Pistol Grip Buttstock [Archive] - Glock Talk

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tarmac
02-13-2010, 08:52
I have a 12 gauge Remington Express with the 18Ē barrel, Cylinder Bore, and 2 shot magazine extension. Iím thinking of changing the factory synthetic stock for a Speedfeed 4 pistol grip buttstock. Any thoughts on this style stock?

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=935944

B Coyote
02-13-2010, 09:02
Those are good stocks, especially if you get the one with the reduced length of pull.

bc

mixflip
02-13-2010, 09:48
The adjustable LOP sounds great but I have heard personal opinions vary on the speed feed system. One guy said when he went to retrieve the first round, the 2nd round would forcefully fly out on the ground if he was under stress or pumped up full of adrenaline vs his old saddle setup. He also mentioned that his did not have enough spring tension to hold only one in place and it would sometimes fall out as he was loading the 1st shell? I hope that is not a common issue?

Of course this is not the guns fault but more of a training issue I suppose most would say since moving slower would stop this right? But then is it really a speed feed since you need to be cautious and smooth on retrieval or is it just an alternative way to carry 4 rounds of spare ammo?

tarmac
02-13-2010, 11:20
The adjustable LOP sounds great but I have heard personal opinions vary on the speed feed system. One guy said when he went to retrieve the first round, the 2nd round would forcefully fly out on the ground if he was under stress or pumped up full of adrenaline vs his old saddle setup. He also mentioned that his did not have enough spring tension to hold only one in place and it would sometimes fall out as he was loading the 1st shell? I hope that is not a common issue?

Of course this is not the guns fault but more of a training issue I suppose most would say since moving slower would stop this right? But then is it really a speed feed since you need to be cautious and smooth on retrieval or is it just an alternative way to carry 4 rounds of spare ammo?


The stock Iím looking at is the standard design not the one that holds extra shells. I have my 870 fitted with a six shell side saddle. I have a link attached to my post showing the one Iím looking at.

byf43
02-13-2010, 11:27
Those are good stocks, especially if you get the one with the reduced length of pull.

bc



Agreed. I believe it's called the Speedfeed IV-S.

I have the Speedfeed III (pistolgripped stock w/shellholders).
It is a nice stock, but, the LOP is a little long, and I'm over 6'-05".

Victoriagotagun
02-13-2010, 11:39
They are great stocks. The only complaint I have heard is that the grip feels a little blocky to some but that can be easily changed. I too recommend the IV-S version with shorter LOP.

tarmac
02-13-2010, 11:42
Those are good stocks, especially if you get the one with the reduced length of pull.

bc

Did you have any trouble installing the stock? Did to have to use washers?

David Armstrong
02-13-2010, 13:30
IME, the pistol stock reduces the overall usability of the fighting shotgun. It works well in a special tool role, but for general use the standard stock (properly fitted) is better.

Bill Lumberg
02-13-2010, 13:43
I had the option of just about any kind of stock I wanted. I chose the stock you're looking at. Love it, as noted- make sure you are okay with the pull, because the longest ones are a little long for me. I have one on my issue and my personal shotguns.

I have a 12 gauge Remington Express with the 18Ē barrel, Cylinder Bore, and 2 shot magazine extension. Iím thinking of changing the factory synthetic stock for a Speedfeed 4 pistol grip buttstock. Any thoughts on this style stock?

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=935944

tarmac
02-13-2010, 14:22
Is the shorter pull harder to install? Do you need to add washers to the long bolt that holds the stock?

Streetking
02-14-2010, 01:37
I understand they do require some fitting with the forend.

22highcaps
02-14-2010, 04:07
IME, the pistol stock reduces the overall usability of the fighting shotgun. It works well in a special tool role, but for general use the standard stock (properly fitted) is better.


I will agree with you in the case of Mossberg shotguns due to their tang safeties and slide release position.

However, in the case of the Remington 870, which is the gun the OP is asking about, I have to disagree. The safety becomes easier to use with a SF IV or SF IV-S stock especially if used with a Vang Comp BHS. I find every aspect of shooting a "fighting shotgun" easier with the IV-S than the conventional stock.

The only time I prefer a conventional shotgun stock on a 870 is for a trap/bird hunting gun.

Puppy
02-14-2010, 10:13
The adjustable LOP sounds great but I have heard personal opinions vary on the speed feed system. One guy said when he went to retrieve the first round, the 2nd round would forcefully fly out on the ground if he was under stress or pumped up full of adrenaline vs his old saddle setup. He also mentioned that his did not have enough spring tension to hold only one in place and it would sometimes fall out as he was loading the 1st shell? I hope that is not a common issue?

Of course this is not the guns fault but more of a training issue I suppose most would say since moving slower would stop this right? But then is it really a speed feed since you need to be cautious and smooth on retrieval or is it just an alternative way to carry 4 rounds of spare ammo?

I think speed feed stock systems are great, much better than side saddles IMHO however you have to be aware that some brands of shells do not have enough of a "lip" around the edge/rim of the crimp for them to reliably catch on. & without a good lip on the rim of the crimp of the shell it'll cause the problems you describe.

MBG20
02-14-2010, 11:28
ive got one for sale on ar15.com $75 shipped...

David Armstrong
02-15-2010, 11:37
However, in the case of the Remington 870, which is the gun the OP is asking about, I have to disagree. The safety becomes easier to use with a SF IV or SF IV-S stock especially if used with a Vang Comp BHS. I find every aspect of shooting a "fighting shotgun" easier with the IV-S than the conventional stock.
That may be your personal experience. I tend to reflect on what I have seen over a couple of decades training people to use the shotgun in fighting situations, and that experience has shown the regular design stock works out much better for most situations than does the pistol grip design, be it Mossberg, Remington, Winchester, Beretta, or others. Shortening the LOP does make quite a difference to the good, but the pistol grip does the opposite. YMMV.

fragout
02-15-2010, 17:08
That may be your personal experience. I tend to reflect on what I have seen over a couple of decades training people to use the shotgun in fighting situations, and that experience has shown the regular design stock works out much better for most situations than does the pistol grip design, be it Mossberg, Remington, Winchester, Beretta, or others. Shortening the LOP does make quite a difference to the good, but the pistol grip does the opposite. YMMV.

I disagree totally. Plus the speed feed style stock hasn't been used for decades. I find it much easier to sight up quickly, absorb recoil. If you notice the Army/Marines/Swat/Sar/PJ's/seals, etc.. pretty much all use 870 and Benelli's with speed feed type stocks with shortened pull(mostly because they wear armor). It may be your preference, but not from many operators I've served with. I remember hearing that argument when the Army went from the M14 to M16's.

22highcaps
02-15-2010, 19:33
That may be your personal experience. I tend to reflect on what I have seen over a couple of decades training people to use the shotgun in fighting situations, and that experience has shown the regular design stock works out much better for most situations than does the pistol grip design, be it Mossberg, Remington, Winchester, Beretta, or others. Shortening the LOP does make quite a difference to the good, but the pistol grip does the opposite. YMMV.

What problems did these people you observed typically have on the pistol gripped stocks? Would these same people prefer a conventional stock rifle like an M1A to a pistol gripped stocked AR10?

c5367
02-16-2010, 07:08
I disagree totally. Plus the speed feed style stock hasn't been used for decades. I find it much easier to sight up quickly, absorb recoil. If you notice the Army/Marines/Swat/Sar/PJ's/seals, etc.. pretty much all use 870 and Benelli's with speed feed type stocks with shortened pull(mostly because they wear armor). It may be your preference, but not from many operators I've served with. I remember hearing that argument when the Army went from the M14 to M16's.

When I was in the Corps, and in an MOS that used shotguns every day, none of our M590s or M870s had a pistol grip. The first shotgun that did was the Benelli, which was being phased in as I was getting out.

Never even saw an 870 with a pistol grip.

Ryobi
02-16-2010, 07:15
+1. Far prefer the pistol grip.


I had the option of just about any kind of stock I wanted. I chose the stock you're looking at. Love it, as noted- make sure you are okay with the pull, because the longest ones are a little long for me. I have one on my issue and my personal shotguns.

David Armstrong
02-16-2010, 09:43
If you notice the Army/Marines/Swat/Sar/PJ's/seals, etc.. pretty much all use 870 and Benelli's with speed feed type stocks with shortened pull(mostly because they wear armor).
And there is your difference. Short LOP and pistol grips have come about for a specialized CQB role while wearing bulky armor. For general defensive purposes the standard stock works better for most people. Again, reducing LOP often helps, going with a pistol grip rarely helps. The many operators I've worked with tend to have standard style stocks on their personal fighting shotguns.

David Armstrong
02-16-2010, 09:46
What problems did these people you observed typically have on the pistol gripped stocks? Would these same people prefer a conventional stock rifle like an M1A to a pistol gripped stocked AR10?
You shoot a rifle and a shotgun differently. Thus what works well for a rifle is not automatically what works well for a shotgun. And it wasn't that they had problems because of a pistol grip, it was that they performed better with a standard stock for most exercises.

David Armstrong
02-16-2010, 09:49
When I was in the Corps, and in an MOS that used shotguns every day, none of our M590s or M870s had a pistol grip.
And you still find that to be true with the occupation that uses the fighting shotgun the most these days, law enforcement. As a percentage, very few patrol shotguns will have a pistol grip.

hikerpaddler
02-16-2010, 09:53
Every one of our patrol shotguns has a pistol grip. Wouldn't go back. Between additional cost and fitting in traditional cruiser mounts, I can see why some would forego the functionality.

dualG22s
02-16-2010, 18:49
hardly anyone uses a SG in LE. Maybe for lesslethal rounds, but a SG is almost stupid for anything policing wise. Just my internet opinion.

22highcaps
02-16-2010, 18:52
You shoot a rifle and a shotgun differently. Thus what works well for a rifle is not automatically what works well for a shotgun. And it wasn't that they had problems because of a pistol grip, it was that they performed better with a standard stock for most exercises.

I have to wonder if that was because they just weren't used to the pistol grip or if the exercises had not been updated for the pistol grip.

L-2
02-16-2010, 21:57
deleted

tarmac
02-17-2010, 02:30
To answer some of tarmac's questions, no spacers or washers should be needed as there's a model made specifically for the 870.
It's not harder to install the shorter LOP version, the IV-S, if you get that one.

I tried these pistol-gripped stocks but returned to a standard stock (shortened for my build & preference). When shooting the shotgun for several hours, I started to develop tendonitis. I found my wrist position with a standard stock put my wrist in a stronger position, especially when reloading. I suppose most people won't be shooting the shotgun this much.

I'm in one of those police departments where the shotgun is still the primary long gun issued/fielded.

Advice: Get the stock. Give it a try. Don't get rid of the old straight stock just in case you don't like the pistol-gripped stock. Report back to us and tell us if/how you like it.

Good advice, thank you

mixflip
02-17-2010, 02:50
I like both pistol grip stocks and standard stocks. I own both a pistol gripped 930 SPX (semiauto) and a standard stock 590 (pump).

David Armstrong
02-17-2010, 13:09
hardly anyone uses a SG in LE. Maybe for lesslethal rounds, but a SG is almost stupid for anything policing wise. Just my internet opinion.
your internet opinion is in conflict with the facts. The shotgun is still a popular weapon among LEOs, and not just for less lethal ammo. I'd even be willing to bet a fair amount that there are more shotguns in LE cars than rifles these days, but I don't know how we would verify it.

David Armstrong
02-17-2010, 13:15
I have to wonder if that was because they just weren't used to the pistol grip or if the exercises had not been updated for the pistol grip.
Umm, why would you "update" an exercise for the pistol grip? Exercises test capability to use the firearm, and the different types of equipment get to see how they compare to other pieces of equipment. And when one is conducting a class there is a basic consideration that there is a somewhat simiklar level of training based on the type of instruction. I can't see any reason to think that shooters with regular stocks would be more used to them than those with pistol grip stocks. If thta is true, though, it would seem to suggest one should stay with the regular stock.

B Coyote
02-17-2010, 15:40
hardly anyone uses a SG in LE. Maybe for lesslethal rounds, but a SG is almost stupid for anything policing wise. Just my internet opinion.

Count me in the hardly anyone department.

bc

22highcaps
02-17-2010, 20:50
Umm, why would you "update" an exercise for the pistol grip? Exercises test capability to use the firearm, and the different types of equipment get to see how they compare to other pieces of equipment. And when one is conducting a class there is a basic consideration that there is a somewhat simiklar level of training based on the type of instruction. I can't see any reason to think that shooters with regular stocks would be more used to them than those with pistol grip stocks. If thta is true, though, it would seem to suggest one should stay with the regular stock.

I do not mean to nitpick here but I consider an exercise to be a practice drill in the use of a fiream. Qualifications are where one is tested. To put it another way an exercise is what you do develop skill and qualification is where you demonstrate it. If you haven't performed an exercise with a piece of equipment before you may not do well at first but that doesn't mean you give up.

Back to the subject at hand certain things (such as retention) are done differently. If one tries to apply conventional stock techniques to a pistol grip full stock then of course the conventional stock will seem superior.

I do not think people should let good stand in the way of better.

David Armstrong
02-18-2010, 09:44
I do not mean to nitpick here but I consider an exercise to be a practice drill in the use of a fiream. Qualifications are where one is tested.
Also not to nitpick, but having been in the training business for over 30 years one can (and often should) test a variety of issues while doing exercises. Qualification simply looks at if a certain minimum standard has been met.
Back to the subject at hand certain things (such as retention) are done differently. If one tries to apply conventional stock techniques to a pistol grip full stock then of course the conventional stock will seem superior.
And if one is using training to figure out what works best irregardless of technique then one can identify strengths and weaknesses of various designs and what is superior will come out on top.
I do not think people should let good stand in the way of better.
Agreed. Of course new does not mean better. What is better for a highly trained individual wearing heavy body armor and using a 14" barrelled gun won't necessarily be better for the typically low-trained person with a 20" tube gun and not wearing armor.

22highcaps
02-18-2010, 18:57
[QUOTE=David Armstrong;14782833]
And if one is using training to figure out what works best irregardless of technique then one can identify strengths and weaknesses of various designs and what is superior will come out on top.

/QUOTE]

Agreed.

Sometimes what is superior is so dramatically superior it is instantly appearant. Other times it takes a while to see the benefits.

HK MP5 Cop
02-19-2010, 07:11
Speedfeed IV-S is a great stock and does not need any extra spacers or anything to put on. But also that a look at the Mesa Tactical LEO M-4 style stock, I've recently switched to one and love it. I leave the stock closed, but if you want a longer LOP just open it up more. You'll have six more postions to make it longer.
hope this helps.
Clifton Dacus
Firearms Instructor
Firearms Trainer
Tac Team Leader

David Armstrong
02-19-2010, 18:49
Agreed.
Sometimes what is superior is so dramatically superior it is instantly appearant. Other times it takes a while to see the benefits.
Yes. And often what is touted as superior over time turns out to just be new and different, without any of the supposed superiority outside of a fairly narrow set of parameters.

Bill Lumberg
02-20-2010, 06:04
And sometimes wise folks sound very much like they're getting paid by the word. Woo woo. :)

dualG22s
02-22-2010, 20:08
i cant speak for all LE, just my department. My post before was probably too short. All of our squad cars have shotties for shooting hurt deer. We have rifles to shoot people. I don't ever see anyone frm swat ever bring a shotgun either.

bsg1
02-23-2010, 20:54
interesting thread; it gives credence to the phrase "different strokes for different folks." it can be argued that a shooter's "perceived" confidence in his/her weapon makes him/her more proficient with that weapon than a superior weapon that he/she has no confidence in....