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mercop
02-16-2010, 07:11
Before worrying about which gun or knife to carry, or dealing with edged weapon attacks, multiple opponents, or worse yet Ninjas, we need to first be able to deal with the round house punch.

The round house, ghetto whopper, hay maker, or whatever you want to call it is the most common first strike in the majority of fights. Some people actually have it in their head that they are willing to take on of these and then will do something. They are kidding themselves.

We get a wide variety of folks in classes. In a very short time we need to desensitize and inoculate them to a certain level of violence. Early on in classes everyone dons headgear and I give them a light shot to the side of the head from a boxing glove to ring their bell a bit. After being shown how to suppress or redirect a powerful round house punch, it is time for the helmet and boxing gloves again. This time the student with the boxing glove is told to do their best to knock the other students head off their shoulders with a round house punch. You may end up with anyone else in the class hitting you, or you hitting them. The first couple of times the person doing the hitting is reluctant to swing full force for fear of hurting their partner. After some motivation they actually swing for the fences. Seldom does anyone take anything more then a glancing blow. The confidence this gives the student in themselves and the technique is awesome to see. From this point we can move on.

The basics done well are what makes you advanced.

357sig glock
02-17-2010, 01:11
:needspics:

mercop
02-17-2010, 08:57
OK, I guess I will send you some. Seems like maybe you and I are the only ones interested in the thought that every altercation may not involve a gun:)

whoflungdo
02-17-2010, 09:10
Before worrying about which gun or knife to carry, or dealing with edged weapon attacks, multiple opponents, or worse yet Ninjas, we need to first be able to deal with the round house punch.

The round house, ghetto whopper, hay maker, or whatever you want to call it is the most common first strike in the majority of fights. Some people actually have it in their head that they are willing to take on of these and then will do something. They are kidding themselves.

We get a wide variety of folks in classes. In a very short time we need to desensitize and inoculate them to a certain level of violence. Early on in classes everyone dons headgear and I give them a light shot to the side of the head from a boxing glove to ring their bell a bit. After being shown how to suppress or redirect a powerful round house punch, it is time for the helmet and boxing gloves again. This time the student with the boxing glove is told to do their best to knock the other students head off their shoulders with a round house punch. You may end up with anyone else in the class hitting you, or you hitting them. The first couple of times the person doing the hitting is reluctant to swing full force for fear of hurting their partner. After some motivation they actually swing for the fences. Seldom does anyone take anything more then a glancing blow. The confidence this gives the student in themselves and the technique is awesome to see. From this point we can move on.

The basics done well are what makes you advanced.

That is sig material there.^^^^^^

BTDT... I took one of his classes recently in Alabama. Don't let Mercop fool you. His light punch in gloves and you wearing headgear will still leave you with cob webs... Really sends home the lesson to always be on your guard and on hit can seriously take you out of the fight.

Dreamaster
02-17-2010, 13:36
Oddly the round house punch is one of the easiest to deal with. I was in high school in the middle of the hallway and this guy said "Your karate don't mean *****" walked up to me and launched a round house punch. I simply raised my left arm, then wrapped my arm around his and locked his elbow. I was about to palm him in the face with my free hand when the teacher walked by (had my hand in the air ready to strike). She looked straight at the guy and said "Travis what are you doing!!?" He said "BUT BUT BUT... He's about to hit me." She said "Yeah, but I know him and know he doesn't start fights."

Cracked me up.

Hedo1
02-17-2010, 13:55
I've seen Mercop at a few gun shows over the years. I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one of his punches.

Deaf Smith
02-17-2010, 17:56
Take some Krav Maga. The round house punch is one of the first things you learn to deal with. It's not hard to stop it even if they guy is very strong.

Deaf

Jim S.
02-17-2010, 19:40
Hopefully you see it coming.

Dreamaster
02-21-2010, 12:05
The round house, ghetto whopper, hay maker, or whatever you want to call it is the most common first strike in the majority of fights. Some people actually have it in their head that they are willing to take on of these and then will do something. They are kidding themselves.

Mercop, do you mean by "take on one of these" simply standing there and absorbing the blow with their face before "resisting" the attack?

Biggest difference between movie fights, and real life... tournament and real life is this... the human body can not take half the abuse that is portrayed. Tournaments use rules and padding to prolong the encounters... movies are just stupid, my favorite being scenes where someone gets Van Damme kicked in the head 4 times in a row, then shrugs it off and punches him back. NO... not gonna happen. In real life, Van Damme won't be able to get 4 kicks to the head because by the second one the dude will already be laying on the ground sleeping like a baby.

If anyone thinks takng a round house to the head is a good starting point, probably do need to sign up for a Mercop class. :supergrin:

mercop
02-21-2010, 17:12
No, more of reacting by throwing a punch in defense without dealing with the one that is coming in.


Mercop, do you mean by "take on one of these" simply standing there and absorbing the blow with their face before "resisting" the attack?

Biggest difference between movie fights, and real life... tournament and real life is this... the human body can not take half the abuse that is portrayed. Tournaments use rules and padding to prolong the encounters... movies are just stupid, my favorite being scenes where someone gets Van Damme kicked in the head 4 times in a row, then shrugs it off and punches him back. NO... not gonna happen. In real life, Van Damme won't be able to get 4 kicks to the head because by the second one the dude will already be laying on the ground sleeping like a baby.

If anyone thinks takng a round house to the head is a good starting point, probably do need to sign up for a Mercop class. :supergrin:

swotivated
02-21-2010, 17:42
Take some Krav Maga. The round house punch is one of the first things you learn to deal with. It's not hard to stop it even if they guy is very strong.

Deaf

Either I need to sign up for some krav maga...or you are severely overestimating how well you'd actually fair in a real fight....

...probably both.

Currahee
02-21-2010, 20:40
The round house punch is usually the culmination of people getting their egos involved in a confrontation, and is thus very easy to avoid in the first place. The book "Meditations on Violence" covers this topic really well - the author calls it "the Monkey Dance".

That being said I totally agree it is important to have some basic hand to hand skills to supplement carrying a weapon.

Deaf Smith
02-21-2010, 20:47
Either I need to sign up for some krav maga...or you are severely overestimating how well you'd actually fair in a real fight....

...probably both.

swotivated,

I'm a 5th dan WTF Taekwondo blackbelt and I've been in KM for about 8 months so far (and I still train at TKD.) KM, unlike my art I've been in for over 30 years, is not an art! KM is pure self defense and is very physical orientated with alot of aggression training.

Now to block the round house is easy. As long as you train to see the shoulders move you can tell what type of punch is coming and from which side. Once you see the roundhouse coming you use that arm on the same side to do the block.

This youtube is on 'bursting'. Blocking the roundhouse is similar except for real powerful blocks you use the hand you would punch to instead strike a palm against their shoulder to help mitigate the power of the punch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcyRPAQRMo0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6j0II4RPqU&feature=related

Deaf

Currahee
02-22-2010, 05:32
I've been training KravMaga for about 1 1/2 years now and it is actually surprisingly easy to see and block roundhouse punches. They are slow and obvious in comparison to a good straight punch, which is one of the reasons that we spend a lot of time perfecting straight punches. They are much harder to see and by the time you detect them they can already hit you. But most people don't know how to throw a good punch.

mercop
02-22-2010, 07:36
What does KM do in the way of integrating the use of a pistol?

Deaf Smith
02-22-2010, 11:46
What does KM do in the way of integrating the use of a pistol?


None really. In fact the instructor of our KM is totaly into unarmed combat (but as I told him the first rule of unarmed combat is not to be unarmed.)

Hence I've been to other schools like SouthNarc's.

The troulbe with most 'integrated' schools is they give only a very basic set of methods and if these don't fit you, well to bad.

Deaf

swotivated
02-22-2010, 15:34
I'm a 5th dan WTF Taekwondo blackbelt and I've been in KM for about 8 months so far (and I still train at TKD.) KM, unlike my art I've been in for over 30 years, is not an art! KM is pure self defense and is very physical orientated with alot of aggression training.

Sir,

I figured you were one of the many internet ninjas I've seen posting in the forums on this site. I apologize for calling you out.

Deaf Smith
02-22-2010, 18:43
Sir,

I figured you were one of the many internet ninjas I've seen posting in the forums on this site. I apologize for calling you out.


swotivated,

Actually I think everyone who post here and tries to be an 'authority' ought to be called out. Some, like Massad Ayoob, have way way lots of 'authority' on the subjects discussed here than I will ever have!

Iím a student of the martial arts. Iíve been to quite a few shooting/SD schools including Ray Chapman, Ayoob, Givens, SouthNarc, Steve Moses, and others. Some several times. Been under three Korean Grand Masters, two of them ex-ROK military (and one was in combat in Vietnam.) KM is just the latest SD system I've studied. I also teach CHL classes for fun and profit. BUT I am no great shakes. There are people who most certainly here know more than I do and have done far more than I have.

Oh, and that Avatar of mineÖ yes thatís me, before I got grey hair!

Deaf

fastbolt
02-22-2010, 19:35
Oh, and that Avatar of mineÖ yes thatís me, before I got grey hair!

Deaf

Hey, be glad if you still have a thick head of hair.

Mine started turning loose before it started turning grey. :rofl:

Nowadays I just keep it buzzed short and no longer worry about what my motorcycle helmet does to it.

CC Glock
02-22-2010, 19:39
ill just slip the punch and take you to the ground and choke you out....i did have my first mma fight at 17 tho.

Hef
02-22-2010, 20:11
I started wrestling at 11 years old and boxing at 18. If you aren't armed when you attack me you're gonna wish you were when you wake up.

LApm9
02-22-2010, 22:10
The round house punch is usually the culmination of people getting their egos involved in a confrontation, and is thus very easy to avoid in the first place. The book "Meditations on Violence" covers this topic really well - the author calls it "the Monkey Dance".

That being said I totally agree it is important to have some basic hand to hand skills to supplement carrying a weapon.

Being able to throw up a simple high block with your weak arm is a simple act that anyone can learn and practice. It isn't even close to a lot of the stuff some of you folks can do, but it is close to instinctive and can be learned quickly.

Gallium
02-23-2010, 00:22
Being able to throw up a simple high block with your weak arm is a simple act that anyone can learn and practice. It isn't even close to a lot of the stuff some of you folks can do, but it is close to instinctive and can be learned quickly.

There are four basic blocks and parries that our (I say our, because my little kids are in it) martial arts school teaches, and requires one to finesse in order to get a "stripe" on your white belt - the high block is the very 1st one they teach :) . You also need to know how to do a certain set types of kicks, sweeps and deflections, in addition to doing X number of situps, pushups etc. Our Sifu ( 師父 ) is a mean, crafty SOB. Even if I were 20 years younger and he was 80, I would not mess with the little sinewy bastard. My belt has been unchanged for almost three years now (white ;)) . :faint:

Mercop, as always, you post some thought provoking stuff.

'Drew

Deaf Smith
02-23-2010, 18:48
Hey, be glad if you still have a thick head of hair.

Mine started turning loose before it started turning grey. :rofl:

Nowadays I just keep it buzzed short and no longer worry about what my motorcycle helmet does to it.

And I bet you save alot of money from the haircuts you don't have to pay for FB!

I guess I could go Kojak but my wife would... oh I don't know what the reaction would be (and I don't want to find out.)

Deaf

Deaf Smith
02-23-2010, 18:53
I started wrestling at 11 years old and boxing at 18. If you aren't armed when you attack me you're gonna wish you were when you wake up.

That's good Hef. You've been doing this most of your life, like me, and it's a part of you!

That's the way guys. Make it your hobby. Instead of just going to the gym couple of times a week (you DO that, right?) take up some form of SD. Boxing and KM are easy to find. Judo/wrestling isn't bad either.

Hapkido isn't bad either. Good teachers in that art are rough and you will get your lumps.

Deaf

MTPD
02-25-2010, 10:31
I've personally known 4 Karate instructors. All 4 carried concealed at all times on the street. If fists are so good, why did these hand 2 hand "experts" feel they had to carry?

By the way, one of them got shot down by his own wife when he went after her hand 2 hand. And because he was an "expert" hand 2 hand fighter, she walked.

swotivated
02-25-2010, 16:05
I've personally known 4 Karate instructors. All 4 carried concealed at all times on the street. If fists are so good, why did these hand 2 hand "experts" feel they had to carry?

By the way, one of them got shot down by his own wife when he went after her hand 2 hand. And because he was an "expert" hand 2 hand fighter, she walked.

R U 4 realz? I take your name to mean you have a LE background, which surprises me even more. Surely you have logged hundreds of hours in your agency gym training on defensive tactics and unarmed combat.

Guns fail. Plus, there are many situations you might find yourself in where you can't legally use the gun to defend yourself.

A pissed off guy confronts you in the parking lot at the grocery store because he thinks you cut him off a few blocks back. He is a nut job who's having a bad day. He wants to beat your ass. Are you going to shoot him? Are you going to sit there and take a beating? You gotta have options man.

Currahee
02-26-2010, 05:50
R U 4 realz? I take your name to mean you have a LE background, which surprises me even more. Surely you have logged hundreds of hours in your agency gym training on defensive tactics and unarmed combat.

Guns fail. Plus, there are many situations you might find yourself in where you can't legally use the gun to defend yourself.

A pissed off guy confronts you in the parking lot at the grocery store because he thinks you cut him off a few blocks back. He is a nut job who's having a bad day. He wants to beat your ass. Are you going to shoot him? Are you going to sit there and take a beating? You gotta have options man.

Don't take anything MTPD posts too seriously.

Gallium
02-26-2010, 06:33
Don't take anything MTPD posts too seriously.


I'd have to back Currahee up on that, 100%.

series1811
02-26-2010, 06:39
I'd have to back Currahee up on that, 100%.

And, thirded. He's trying to find a section of GT where no one knows of him. :supergrin:

JohnN
02-26-2010, 13:05
R U 4 realz? I take your name to mean you have a LE background, which surprises me even more. Surely you have logged hundreds of hours in your agency gym training on defensive tactics and unarmed combat.

Guns fail. Plus, there are many situations you might find yourself in where you can't legally use the gun to defend yourself.

A pissed off guy confronts you in the parking lot at the grocery store because he thinks you cut him off a few blocks back. He is a nut job who's having a bad day. He wants to beat your ass. Are you going to shoot him? Are you going to sit there and take a beating? You gotta have options man.

I think you would be surprised how little the average police officer spends in the gym or on the range.

swotivated
02-26-2010, 23:37
Don't take anything MTPD posts too seriously.

I'd have to back Currahee up on that, 100%.

And, thirded. He's trying to find a section of GT where no one knows of him. :supergrin:

:rofl: Roger that.

swotivated
02-26-2010, 23:56
I think you would be surprised how little the average police officer spends in the gym or on the range.

I've got to assume that out of a standard 6 month (1,000+ hr) police academy, there has to be at least 100 hrs of DTs, cuffing, etc. Plus annual or semi annual training on top of that, no?

Trust me, in the military there's never enough time for all the training we want either. But it seems like as a cop hand to hand is much more important than it is for us.

mercop
02-27-2010, 09:38
I was AL doing a class a few weeks back and they are a POST State. If I recall correctly they get 24 hrs of defensive tactics.- George

WayaX
02-27-2010, 12:24
Before worrying about which gun or knife to carry, or dealing with edged weapon attacks, multiple opponents, or worse yet Ninjas, we need to first be able to deal with the round house punch.

The round house, ghetto whopper, hay maker, or whatever you want to call it is the most common first strike in the majority of fights. Some people actually have it in their head that they are willing to take on of these and then will do something. They are kidding themselves.

We get a wide variety of folks in classes. In a very short time we need to desensitize and inoculate them to a certain level of violence. Early on in classes everyone dons headgear and I give them a light shot to the side of the head from a boxing glove to ring their bell a bit. After being shown how to suppress or redirect a powerful round house punch, it is time for the helmet and boxing gloves again. This time the student with the boxing glove is told to do their best to knock the other students head off their shoulders with a round house punch. You may end up with anyone else in the class hitting you, or you hitting them. The first couple of times the person doing the hitting is reluctant to swing full force for fear of hurting their partner. After some motivation they actually swing for the fences. Seldom does anyone take anything more then a glancing blow. The confidence this gives the student in themselves and the technique is awesome to see. From this point we can move on.

The basics done well are what makes you advanced.

We call them redneck specials around here.

Absolutely wonderful advice. I also like that last line; I've seen black belts that couldn't fight for crap. They could throw flashy flying kicks, but when the knuckles met flesh, they were done. Anyway, I digress. Very good post.

mercop
02-27-2010, 17:38
I am a traditional martial artist and believe that there are no superior martial arts, only superior martial artists. And any superior martial artist understands the limitation of his art and will not hesitate to add something to his skill set if it increases his survivability.

Few martial arts stand up to being pressure tested under realistic circumstances. When they are the first thing you realize is that you cannot always play your game and need to be well rounded.- George

WayaX
02-28-2010, 10:25
I am a traditional martial artist and believe that there are no superior martial arts, only superior martial artists. And any superior martial artist understands the limitation of his art and will not hesitate to add something to his skill set if it increases his survivability.

Few martial arts stand up to being pressure tested under realistic circumstances. When they are the first thing you realize is that you cannot always play your game and need to be well rounded.- George

I both agree and disagree with the first statement. While abstractly looking at martial arts and what they teach, I would argue that it is possible to pick out a "superior" martial art. However, once the human element enters, then it does become a case of the superior practitioner (and to a good extent, teacher). In reality, the two cannot be separated, and therefore there is no superior art.

For the most part, I agree with the second statement. A good practitioner needs to be able to apply his entire skill set at any given time to survive an encounter. This may or may not conform to the way the specific martial art would handle that encounter.

fastbolt
02-28-2010, 11:42
"Superior art"?

For what purpose?

Fighting? Pursuit of an art's technical development? Spiritual development?

When I first became interested in the arts in the late 60's I naturally started comparing what was available. Then I started comparing what the various schools offered in the way of what I was looking for ... which at that time was strictly defense-oriented, me being a young man.

I quickly learned that determining what was more 'defense oriented' required an understanding of what situations and circumstances I anticipated encountering.

While I eventually chose a hard-style 'traditional art' (one of the shotokan styles), I eventually followed an eclectic path. I also found a fellow who had decided not to return to Japan with a Japanese kick-boxing team and added that training to my early endeavors.

While my interest in one traditional art and kick boxing remained steady, I also indulged in a bit of dojo hopping back in those days, looking for anything and everything that could be picked up and added. I met a lot of excellent practitioners and teachers of other styles and arts. It was an interesting time to be young and interested in pursuing the arts. Some Chinese arts beckoned a bit later, followed by other interesting disciplines.

Superior Arts? Please ...

Superior artists? Ditto ...

Situational context. Short term & long term goals.

I eventually decided that an intermediate beginner (think shodan/nidan) ought to have developed a decent foundation of basic skills that were constantly being revisited so their layered meanings would eventually be revealed as the practitioner reached for becoming an 'advanced beginner', of a sort (think sandan), where they might begin to grasp the inter-connectedness of the myriad arts and start to recognize the path they wished to follow.

After that they could become serious in their lifelong pursuit ...

Obviously, not everyone desires to follow any particular art to any particular point, or even desires developing 'fighting skills' past any given point. Just depends.

Looking at 'basics' after 5 years is one thing ... Looking at them after 20 years is revealing ... Looking at them after close to 40 years can be amazing and humbling.

WayaX
02-28-2010, 11:56
"Superior art"?

For what purpose?

Fighting? Pursuit of an art's technical development? Spiritual development?


There are no pure styles of karate; purity comes when pure knuckles meet pure flesh, no matter who delivers or receives.

I'm a firm believer that the ultimate goal of the martial arts is inherently...martial. I understand that some people get into the arts for different reasons; however if the martial art (or artists) veer from the martial path, is it a really a martial art? Or is it dancing, or even meditation? So whenever I speak of a martial art, I don't look at styles for how good they are in tournaments (TKD, Gracie BJJ), or how acrobatic and entertaining their movements are (some forms of kung fu). What I look for are good principles of basic motion, realistic movement and thought, and an effective way to teach those.

Anyway, I think we've really pulled this thread off course.

Deaf Smith
02-28-2010, 18:01
Looking at 'basics' after 5 years is one thing ... Looking at them after 20 years is revealing ... Looking at them after close to 40 years can be amazing and humbling.

Cool Fastbolt.

I've been in TKD for over 30 years (my base), and trained in Shotokan, Isshinryu, Soo Bahk Do, and now Krav Maga. At heart I’m a Jeet Kune Do man as I pick what is useful, discard what is useless (for me.)

I pick what I like that fit's my physical abilities not only in technique but in training methods. Many a different teacher has shown me most teachers do not teach the same way and all have some good ways to impart skills. Looking at ways to teach over the years has been humbling to. What I thought were real good methods when I first started now seem kind of quaint.

What is more, to me this is my avocation. Some like golf, some tennis, I love to work out and learn new method. If I find one that is better for the application than what I know, I make it my own.

As for the most deadly art? Well that's an amusing thought, right?

Deaf