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slims00ls1z28
02-13-2010, 00:21
I'm not a reloader. However my dad has been doing it since before I was born. So I'm pretty sure he's experienced enough to handle it and is salivating to get me to let him reload my ammo. I told him I wanted the "full house loads" as I have read on here which was the purpose of me choosing the 10mm over the .45. I was planning on copying the data on here to give him (even though he said all he needs is one round of whatever I get to duplicate) so he can load the good stuff. He's got gobs of books and all the equipment and even one book that tells him what rifle brass can be cut down to use for pistol ammo. But he's not internet savvy and don't know if he'd be able to navigate this forum.

What threw up red flags was the disclaimer. I have a G29 on order. So it will be box stock. I planned on buying some DT until I read the post under McNett's. Will a stock G29 fire DT (155gr Barnes is what I was looking at) with no problems or am I going to have to have my dad to check brass and headspaces and all that greek stuff to me, and buy springs and barrel upgrades?

If it will be fine then I'll have him reload nothing but the "full house" and just use whatever supply of off the shelf stuff to replenish brass and the like. I just don't want it to go boom in a way it's not supposed to.

MakeMineA10mm
02-13-2010, 11:51
These are great questions and I'm sure you'll get a variety of answers. Here's my shot:

The G29 is NOT optimum for hot-rodding the 10mm. The G29 WILL handle any SAAMI-approved load you put through it. Buffalo Bore and Double Tap are a little on the hot side for a stock G-29, in MY opinion.

You really have two options with one option being split into two parts:

1(a) - Buy upgrade barrel and spring for your G-29. You want something that has "full chamber support". The problem with Glock's factory chambers is that they make them loose (for reliability), and this leaves a small portion of the case at the feed ramp a little under-supported for the level of loads we're talking about here. This will cause "Glock smilies" or blown cases in worst case scenarios.

1(b) - Buy a G-20 and an upgrade barrel and springs. This is a better option for shooting full-power 10mm ammo. The longer slide provides heavier weight, which is what helps keep the slide closed longer, keeping pressures from being higher when the brass starts to extract and become un-supported or less-supported. In addition, the longer slide allows a longer recoil spring area, which means it's easier to get heavier springs in it, which also helps.

2 - Ask your dad to load ammo that is 95% of what you see here. This will let you get near-top performance without stressing the gun and brass so much. For example - if a max load is 300.0grs of AA#8 powder with a 400gr bullet and this gives you 1300fps, you may want to load 280grs of that powder with that bullet and accept 1200fps as still a powerful load, but one that does not stress your G-29. (These is an obviously fictitious example to give you the concept. A real life result might be a 180gr bullet at 1200fps. This is FAR hotter than you'll find most factory ammo loaded to, but it's a relatively mild-pressure load (compared to the super-hot Double Tap and Buffalo Bore).


I'll end off with one more suggestion. Loading the 10mm to these levels requires a pretty sophisticated aspect of measuring pressures and tailoring the load to the gun. Without understanding these concepts as they relate to this cartridge, I'd be nervous going for the 100% loads. This makes Option 2 above really enticing. No matter what route you decide to take, I'd suggest your dad use Accurate Arms #9 powder. This powder is at a very good balance point in terms of pressure vs. filling up the case vs. getting good velocities. It's also a ball powder and flows very smoothly through powder measures, which your dad will like. It works well for either the 95% loads or the 100% loads, so you can't go wrong with it, whichever way you go with the above ideas.

Taterhead
02-13-2010, 13:17
I certainly am not comfortable with shooting another's rocketship handloads. There is too much acute attention to detail required that cannot be accomplished by having one person load ammo to hand off to another to shoot. Full-house+ loads are riskier to shoot and there is a slim margin for error.

If you do decide to go with your Dad's loads, I suggest avoiding some of the internet recipes and refer to the widely available load data published by component manufacturers. However, do not assume that published maxes are safe in your firearm. It is not necessary to load those recipes to the max. You will still have ammo that is vastly more powerful than the .45 ACP - with a little extra margin for safety.

Good hanloading procedures include starting at low charge levels and working up slowly. Brass must be carefully inspected for indications of excess pressures each step of the way. Your Dad should be with you to carefully expect the brass that you shoot. When I am working on a new recipe, I make several batches of gradually increasing charge weights. My practice is to shoot, find the spent case, inspect, measure and repeat. I log the results of each round, and have done so for every load developed. Sometimes I chrony velocities too. Without having personal experience, you may not be able to spot signs of excess pressure and could be dealing with an unsafe situation without knowing it.

MMA10 is an extremely knowledgeable resource. He is correct that an aftermarket barrel would increase cartridge support. This is highly recommended for the experienced hanloader that likes to stretch the envelope. However, I have not felt the need to swap my stock barrel. I do shoot full power loads like those from Buffalo Bore, and I handload to hot pressures too. I have generally not had issues with Glock smiles or other excess bulging issues with the stock barrel. That being said, I have spent a lot of time becoming familiar with the way that loads respond in my firearm. I have a good understanding of what is "normal" in my barrel. FWIW I do run with a #22 lb aftermarket spring and guide rod.

If there is still time to change the order, I would suggest switching to the G20. Unless carrying concealed is planned, the G20 will perform better than the G20 in terms of recoil management, follow-up shots, grip size and sight lines. If not, the G29 will be a fine and reliable platform.

Question: you mentioned some "disclaimer" that you read. What is that and where did you find it.

Have fun and stay safe.

slims00ls1z28
02-13-2010, 23:08
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179485
Tazz's disclaimer. Actually it was MMA10's post under Tazz's disclaimer.

Thanks for the info, Glad I read this part because I just planned on getting the DT's then having pops load similar rounds for it. Then I read the thread above and was like whoa. Didn't notice any of this when cruising through the "10 ring" when everyone was suggesting "full house loads".

He's got all the books so I'm sure he can handle the manufactures stuff, I just got a little confused reading everyones, "go full house", so I was like OK I want that, and from my understanding they weren't the published stuff but the stuff DT and the like loads. Now I'm going to do like MMA said and make sure he knows how to taylor the rounds to the gun. He's a gun fanatic and eyeing becoming a smith when he retires so I'm thinking he can. I know he had did custom stuff for my wife's 642 the same day (from memory) when she said she wasn't comfortable with the Corbon we got her for SD. I'd study up and do it myself but it would probably hurt his feelings lol.

Yea, I got the 29 because I am going to carry concealed. 20 will be my next but for now the 29 will be it. I'll just get him to do like MMA10 suggested until I get the barrel etc.
Thanks again.

MakeMineA10mm
02-14-2010, 00:41
Slim,
Thanks for giving us that extra info of your purpose for a G-29, as that helps gear advice for you.

Don't tell anyone around here, because I'll probably be excommunicated, but I have never modified my G29 with a new barrel or aftermarket springs nor shot hot loads in it... :wow:

I see the G29 as a concealed-carry piece, rather than a general-duty pistol. As such, I don't envision myself doing many things with it that I might with a G-20 or other full-sized 10mm. (Such as carrying as a duty gun on patrol or carrying as a gun in the field while back-packing or hunting.)

I've been in law enforcement for 21 years now. Started off at a Sheriff's Dept., and while there, I carried my G-20 as a duty gun for the last five or six years I was there. The high-capacity and high-power of the 10mm round gave me great comfort when my closest back-up was 15 minutes away and I might have to punch through some barriers to hit my target. (As it turned out, I never needed it for "serious social purposes," thankfully.) Now, having been semi-plain-clothes for the last 11 years, 99% of my work involves interviews and face-to-face contact with people. In that situation, I don't need super-penetrating and super-powerful loads. I'd be perfectly happy with Hydra-Shoks (180gr @ ~950fps) which are FBI-loads and equivalent to a 40S&W. Now, in the G-29, they shoot softer than an equivalent 40S&W load in a G-23, which means faster recovery, which means more accuracy and speedier rounds on target. So for CC (or plain-clothes) the G-29 with FBI loads isn't bad.

I reserve my high-powered 10mm ammo for my G-20s with tight barrels and ISMI springs.

slims00ls1z28
02-14-2010, 04:04
OK cool one last question then (actually a couple, sorry noob to glocks and 10mm's and I'm the only one for miles with a 10mm). I already bought a box of CorBon JHP's, 165g 1250fps 573 lb ft, these here, though I bought locally and paid more than that http://www.northwestshootersupply.com/corbon9mmp90grjhpammo20rds.aspx.
Where do those fit in the heirachy of 10mm? Will those be fine on a regular shooting basis or would you consider it hot or too close for comfort? I like to train how I play so to speak so I would want to shoot as much as possible the same power load as I carry and I plan on shooting it as much as possible. At this point it will be cheaper to just save that box vs buying parts for the gun to accomidate it and it's going to be a while before I get the G20. If it is a "that's pushing close" type round then I'm not risking it, I'll just have some standard pressure load with good JHP's.

BusDrvr
02-14-2010, 13:12
......

MakeMineA10mm
02-15-2010, 11:57
slim,
I think those are fine, top-end type loads for a G29. These super-hot loads we are warning you about and needing barrels and springs and careful handloading practices would push a 200gr bullet as fast as that 165gr load from Cor-Bon. So, that means, IMO, that the 165@1250 load from Cor-Bon is high-powered, but not excessively so. It's a good example of a top-end load for the G-29.

I see what you mean about practicing with what you carry. That is a modern firearms trainer's concept and it's a good, logical argument. "Train the way you fight," is a good short-hand description of this, and this makes very good sense.

"Back in the old days," when police carried S&W Model 19s, trainers used to recommend shooting 38s for training because they were cheaper and still taught one the handling characteristics of your pistol and you have the same principles of marksmanship with light loads as you do with heavy loads... (Then, of course, for duty use, the officers would load 357 Magnums...) There's a lot of anecdotal data indicating that this concept works well, because in a real shooting situation, most officers (or big-game hunters) don't notice how loud the gun is or how hard it kicks... (Auditory exclusion and tunnel vision.)

I think for the G-29 or any other pistol that is a compromise between performance and compactness, such as a Detonics, or other officer's model sized 1911, I'd use the "old-fashioned" concept and shoot them for practice with target loads and save the 230gr +P HST rounds for carry use. If I have a full-size duty gun, like the G20 or Kimber CDP, etc., I'd use the modern concept and shoot full-power ammo for practice. This is based solely on the idea of what stress should be put on the gun, with recognition that both training concepts described above have merit.