Setting up a defensive rifle [Archive] - Glock Talk

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K. Foster
02-17-2010, 16:00
This is my opinion on how an AR type rifle should be set up for defensive purposes. You may have a different opinion, and that doesn’t make either of us wrong.
THE BASIC GUN: I recommend a 16 inch barreled flat top with a 5.56 chamber, chrome lined barrel and a flash hider, from a quality manufacturer.
BUTT STOCK: I like collapsible stocks because I can get the same stock fit whether I’m in a T shirt or winter clothes and body armor. Also, I like my stocks fairly short. Typically, the second or third hole. Stocks like the Vltor and LMT sopmod provide an improved cheek weld that may be beneficial for precision accuracy. However, I find the generic 6 position M4 stock to be perfectly sufficient.
SIGHTS: The old days of “irons only” for combat are gone. The military issues Aimpoint, Eotech and the ACOG with good success. Most confrontations happen in reduced light and dot sights make low light shooting much easier. I’ve been pleased with both Aimpoint and Eotech. They are similar but different and dependant on your needs, I would recommend either. Every defensive rifle should have back up sights. I prefer a fixed front sight and an optic mount that gives me a Lower 1/3 co-witness.
LIGHTS: I consider a light to be a requirement for a defensive rifle. You can spend a lot more on fancy tactical lights but they won’t be noticeably better, from an application stand point, than a Surefire G2 or G3 LED. If most of your application requirement will be indoors, the G2 is enough. If you intend to use the rifle outside much, go with the G3. A standard set of cheap 1" scope rings will mount these lights to a rail. If you want an ‘offset’ mount, Viking Tactics has a good one. I dislike pressure pads (tape switches), they aren’t reliable and the cords are always in the way.
SLINGS: I also consider a sling to be a requirement for a defensive rifle.
I’ve found Three Point slings to be overly complicated and tend to bind up any equipment you have on your chest. They can get in the way during magazine changes and malfunction clearance.
The Two Point, Vickers’ style is a very workable concept, the only down side is, like the Three Point, it can get in the way during magazine changes.
Single Points are very good for manipulating the gun. You can also quickly move the weapon to the off side shoulder, should the need arise. If you have to transition to a pistol, while moving to cover or have to drag a team member or family member to cover, it can beat the crap out of your knees.
HAND GUARDS: I don’t like a lot of weight on the front of my rifle so, any rail system I use has to be light. If you aren’t going to use PEQ lasers, vertical fore grips or other things, you probably don’t need one. Free Floats are nice but not needed on a defensive carbine. If the only thing you are mounting is a light, there is nothing wrong with a plastic hand guard and a bolt on accessory rail. You can mount a light on the front sight tower, as well.
MAGAZINES: Magazines are a wear item and should be discarded, or at least stripped for parts, when they become worn. USGI mags are fine but I recommend replacing the follower with MagPul’s self leveling follower. P Mags have been problem free for me. They are the only plastic magazine I recommend. HK mags are heavy, expensive and they rust.
VERTICAL FORE GRIPS: I’ve never been able to warm up to these. However, they do make manipulating a light easier. I have a Tango Down stubby grip that I use more as a hand stop then a hand grip.

jrs93accord
02-17-2010, 16:56
Your idea of an AR setup sounds like a good one. One thing, I would not consider it as a "Defensive" setup. An AR is an all-purpose weapon. In most cases, it is probably used more as an offensive weapon.

Kegel
02-17-2010, 18:40
Your idea of an AR setup sounds like a good one. One thing, I would not consider it as a "Defensive" setup. An AR is an all-purpose weapon. In most cases, it is probably used more as an offensive weapon.


Nah. Its a perfectly good defensive weapon. Everyone should have one loaded next to the bedstand (forget the glock). A 5.56 steel core round is the best, especially for firing in confined spaces with the kids in the next room. Everyone knows that. :whistling:

kgain673
02-17-2010, 20:06
Nah. Its a perfectly good defensive weapon. Everyone should have one loaded next to the bedstand (forget the glock). A 5.56 steel core round is the best, especially for firing in confined spaces with the kids in the next room. Everyone knows that. :whistling:

:rofl: I thought you were serious at first.

djegators
02-17-2010, 20:07
What exactly are you planning on defending?

lawman800
02-18-2010, 02:46
Zombie outbreak.

NeverMore1701
02-18-2010, 05:59
What exactly are you planning on defending?

One's self, family, and belongings?

K. Foster
02-18-2010, 06:24
One's self, family, and belongings?

Exactly. Thank you.

JASV.17
02-18-2010, 06:31
Nah. Its a perfectly good defensive weapon. Everyone should have one loaded next to the bedstand (forget the glock). A 5.56 steel core round is the best, especially for firing in confined spaces with the kids in the next room. Everyone knows that. :whistling:



http://www.downrange.tv/bestdefense/wall-penetration.htm

NeverMore1701
02-18-2010, 06:50
http://www.downrange.tv/bestdefense/wall-penetration.htm

Don't bother. He's either a troll, a moron, or most likely a combination of the two.

JASV.17
02-18-2010, 07:02
Don't bother. He's either a troll, a moron, or most likely a combination of the two.

A "trollron".

Yeah, I know. But I came across that sometime ago and have been saving it for this very moment.

mvician
02-18-2010, 11:05
once again a good post gets turned into a 3 ring circus.........

kabob983
02-18-2010, 11:37
+1 to the hand guards. People are often too quick to run out and buy the newest baddest quad rail and 10 things to hang off of it, most of which they'll never use. For distance shooting FF is nice but for the average shooter (like me) who's not doing precision shooting at distance but wants a defensive weapon the stock handguards are perfect. If I get a light I'll probably grab one of the CAA Bayonet Lug adapters.

EZFLY80
02-18-2010, 17:51
http://www.downrange.tv/bestdefense/wall-penetration.htm

Good video. My department actually tested our .40 cal Gold Dots against our issued 5.56 and found that the .40 actually overpenetratd while the 5.56 broke apart in the walls due to its speed. Its a common misconception so this video does a good explanation.

USMC03
02-20-2010, 04:56
Reposted info from a simular post:



Carbine and Optics. Don't buy cheap, you will regret it in the long run.

Spend money on training and after getting some training add accessories to your gun as you find a need for each accessory.

Many guys start off with a $3,500 carbine and end up removing or changing approximatley $2,000+ worth of stuff because it didn't work for them or they purchased "cool guy" accessories (ie. like a 4x ACOG for a home defense gun)

A good starting point is a quality carbine, quality mags and ammo, a quality red dot optic, a small quality weapon light, and a tactical sling.



Some articles that you may find useful:


http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/bcm-complete-ar15-upper-and-lower-receivers/icon-bcm-upper-lower.jpg
03designgroup | BCM Complete AR15 Upper and Lower Receivers (http://www.03designgroup.com/reviews/bcm-complete-ar15-upper-and-lower-receivers)


This info also applies to most AR shooters, even though it was directed toward law enforcement when I wrote it:
http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/midlengths-for-leo/icon-midlengths-for-leo.jpg
03designgroup | Advantages of Mid-Length Carbines for Law Enforcement Officers (http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/midlengths-for-leo)


http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/carbine-vs-midlength/icon-carbine-vs-midlength.jpg
03designgroup | Carbine vs. Mid-Length Gas System on a 16" Barrel (http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/carbine-vs-mid-length-gas-system)


http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/tactical-slings-for-the-carbine/icon-tactical-slings.jpg
03designgroup | Tactical Slings For The Carbine (http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/tactical-slings-for-the-carbine)


http://03designgroup.com/photo/ar15-buttstock-considerations/icon-ar15-buttstock-considerations.jpg
03designgroup | AR15 Buttstock Considerations (http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/ar15-buttstock-considerations)




Hope this helps

USMC03
02-20-2010, 04:57
double tap

Popsmoke
02-22-2010, 16:13
The 5.56 is sufficient for the Zombies. Its the robots that need a heavier caliber, you know, to get through all that metal. I suggest a M1A or an AR-10 in .308

Popsmoke

lawman800
02-22-2010, 17:08
One good shot to the cranium is enough for a zombie. Just take out the brain.

Robots are a tougher deal. Most have the CPU well encased behind enough metal to block most small arms fire. You would really need the 50BMG with the hardened anti-armor rounds.

Popsmoke
02-22-2010, 17:44
The problem with the zombies is that they tend to bunch up. So you need a faster manuvering 5.56 with a good sidearm as a backup. Sometimes a good scattergun line the Benelli M4 or a 1170 will do, I have both.
The robots, well they tend to wander around without much purpose, (except for those laser beams), so a good sniper setup to take out the CPU is a fine way to go. Heaver calibers and higher accuracy are called for. I use an accurized M700 with a Nightforce 4.5-24.
I like to keep my AR's suppressed, because all close quarter firing can be tough on the ears. I recommend the following - a Sabre 11.5" with a AAC M4. This supressor can be fitted on to any of your other AR's with with adapter. So when the zombies get close to your house you can pick them off easily.
I also keep a 9mm subbie with a 5" barrel and a SWR Trident. This is extremely good for close in work, better than my SIG P229's or a G19, because with an Aimpoint I can deliver deadly accurate fire to 50 yds, Zombies hate this.

To keep the robots at bay, I use a M700 as I mentioned. However a Springfield Armory SOCOM 16 is a nice 308 battle rifle that will drop most robots out to about 400 yds.

Scatter guns, are always handy - and should always be bedside. Nothing can rattle a zombie brain like some buckshot being chucked into a pump action or the bolt of a outloader. The zombies usually jump out the windows with they hear that.

One piece of advice, "fear the man who has one gun".

Popsmoke

kabob983
02-22-2010, 18:00
Reposted info from a simular post:



Carbine and Optics. Don't buy cheap, you will regret it in the long run.

Spend money on training and after getting some training add accessories to your gun as you find a need for each accessory.

Many guys start off with a $3,500 carbine and end up removing or changing approximatley $2,000+ worth of stuff because it didn't work for them or they purchased "cool guy" accessories (ie. like a 4x ACOG for a home defense gun)

A good starting point is a quality carbine, quality mags and ammo, a quality red dot optic, a small quality weapon light, and a tactical sling.



Some articles that you may find useful:


http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/bcm-complete-ar15-upper-and-lower-receivers/icon-bcm-upper-lower.jpg
03designgroup | BCM Complete AR15 Upper and Lower Receivers (http://www.03designgroup.com/reviews/bcm-complete-ar15-upper-and-lower-receivers)


This info also applies to most AR shooters, even though it was directed toward law enforcement when I wrote it:
http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/midlengths-for-leo/icon-midlengths-for-leo.jpg
03designgroup | Advantages of Mid-Length Carbines for Law Enforcement Officers (http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/midlengths-for-leo)


http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/carbine-vs-midlength/icon-carbine-vs-midlength.jpg
03designgroup | Carbine vs. Mid-Length Gas System on a 16" Barrel (http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/carbine-vs-mid-length-gas-system)


http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/tactical-slings-for-the-carbine/icon-tactical-slings.jpg
03designgroup | Tactical Slings For The Carbine (http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/tactical-slings-for-the-carbine)


http://03designgroup.com/photo/ar15-buttstock-considerations/icon-ar15-buttstock-considerations.jpg
03designgroup | AR15 Buttstock Considerations (http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/ar15-buttstock-considerations)




Hope this helps

Some good info, but what do you think about a potential 14.5" middy (which BCM will soon offer)?

lawman800
02-22-2010, 20:56
The problem with the zombies is that they tend to bunch up. So you need a faster manuvering 5.56 with a good sidearm as a backup. Sometimes a good scattergun line the Benelli M4 or a 1170 will do, I have both.

Zombies gather in groups when they hear noises that attract them. It's not a grouping behavior per se, but rather that the individual zombie reacts to the same stimulus and moves toward it, so it is natural that they will bunch up when the same stimulus reaches a bunch of zombies at the same time. When you observe a group of zombies, absent any stimulus, they will just mill about, bumping into each other, and eventually scatter.

Shotguns can blow a head off a zombie, but you need to close and if you are faced with a lot of zombies, the limited capacity, slow reloadability, and heavier weight of a shotgun can really be more of a hindrance and put you in danger.

The robots, well they tend to wander around without much purpose, (except for those laser beams), so a good sniper setup to take out the CPU is a fine way to go. Heaver calibers and higher accuracy are called for. I use an accurized M700 with a Nightforce 4.5-24.

Robots without specific programming can wander around, but if programmed with a mission, like the Terminator, e.g. T101, T1000, or TX, they will be hard to pick out as such and a sniper rifle will be of little use against the T1000 and TX. Even a T101 can withstand quite a bit of 7.62Nato fire.

I like to keep my AR's suppressed, because all close quarter firing can be tough on the ears. I recommend the following - a Sabre 11.5" with a AAC M4. This supressor can be fitted on to any of your other AR's with with adapter. So when the zombies get close to your house you can pick them off easily. I also keep a 9mm subbie with a 5" barrel and a SWR Trident. This is extremely good for close in work, better than my SIG P229's or a G19, because with an Aimpoint I can deliver deadly accurate fire to 50 yds.

Suppressors are a great idea with zombies so they don't hear the gunshot and congregate on your location. Robots made after the clone wars have very sensitive acoustic receivers and can register gunshots from miles away and pinpoint the caliber and your exact location.

Zombies hate this.

Zombies have no emotions. They cannot hate, love, distrust, etc. They are dead bodies animated by Solanum with only the desire to eat flesh.

To keep the robots at bay, I use a M700 as I mentioned. However a Springfield Armory SOCOM 16 is a nice 308 battle rifle that will drop most robots out to about 400 yds.

At 400 yards, a 7.62Nato round will not carry enough energy to penetrate most exoskeletons of post-Clone war robots.

Scatter guns, are always handy - and should always be bedside. Nothing can rattle a zombie brain like some buckshot being chucked into a pump action or the bolt of a outloader. The zombies usually jump out the windows with they hear that.

Zombies do not possess the locomotive ability to jump. They usually shamble along and sometimes crawl if they have already decomposed or suffered damage to their legs. You are thinking of the "infected humans" seen in "28 Days Later" or "I am Legend". Those are not zombies per se, they are still humans who have been infected with a virus that does not kill them, but rather, instilled a hunger or rage in them to feed and kill humans. They are still living and breathing, which is the key difference between them and true zombies, who do not need air as they are dead.

One piece of advice, "fear the man who has one gun".

But fear the man with lots of guns and lots of ammo too!

Popsmoke
02-23-2010, 07:16
You make some good points, for close in work with Zombies either a carbine length AR or a shotgun will do - agreed that you need a good secondary weapon, but you should always carry a backup. Shotguns are inherently slower, but have a greater likely hood of 1 shot drops.

As for Robots, the 2nd generation Terminator was made from a mimetic polyalloy - not able to morph into complex machines but could make one helluva club, blade, or checkerboard floor.
For Crists sake - I've personally seen one take a 40mm grenade to the head and recover.
But this was a very unusual robot from the future - and was a prototype not likely to appear again. Not unless John Connor has something else up his sleeve.
I tend to train and equip for 1st generation T1000, Cylon type robots and the garden variety 1st generation Robbies. These can be taken with heavier calibers. But if you let them get inside your perimeter, you will definitely need to deploy most of your arms room.

As for this statement - I totally disagree:
They are still living and breathing, which is the key difference between them and true zombies, who do not need air as they are dead.

All zombies need air to breath - think about it, if they didn't then they could attack from underwater or from space - that would be totally ridiculous, as they cannot manage scuba gear or a spaceship.
I think you were lumping them in the same category as skeletons like from Pirates of Caribbean -where for these edged or clubbed weapons were the most effective - but those are beyond the scope of this discussion.

Bilbo Bagins
02-23-2010, 08:36
LIGHTS: I consider a light to be a requirement for a defensive rifle. You can spend a lot more on fancy tactical lights but they won’t be noticeably better, from an application stand point, than a Surefire G2 or G3 LED. If most of your application requirement will be indoors, the G2 is enough. If you intend to use the rifle outside much, go with the G3. A standard set of cheap 1" scope rings will mount these lights to a rail. If you want an ‘offset’ mount, Viking Tactics has a good one. I dislike pressure pads (tape switches), they aren’t reliable and the cords are always in the way.


If I was going to put a light on my AR, it would not be using pathetic 80lums Surefire G3 LED. Heck the Streamlight TLR3 that I have for my Glock 19 throws 90lums, is cheaper, and you don't need a flashlight adapter, just a rail. For outdoor use, you going to need something closer to 200lums, because 80 to 90 lums will only light up out to 25 yards, and you want that "Blinding" light at close range. Surefire is behind the times, try something made Nitecore, Fenix, Olight, or 4Seven.

Also, ARs are good for zombies, but if its robots, I would go with an AK or and AR-10.

djegators
02-23-2010, 08:41
One's self, family, and belongings?

Apparently, no, as this thread turned into a zombie thread. :faint:

lawman800
02-23-2010, 09:54
You make some good points, for close in work with Zombies either a carbine length AR or a shotgun will do - agreed that you need a good secondary weapon, but you should always carry a backup. Shotguns are inherently slower, but have a greater likely hood of 1 shot drops.

Agreed. However, if I can avoid engagement, I would rather sneak away in the other direction. Fire off 1 shot and all the zombies in the vicinity will congregate on your location. Not worth it if you can avoid it. Survival is the key, not winning.

As for Robots, the 2nd generation Terminator was made from a mimetic polyalloy - not able to morph into complex machines but could make one helluva club, blade, or checkerboard floor.
For Crists sake - I've personally seen one take a 40mm grenade to the head and recover.
But this was a very unusual robot from the future - and was a prototype not likely to appear again. Not unless John Connor has something else up his sleeve.
I tend to train and equip for 1st generation T1000, Cylon type robots and the garden variety 1st generation Robbies. These can be taken with heavier calibers. But if you let them get inside your perimeter, you will definitely need to deploy most of your arms room.

Very true. I see you have studied your "Resistance" handbook.

As for this statement - I totally disagree:
They are still living and breathing, which is the key difference between them and true zombies, who do not need air as they are dead.

All zombies need air to breath - think about it, if they didn't then they could attack from underwater or from space - that would be totally ridiculous, as they cannot manage scuba gear or a spaceship.

Nope. Sorry, buddy. In every single George Romero movie, including Land of the Dead, you see that the zombies are dead, as some shamble with half their entrails hanging out, no blood, half their torso gone, etc. You also see the whole group going underwater into the lake and then reemerging on the other side to attack the last refuge of the living. None of them swam, they just traversed the bottom of the lake.

There are recorded attacks of zombies that froze in the higher altitudes and then thawed in the spring, ready to attack again. I implore you to read "The Zombie Survival Guide" because it contains valuable information. I will read up on John Connor's Resistance and the robots on my end.

As for space, I can't address that but theoretically, a zombie will still be frozen in space first and foremost just as anything in that harsh environment and then when the sunlight hits, the radiation will cook the tissue and perhaps it will be fried and disintegrated. That might kill it. However, on a spaceship or a surface station where the environment is protected, even if the power shut off and the air supply is gone, any zombies there can still attack as they don't need air.

I think you were lumping them in the same category as skeletons like from Pirates of Caribbean -where for these edged or clubbed weapons were the most effective - but those are beyond the scope of this discussion.

Skeletons need blunt striking weapons. Edged weapons do little but chip bones unless you carry enough momentum to break the bones, which is very unlikely except for the Claymore sword or a big battleaxe.

HAIL CAESAR
02-23-2010, 10:11
Don't bother. He's either a troll, a moron, or most likely a combination of the two.

I vote both, with a smattering of no experience with anything he talks about.

K. Foster
02-24-2010, 20:19
If I was going to put a light on my AR, it would not be using pathetic 80lums G3 LED.

Streamlight and Surefire pistol lights are another good light option.
Regarding the need for 200 lumens, the mission dictates the gear. I have no trouble identifying threats or non-threats out to 35 yards with a G2 led.
On “blinding light” You want a light that is sufficiently bright enough to fully illuminate your environment but from actual use, I can say that catch phrases like ‘submitting your opponent with light’ or building a wall of light’ are more marketing hype than reality.

triggerjerk
02-24-2010, 21:20
Here's mine.
http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/6963/img1914c.jpg
Need to zero the laser (crimson trace mvf-51) and the new low profile buis.
Just wish I had a VLTOR to store batteries in . . .

Bilbo Bagins
02-25-2010, 08:13
Streamlight and Surefire pistol lights are another good light option.
Regarding the need for 200 lumens, the mission dictates the gear. I have no trouble identifying threats or non-threats out to 35 yards with a G2 led.
On “blinding light” You want a light that is sufficiently bright enough to fully illuminate your environment but from actual use, I can say that catch phrases like ‘submitting your opponent with light’ or building a wall of light’ are more marketing hype than reality.

Surefire is not a good option, its Mall ninja tactical hype. Why do I want to spend almost $100 for a G3 that has the same throw as a 3 D Cell maglight with an incandecent bulb, when I can get something that throws 150lums or more for $60 to $80. The only lights that Surefire makes that put out over 150lum will run you over $150, and they are not better quality to other companies.

I was in Law enforcement before high intensity LED flashlight really hit the scene. Trust me whether your searching around an unlit house for an armed suspect, or trying to shoot something 25 to 50 yards away, the difference between 80lums and 200 lums is literally the difference between night and day.

Unlike the craptacular G3, Most lights today can have multiple settings for low, medium and high output, so if you need to go in with a dim setting, then turn it up to high when you need max light.

No "mission" requires a dim light with one setting. Its like money and sex, more is always better :supergrin:

I notice my previous comment mentioned Streamlight was behind the times, I meant to say Surefire. I got the two mixed up and will edit.

TimP
02-25-2010, 08:37
Some good info, but what do you think about a potential 14.5" middy (which BCM will soon offer)?

I think it will run just as good as every other BCM product. :)

I'm really wanting another 16-18 gun

K. Foster
02-25-2010, 08:56
Surefire is not a good option, its Mall ninja tactical hype.

You are certainly welcome to your opinion.

HAIL CAESAR
02-25-2010, 11:02
Surefire is not a good option, its Mall ninja tactical hype. The only lights that Surefire makes that put out over 150lum will run you over $150, and they are not better quality to other companies.

I was in Law enforcement before high intensity LED flashlight really hit the scene.



I duct taped the old metal lights to a the forearm of a 30-30. So what.

Surefire's cost so much because they test and engineer the bedickens out of their gear before putting it in the hands of a Soldier or 5-0.

Some of the companies are cheaper because they are China companies that just blatantly rip off Surefire with cheap components.

And the rest are companies that have no innovation and no testing.

I use my same rifle for work as I do coyote hunting. I use Surefires at work when my life depends on it ( and sometimes a Streamlight) but I leave the cheap China lights for hunting and training.

Hedo1
02-25-2010, 13:16
K. Foster,

You description is almost identical to my AR Carbine set up. I've got an Eotech 512 and a free floated barrel. That's about my only changes. My tow point sling is mounted to the back of the stock and I have it attached with Paracord just because I like it that way.

Good set up you described.

K. Foster
02-25-2010, 13:26
Thanks Hedo1.

lawman800
02-26-2010, 01:59
You are certainly welcome to your opinion.

Is Surefire expensive? Yeah, you can get Pelican or Streamlight stuff for maybe a little cheaper, but when it comes down to police strength duty lights, how much is $10 or $20 worth?

Surefire tests everything to the death and gives you that lifetime warranty. I have a 6PD LED and while it's not the brightest or cheapest light I have, it is a great light and I feel confident carrying it to do its job, i.e. light.

GreyEclipse
02-26-2010, 02:22
I like holographic sights like Eotech but I heard that they have low battery life, they get turned on easily by bumping them accidently and that they don't perform as well in cold weather. I live in Wyoming, we don't have cold weather, we have freezing weather. haha, what holographic sight would you recommend?

lawman800
02-26-2010, 02:35
Depends on what your priorities are:

EOTechs are great Holographic sights that mostly use common AA or CR123 batteries which may not last a long time but the batteries are common (not counting the N model lights). Most EOTechs are in the $400-480 range. They are big and relatively heavy but you don't need a separate mount since they are set up to co-witness on standard front AR sights.

Aimpoints use CR2032 batteries which can be expensive and harder to find unless you have 24 hour access to a Radio Shack or other electronics store. The battery life is supposed to be much higher to the order the 10x EOTech if you believe the manufacturer's specs. Aimpoints can cost $550 and up for the T-1 Microdot series. Some also necessitate a separate mount purchase as they are relatively small sights so you need to get a riser or hi-mount to clear your AR front sight if you don't have a folding one. Aimpoint is supposed to have unrivaled customer support.

Trijicon is self-luminous and never needs batteries. Instead, it uses tritium to illuminate the reticle at night and fiber optics to gather light to light up the reticle during the day. It's a system that has worked pretty well. There's also a tri-power model that adds a battery backup power system to be redundant with the other two light sources in case something fails and you want to have that option to go to battery power. Trijicons start at $450 for the RX series to $2,000 for the TA series.

I have both an EOTech 517 and a Trijicon Reflex RX06-14. No Aimpoint yet. I like having the ease of finding AA batteries to power my EOTech and the Trijicon is maintenance free. What else can I ask from my sights in the harsh winters of Los Angeles?

GreyEclipse
02-26-2010, 02:47
Sounds like I'm going to have to try the EoTech and Trijicon out then. :tongueout:
The only thing I'm worried about is buying an EoTech and have it crap out on me because it's a little chilly. It stays under 30 degrees here.
The Trijicon that you're talking about is a simple red by definition, correct?

lawman800
02-26-2010, 07:51
Sounds like I'm going to have to try the EoTech and Trijicon out then. :tongueout:
The only thing I'm worried about is buying an EoTech and have it crap out on me because it's a little chilly. It stays under 30 degrees here.
The Trijicon that you're talking about is a simple red by definition, correct?

I would say Trijicon to be safe in all conditions for you. The not needing a battery part is what got me. That's just awesome. I've only had my EOTech since December so I can't tell ya about long term issues but if our soldiers and SWAT use it... I got no complaints.

What do you mean simple red by definition? I have no idea... mine has the yellow triangle 12.9MOA reticle on a flat top hi-mount.

Darkangel1846
02-26-2010, 10:20
Well just remember batteries go dead...so train with Iron sights....optics are a luxury.
Also remember flashlights are great it helps you see someone else, but it also gives your position away(they work both ways), night vision works well they will have it also. Train with you striped basic model and become proficient with iron sights, after that add all you want.

kabob983
02-26-2010, 10:32
Aimpoints use CR2032 batteries which can be expensive and harder to find unless you have 24 hour access to a Radio Shack or other electronics store. The battery life is supposed to be much higher to the order the 10x EOTech if you believe the manufacturer's specs. Aimpoints can cost $550 and up for the T-1 Microdot series. Some also necessitate a separate mount purchase as they are relatively small sights so you need to get a riser or hi-mount to clear your AR front sight if you don't have a folding one. Aimpoint is supposed to have unrivaled customer support.

True, but with the Aimpoint + LaRue mount + Aimpoint extended cap you've got 3 batteries, on a Comp M3 that's ~150,000 hours of continuous use. If you can't find a spare moment to pick up an extra battery or two...well...oh well. I don't care if you have a 48 pack of AA's at hand, you can't touch the battery life of an Aimpoint.

Also, CompM4/M4s both use AA's. My Aimpoint has been absolutely bulletproof thus far though, I can't complain. I mean come on, next time you go deep sea diving with your AR and your EOTech dies on you, you'll WISH you had an Aimpoint! :tongueout:

I really like my CompML2 but I am tempted to pick up an EOTech 516 or 517, I do like the reticle.

Aimpoint CS is very good, I've never had anything major at all but the few times I have contacted them they've been extremely quick to respond and are extremely knowledgable/helpful.

K. Foster
02-26-2010, 13:54
I like holographic sights like Eotech but I heard that they have low battery life, they get turned on easily by bumping them accidently and that they don't perform as well in cold weather. I live in Wyoming, we don't have cold weather, we have freezing weather. haha, what holographic sight would you recommend?

Do not get the N cell version. They are more susceptible to failures, battery life sucks and they are susceptible to draining power even when off. Any of the models that use AA batteries or the new XPS that uses a 123A battery would be my choice. Eotech only recommends Energizer Lithium batteries. The Lithium batteries are lighter than alkaline batteries. IMHO this small weight reduction stops the issue of recoil causing the batteries to come lose or loose touch with the power contacts, thus making the sight shut off during firing that some people complain about. In fact, I believe that a lot of the complaints that are passed around about Eotechs come from not using the recommended battery.
If long battery life is a priority for you, get an Aimpoint.
As far as the cold in Wyoming? I live in the mid-west so I can’t help you there, sorry.

GreyEclipse
02-26-2010, 16:04
I would say Trijicon to be safe in all conditions for you. The not needing a battery part is what got me. That's just awesome. I've only had my EOTech since December so I can't tell ya about long term issues but if our soldiers and SWAT use it... I got no complaints.

What do you mean simple red by definition? I have no idea... mine has the yellow triangle 12.9MOA reticle on a flat top hi-mount.

Unlike traditional red dot sights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_dot_sights), holographic weapon sights utilize holography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holography) to achieve an effectively infinite parallax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallax) free distance. Most standard red dot sights use a simpler semi-reflective surface which reflects a projected dot of light while allowing the user to see through the sight. When the eye is not aligned with the center of the standard reflex sight, a certain amount of parallax error can be introduced at longer ranges.<sup id="cite_ref-2" class="reference">[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EOTech#cite_note-2)</sup> The method of holographic projection used by EOTech allows the parallax error to be constant at any range, and never more than the radius of the sight window.
One requirement of holographic projection is a laser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_diode). Lasers use more power than a LED (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED) of an equivalent brightness, reducing the amount of time a holographic sight can run on a single set of batteries. Another disadvantage to the laser-based sight is that lasers are more sensitive to temperature. To prevent loss of accuracy, thermal changes must be compensated for. A diffraction grating is used in the holographic sight; however, the operating temperature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_temperature) range is typically less than that of a simpler optical reflex sight.

GreyEclipse
02-26-2010, 16:07
Well just remember batteries go dead...so train with Iron sights....optics are a luxury.
Also remember flashlights are great it helps you see someone else, but it also gives your position away(they work both ways), night vision works well they will have it also. Train with you striped basic model and become proficient with iron sights, after that add all you want.

I agree.

"Do not get the N cell version. They are more susceptible to failures, battery life sucks and they are susceptible to draining power even when off. Any of the models that use AA batteries or the new XPS that uses a 123A battery would be my choice. Eotech only recommends Energizer Lithium batteries. The Lithium batteries are lighter than alkaline batteries. IMHO this small weight reduction stops the issue of recoil causing the batteries to come lose or loose touch with the power contacts, thus making the sight shut off during firing that some people complain about. In fact, I believe that a lot of the complaints that are passed around about Eotechs come from not using the recommended battery.
If long battery life is a priority for you, get an Aimpoint.
As far as the cold in Wyoming? I live in the mid-west so I can’t help you there, sorry."

I'll go with an AIMPOINT then. But I won't be buying it for a while.

lawman800
02-26-2010, 16:09
If batteries are an issue, get the trijicon and be done with it. My Trijicon Reflex will never run out, even in total darkness thanks to the tritium.

I love Aimpoint, but couldn't pass up the $50 rebate on my Eotech 517.

GreyEclipse
02-26-2010, 16:29
Screw it, I'll stick with irons for a while, haha.

djegators
02-26-2010, 16:40
Make sure you add on all the goodies....


http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k73/JohnWagnerIII/mallninja.jpg

ronin.45
02-26-2010, 20:48
You have a pretty good setup listed. I think anyone would be well served with your picks.

lawman800
02-26-2010, 21:22
Unlike traditional red dot sights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_dot_sights), holographic weapon sights utilize holography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holography) to achieve an effectively infinite parallax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallax) free distance. Most standard red dot sights use a simpler semi-reflective surface which reflects a projected dot of light while allowing the user to see through the sight. When the eye is not aligned with the center of the standard reflex sight, a certain amount of parallax error can be introduced at longer ranges.<sup id="cite_ref-2" class="reference">[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EOTech#cite_note-2)</sup> The method of holographic projection used by EOTech allows the parallax error to be constant at any range, and never more than the radius of the sight window.
One requirement of holographic projection is a laser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_diode). Lasers use more power than a LED (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED) of an equivalent brightness, reducing the amount of time a holographic sight can run on a single set of batteries. Another disadvantage to the laser-based sight is that lasers are more sensitive to temperature. To prevent loss of accuracy, thermal changes must be compensated for. A diffraction grating is used in the holographic sight; however, the operating temperature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_temperature) range is typically less than that of a simpler optical reflex sight.

Alright... so the EOTech is a true holographic, while the Aimpoint is a red dot and the Trijicon is a Reflex, which is also a red dot?

volsbear
02-27-2010, 06:14
If batteries are an issue, get the trijicon and be done with it. My Trijicon Reflex will never run out, even in total darkness thanks to the tritium.

I love Aimpoint, but couldn't pass up the $50 rebate on my Eotech 517.

I dunno... my EoTech is 2 years ago and the two AA batteries that came in the EoTech box are still working. Granted, I don't use it every day, but who does???

The best advice so far about optics is to train without them. I had 2,000 or so rounds through my AR-15 before I even turned the EoTech on the first time. And even then I felt like I had rushed it.

Fortunately, at least for me, an AR-15 seems naturally accurate. I'm not a particularly experienced rifle shooter and I've had no problem hitting clay pigeons on the side of a berm at 125 yards. God only knows how accurate that rifle is capable of being if I ever learn to fire it to its potential.

lawman800
02-27-2010, 11:07
I had 2,000 or so rounds through my AR-15 before I even turned on the EoTech the first time. And even then I felt like I had rushed it.

Ummm... you still talking rifles and optics... or something else?:whistling:

volsbear
02-27-2010, 12:36
Ummm... you still talking rifles and optics... or something else?:whistling:

Don't tease me.

lawman800
02-27-2010, 12:40
I've been told that a lot.

HAIL CAESAR
02-27-2010, 13:13
I dunno... my EoTech is 2 years ago and the two AA batteries that came in the EoTech box are still working. Granted, I don't use it every day, but who does???



Soldiers and Cops use them everyday. But I agree training is key.

volsbear
02-27-2010, 13:30
Very few cops use their patrol rifle on a DAILY basis. That's pretty rare.

lawman800
02-27-2010, 18:26
Very few cops use their patrol rifle on a DAILY basis. That's pretty rare.

Probation and parole officers use them even less... teehee!:whistling:

HAIL CAESAR
02-27-2010, 20:17
It is not so much as "uses" it as it is I depend on it. I depend on it whether I "use" it or not. If it is got to always work when I pick it up...no excuses ever.

ElectricZombie
02-27-2010, 22:27
I have owned a lot of flashlights, and the only ones that have actually held up over the years have been Surefires and my Streamlight TRL2s. There are many manufacturers who make a brighter light than Surefire, but I haven't found any better engineered.

K. Foster
02-28-2010, 15:31
it is not so much as "uses" it as it is i depend on it. I depend on it whether i "use" it or not. If it is got to always work when i pick it up...no excuses ever.
bingo!

volsbear
02-28-2010, 21:01
Probation and parole officers use them even less... teehee!:whistling:

Tragic, but true.

Alaskapopo
03-04-2010, 23:20
Very few cops use their patrol rifle on a DAILY basis. That's pretty rare.

Depends on your defination of use. Mine is carried every work day. Is that use. I end up deploying it usually every 3 to 4 months sometimes not for 6 to 8 months. (gun calls) Never had to fire it in the line of duty thankfully.

Most recent scary call I had I deployed my shotgun loaded with slugs. (felony vehicle stop following a long pursuit, breneke slugs do better on cars than 5.56 ammo)
Pat

HAIL CAESAR
03-04-2010, 23:28
Depends on your defination of use. Mine is carried every work day. Is that use. (breneke slugs do better on cars than 5.56 ammo)
Pat

That is my thoughts, and slugs definitely ventilate cars.:supergrin: