.

Number two, the brand bashing and reliability concerns are all easy fixes. There is not one brand of AR on the market that can't be made very reliable with just a couple simple and inexpensive additions. They are the BCM heavy duty extractor upgrade with d ring. The next simple fix is proper lubrication.

The last item is to replace wear items when they are supposed to be replaced. Worn out magazines is a problem. Extractor, buffer, trigger, and related springs. That's about it.

None of the so called lesser brands are going to dissenagrate due to poor materials used. None of them are using poor materials.

Randolph da man
02-04-2010, 21:16
would you mind listing your credentials, please ?


Currently, there is a whole bunch ado about nothing worries published about AR's on the internet. I am having a hard time not really pissing off a bunch of internet experts. So I am not going to say much. The staking paranoia is just one of the items I could rant about.

Number two, the brand bashing and reliability concerns are all easy fixes. There is not one brand of AR on the market that can't be made very reliable with just a couple simple and inexpensive additions. They are the BCM heavy duty extractor upgrade with d ring. The next simple fix is proper lubrication.

The last item is to replace wear items when they are supposed to be replaced. Worn out magazines is a problem. Extractor, buffer, trigger, and related springs. That's about it.

None of the so called lesser brands are going to dissenagrate due to poor materials used. None of them are using poor materials.

UrbanOps
02-04-2010, 21:21
Two words...zip tie

To be serious though, the only thing that isn't staked on my AR is my buffer tube nut. It constantly comes loose, but I can't seem to get it to stake. I kept bending punches trying to stake it so I gave up. The notch on the nut is just so small that a "sturdy" punch simply won't work.

markman
02-05-2010, 06:50
UrbanOps
How are you trying to stake it? I just did 2 with a center punch, and had no problem at all. Maybe this link will help.

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6994

wingsprint
02-05-2010, 07:34
Currently, there is a whole bunch ado about nothing worries published about AR's on the internet. I am having a hard time not really pissing off a bunch of internet experts. So I am not going to say much. The staking paranoia is just one of the items I could rant about.

Number two, the brand bashing and reliability concerns are all easy fixes. There is not one brand of AR on the market that can't be made very reliable with just a couple simple and inexpensive additions. They are the BCM heavy duty extractor upgrade with d ring. The next simple fix is proper lubrication.

The last item is to replace wear items when they are supposed to be replaced. Worn out magazines is a problem. Extractor, buffer, trigger, and related springs. That's about it.

None of the so called lesser brands are going to dissenagrate due to poor materials used. None of them are using poor materials.



Outstanding post.
.

Mayhem like Me
02-05-2010, 09:11
Since the gas key screws are normally installed with a thread locking compound applied to the threads, then the cap screws are tightened to a specified torque setting, in reality staking becomes nothing more than a redundency.

No, because after 100 rounds the thread compound is done and thread compound is not specified when putting them together, proper staking is....

Glock2008
02-05-2010, 09:46
Tac welds Ha. I just run a bead around the entire gas key with my mig welder. :tongueout:

SilverBullet_83
02-05-2010, 11:13
shineybore, almost thought you were serious. barely caught the fine print there

Onmilo
02-05-2010, 11:33
No, because after 100 rounds the thread compound is done and thread compound is not specified when putting them together, proper staking is....

We're not talking blue loc-Tite here, whole different level of thread locking compounds.
Even without the compound a properly torqued screw will not come loose.
Even in the way way back of the TDP, staking was a redundency, not a necessity.
Things have changed since the technical data package was written 45 years ago, new techniques have come about.

You should look into modern technology sometime and stop worshipping "The List" :whistling:

HAIL CAESAR
02-05-2010, 17:51
Currently, there is a whole bunch ado about nothing worries published about AR's on the internet. I am having a hard time not really pissing off a bunch of internet experts. So I am not going to say much. The staking paranoia is just one of the items I could rant about.


I've staked a bunch of guns over the years that were not and the key came loose and stopped the gun. I'll take personal experience over anything else.


Number two, the brand bashing and reliability concerns are all easy fixes. There is not one brand of AR on the market that can't be made very reliable with just a couple simple and inexpensive additions. They are the BCM heavy duty extractor upgrade with d ring. The next simple fix is proper lubrication.
You must have never used Oly Arms much and had to trouble shoot them all day. Do you call reaming the chamber easy, simple? Do you have a reamer at home?

The last item is to replace wear items when they are supposed to be replaced. Worn out magazines is a problem. Extractor, buffer, trigger, and related springs. That's about it.
And if you shoot A LOT you should have hammers, triggers, hammer/trigger springs, a spare bolt for lug shear.

None of the so called lesser brands are going to disintegrate due to poor materials used. None of them are using poor materials.
Again you don't have experience with Oly Arms do you? I ;ve seen extractor springs turn to mangled wire mess/dust in 5 rounds. ( Yes, 5 rounds).

Sorry partner but you do get what you pay for in life. It is up to the individual buyer to decide what kind of quality they want for personal preference or the usage of the rifle, and buy from there. But if anybody thinks that a gun like Oly is the same as a LMT they have never been around lots of LMT's or Oly's.

Alaskapopo
02-05-2010, 18:19
We're not talking blue loc-Tite here, whole different level of thread locking compounds.
Even without the compound a properly torqued screw will not come loose.
Even in the way way back of the TDP, staking was a redundency, not a necessity.
Things have changed since the technical data package was written 45 years ago, new techniques have come about.

You should look into modern technology sometime and stop worshipping "The List" :whistling:

The bolt carrier gets very hot and will break down any chemical locking agent given enough time and firing. Staking cures that.
Pat

Flinter
02-05-2010, 18:20
What is all the fuss about staking gas keys? If they aren't staked, it's easy to fix with a center punch or cold chisel and a ballpeen hammer. All that is needed is for metal from the key to be upset into the bolt as a backup to the torque.

Redundent? Yes, proabably so, but the military usually is for a very good reason.

And if everyone thinks they are all created equal, ya might wanna think again.

Mil-Spec is a minimum requirement, not a max.

Alaskapopo
02-05-2010, 18:22
Currently, there is a whole bunch ado about nothing worries published about AR's on the internet. I am having a hard time not really pissing off a bunch of internet experts. So I am not going to say much. The staking paranoia is just one of the items I could rant about.

Number two, the brand bashing and reliability concerns are all easy fixes. There is not one brand of AR on the market that can't be made very reliable with just a couple simple and inexpensive additions. They are the BCM heavy duty extractor upgrade with d ring. The next simple fix is proper lubrication.

The last item is to replace wear items when they are supposed to be replaced. Worn out magazines is a problem. Extractor, buffer, trigger, and related springs. That's about it.

None of the so called lesser brands are going to dissenagrate due to poor materials used. None of them are using poor materials.
WRONG.
Here is an OLY with a cast reciever from not too many years back.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Gun%20blow%20ups/Olysucks1.jpg

Not all brands are created equal.
Pat

Reb 56
02-05-2010, 19:11
Why not machine the gas key and the carrier as one part? I know some of the piston guns do that.

mvician
02-05-2010, 19:50
Why not machine the gas key and the carrier as one part? I know some of the piston guns do that.

The gas key is a wear item, while the carrier itself usually isn't.

rem2429
02-05-2010, 22:55
Seriously? Who has replaced a gas key because it was worn out?

Alaskapopo
02-05-2010, 23:12
Seriously? Who has replaced a gas key because it was worn out?

Not worn out. But I have seen gas keys come loose stopping the gun. Turing an Ar into a straight pull bolt action. The issue was never the gas key wearing out. But rather the bolts coming loose and a loss of gas pressure casing the gun to stop. In extreme cases the bolts come up allowing the gas key to ride up gouging the hell out of the upper reciever.

Pat

Onmilo
02-06-2010, 01:46
Not worn out. But I have seen gas keys come loose stopping the gun. Turing an Ar into a straight pull bolt action. The issue was never the gas key wearing out. But rather the bolts coming loose and a loss of gas pressure casing the gun to stop. In extreme cases the bolts come up allowing the gas key to ride up gouging the hell out of the upper reciever.

Pat

And in my experience I have seen more than a few gas keys that have shorn the screw threads.
The screws didn't come loose, the threads pulled right out of the bolt carriers.
The gas tubes and gas key entrance ports always ended up being all mashed up too.

This has occurred on full auto M16A1 and AR15 semiauto sporting rifles and I am sure misaligned gas tubes were the contributing factor in the rifles I have worked on.
The screws WERE staked too.

jobob
02-06-2010, 02:25
So, how hot does a carrier get that it's going to break down high grade thread locking compounds? I would think high performance auto engines get much hotter than an AR bolt carrier.

Alaskapopo
02-06-2010, 02:29
So, how hot does a carrier get that it's going to break down high grade thread locking compounds? I would think high performance auto engines get much hotter than an AR bolt carrier.

I don't know how how. But barrels can get red hot if you shoot enough fast enough.
Pat

kirgi08
02-06-2010, 04:56
If it's not full auto a quality +1100 degress should be fine.'08.

wingsprint
02-06-2010, 06:17
So, how hot does a carrier get that it's going to break down high grade thread locking compounds? I would think high performance auto engines get much hotter than an AR bolt carrier.

The BCG and surrounding area (under any circumstance) will never get anywhere near the temperatures seen on the exhaust side of even a factory stock engine.

wingsprint
02-06-2010, 06:21
The bolt carrier gets very hot and will break down any chemical locking agent given enough time and firing. Staking cures that.
Pat

Not a chance...

markman
02-06-2010, 06:42
While it's not a BCG, check this interesting video of an M4 barrel meltdown.

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/12/m4-and-m4a1-guns/?hp

faawrenchbndr
02-06-2010, 07:15
So, how hot does a carrier get that it's going to break down high grade thread locking compounds?
I would think high performance auto engines get much hotter than an AR bolt carrier.

Well Rocksett will handle 2012 degrees F
Would really like to see HOW hot a bolt carrier gets.

And for my last post in this thread,.....................................................

If a part, in this case, a gas key is installed properly, staking is a moot point.
Firearms NEED cleaning, inspection & maintenance following shooting is key.

This pissing match over "proper staking" is BS. I've yet to have a gas key
come loose. Don't try to give me this, "Well I shoot three-gun competition" BS.
I've been shooting the M16 and AR15 for 25 years. If they are maintained
inspected and properly, a loose gas key will never cause a failure.

NEGLECT & LAZINESS causes the failure.

DJ Niner
02-06-2010, 09:21
How dare thee mock the All Mighty Chart!

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/faawrenchbndr/Theallknowingchart.jpg
Save Image As... :supergrin:

DJ Niner
02-06-2010, 09:30
Seriously? Who has replaced a gas key because it was worn out?Not necessarily "worn out" as in worn to a nubbin; but they do get damaged fairly easily. I remember replacing at least one a year at various USAF bases, usually due to a misaligned gas tube "chewing up" the end of the key, or some butter-fingered trainee dropping a bolt carrier on the concrete floor or range surface during disassembly/reassembly/cleaning (which bends the key or mashes the end partially closed).

So I'd say it's rare, but not unheard of, and they CAN be damaged rather easily under certain common conditions.

Randolph da man
02-06-2010, 15:05
...If a part, in this case, a gas key is installed properly, staking is a moot point.
...
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
guess what, Einstein... staking is part of correctly installing gas keys, look it up :tongueout:

you're so confused its rediculous :upeyes:

kirgi08
02-06-2010, 15:24
That should do it.'08.

faawrenchbndr
02-06-2010, 15:30
guess what, Einstein... staking is part of correctly installing gas keys, look it up :tongueout:

you're so confused its rediculous :upeyes:

You got me there,........you just keep being "pretty in pink" Einstein! :rofl:

Flinter
02-06-2010, 16:09
Staking is easily corrected. A better discussion would be proper bolt hardening and proper hardcoat anodizing between the various makers. Much more important than the how much metal from the key is sticking into bolt topics that seem to constantly infect this board.

I guess not many want to go there, well because that is something that IS important and something that most of us CAN'T fix ourselves.

faawrenchbndr
02-06-2010, 16:19
Very good point Flinter!
Many here just repeat the same BS they hear here.
Many have no first hand knowledge, just seem to be couch commandos! :rofl:
But, at least they are here and not frying their brains on X-Box

Randolph da man
02-06-2010, 17:18
....Many have no first hand knowledge, just seem to be couch commandos! ....


pot, kettle, pot, kettle.... :rofl:

Randolph da man
02-06-2010, 17:25
You got me there,........you just keep being "pretty in pink" Einstein! :rofl:


this is for you
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii27/bilylovec/chart/cautionchart.jpg

faawrenchbndr
02-06-2010, 17:37
pot, kettle, pot, kettle.... :rofl:

this is for you..........

You're a FUNNY guy! That's awesome!
Yeah, I'm General Couch Commando, you keep thinking that. :rofl:


p.s.
I'm going to copy the caution sign,.....that's awesome! :thumbsup:

LA_357SIG
02-08-2010, 12:09
Why do I think of "the chart" every time I read a thread like this. That stupid thing makes a lot of people feel bad about what they have purchased.

I don't see why people always offended by "the chart". It is a COMPARISON of COTS M4 type rifles. Just because you didn't buy a colt doesn't mean your Bushmaster is crap. I always refer the unwashed masses to Rob_s thread to console the n00bs and those with low black rifle self esteem.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7376

Anyway. I got an unstaked BCG before and did a field replacement staking with a center punch and fired well over 2000 rounds and traded it to a buddy who said he used it in a carbine course on top of range trips and the bolts didn't budge.

AK_Stick
02-08-2010, 19:57
The bolt carrier gets very hot and will break down any chemical locking agent given enough time and firing. Staking cures that.
Pat


That is definitely untrue. There are plenty of thread locking compounds that are would survive without an issue on the bolt carrier of an AR.


However, staking is the proper choice for a field repairable weapon.

Randolph da man
02-09-2010, 05:37
You're a FUNNY guy! That's awesome!
Yeah, I'm General Couch Commando, you keep thinking that. :rofl:
p.s.
I'm going to copy the caution sign,.....that's awesome! :thumbsup:



My Father is retired AF, so I know :wavey:

faawrenchbndr
02-09-2010, 06:44
That is definitely untrue. There are plenty of thread locking compounds that are would survive without an issue on the bolt carrier of an AR.
However, staking is the proper choice for a field repairable weapon.

Yep,...Rocksett in good to 1100 degrees C.
If RockSett is used and the gas key is torqued properly, staking just a redundant back up.
It's can not hurt to have it staked, great idea for a Mil/LEO weapon.

For John B. Public, MOST factory staking jobs are fine

kirgi08
02-09-2010, 07:40
Bndr,Why deal with this? Your rt,why waste the effort. You still suck btw.'08. :wavey:

faawrenchbndr
02-09-2010, 08:29
Bndr,Why deal with this? Your rt,why waste the effort. You still suck btw.'08. :wavey:

I'm not very smart. I don't give up easily, and I guess I'm on the couch a lot, Commanding Armies!
Nice to know you think you think so highly of me. :wavey: FUT! :supergrin:

Mayhem like Me
02-09-2010, 08:46
That is definitely untrue. There are plenty of thread locking compounds that are would survive without an issue on the bolt carrier of an AR.


However, staking is the proper choice for a field repairable weapon.

True but then they cannot be replaced in the field if needed and if you drop a BC on the key they will get buggared and unservicable..

A new key is easy to install and stake properly, really I cannot understand this debate, a properly staked key with correct bolts will not come loose during shooting.

Onmilo
02-09-2010, 09:00
True but then they cannot be replaced in the field if needed and if you drop a BC on the key they will get buggared and unservicable..

A new key is easy to install and stake properly, really I cannot understand this debate, a properly staked key with correct bolts will not come loose during shooting.

That's why there are repair trucks in the field for .mil and a spare carrier should be in your field repair kit.

They don't come loose, they shear the threads.
This can't be repaired and the carrier is trashed anyway.

K. Foster
02-09-2010, 09:03
Why not machine the gas key and the carrier as one part? I know some of the piston guns do that.

Because it would probably triple the cost of the bolt carrier.

Onmilo
02-09-2010, 09:08
Because it would probably triple the cost of the bolt carrier.

Have you ever tried to drill an angled through hole in a one piece machined part?
There is no through hole in a piston gun, it doesn't need it.
The seperate piston impacts a solid surface on the carrier to initiate bolt cycle.

Mayhem like Me
02-09-2010, 09:13
That's why there are repair trucks in the field for .mil and a spare carrier should be in your field repair kit.

They don't come loose, they shear the threads.
This can't be repaired and the carrier is trashed anyway.


They do come loose if not properly staked seen it dozens of times sheared not so much....

Onmilo
02-09-2010, 09:19
They do come loose if not properly staked seen it dozens of times sheared not so much....

Please tell me, How many bolt cycles did the weapon achieve before the loose carrier keys were noticed?

K. Foster
02-09-2010, 10:09
Have you ever tried to drill an angled through hole in a one piece machined part?
There is no through hole in a piston gun, it doesn't need it.
The seperate piston impacts a solid surface on the carrier to initiate bolt cycle.

Iím aware of that. My comment was in response to Reb 56's question as to why the key could not be an integral part of the carrier on direct impingement guns. Piston guns are a whole other subject.
My answer was that making the key an integral part of the carrier would probably triple the cost of the carrier. So, in the long run, itís not practical.

SVTNate
02-09-2010, 11:24
Mine is staked, loc-tited, welded, blessed by a shaman, and then I use bubble gum as the final level of protection. When I'm ghosting tangos at the range or posing with my tacticool AR in front of the bedroom mirror in my undies before bed, I know that my gas key will not fail me.

MCKNBRD
02-09-2010, 11:39
Mine is staked, loc-tited, welded, blessed by a shaman, and then I use bubble gum as the final level of protection. When I'm ghosting tangos at the range or posing with my tacticool AR in front of the bedroom mirror in my undies before bed, I know that my gas key will not fail me.
^^^
Now THAT is funny, right thar. I don't care who you are. :rofl:

shineybore
02-09-2010, 11:44
shineybore, almost thought you were serious. barely caught the fine print there


I thought I would lighten the mood up around here. I get a ton of information I had no idea even exsisted. Lot's of good knowledge and experience here but, lots of chest thumping alpha male egos here also. Sometimes you just have to have a little fun. :supergrin:

Onmilo
02-09-2010, 14:08
Iím aware of that. My comment was in response to Reb 56's question as to why the key could not be an integral part of the carrier on direct impingement guns. Piston guns are a whole other subject.
My answer was that making the key an integral part of the carrier would probably triple the cost of the carrier. So, in the long run, itís not practical.

I understand and wasn't specifically going after your post, it was just the most relevant to the reply I wanted to make.
There is nothing that can't be done, providing you are willing to spend the moola! :supergrin:

Mayhem like Me
02-09-2010, 14:23
Please tell me, How many bolt cycles did the weapon achieve before the loose carrier keys were noticed?

I have seen them prior to 1000 rounds in lower teir carbines one DPMS locked up in the upper and gouged it.. but you know what ALL of them were put back in service with new bolts and proper staking. The DPMS gun still runs I staked his with a large punch it was the only riifle he could afford at the time and with an upgraded extractor new gas rings and a stake job it still runs..

Mayhem like Me
02-09-2010, 14:30
We're not talking blue loc-Tite here, whole different level of thread locking compounds.
Even without the compound a properly torqued screw will not come loose.
Even in the way way back of the TDP, staking was a redundency, not a necessity.
Things have changed since the technical data package was written 45 years ago, new techniques have come about.

You should look into modern technology sometime and stop worshipping "The List" :whistling:

Could you please tell me what technical bulliten these compounds came out in, my last colt armorers update in Nov 2009 neglected this information..?

K. Foster
02-09-2010, 14:53
I understand and wasn't specifically going after your post, it was just the most relevant to the reply I wanted to make.
There is nothing that can't be done, providing you are willing to spend the moola! :supergrin:

:supergrin:

Glock-it-to-me
02-09-2010, 15:14
DD states "properly staked gas key" on their specs.

faawrenchbndr
02-09-2010, 15:25
Mine is staked, loc-tited, welded, blessed by a shaman, and then I use bubble gum as the final level of protection. When I'm ghosting tangos at the range or posing with my tacticool AR in front of the bedroom mirror in my undies before bed, I know that my gas key will not fail me.

I just put a 1" piece of duct tape on mine,....that should hold it.

wingsprint
02-09-2010, 17:37
Some of the 45 year old Mil Spec's for the M/AR series rifles have been surpassed by technology. For example:


Properly staked gas key- with the creation of high temp thread lockers, staking is worthless and unnecessary.


MPI testing- A 75 year old technology (old wooden ship) which is almost worthless in detecting flaws that could lead to a failure

Keep in mind that we had not made it to the moon yet when these spec's were created...

Soviet937
02-09-2010, 19:02
what chart?? i wanna see it

AK_Stick
02-09-2010, 20:16
True but then they cannot be replaced in the field if needed and if you drop a BC on the key they will get buggared and unservicable..

A new key is easy to install and stake properly, really I cannot understand this debate, a properly staked key with correct bolts will not come loose during shooting.



Again, not true, Rocksett would be a perfect example of a field replaceable thread locking compound that would easily removed and replaced.

I assure you, there are plenty of thread locking compounds out there that can take the heat of your rifles gas system. I use some of them every day. FAA wrench bender probably does too. Being as we're both aviation mechanics I would bet dollars to doughnuts you're probably out of your league talking thread locking compounds with us.

Onmilo
02-09-2010, 20:53
Again, not true, Rocksett would be a perfect example of a field replaceable thread locking compound that would easily removed and replaced.

I assure you, there are plenty of thread locking compounds out there that can take the heat of your rifles gas system. I use some of them every day. FAA wrench bender probably does too. Being as we're both aviation mechanics I would bet dollars to doughnuts you're probably out of your league talking thread locking compounds with us.

I'm leaving this alone.
The guy is argueing for the sake of argueing.

The name of the technical manual we are trying to explain to him is called,,,,
"Thinking Outside the Box."

faawrenchbndr
02-09-2010, 21:05
Again, not true, Rocksett would be a perfect example of a field replaceable thread locking compound that would easily removed and replaced.

I assure you, there are plenty of thread locking compounds out there that can take the heat of your rifles gas system. I use some of them every day. FAA wrench bender probably does too. Being as we're both aviation mechanics I would bet dollars to doughnuts you're probably out of your league talking thread locking compounds with us.

I've been in one too many arguments today. Dad is a bit pissed with me.

A smart man, AK_Stick is. :supergrin::supergrin:

Mayhem like Me
02-12-2010, 14:15
What is it you don't understand???? a properly speced and staked carrier key does not shoot loose, so 45 odd years of technology has not improved on that???

Yep just what I thought !!!just because you can , does not make it better!

Mayhem like Me
02-12-2010, 14:17
Again, not true, Rocksett would be a perfect example of a field replaceable thread locking compound that would easily removed and replaced.

I assure you, there are plenty of thread locking compounds out there that can take the heat of your rifles gas system. I use some of them every day. FAA wrench bender probably does too. Being as we're both aviation mechanics I would bet dollars to doughnuts you're probably out of your league talking thread locking compounds with us.

I would bet you are out of your league talking this weapons sysem with me...
I have about 15 years keeping an armory full of them mostly SBR's running just fine without the newest wonderset!!!!

AK_Stick
02-12-2010, 15:01
I would bet you are out of your league talking this weapons sysem with me...
I have about 15 years keeping an armory full of them mostly SBR's running just fine without the newest wonderset!!!!


Ok hoss I can see didn't follow what I was saying.

I was not saying staking is wrong. All I said, is there are thread locking compounds that would easily hold up to the little bit of abuse that an AR-15's operating system has. There are other ways of doing exactly what the staking on the M-16 bolt does. Just because the TDP says stake, does not mean doing another method of hardware retention would be wrong, or any less reliable, just different.

You claimed that after 100 rounds the TLC's would be done. This is vastly incorrect. You then compounded this error by saying that if you used a TLC you wouldn't be able to replace it in the field. Which again is untrue.

Statements like that, are what makes me believe, you are obviously out of the loop when it comes to talking TLC's and staking. Several members of this discussion are professional aviation mechanics. We literally make our living staking bearings, and parts. Using high temp TLC's and silicates, and several methods of various safeties for hardware, and component retention.

I can assure you that the operating conditions a weapons bolt faces, are a far cry from those of the inside of a turbine jet exhaust. Yet we have compounds that can be used on the internal hardware of the exhaust.

Thats all that I've said.

faawrenchbndr
02-12-2010, 15:18
This place is gettin to be as bad as ARFcom!

There is more than one way to skin a rabbit!

Glockdude1
02-12-2010, 15:26
Currently, there is a whole bunch ado about nothing worries published about AR's on the internet. I am having a hard time not really pissing off a bunch of internet experts. So I am not going to say much. The staking paranoia is just one of the items I could rant about.

Number two, the brand bashing and reliability concerns are all easy fixes. There is not one brand of AR on the market that can't be made very reliable with just a couple simple and inexpensive additions. They are the BCM heavy duty extractor upgrade with d ring. The next simple fix is proper lubrication.

The last item is to replace wear items when they are supposed to be replaced. Worn out magazines is a problem. Extractor, buffer, trigger, and related springs. That's about it.

None of the so called lesser brands are going to dissenagrate due to poor materials used. None of them are using poor materials.

:perfect10:_______:number1:

wingsprint
02-12-2010, 15:59
Ok hoss I can see didn't follow what I was saying.

I was not saying staking is wrong. All I said, is there are thread locking compounds that would easily hold up to the little bit of abuse that an AR-15's operating system has. There are other ways of doing exactly what the staking on the M-16 bolt does. Just because the TDP says stake, does not mean doing another method of hardware retention would be wrong, or any less reliable, just different.

You claimed that after 100 rounds the TLC's would be done. This is vastly incorrect. You then compounded this error by saying that if you used a TLC you wouldn't be able to replace it in the field. Which again is untrue.

Statements like that, are what makes me believe, you are obviously out of the loop when it comes to talking TLC's and staking. Several members of this discussion are professional aviation mechanics. We literally make our living staking bearings, and parts. Using high temp TLC's and silicates, and several methods of various safeties for hardware, and component retention.

I can assure you that the operating conditions a weapons bolt faces, are a far cry from those of the inside of a turbine jet exhaust. Yet we have compounds that can be used on the internal hardware of the exhaust.

Thats all that I've said.

Agree 100%.

Some are failing to understand that no one is saying that staking is bad, the point is that things have changed in the last 45 years. Some worship “The Chart” and the 45 year old technical data package (TDP) it is based on. Many are lead to believe that it is the undisputable authority on what makes an AR good or bad. The issue is that “The Chart” it is based on some (not all) very outdated standards and technology.

For example- Some AR’s are considered not to be top tier because they are listed as not having “proper staking” and “MPI testing”. As you can see from the post above, the need for staking has been replaced with thread locking compounds. Now let’s talk about MPI testing. It is silly to be wrapped around the axle about MPI testing of the BCG and barrel. Has anyone taken the time to ask a company why they do not MPI their BCG’s and barrels? You might be surprised to find that some companies do not MPI BCG’s and barrels because it adds unnecessary cost to the product. Much has changed in the last 45 years. Magnetic Particle Inspection a.k.a. Magnaflux is a 74 year old technology that can only detect surface flaws (no more than about .100˝ to .250˝ below the surface of the metal) of the object being tested at the time of testing. There is nothing magical about it. It does not alter the metallurgy in any way. It does not make a BCG or barrel any more or less failure prone than any another. If a company is not planning on selling AR’s to the military, why would they add cost to meet outdated standards that are unnecessary?

faawrenchbndr
02-12-2010, 17:25
Thanks Wingsprint,.........seems you understand where AK_Stick and myself are trying to say.

Gues you have to look at it from a "mechanics" eye to see what we're talking about.

Constructor
02-12-2010, 18:31
Currently, there is a whole bunch ado about nothing worries published about AR's on the internet. I am having a hard time not really pissing off a bunch of internet experts. So I am not going to say much. The staking paranoia is just one of the items I could rant about.

Number two, the brand bashing and reliability concerns are all easy fixes. There is not one brand of AR on the market that can't be made very reliable with just a couple simple and inexpensive additions. They are the BCM heavy duty extractor upgrade with d ring. The next simple fix is proper lubrication.

The last item is to replace wear items when they are supposed to be replaced. Worn out magazines is a problem. Extractor, buffer, trigger, and related springs. That's about it.

None of the so called lesser brands are going to dissenagrate due to poor materials used. SOME of them are using poor materials.

Most commercial bolts are 8620 and some of those along with carriers are not heat treated properly. Someone shooting a Grendel compressed the lugs .010 in one slightly hot load. He said the case looked like a belted magnum but he just ordered another 7.62x39 bolt , no other damage.

Wild Gene
02-12-2010, 19:40
WOW! All I need is a pizza and beer, dont' get no better than this.

It sure is funny how rude some people can be, so brave hiding behind their keyboards. I'm with you bndr. I think I'm gonna go get in my underwear and pose in front of the mirror too.

WG

Frog1
02-12-2010, 21:48
Man, look what I started. I guess I should have taken the time to explain by comments better.

Lesser Brands Stag, CMMG, DPMS, Del Ton, M&A, and probably Model 1 are considered lesser brands.

DPMS used cast recievers for awhile in their entry level guns. Olympic arms did the same.

I never looked at Oly arms as a viable candidate. Maybe they are better now. The picture of the catastrophic failure could have been due to cast parts. Or like the catastrophic failures of the Colts and Bushmasters I have seen due to bad forging. In any case, it can happen to any brand.

The staking is not the primary failure issue with an AR15. If the bolts unstake, you have a flawed carrier. The thread and bolt profile should hold with no staking. The carrier is considered junk at that point. Don't try to re-tighten and stake.

Any of the makers using contractor supplied parts is going to be ok. MP, hardness, pressure, and destructive sample testing is normal for a qualified manufacturer. 100% testing is not required if you have been qualified.

You can argue about the different acceptable alloy numbers all you want. But several are qualified to be used in MIL Spec M16 rifle parts. Are some better than others, sure.

Last but not least, the AR15/M16 is designed to be a disposable weapon. They are not suppossed to be rebuilt. The mean life span with a chrome line barrel is 10,000 rounds for full auto service. About 20,000 for semi auto applications. By the time you reach that limit, none of the remaining parts are worth salvage.

Unlike the M1 Garand, M14, and even the M1 carbine, the AR is not designed to be renewed several times.

I think that folks need to buy what they can afford and enjoy shooting their clones. If I had to use one for a working gun, I too would want the best. But I would not be afraid to use any, except Oly, with a proper extractor and good mags if I had too.

HAIL CAESAR
02-12-2010, 22:18
Man, look what I started. I guess I should have taken the time to explain by comments better.

Lesser Brands Stag, CMMG, DPMS, Del Ton, M&A, and probably Model 1 are considered lesser brands.

DPMS used cast recievers for awhile in their entry level guns. Olympic arms did the same.

I never looked at Oly arms as a viable candidate. Maybe they are better now. The picture of the catastrophic failure could have been due to cast parts. Or like the catastrophic failures of the Colts and Bushmasters I have seen due to bad forging. In any case, it can happen to any brand.

The staking is not the primary failure issue with an AR15. If the bolts unstake, you have a flawed carrier. The thread and bolt profile should hold with no staking. The carrier is considered junk at that point. Don't try to re-tighten and stake.

Any of the makers using contractor supplied parts is going to be ok. MP, hardness, pressure, and destructive sample testing is normal for a qualified manufacturer. 100% testing is not required if you have been qualified.

You can argue about the different acceptable alloy numbers all you want. But several are qualified to be used in MIL Spec M16 rifle parts. Are some better than others, sure.

Last but not least, the AR15/M16 is designed to be a disposable weapon. They are not suppossed to be rebuilt. The mean life span with a chrome line barrel is 10,000 rounds for full auto service. About 20,000 for semi auto applications. By the time you reach that limit, none of the remaining parts are worth salvage.

Unlike the M1 Garand, M14, and even the M1 carbine, the AR is not designed to be renewed several times.

I think that folks need to buy what they can afford and enjoy shooting their clones. If I had to use one for a working gun, I too would want the best. But I would not be afraid to use any, except Oly, with a proper extractor and good mags if I had too.

I read that 3 times and the things I could understand when reading it were wrong. The rest is confusing at best.

WellArmedSheep
02-12-2010, 22:52
what chart?? i wanna see it

It'll only tell you that your rifle that's been 100% reliable through tens of thousands of rounds is, in fact, a piece a junk.

Onmilo
02-13-2010, 00:59
:grill::drink::popcorn:

kirgi08
02-13-2010, 03:47
Thanks Wingsprint,.........seems you understand where AK_Stick and myself are trying to say.

Gues/s you have to look at it from a "mechanics" eye to see what we're talking about.

I agree, some do and some don't.'08.


Fixed your spellin/kinda. :supergrin:

HAIL CAESAR
02-13-2010, 06:27
It'll only tell you that your rifle that's been 100% reliable through tens of thousands of rounds is, in fact, a piece a junk.

If that is what you read into it, then that is what you read into it. But nowhere does it say "junk" and "not junk". It is purely a list of features. It is up to the potential buyer it decide what he/she wants and doesn't want.

ottomatic
02-14-2010, 16:42
And most use Rocksett thread locker. It's good the about 1100 degrees C


How do you "break" it if you have to?

Onmilo
02-14-2010, 17:44
How do you "break" it if you have to?

You shouldn't ever have to.

ottomatic
02-15-2010, 13:52
You shouldn't ever have to.

The whole reason to have detachable gas keys is the ability to replace them if they are damaged.

AK_Stick
02-15-2010, 14:41
How do you "break" it if you have to?


You get a tool, in this case a hex driver or bit, and take the screw out. simple as that. It takes about 30 lbs of force to overcome the bonding of Rocksett


Rocksett is really basically really tough, non temp sensitive loc-tite.

faawrenchbndr
02-15-2010, 15:57
Looks like AK_Stick beat me to it.

Rocksett is great stuff,

GlockFish
02-15-2010, 20:24
Currently, there is a whole bunch ado about nothing worries published about AR's on the internet. I am having a hard time not really pissing off a bunch of internet experts. So I am not going to say much. The staking paranoia is just one of the items I could rant about.

Number two, the brand bashing and reliability concerns are all easy fixes. There is not one brand of AR on the market that can't be made very reliable with just a couple simple and inexpensive additions. They are the BCM heavy duty extractor upgrade with d ring. The next simple fix is proper lubrication.

The last item is to replace wear items when they are supposed to be replaced. Worn out magazines is a problem. Extractor, buffer, trigger, and related springs. That's about it.

None of the so called lesser brands are going to dissenagrate due to poor materials used. None of them are using poor materials.

would you mind listing your credentials, please ?

He is Frog.

He does not need to prove himself to you.

:wavey:

ottomatic
02-17-2010, 09:00
You get a tool, in this case a hex driver or bit, and take the screw out. simple as that. It takes about 30 lbs of force to overcome the bonding of Rocksett


Rocksett is really basically really tough, non temp sensitive loc-tite.


Appreciate the info. I will likely get some.