Anybody Know This Guy? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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23 David
02-27-2010, 00:59
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_LTexIQFAQ
He sounds like he is from NYC.

Gallium
02-27-2010, 05:39
I believe that is Matthew Tempkin, a former NYC court officer.

I've been wrong before, so don't swear me in on it.


'Drew

Sam Spade
02-27-2010, 08:12
Well, yeah, what with the big green "Featuring Matthew Temkin" on the screen. Don't worry Drew, we'll make a dick out of you yet. ("Detective", for you gutterminded readers.)



Yes, he worked in the NY Courts. I know him a bit, attended one of his seminars through IALEFI, yada yada.

He used to post here (as in T&T) until the populace ran him out. You may still be able to find his old stuff, dunno.

Anything specific you're wondering about?

Gallium
02-27-2010, 08:45
Well, yeah, what with the big green "Featuring Matthew Temkin" on the screen. Don't worry Drew, we'll make a dick out of you yet. ("Detective", for you gutterminded readers.)


...


:rofl:

You'll have to brain-cleanse law school outta me 1st! (never been there, except as a babysitter :whistling:).

I said "it appears" because without positive fingerprinting or DNA, it could possibly be some impostor intent on impugning the good name of the real Matt Temkin.

:supergrin:

'Drew
Clueless. :cool:

23 David
02-27-2010, 09:35
Well, yeah, what with the big green "Featuring Matthew Temkin" on the screen. Don't worry Drew, we'll make a dick out of you yet. ("Detective", for you gutterminded readers.)



Yes, he worked in the NY Courts. I know him a bit, attended one of his seminars through IALEFI, yada yada.

He used to post here (as in T&T) until the populace ran him out. You may still be able to find his old stuff, dunno.

Anything specific you're wondering about?
I was just curious if he was a fellow NYer.
You don't see many of us on Youtube.

Plastic4Toys
02-28-2010, 07:49
I read some where that 7677 is also in this video?

Is it true that what I am hearing in the training community that Tempkin and 7677 are the ones which taught Roger Phillips and Saurez pointshooting?

Sam Spade
02-28-2010, 09:05
Is it true that what I am hearing in the training community that Tempkin and 7677 are the ones which taught Roger Phillips and Saurez pointshooting?
You left out Robin Brown. BTW, Brown posts here as "brownie", and 7677 is here as well.

As a guy who (a) has no financial or historical stake in the fight and (b) knows all parties, having taken training from 4 of the 5, I'll comment. (If you're wondering, I've watched 7677 teach, but don't count that as "taking training" from him.)

Matt's focus has been historic. He studied what his father was taught as a WWII Ranger (in combatives as well) and revived it, going back to the sources. With minor changes, it's F/S. He was one of the most vocal proponents of "point" shooting just a few years ago, and brought quite a bit of publicity to it. "Shooting to Live" contains the basics of what Matt presents, though there are some updates.

Brownie was a student of Lucky McDaniels. The Quick Kill approach stems from there. McDaniels also drew from the earlier guys, especially Applegate. AFAIK, McDaniels never put anything in publication that dealt with his pistol work, so it's kinda like the oral transmission of very traditional martial arts. Applegate, on the other hand, has a lot of detail in "Kill or Get Killed". The rifle portions of things made it into Army doctrine while we were fighting in Viet Nam.

7677 draws from both QK and F/S, but comes to the table with Modern Technique involved. He "discovered" and quantified that point shooting/aimed shooting wasn't an either/or proposition. Instead there's a continuum, a gradual merge from pure body index to hard focus on the front sight. With his LE background, he merged pieces into something that Modern Technique shooters (and administrators) understood.

Those three worthies came together for collaboration and presented several seminars. One of those seminars was "Sightless in Tucson"; Roger Phillips was there as a student. Roger had an epiphany, and he took the material and ran with it. He studied the snot out of everybody above (and others such as Paul Castle (CAR)), shot a boxcar full of ammunition and synthesized "Point Shooting Progressions". What Roger (IMO) introduced to the mix was information gleaned from sports physiologists and performance studies; he's treating a lot of this as a physical/athletic endeavor.


That's it in a nutshell. I apologize to Matt, Robin, 7677 and Roger for anything that I got wrong or nuances that I've missed. They've all been decent to me, and are all fine instructors in their own right. The personality clashes among the various Type A+ personalities are sad, but probably predictable.

Plastic4Toys
03-01-2010, 12:26
Sam,
Thanks for the clarification and you are correct that I forgot to mention Brownie and my apologies to him.

I have only been following the point shooting debates for the last few months and after reading you're post I did some research on this subject.

What I found is quite interesting:

1) Rodger Phillip's style and concepts are identical to 7677. Only Rodger is overly wordy and tends to take two paragraphs to say the same thing that 7677 or Tempkin says in two sentences on the forums.

2) Brownie, 7677, and Tempkin were trained by a CAR certified master instructor in 2004. I can't find anything regarding Rodger's training in CAR?

3) Rodger was a Quick Kill instructor for about six months.

4) Rodger left his position as a quick kill instructor and had a rather lengthy and bloody battle with Brownie on several shooting forums.

5)Tempkin taught with Brownie and 7677 in Arizona and then appeared to leave group for reason unknown and went over to Suarez just after Rodger's arrival in to this group. Then Rodger leaves this group and goes over to Saurez. Shortly after Rodgers move over to SI Tempkin leaves SI and goes back to training with Brownie.

6) I find this thread http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11401165#post11401165 but I can not find any classes where 7677 and Rodger worked together.

7) As far as I can determine Tempkin and 7677 have offered courses together the entire time regardless of who is fighting with who.

8) Tempkin left SI and shortly after Tempkin and 7677 were banned from there which leads me to wonder who the real type "A" with the personality problem really is?

Sam Spade
03-01-2010, 12:56
Yeah, you seem to have most of the drama covered. I don't know how long you've been around the shooting world, but it's pretty typical; I know of examples dating back decades. Shows up in knives and unarmed training circles, too.

Macht nichts. My interest is in keeping good guys alive. Training from any of them will help you do that, and who you mesh with best is a personality issue.

KinderGlocken
03-01-2010, 13:03
Man that accent is harsh on my ears!

JohnKSa
03-01-2010, 13:47
So, are advancing on multiple attackers and shooting at contact distances with an extended arm instead of from a retention position commonly taught techniques?

Plastic4Toys
03-01-2010, 14:27
Thank you Sam you have been a big help but to the uninformed new shooter it sure does appear that Rodger is ground zero when it comes to the drama between Tempkin, Brownie, and Suarez.

brownie
03-01-2010, 18:15
You left out Robin Brown. BTW, Brown posts here as "brownie", and 7677 is here as well.

As a guy who (a) has no financial or historical stake in the fight and (b) knows all parties, having taken training from 4 of the 5, I'll comment. (If you're wondering, I've watched 7677 teach, but don't count that as "taking training" from him.)

Matt's focus has been historic. He studied what his father was taught as a WWII Ranger (in combatives as well) and revived it, going back to the sources. With minor changes, it's F/S. He was one of the most vocal proponents of "point" shooting just a few years ago, and brought quite a bit of publicity to it. "Shooting to Live" contains the basics of what Matt presents, though there are some updates.

Brownie was a student of Lucky McDaniels. The Quick Kill approach stems from there. McDaniels also drew from the earlier guys, especially Applegate. AFAIK, McDaniels never put anything in publication that dealt with his pistol work, so it's kinda like the oral transmission of very traditional martial arts. Applegate, on the other hand, has a lot of detail in "Kill or Get Killed". The rifle portions of things made it into Army doctrine while we were fighting in Viet Nam.

7677 draws from both QK and F/S, but comes to the table with Modern Technique involved. He "discovered" and quantified that point shooting/aimed shooting wasn't an either/or proposition. Instead there's a continuum, a gradual merge from pure body index to hard focus on the front sight. With his LE background, he merged pieces into something that Modern Technique shooters (and administrators) understood.

Those three worthies came together for collaboration and presented several seminars. One of those seminars was "Sightless in Tucson"; Roger Phillips was there as a student. Roger had an epiphany, and he took the material and ran with it. He studied the snot out of everybody above (and others such as Paul Castle (CAR)), shot a boxcar full of ammunition and synthesized "Point Shooting Progressions". What Roger (IMO) introduced to the mix was information gleaned from sports physiologists and performance studies; he's treating a lot of this as a physical/athletic endeavor.


That's it in a nutshell. I apologize to Matt, Robin, 7677 and Roger for anything that I got wrong or nuances that I've missed. They've all been decent to me, and are all fine instructors in their own right. The personality clashes among the various Type A+ personalities are sad, but probably predictable.

Seems to me you covered the short version pretty well Sam. :cheers:

Hope all is well in your world sir, tell the Mrs. I said hello for me

Brownie

David Armstrong
03-02-2010, 09:08
So, are advancing on multiple attackers and shooting at contact distances with an extended arm instead of from a retention position commonly taught techniques?
Not necessarily commonly taught, but they are doctrine in some schools and philosophies, especially some of the more group-combat oriented. Some of the Israeli instructors come to mind.

BamaTrooper
03-04-2010, 11:57
I was just curious if he was a fellow NYer.
You don't see many of us on Youtube.

That's because y'all have yousetube.:tongueout:

23 David
03-04-2010, 17:43
That's because y'all have yousetube.:tongueout:
Ya got dat right..

Bandolero
03-30-2010, 16:36
Is it true that what I am hearing in the training community that Tempkin and 7677 are the ones which taught Roger Phillips and Saurez pointshooting?

This would have had to be before early 2003 because that was when I took my first course with Suarez and we were point shooting and moving off the X back then.

brownie
03-30-2010, 17:55
This would have had to be before early 2003 because that was when I took my first course with Suarez and we were point shooting and moving off the X back then.

Incorrect there Bandolero, you WERE NOT point shooting with Suarez prior to 2003 as Suarez didn't even believe threat focused skills/point shooting was viable until 7677 and Matt took their skills to Tenn for his first WTS get together in Jan 2005 and proved to him that those skills were viable and easily trained into students. :upeyes:

Historical record there sir, so no matter what you THOUGHT you were learning, you weren't getting the real skills Mr. Phillips was imparted by Matt, 7677 and myself until October 2005 at our first Sightless in Tucson.

Lets keep the record straight before others think Suarez had any semblence of an idea about point shooting skills until 7677 and Matt proved it to him in Jan 2005, and then tried to ramp up quickly himself to not be left behind once he realized he was so far behind the curve on this subject as to be living in the dark ages.

Brownie

Plastic4Toys
03-30-2010, 20:39
This would have had to be before early 2003 because that was when I took my first course with Suarez and we were point shooting and moving off the X back then.

Where did you say you took that class?

I didn't know they allow prisoners to teach shooting classes at the Los Angeles County Jail? And from the information I have gathered Suarez did not even start his forum until September 2003 and how about that book Suarez wrote and was released about the same time which had a chapter about how point shooting is dangerous.

smokin762
03-30-2010, 21:10
This is a great thread. I am glad I clicked on to it.

It would be cool to take one of these classes.

Sam Spade
03-30-2010, 23:47
And from the information I have gathered Suarez did not even start his forum until September 2003

Gabe took his plea in September 2001; he would have been out about April '02. He was teaching before his forum came on-line.

David Armstrong
03-31-2010, 12:43
This would have had to be before early 2003 because that was when I took my first course with Suarez and we were point shooting and moving off the X back then.

Gabe's earlier objections to and arguments against point-shooting are well established on many forums over the years. Like many others who verbally assaulted a small core of point-shooting supporters, he came late to the ball, but I suppose it is better late than never.

brownie
04-02-2010, 09:39
Gabe's earlier objections to and arguuments against point-shooting are well established on many forums over the years. Like many others who verbally assaulted a small core of point-shooting supporters, he came late to the ball, but I suppose it is better late than never.

My main problem with him is he now purports to be the premier point shooting dictate in the country. That's hardly going to be true when you're a johnny come lately and there's people out there like a few on this forum who have decades behind the skills themselves.

The advertising is pure marketing hype but those who don't know the history will drink the cool aid hype. It's a disservice to those students who believe they are getting the best training available. He hasn't even trained under a recognized instructor with 10 or more years on the skills himself.

BTW--anybody see the post that disappeared over on the DC forum about his premier point shooting instructor Roger Phillips negligent discharge that resulted in another person being physically injured in California? Wonder if their insurance carrier is aware of this and how he's allowed to carry insurance? :upeyes:

Glock!9
04-02-2010, 10:16
I have had a CC permit for 12 years now and have never seen this type of training. I have always felt advancing was a good approach but I do not think I fully grasp the concept of Point shooting.

PhoneCop
04-02-2010, 10:45
I have had a CC permit for 12 years now and have never seen this type of training. I have always felt advancing was a good approach but I do not think I fully grasp the concept of Point shooting.


Think of it as a tool to have in your tool box. There have been some good threads on the discussion. They get heated quickly though.

In summary- under certain conditions you may have neither the time nor the distance to use your sights. That's when unsighted/point/index shooting shows it's greatest value.

When circumstances allow, two-handed sighted fire is prolly best.

Movement is also dictated by circumstances. You may not need to move, you may need to haul ass. You may need to move in any of the 360 degrees and incorporate rolls and zig-zags... j/k... well maybe not completely, never rule anythig out.

Glock!9
04-02-2010, 11:04
Think of it as a tool to have in your tool box. There have been some good threads on the discussion. They get heated quickly though.

In summary- under certain conditions you may have neither the time nor the distance to use your sights. That's when unsighted/point/index shooting shows it's greatest value.

When circumstances allow, two-handed sighted fire is prolly best.

Movement is also dictated by circumstances. You may not need to move, you may need to haul ass. You may need to move in any of the 360 degrees and incorporate rolls and zig-zags... j/k... well maybe not completely, never rule anythig out.
Thank you for the clarification.
J

mercop
04-02-2010, 19:33
Get yourself a decent airsoft and start plinking. My son is 10 and the only thing we do with pistol is shoot using "silhouette of the gun", he will stand their forever at about 10 yards pinging my flag pole. I told him to look at the pole, bring the gun up between his eyes and the pole and squeeze the trigger. It is amazing what you can do naturally before you are "trained" out of it.

As far as extending your arm during a shooting vs shooting from retention, you will see on most police dash came that officers revert to punching out under stress regardless of training. - George

Plastic4Toys
04-05-2010, 11:50
My main problem with him is he now purports to be the premier point shooting dictate in the country. That's hardly going to be true when you're a johnny come lately and there's people out there like a few on this forum who have decades behind the skills themselves.

The advertising is pure marketing hype but those who don't know the history will drink the cool aid hype. It's a disservice to those students who believe they are getting the best training available. He hasn't even trained under a recognized instructor with 10 or more years on the skills himself.

BTW--anybody see the post that disappeared over on the DC forum about his premier point shooting instructor Roger Phillips negligent discharge that resulted in another person being physically injured in California? Wonder if their insurance carrier is aware of this and how he's allowed to carry insurance? :upeyes:

WOW, who would have thought that my question would have lead to this much controversy? Jail time, negligent discharges, and personal attacks on instructors on the other forums?

Sam you are correct the article I first read had just the month but not the year, my bad, but it still doesn't support bandolero's claim.

Bandolero, my friend has Gabe's CRG DVD and there is no point shooting and only slow, basic linear movement in it although it was released in late 2004. I have yet to come up with a single shred of evidence to support your claim that he was teaching point shooting and dynamic movement in 2003 or even 2004. which makes me believe my leg is being pulled and there is truth in the accusations raised by other members on this forum.

brownie
04-05-2010, 12:27
WOW, who would have thought that my question would have lead to this much controversy? Jail time, negligent discharges, and personal attacks on instructors on the other forums?

Sam you are correct the article I first read had just the month but not the year, my bad, but it still doesn't support bandolero's claim.

Bandolero, my friend has Gabe's CRG DVD and there is no point shooting and only slow, basic linear movement in it although it was released in late 2004. I have yet to come up with a single shred of evidence to support your claim that he was teaching point shooting and dynamic movement in 2003 or even 2004. which makes me believe my leg is being pulled and there is truth in the accusations raised by other members on this forum.

That's because the historical record demonstrates 7677 and Matt Temkin flew to Tenn for GS's first WTS in JANUARY 05, basically challenged by him [ with the old saw he used to use of "the proof is in the pudding", to demonstrate the skills they had discussed for years here and elsewhere were not possible using various threat focused skills.

Everyone who attended saw what was possible, and Suarez didn't like it one bit he was shown to be wrong in his 2002 book about point shooting being dangerous and not worth the effort cause you could be guaranteed hits.

Quite simply, he didn't know what he didn't know, which really has begged the question of how anyone can believe anything you read in print or he puts out in his vids can be trusted to be gospel as he wants you to think, all in the name of marketing you to buy his BS.

The evidence is there, recorded for posterity for all to find if they want to search the truth instead of acting like a lemming hanging on every word he speaks as something akin to gospel [ which it's not and been proven to be false so many times in the past ].

He changes his doctrine and classes almost over night. That should be very interesting to prospective students as he purports his classes are 'cutting edge" training. How could it be cutting edge today and changed the next week for something better? :upeyes:

BTW- anyone catch the thread on DC last week about Roger Phillips having a negligent discharge causing bodily injury in California?. I think I might make that my signature line in the future here :faint:

Brownie

Sam Spade
04-05-2010, 12:53
Bandolero, my friend has Gabe's CRG DVD and there is no point shooting and only slow, basic linear movement in it although it was released in late 2004. I have yet to come up with a single shred of evidence to support your claim that he was teaching point shooting and dynamic movement in 2003 or even 2004. which makes me believe my leg is being pulled and there is truth in the accusations raised by other members on this forum.
Had to go get my folder.....I attended Gabe's (Gabe himself, not SI staff) CRG in late 2003. Getting off the X* was covered, to the diagonals both forward and backward. Body index was covered, and there was discussion about "bad breath distance", though we made allowances for the targets that got shredded by muzzle blast. The class was a giant step beyond the traditional square-range line dance, but it was well short of what's taught in pure point shooting classes. I know for a fact that this material came independent of Roger, Brownie or Matt.

Frankly, I invented a lot of this unsighted stuff. No, I don't have a big head, because I know that what I was doing falls into the category of "inevitable discovery". Dozens or hundreds or more shooters have figured out that they don't really use the sights when they go very close and very fast. What the notables mentioned in this thread have done is to refine things and explain things and put them into an efficient package for learning. What took me years' of reps to just start to see, the new guy can get solid in a couple of weeks. BTW, my first exposure to the exsistance of non-sighted shooting was about the first Gulf War, with something called the "Cirillio weapon silhouette". That's now commonly referred to as "metal on meat" and was part of 7677's presentation.

My sole object remains keeping good guys alive. I stand by my earlier: Training from any of them will help you do that, and who you mesh with best is a personality issue.


* One of the problems we have on the boards is a lack of common vocabulary. That's why I chose a term that you didn't use. Was Gabe's material in my CRG "point shooting" and "dynamic movement"? Dunno, but it was sure "without sights shooting" and "move before you die movement".

Sam Spade
04-05-2010, 12:58
That's because the historical record demonstrates 7677 and Matt Temkin flew to Tenn for GS's first WTS in JANUARY 05, basically challenged by him [ with the old saw he used to use of "the proof is in the pudding", to demonstrate the skills they had discussed for years here and elsewhere were not possible using various threat focused skills.
I had forgotten this. Wasn't at the seminar, but I remember the posts.

What's "DC"?

brownie
04-05-2010, 13:24
I had forgotten this. Wasn't at the seminar, but I remember the posts.

What's "DC"?

Defensive Carry Forum
http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/

Brownie

Sam Spade
04-05-2010, 13:55
Defensive Carry Forum
http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/

Brownie

Thanks. What, I have to go over there to find out that another "Sightless Somewhere in AZ" is in the works? 'Supwidat?

brownie
04-05-2010, 14:24
Thanks. What, I have to go over there to find out that another "Sightless Somewhere in AZ" is in the works? 'Supwidat?

:rofl:

Matt, 7677 and I are working out details for a "Sightless" in Feb 2011 at Rio Salado, Mesa, Az. I recently became involved with a gun shop www.thegundepot.com [ 50.00 over cost on every gun ] so I'm back to working my butt off most days but it's very good for garnering interest in the classes.

I'll post up the schedule here and on our site http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/index.php for Rio in Feb once everything is firmed up on dates, but it's months out and we can't rent the private bays [ where we trained ] until 90 days before we want it.

I don't spend much time over here lately, but we'll keep everyone up to speed on the "Sightless at Rio".

Brownie

PhoneCop
04-05-2010, 14:27
Frankly, I invented a lot of this unsighted stuff. No, I don't have a big head, because I know that what I was doing falls into the category of "inevitable discovery". Dozens or hundreds or more shooters have figured out that they don't really use the sights when they go very close and very fast.

This is so very true.

What the notables mentioned in this thread have done is to refine things and explain things and put them into an efficient package for learning. What took me years' of reps to just start to see, the new guy can get solid in a couple of weeks. BTW, my first exposure to the exsistance of non-sighted shooting was about the first Gulf War, with something called the "Cirillio weapon silhouette". That's now commonly referred to as "metal on meat" and was part of 7677's presentation.

This is the value of instruction. Though a dedicated shooter might put it together in a couple weeks if he is introspective and honest with himself.


* One of the problems we have on the boards is a lack of common vocabulary. That's why I chose a term that you didn't use. Was Gabe's material in my CRG "point shooting" and "dynamic movement"? Dunno, but it was sure "without sights shooting" and "move before you die movement".

And the willingness to argue ad nauseum over irrelevent differences which prolly prevents agreement on common terms.

brownie
04-05-2010, 15:43
This is so very true.



This is the value of instruction. Though a dedicated shooter might put it together in a couple weeks if he is introspective and honest with himself.




And the willingness to argue ad nauseum over irrelevent differences which prolly prevents agreement on common terms.

Relevance is a relative term. What you may find irrelevant, others find very relevant. Historical records and time lines become very relevant when people are being less than truthful about when and where they had knowledge of certain skills and were even capable of performing them, let alone teach them.

Students should have the benefit of knowing the truth, not marketing hype when determining who has the knowledge and who can train them in the skills they seek. Students in our classes just 4 years ago should be like children, seen and not heard instead of trying to lead people down a path they themselves have barely begun.

Brownie

Plastic4Toys
04-05-2010, 16:14
This is so very true.



This is the value of instruction. Though a dedicated shooter might put it together in a couple weeks if he is introspective and honest with himself.




And the willingness to argue ad nauseum over irrelevant differences which prolly prevents agreement on common terms.

Phone cop,
Since you made the allegation, finish it. Who is arguing ad nauseum over irrelevant differences? I wanted to take a self defense class and started asking around and I have learned in this thread that a particular instructor has served jail time and another had negligent discharge that injured another person.

Sir, I may not be experienced at shooting as some in this thread but I wasn't born yesterday either what I see going on here is the truth is being ferreted out and I'm glad that gentleman like Sam and Brownie have the guts to stand up and to tell the truth. Believe me since this thread has started I have done my homework and I have read and watched DVDs and there is a big difference between the two sides. If a simple small town engineer can figure this out why haven't you?

CRUEL HAND LUKE
04-05-2010, 16:26
I think he was talking about "lack of common vocabulary" and people arguing the same thing, just using different words. I do not think phone cop was making accusations.


As far as my perspective goes, I read Suarez's books back in the day. They were largely modern technique...UNTIL his book "Secrets of Reality BAsed Gunfighting" came out. I felt it was a pretty significant departure from the past books and while I got something out of the earlier books, this one was far more in line with what conclusions I had come to on my own.

You see I had been using what I call Alternative Indexing Methods because I just do not like the term "point shooting" largely due to the toxic baggage it carries around due to ridiculous arguments on internet forums over the years. Since the late 90s I had been using it in IDPA and Cowboy action shooting . So I KNEW that a picture perfect sight picture was not required to hit what you wanted as long as the distance was appropriate.In fact I can relate to Sam as I "invented" on my own in the late 90s what I later found to be something someone here bases their whole program on. But like Sam says if it is that OBVIOUS it is likely the realm of inevitable discovery and people will eventually find it anyway...no point in arguing who invented it.

By the time Suarez and I met and he offered me a job in 2005 he was publicly talking about using "Metal and meat" and "learning perfection and stepping away from it as necessary".

But even before that he was talking about using less than sighted fire on his own forum.

Frankly I wish Suarez and Brownie would just go to some third world country and fight a duel and get this crap over with. At least then maybe EVERY thread in the Tactics and Training forum here would not turn into a new episode of "Brownie hates Suarez"....which frankly gets very old,stale and boring.

brownie
04-05-2010, 16:59
I think he was talking about "lack of common vocabulary" and people arguing the same thing, just using different words. I do not think phone cop was making accusations.


As far as my perspective goes, I read Suarez's books back in the day. They were largely modern technique...UNTIL his book "Secrets of Reality BAsed Gunfighting" came out. I felt it was a pretty significant departure from the past books and while I got something out of the earlier books, this one was far more in line with what conclusions I had come to on my own.

You see I had been using what I call Alternative Indexing Methods because I just do not like the term "point shooting" largely due to the toxic baggage it carries around due to ridiculous arguments on internet forums over the years. Since the late 90s I had been using it in IDPA and Cowboy action shooting . So I KNEW that a picture perfect sight picture was not required to hit what you wanted as long as the distance was appropriate.In fact I can relate to Sam as I "invented" on my own in the late 90s what I later found to be something someone here bases their whole program on. But like Sam says if it is that OBVIOUS it is likely the realm of inevitable discovery and people will eventually find it anyway...no point in arguing who invented it.

By the time Suarez and I met and he offered me a job in 2005 he was publicly talking about using "Metal and meat" and "learning perfection and stepping away from it as necessary".

But even before that he was talking about using less than sighted fire on his own forum.

Frankly I wish Suarez and Brownie would just go to some third world country and fight a duel and get this crap over with. At least then maybe EVERY thread in the Tactics and Training forum here would not turn into a new episode of "Brownie hates Suarez"....which frankly gets very old,stale and boring.

Now that is funny Randy, because over on his own forum where you are a member, your boss has constantly made false statements about myself and shown the venom he has for me for getting him banned here several years ago for registering many user names and now he can't post his BS over here and talk to himself as alter ego's. At least I post the historical record, which apparently now, according to you is now considered hate.

I haven't seen you make statements to your boss about his venom against me every chance he gets getting old, stale and boring.

Interesting observation that begs the question of objectivity in this regard. Gabe plays his little pu**y games here, threatens me under an alter ego and then gets banned by Eric who caught him advertising his classes and then using alter ego registered names to promote the classes as if that member had been to the class in AAR's.

As to his meeting me and duelliing, he'd lose. That's not a subjective statement but a fact recognized by some of his own students who've also then attended my own classes as well as people who've shot next to him when he was a student himself in a class and the word is out among people in the know that his real gun fighting skills are against 4 legged critters called canines and shooting unarmed vagrants in the back on the Santa Monica pier. He's a mediocre shooter at best from everything I've heard from people.

You should be very careful what you wish for, your bosses career could very well be at stake here.

Brownie

Gallium
04-05-2010, 17:07
Brownie,

The schedule, dammit. :) I missed the whole thing last year because I got swamped. When you get a chance, let us peons know where you are, and when you'll be there.

:cool:

'Drew

CRUEL HAND LUKE
04-05-2010, 17:08
You can say what you want. BUt just like you can look up the court stuff you can also look up him getting commendations for bravery in gunfights that didn't involve dogs or "vagrants". But then maybe Jeff Cooper was wrong when he wrote the intro to Gabes first book.

And as I suspected I throw out something ridiculous and you take the bait and you of course felt the need to tell us all "yours is bigger" and that you would win.Of course you would...you're Brownie. But frankly THAT would turn me off as a student thinking of training with you..... confidence is great but nothing is a sure thing in a real fight. But I guess you have all the answers.

Frankly Brownie at least if you did win then maybe you could finally just shut the F*&K up......so at least I guess there would maybe be something positive to come from you winning.

brownie
04-05-2010, 17:15
Frankly Brownie at least then maybe you'd shut the F*&K up......

Randy, I know it''s difficult to have to listen to the truth about your boss, but you know what they say, the truth may hurt, but the truth is always the truth.

Something your boss has no comprehension about. If this is hurting your bottom line, wait till I dredge up all the old posts for the new members to read who don't have the background on Mr. Suarez and his BS here which got him banned, then it won't be so much hurting the bottom line as it will be hurting the bottom when it's broken off inside.

And as I suspected you felt the need to tell us all yours is bigger and that you would win. Maybe maybe not.

Nice try, but the subterfuge doesn't cut it as I clearly stated my comments about the outcome were based on others who've seen both of us shoot. I made no direct statement as to my own thoughts on that subject. It's not about who's is bigger, but everyone knows he's a mediocre shooter at best who's objective about his skills. It's something your group is quite fond of, trying to twist the obvious like now [ in bold above ].

Cooper was obviously being kind to a former trainer of his who made him money. You purporting to have first hand direct knowledge about why Cooper wrote something flattering for him now? Or just trying to use more subterfuge to get the impetus off your boss being a convicted criminal who served time. Those of us who remember the good old days back in 2003-2004 remember when your boss purported to have won 6 gunfights, and we later learned 4 of them were shooting canines. Since that information has been presented here and other forums, you don't see him spout off about his 6 gunfights very often any more and it's become quite obvious he wants people to forget he'd ever mentioned them.

BTW- anyone catch the thread on DC last week about Roger Phillips having a negligent discharge causing bodily injury in California?. I think I might make that my signature line in the future here :faint:

Brownie

brownie
04-05-2010, 17:33
Brownie,

The schedule, dammit. :) I missed the whole thing last year because I got swamped. When you get a chance, let us peons know where you are, and when you'll be there.

:cool:

'Drew

Will do Drew. I've got a pistol course in three weeks in Fla that's full and will probably not put on another until fall as I'm involved in a neew gun shop out here which is taking a lot of time this year to get it up and running.

CRUEL HAND LUKE
04-05-2010, 18:54
If this is hurting your bottom line, wait till I dredge up all the old posts for the new members to read who don't have the background on Mr. Suarez and his BS here which got him banned, then it won't be so much hurting the bottom line as it will be hurting the bottom when it's broken off inside.

Wow that was cute. What are you now...15?

Bring it. Dredge it up Brownie. All this does is make you look even more like the fool you are.... or some psycho stalker who got dumped by an old lover and cannot let it go so they have to constantly run ther ex down. I guess if you're not able to fill classes you have to turn to picking on someone who is successful. Is that really working for you now?

I wish you the best of luck..... maybe if you had more classes to teach you'd have less time to sit on the internet all day running down other trainiers. For Temkin and 7677's sake I hope you guys are successful and are able to save some money......because we all know it will just be a matter of time before you stab them in the back ...again.......That's right, some of us know YOUR history too.I have a PM box full of it from your former and again present friends..... But we also know that airing dirty laundry does nothing positive. You apparently never learned that growing up though. And as I told you before, I'll never divulge things told to me in confidence and I will keep that promise. But you are not the only one who told me stuff that was never to be made public. But maybe they do not feel that way anymore...maybe all is forgiven and forgotten.....

And as far as Roger Phillips goes, isn't that kind of sad that you run your mouth about him but he was your "brother" not too long ago. If you supposedly "taught him all he knows" and he was your "star pupil" then isn't it a slam on you when you run him down? That just never did add up......

So I'll do the professional thing and let it go. One day you'll see that bashing Suarez does not HELP you. And that if you spent less time being a caustic , toxic jackass on the internet that maybe you'd have enough people in class so that you could finally put to rest your obsession with Gabe Suarez. You know the funniest thing? You have this anti-Suarez jihad going on all over the web....and you never even cross our minds until we come here......how ironic....

NMGlocker
04-05-2010, 19:00
Where did you say you took that class?

I didn't know they allow prisoners to teach shooting classes at the Los Angeles County Jail? And from the information I have gathered Suarez did not even start his forum until September 2003 and how about that book Suarez wrote and was released about the same time which had a chapter about how point shooting is dangerous.
I attended a Suarez "Tactical Advantage" seminar in November '02 and a "Close Range Gunfighting" class in November of '03.

NMGlocker
04-05-2010, 19:04
Bandolero, my friend has Gabe's CRG DVD and there is no point shooting and only slow, basic linear movement in it although it was released in late 2004. I have yet to come up with a single shred of evidence to support your claim that he was teaching point shooting and dynamic movement in 2003 or even 2004. which makes me believe my leg is being pulled and there is truth in the accusations raised by other members on this forum.
I attended CRG, Nov. '03.
There was movement including 360 scans.
There was index/retention shooting sans sights.
There was sight continuum shooting from no sights to soft and hard focus.
Close Range Gunfighting November 2003 Abilene, Tx.

NMGlocker
04-05-2010, 19:08
That's because the historical record demonstrates 7677 and Matt Temkin flew to Tenn for GS's first WTS in JANUARY 05,
But the "Tactical Advantage Seminar" preceded the WTS by several years.
I attended the one in the Dallas area Nov. 2002.
I'm no Gabe cheeleader (or even a fan), but I know what I did in his classes and seminars.
Historical record...

brownie
04-05-2010, 19:19
Wow that was cute. What are you now...15?

Bring it. Dredge it up Brownie. All this does is make you look even more like the fool you are.... or some psycho stalker who got dumped by an old lover and cannot let it go so they have to constatnly run ther ex down. I guess if you're not able to fill classes you have to turn to picking on someone who is successfulIs that really working for you now?

I wish you the best of luck..... maybe if you had more classes to teach you'd have less time to sit on the internet all day running down other trainiers. For Temkin and 7677's sake I hope you guys are successful and are able to save some money......because we all know it will just be a matter of time before you stab them in the back ...again.......That's right, some of us know YOUR history too.I have a PM box full of it ..... But we also know that airing dirty laundry does nothing positive. You apparently never learned that growing up though.

And as far as Roger goes, isn't that kind of sad that you run your mouth about him but he was your "brother" not too long ago. If you supposedly "taught him all he knows" and he was your "star pupil" then isn't it a slam on you when you run him down? That just never did add up......

So I'll do the professional thing and let it go. One day you'll see that bashing Suarez does not HELP you. And that if you spent less time being a caustic , toxic jackass on the internet that maybe you'd have enough people in class so that you could finally put to rest your obsession with Gabe Suarez. You know the funniest thing? You have this anti-Suarez jihad going on all over the web....and you never even cross our minds until we come here......how ironic....

Filling classes:?

Got 24 students signed on in Florida for the weekend of May 24,25 near Daytona. Just had a class down there a month ago with 22 students for H2h and defensive edged weapons. Filling classes isn't a problem at all but thanks for the concern :rofl: Here's a link to a lot of photos from the last classs in case anyone is interested in if I actually did a class last month.

http://picasaweb.google.com/110847639927627214562/H2H?feat=directlink#

http://picasaweb.google.com/110847639927627214562/H2H2ndDay?feat=directlink#

Bringing the truth to the members attention about the lying SOB you call your boss pales in comparison to his own lies about the summary of events that led to his being outed here Randy. Funny, I don't see you spouting this same rhetoric about your bosses posts about myself on his site.

Dredge it up Brownie. All this does is make you look even more like the fool you are.

Opinions vary don't they? What it does is re-document for those who are new to the forum here and don't know the back story, hence might start believing the info-marketing hype he puts out. Could save someone from a training mistake from believing the hype. In fact, I've got two PM's in today that state they are glad I've posted up the back story on him, saved them some money tasking one of his classes.

Some of you think you know the history, some of you don't and of course, both 7677 and Matt Temkin are training with me presently. The three of us put on a great Sightless at Rio Salado course out here Feb 08 with reviews here:

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2420
http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2413
http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2414

As far as the "star" pupil Roger goes, lets clear the air on Roger's departure from our training group.

Roger was asked to leave after he disclosed he had the negligent discharge which resulted in injuring someone in California. I'm sure Roger didn't explain that to your boss or anyone else who works for that organization. I'd been asked nicely to keep the above quiet and never post it as to why Roger didn't stay long with us. But now, as you know through a PM, I've been given the go ahead to clear the air on this issue as well. Bet your boss didn't know about Rogers ND, but I bet he's now aware of it or will be shortly.

You see Randy, you don't know what you don't know in these matters you speak of. Typical subterfuge which is easily dismissed again.

Brownie

PhoneCop
04-05-2010, 19:56
Relevance is a relative term. What you may find irrelevant, others find very relevant.

I knew someone would argue this. For the record I was thinking more along the lines of ego-driven argument instead of factual issues. I should have clarified when I wrote it right off the bat; my bad.


Historical records and time lines become very relevant when people are being less than truthful about when and where they had knowledge of certain skills and were even capable of performing them, let alone teach them.

Students should have the benefit of knowing the truth, not marketing hype when determining who has the knowledge and who can train them in the skills they seek. Students in our classes just 4 years ago should be like children, seen and not heard instead of trying to lead people down a path they themselves have barely begun.

Brownie

Regarding this, see Cruel Hand Luke's observation above, he got it.

I got no liquid in this pissing contest.

But I basically predicted the reality of the last page or so of this thread back on page 1.

PhoneCop
04-05-2010, 20:01
Phone cop,
Since you made the allegation, finish it. Who is arguing ad nauseum over irrelevant differences? I wanted to take a self defense class and started asking around and I have learned in this thread that a particular instructor has served jail time and another had negligent discharge that injured another person.

Sir, I may not be experienced at shooting as some in this thread but I wasn't born yesterday either what I see going on here is the truth is being ferreted out and I'm glad that gentleman like Sam and Brownie have the guts to stand up and to tell the truth. Believe me since this thread has started I have done my homework and I have read and watched DVDs and there is a big difference between the two sides. If a simple small town engineer can figure this out why haven't you?

Here, let me set you straight.

I made no allegation.
I was observing the human condition to be competitive and with some it goes very far in arguing stupid **** just so they can claim to be right.

and,

I don't care about this Suarez and whomever else thing.

If you do, please, be at peace with it.

brownie
04-05-2010, 20:20
I attended CRG, Nov. '03.
There was movement including 360 scans.
There was index/retention shooting sans sights.
There was sight continuum shooting from no sights to soft and hard focus.
Close Range Gunfighting November 2003 Abilene, Tx.

NMGlocker,

Perhaps you've got your time frame mixed up. He wasn't using "sight continuum" in his classes in 03 as 7677 first mentioned THE sight continuum [ where the phrase was originally coined ] on 8/27/04 on WT when he stated:

I believe in the sight continuum. (or as Gabe has coined “see what you need to see to make the shot”). The first rule in my sight continuum is if you have time to use your sights use it but don’t die in order to use it.

Gabe was still using the term "see what you need to see" in Nov 03 and hadn't even heard the term sight continuum until after Aug 04 when 7677 wrote of it then.

Brownie

CRUEL HAND LUKE
04-05-2010, 20:46
Good grief Brownie......It means the same thing.

AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT PHONE COP WAS SAYING.

Talking about the SAME thing but trying to make your version "special" by using different terminology. It is the SAME thing. In fact, read what you posted.....It is 7677 saying that it IS the same thing. If you call it unga bunga and he calls it great googly moogly it IS the same thing. Sight continuum and "See what you need to see" are the SAME concept and arguing other wise is just childishly petty and disingenuous. Hate it for ya B, but it is the SAME thing. And your boy 7677 even says as much...in the quote YOU posted.


No Suarez may not have uttered the exact words "SIGHT CONTINUUM" in that class, but if NMGlocker was shooting from using sights to "metal on meat" or "type 2 focus" and all the way in to retention then he was in fact ......

A. POINT SHOOTING and
B. doing it in a Suarez class before you say is possible.

So hopefully those who are viewing this will see that this all just ridiculous CRAP. Give it up Brownie......this obsession you have with Gabe has finally caused you to come unhinged.

brownie
04-05-2010, 20:56
Good grief Brownie......It means the same thing.

AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT PHONE COP WAS SAYING.

Talking about the SAME thing but trying to make your version "special" by using different terminology. It is the SAME thing. In fact, read what you posted.....It is 7677 saying that it IS the same thing. If you call it unga bunga and he calls it great googly moogly it IS the same thing. Sight continuum and "See what you need to see" are the SAME concept and arguing other wise is just childishly petty and disingenuous. Hate it for ya B, but it is the SAME thing. And your boy 7677 even says as much...in the quote YOU posted.


No Suarez may not have uttered the exact words "SIGHT CONTINUUM" in that class, but if NMGlocker was shooting from using sights to "metal on meat" or "type 2 focus" and all the way in to retention then he was in fact ......

A. POINT SHOOTING and
B. doing it in a Suarez class before you say is possible.

So hopefully those who are viewing this will see that this all just ridiculous CRAP. Give it up Brownie......this obsession you have with Gabe has finally caused you to come unhinged.

Of course they are close to the same or the same, I didn't suggest otherwise here. I only stated that the sight continuum was not taught in 03 by GS.

You seem to be the one making some point of contention where there was non about covering the same principles in the two.

It's important to keep the record straight as time moves forward, because it's statements made that are in error that become true if not shown through historical record to be inaccurate.

Terminology is certainly important, and though two coined phrases can mean the same thing, represent the same thought process, the actual terminology that's been used should be correct lest history once again be distorted either by design or mistakenly.

Brownie

NMGlocker
04-05-2010, 21:02
NMGlocker,

Perhaps you've got your time frame mixed up. He wasn't using "sight continuum" in his classes in 03 as 7677 first mentioned THE sight continuum [ where the phrase was originally coined ] on 8/27/04 on WT when he stated:

I believe in the sight continuum. (or as Gabe has coined “see what you need to see to make the shot”). The first rule in my sight continuum is if you have time to use your sights use it but don’t die in order to use it.

Gabe was still using the term "see what you need to see" in Nov 03 and hadn't even heard the term sight continuum until after Aug 04 when 7677 wrote of it then.

Brownie
I know exactly when I took the course.
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/Dsc00786.jpg
And I haven't attended a Suarez class since '03.

WTF is "The" sight continuum?
Your aren't trying to lay claim to inventing the vernacular that's been in use by multiple trainers for years?
I've heard "sight continuum" in classes as far back as 2001.
Same as "use of force continuum" and other assorted "continuum"'s.
I've also heard it called "focus continuum", "see what you need to see..." and other assorted phrases that all mean the exact same thing.
Only nobody else has the need to feed their ego by laying claim to a phrase that's been in use longer than these forums have existed.

brownie
04-05-2010, 21:08
I know exactly when I took the course.
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/Dsc00786.jpg
And I haven't attended a Suarez class since '03.

WTF is "The" sight continuum?
Your aren't trying to lay claim to inventing the vernacular that's been in use by multiple trainers for years?
I've heard "sight continuum" in classes as far back as 2001.
Same as "use of force continuum" and other assorted "continuum"'s.

It's well established that 7677 first coined the term [ and that was 2004 ], even among the WTer's.

My post wasn't about when you took the course, it was the statement that Suarez used the term sight continuum on 03, when he was actually using "see what you need to see" back then.

BTW, that's a very nice cert you've got there sir.

Brownie

Plastic4Toys
04-05-2010, 21:17
Phonecop,
You quote the conversation between me and Sam and make a allegation about the terms I used and my willingness to argue ad nauseum over irrelevant issues and now you are setting me straight?

How about I set you straight I asked a simple question about a video and I was receiving a honest answer until you appointed yourself the keeper of this thread and decided to inject your agenda in my business. Where I come from this type of behavior is considered rude and just cause for a attitude adjustment.

I guess you consider the fact your next trainer had a negligent discharge that hurt another person irrelevant until of course they accidentally shoot you or maybe your wife or your son or daughter in next class you take with them.

A piece of advice, If you don't care then don't post!

Now if you were not referring to my post and were talking about the appendage measuring contest started by Randy Harris with Brownie then my bad you are correct.

Randy I have noticed that you have not disputed a single fact raised but went straight for Brownie's jugular on your first post. It seems to me this is old unfinished business but I will inform you my friend is really pissed that he paid for a DVD labeled by Suarez as cutting edge only to find out later that Suarez allegedly taught something even better 6 to 8 months earlier. What else can we expect to learn after the fact?

I'm just curious if Suarez was the master point shooting authority why did he take on Matt Tempkin and then later Rodger Phillips to teach it?

I think I'll take Sam's word on this issue.

PhoneCop
04-05-2010, 21:34
Phonecop,
You quote the conversation between me and Sam and make a allegation about the terms I used and my willingness to argue ad nauseum over irrelevant issues and now you are setting me straight?

Actually I quoted Sam, I made no allegation about your terms at all,

How about I set you straight I asked a simple question about a video and I was receiving a honest answer until you appointed yourself the keeper of this thread and decided to inject your agenda in my business. Where I come from this type of behavior is considered rude and just cause for a attitude adjustment.

I appointed myself nothing, but apparently you feel the need to put me in a box for some reason.

When you get to the attitude adjustment, let me know.

I guess you consider the fact your next trainer had a negligent discharge that hurt another person irrelevant until of course they accidentally shoot you or maybe your wife or your son or daughter in next class you take with them.

Thanks pretty lame internet argument right there, I don't care who you are. I have opined in to no way on the negligent discharge issue. Since you want this to be about a reported ND. If it's true, it's unforgiveable. Feel better?

A piece of advice, If you don't care then don't post!

Thanks for the advice. When I don't care I won't post. Come to think about it. I haven't posted on the Suarez whomever dangle wangle contest except when you dragged me into it with your "I'm too frickin hard-headed to get what PhoneCop is talking about and even when he tells me what he's talking about I'm gonna insist that my take on what he is talking about trumps his declaration as to what he is talking about," BS.

Now if you were not referring to my post and were talking about the appendage measuring contest by Randy Harris then my bad you are correct.

I'm not talking about that either. See what I wrote.

Randy I have noticed that you have not disputed a single fact raised but went straight for Brownie's jugular on your first post.

I don't give a damn what you and Randy noticed. I'm sorry you misunderstood my post. I tried to correct the misunderstanding, but right now it appears you insist on being right about your interpretaion of my post instead of moving past the fricking misunderstanding.

It seems to me this is old unfinished business prolly

but I will inform you my friend is really pissed that he paid for a DVD labeled by Suarez as cutting edge only to find out later that Suarez allegedly taught something even better 6 to 8 months earlier.

I'd be pissed too.

I'm just curious if Suarez was the master point shooting authority why did he take on Matt Tempkin and then later Rodger Phillips to teach it?

I hope you get your answer.

I think I'll take Sam's word on this issue.

Seems reasonable. I didn't say anything different.

CRUEL HAND LUKE
04-05-2010, 21:57
[QUOTE=Plastic4Toys;15074073]Randy I have noticed that you have not disputed a single fact raised but went straight for Brownie's jugular on your first post. QUOTE]

You don't know me and I don't know you. But from the better part of 10 years here I know Brownie pretty well.......

Brownie has played the same tired old song here for the better part of a decade. I was posting here when EVERY major trainer in the industry posted here, when Jeff Gonzalez was a moderator here. And Brownie is still beating the same drum. Seriously dude, he is OBSESSED with Suarez. How does a thread about MATT TEMKIN and TEMKIN'S video become a thread about Gabe Suarez? How is that possible. Robin Brown makes that possible.

If you think THAT was me going for Brownie's jugular, that was actually pretty civil. And I doubt many would say anything I posted comes anywhere close to appendage measuring. I simply told him what I ALWAYS tell him...."give it up...drop the obsession you have with Suarez.."

I simply do not give him any credibility by answering his ridiculous arguments...especially when he destroys his own argument in his own post about the "sighting continuum" vs. "see what you need to see". You see he and I DO have a history. He continually derails threads with his anti Suarez obsession and I try (no avail) to get him to give it up becasue all it does is make ALL of us instructors look like whiney little children. And in no small part he is responsible for most of the big name instructors no longer posting here.

As far as your video issue goes,I have no idea what that is about. If you actually want to have a cogent logical discussion I'd be willing to discuss it in a PM. But from the tone of your post I kind of get the idea you are not really interested in a cogent logical discussion...but maybe I'm wrong? If so hit me with a PM. But this thread has really probably run its course. As far as Suarez being a MASTER point shooter instructor...what the heck is that? Is that what Brownie is calling himself now? Is HE a master point shooting instructor? Where did he get that title? Did he make it up?

You see all of us no matter how long we have been doing this are still students. No one knows everything. Not Suarez, not Brownie, not anyone. Roger teaches point shooting as a "specialist instructor " for Suarez Int. But he does not teach every other class we offer. We teach what we know and what our areas of interest are and we continue learning the rest. If you want some one to teach how to fight in a phone booth Roger is not the guy to go to. On the other hand if you want to take a precision scoped rifle class I'm not your man. That is just not my area of interest . In fact my area of interest lately has been focusing on working knife with Tom Sotis for about the last year. Some of us are good at several things and some focus on one thing. Suarez still teaches some but mostly runs the business. So why does he NEED to be a "master" point shooting instructor?

And again this boils down to 1 thing. Brownie has an OBSESSION with Suarez and what used to just be personal is now apparently business too as it is also the cornerstone of his marketing plan to bash Suarez. Maybe that will work for him. Maybe not. But seriously he needs to let it go before he ends up with a tumor. Carrying all that hate around is not healthy.

Plastic4Toys
04-05-2010, 22:05
Thanks for the advice. When I don't care I won't post. Come to think about it. I haven't posted on the Suarez whomever dangle wangle contest except when you dragged me into it with your "I'm too frickin hard-headed to get what PhoneCop is talking about and even when he tells me what he's talking about I'm gonna insist that my take on what he is talking about trumps his declaration as to what he is talking about," BS.

I'm not talking about that either.

I don't give a damn what you and Randy notice. I'm sorry you misunderstood my post. I tried to tell correct the misunderstanding, but right not it appears someone just has to be right instead of moving past the fricking misunderstanding.

Dude, I didn't drag you into anything. And, you need to read what you wrote because I don't have a clue what you are trying to say at this point in the game.

Catalina
04-05-2010, 22:22
:popcorn:

I'm wondering if the basis of all this vitriol is money?

brownie
04-05-2010, 22:22
[QUOTE=Plastic4Toys;15074073]Randy I have noticed that you have not disputed a single fact raised but went straight for Brownie's jugular on your first post. QUOTE]

You don't know me and I don't know you. But from the better part of 10 years here I know Brownie pretty well.......

Brownie has played the same tired old song here for the better part of a decade. I was posting here when EVERY major trainer in the industry posted here, when Jeff Gonzalez was a moderator here. And Brownie is still beating the same drum. Seriously dude, he is OBSESSED with Suarez. How does a thread about MATT TEMKIN and TEMKIN'S video become a thread about Gabe Suarez? How is that possible. Robin Brown makes that possible.

If you think THAT was me going for Brownie's jugular, that was actually pretty civil. And I doubt many would say anything I posted comes anywhere close to appendage measuring. I simply told him what I ALWAYS tell him...."give it up...drop the obsession you have with Suarez.."

I simply do not give him any credibility by answering his ridiculous arguments...especially when he destroys his own argument in his own post about the "sighting continuum" vs. "see what you need to see". You see he and I DO have a history. He continually derails threads with his anti Suarez obsession and I try (no avail) to get him to give it up becasue all it does is make ALL of us instructors look like whiney little children. And in no small part he is responsible for most of the big name instructors no longer posting here.

As far as your video issue goes,I have no idea what that is about. If you actually want to have a cogent logical discussion I'd be willing to discuss it in a PM. But from the tone of your post I kind of get the idea you are not interested in a cogent logical discussion...but maybe I'm wrong? If so hit me with a PM. But this thread has really probably run its course. As far as Suarez being a MASTER point shooter instructor...what the heck is that? Is that what Brownie is calling himself now? Is HE a master point shooting instructor? Where did he get that title? Did he make it up?

You see all of us no matter how long we have been doing this are still students. Roger teaches point shooting as a "specialist instructor " for Suarez. But he does not teach every other class we offer. We teach what we are good at or what our areas of interest are and continue learning the rest. If you want some one to teach how to fight in a phone booth Roger is not the guy to go to. On the other hand if you want to take a precision scoped rifle class I'm not your man-not my area of interest . Suarez still teaches some but mostly runs the business. So why does he NEED to be a "master" point shooting instructor?

And again this boils down to 1 thing. Brownie has an OBSESSION with Suarez and what used to just be personal is now apparently business too as apparently now his marketing plan is to bash Suarez. Maybe that will work for him. Maybe not. But seriously he needs to let it go before he ends up with a tumor. Carrying all that hate around is not healthy.

Brownie has played the same tired old song here for the better part of a decade

Only since 2006, that's not the better part of a decade by a long shot. Do you get your exaggerating skills from your boss, we know he's been one of the best at it for more than the better part of 10 years. :rofl:

You see Plastic4Toys, the people in that organization can't seem to state the truth no matter how hard they try, even just stating the number of years that have passed since Suarez took it upon himself to threaten me here under one of his alter ego's name Leonidas in 2006. 4 years does not make the better part of a decade.

My obsession, as Randy would have you believe, isn't an obsession at all. It's taking every opportunity to make sure everyone gets to hear just what a POS his boss is after his boss continuously lied about several summary of events in an attempt to discredit me after he was outed here, and subsequently banned for using several alter egos. One of which outright threatened me on this forum which was his undoing as Eric was notified and subsequently discovered the alter egos used by him, then posted a thread about his findings and publicy banned him here.

They'll occasionally try to portray myself as some nut job, but if that's true, I suppose you'd have to think the nut job outsmarted his boss in the end, as I'm still here and his boss is long gone. Sure Randy and I have gone a few rounds in the past, but it's because he feels he has to defend his boss in some way, and like his boss, would rather the past lay dormant as it doesn't benefit their business.

Randy can't address the statements about his boss. It's of no benefit to do so as they are true and it would only perpetuate more posts, which he always hopes will stop if he ignores them..

Brownie

CRUEL HAND LUKE
04-05-2010, 22:31
Brownie you are LYING. Flat out LYING. You were running down Suarez from the time you got booted from his forum. And you were here spewing the hate in late 04 and early 05 for SURE because you and I squared off about you running Suarez down before I ever even met the guy. In fact your vitriole about Suarez was one reason I went to his class...in 2005 .....to see what all that was about. So don't even try that crap Brownie....You are obsessed with Suarez and that is that. Otherwise you wouldn't turn EVERY thread into something about him.......

Plastic4Toys
04-05-2010, 22:50
[QUOTE=Plastic4Toys;15074073]Randy I have noticed that you have not disputed a single fact raised but went straight for Brownie's jugular on your first post. QUOTE]

You don't know me and I don't know you. But from the better part of 10 years here I know Brownie pretty well.......

If you think THAT was me going for Brownie's jugular, that was actually pretty civil. And I doubt many would say anything I posted comes anywhere close to appendage measuring. I simply told him what I ALWAYS tell him...."give it up...drop the obsession you have with Suarez.."


As far as your video issue goes,I have no idea what that is about. If you actually want to have a cogent logical discussion I'd be willing to discuss it in a PM. But from the tone of your post I kind of get the idea you are not interested in a cogent logical discussion...but maybe I'm wrong? If so hit me with a PM. But this thread has really probably run its course. As far as Suarez being a MASTER point shooter instructor...what the heck is that? Is that what Brownie is calling himself now? Is HE a master point shooting instructor? Where did he get that title? Did he make it up?
Randy,
I was talking about the discussion on this thread before you, phonecop, or Brownie became a part of it. If you go back you will see what I am talking about with regards to the video. I watched my friend's copy of Suarez's CRG DVD which did not contain anything close to what some people have claimed to have learned at a earlier time frame. And, Sam pretty much confirmed my observations.

brownie
04-05-2010, 23:17
Brownie you are LYING. Flat out LYING. You were running down Suarez from the time you got booted from his forum. And you were here spewing the hate in late 04 and early 05 for SURE because you and I squared off about you running Suarez down before I ever even met the guy. In fact your vitriole about Suarez was one reason I went to his class...in 2005 .....to see what all that was about. So don't even try that crap Brownie....You are obsessed with Suarez and that is that. Otherwise you wouldn't turn EVERY thread into something about him.......

Careful now Randy, I was supposed to attend the Jan 05 WTS in Tenn to demonstrate the QK skills per gabes request but then moved in Dec 04 across the country to my present location so getting back east less than three weeks out here was impossible.

Suarez decided in Feb 05 right after the WTS1 that he was going to experiment with the QK skills and asked for assistance several times as he was having a hard time getting his eyes off the sights. I gave him an idea to try taking the sights off the gun and it was then he discovered the skill was good to go and posted he was going to start training other in that skill.

That wasn't going to fly with me, and then it went downhill from there about the first of March 05. I still have all those posts captured as evidence, so don't be calling me a liar when your time line is off, not mine.

Late March/early April 05 would be correct as to when HE started the malicious campaign to discredit that which I brought him to as worthless [ after he openly posted he was going to start training others in that very skill ]. I have Feb 14th 05's posts from over there where your boss is still trying to figure the skills out and playing with it. I defended myself for a few months with facts in evidence from the posts he had deleted to cover his attempt to spin his own yarns about the summary of events. In fact, I asked him three times to knock it off trying to avoid the whole mess, but he wouldn't leave it alone and kept coming back with more lies thinking I couldn't prove anything as he'd deleted the posts over there. Problem he had was I had saved it all before it was gone so the exact conversations in the posts and the summary of events were his downfall. he got so pissed he threatened me under one of his alter ego's by the name Leonidas here and THEN, and ONLY THEN, did I take the initiative to expose him for what he is, a liar, a criminal, and someone who has no compunction to tell the truth. Later 05, that's less than 5 years ago [ as in 4 years ago and some months now ].

Like I said Randy when you posted Brownie has played the same tired old song here for the better part of a decade

4 years isn't even close to the better part of a decade. Even if you were to call it 5 years, that's not the better part of a decade either. So, you stand corrected. I won't bother calling you a liar, the evidence proves that all by itself about the "better part of a decade". :supergrin:

Oh, BTW, I still have all those threads and posts by everyone saved for posterity. They sure come in handy even today when people like you seem want to embellish the truth on occasion, then scream liar when the facts in evidence on the time lines and posts are preserved so well they were able to prove your boss a liar back then as well. Smile, big smile now

As to turning EVERY thread into something about him, I'd appreciate it if, in the future, you posted factual information and not your tainted subjective opinions stated as fact lest we have a go round where I post links to threads not involving anything about him thereby proving you wrong in this regard as well like these to name a few.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1185548

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1135660

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1115605

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=915319

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=960891

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=907029

There are hundreds more links I could post proving you wrong again, but I think people get the idea with just a sampling above where no mention of "him" can be found. :rofl:

Brownie

23 David
04-06-2010, 05:04
What is a 7677?

Gallium
04-06-2010, 05:31
What is a 7677?

7677 is a firearms trainer, as are Brownie, Tempkin, Luke, Sam, NM, etc etc.

PhoneCop
04-06-2010, 06:06
Dude, I didn't drag you into anything.


That's an interesting reality.

And, you need to read what you wrote because I don't have a clue what you are trying to say at this point in the game.

Then this sounds like a good place to let it die.

threefeathers
04-06-2010, 08:52
All of these guys post on defenensivecarry.com and The High Road US.
I enjoy reading their ideas as I went through the quick kill technique at Ft. Ord during the 60's. I don't temember ever using it in combat as using the front sight had been drilled into me as a younger soldier in Berlin. (Trained by Slick Harrleson on the Berlin Brigade LeClerc Team)
I really like Ayoob's concept of stresssightpic, but I plan to take a course from Matthiew and Brownie as time permits. We all learn all the time!

David Armstrong
04-06-2010, 11:16
from Cool Hand Luke:
At least then maybe EVERY thread in the Tactics and Training forum here would not turn into a new episode of "Brownie hates Suarez"....which frankly gets very old,stale and boring.
In all fairness, Randy, there are a lot of folks who don't like Gabe's tactics, ethics, misrepresentations, and so on. It's not just Brownie. When you have one of the main gun magazines refusing to even allow advertising for a trainer due to a history of misconduct it is hard to say it is a one on one clash of personalities.

from Brownie:
Those of us who remember the good old days back in 2003-2004 remember when your boss purported to have won 6 gunfights, and we later learned 4 of them were shooting canines.
And those of us who were dealing with him before then remember when he used to claim having won more than that. IIRC, the number 10 used to be tossed around a lot.

threefeathers
04-06-2010, 22:09
Good Lord, I should have read the entire thread but I had just driven in from Tucson where I picked up a 2 years old Shep female who had just been spayed. I should be neutered for injecting a thought with no brain function:yawn:
But i do intend to take Matt and Brownies classes as soon as I can. :embarassed:

brownie
04-06-2010, 22:17
Good Lord, I should have read the entire thread but I had just driven in from Tucson where I picked up a 2 years old Shep female who had just been spayed. I should be neutered for injecting a thought with no brain function:yawn:
But i do intend to take Matt and Brownies classes as soon as I can. :embarassed:

Good training to you with your courses and the mils. Looking forward to meeting and training with you one day as well. :thumbsup:

And those of us who were dealing with hem before then remember when he used to claim having won more than that. IIRC, the number 10 used to be tossed around a lot.

DA,

You've got to be kidding right? 10 gunfights? :faint: Ya, okay :rofl:

Mayhem like Me
04-14-2010, 19:28
I have to Laugh I have been doing this since the 80's ... when I started carrying a semi-auto......when I first spoke with Mathew (here) he called his technique the zipper, I told him I learned it as Verticle Tracking in the 80's at the S&W academy...Cue his Video he now calls it Verticle tracking.. there are no NEW TECHNIQUES . Only new ways to market them

brownie
04-14-2010, 19:48
I have to Laugh I have been doing this since the 80's ... when I started carrying a semi-auto......when I first spoke with Mathew (here) he called his technique the zipper, I told him I learned it as Verticle Tracking in the 80's at the S&W academy...Cue his Video he now calls it Verticle tracking.. there are no NEW TECHNIQUES . Only new ways to market them

It's still called the zipper by quite a few trainers, it's also referred to as vertical stringing and stitching them. Vertical stringing is coined more often with the west coast LE boys dating back to the late 70's.

I didn't think anyone was referencing any of the skills spoken about here as being "new". In fact, much of it has been around since the early 30's and well documented. If you further cued his video, he speaks of the history behind most of the skills dating back a long time including who he learned them from like Applegate himself and his dad who was taught many of the skills in WW2 [ that would be the 40's for you folks who didn't get history 101 in school :rofl:]. The video isn't purporting to reveal "new skills" in any way, quite the opposite.

Brownie

Mayhem like Me
04-14-2010, 20:02
It's still called the zipper by quite a few trainers, it's also referred to as vertical stringing and stitching them. Vertical stringing is coined more often with the west coast LE boys dating back to the late 70's.

I didn't think anyone was referencing any of the skills spoken about here as being "new". In fact, much of it has been around since the early 30's and well documented. If you further cued his video, he speaks of the history behind most of the skills dating back a long time including who he learned them from like Applegate himself and his dad who was taught many of the skills in WW2 [ that would be the 40's for you folks who didn't get history 101 in school :rofl:]. The video isn't purporting to reveal "new skills" in any way, quite the opposite.

Brownie Not a cut at him just pointing out as you said nothing new just finding what works..

I used to say to academy cadets, I don't use my sights till I need to and that will be different for each of you..

I have also coined" shoot them into the ground" since I have been training SWAT guys and gals or about 18 years.

One of my guys/students recently had a shooting with an armed robber , he advanced off line shooting a NSR of 4 rounds till the suspect fell.. the suspect was DRT of course.....My guy has been getting this training for about 3 years straight and we shoot once a month at least so he was like on Autopilot.

I share your contempt for Gabe and have learned to let it go .....

brownie
04-14-2010, 21:04
Not a cut at him just pointing out as you said nothing new just finding what works..

I used to say to academy cadets, I don't use my sights till I need to and that will be different for each of you..

I have also coined" shoot them into the ground" since I have been training SWAT guys and gals or about 18 years.

One of my guys/students recently had a shooting with an armed robber , he advanced off line shooting a NSR of 4 rounds till the suspect fell.. the suspect was DRT of course.....My guy has been getting this training for about 3 years straight and we shoot once a month at least so he was like on Autopilot.

I share your contempt for Gabe and have learned to let it go .....

The cuban has only begun to feel what it's like to piss off an Irishman. :rofl:

Brownie

Mayhem like Me
04-15-2010, 08:25
Funny thing is right before he was sent to county lock up our Training officer had scheduled him to come out and do an In service for our instructors ,...........so I did some checking and told him that it was a bad Idea, that he appreared to be from all my professional contacts (lacking in Candor and Ethics).
My hunch was dismissed and I let everyone know that I would attend and see if he had anything to offer... But don't ya know what happened seems his sentence put him in Jail during our class date and he cancelled....he never told our training director WHY he cancelled.
I sent him(training derector) the articles of his conviction and the trainer later told me "next time I will listen to you".

brownie
04-15-2010, 08:50
Interesting summary of events sir.

The guy scheduled your groups training while collecting state workers compensation as he can't work due to an injury. :rofl:

Did the letter of cancellation come from the prison address? The postmark would be a collectors item one day :faint:

Brownie

NMGlocker
04-15-2010, 10:26
The cuban has only begun to feel what it's like to piss off an Irishman. :rofl:

Brownie
That is sad.
Reflects more on your character flaws than Gabe's.

Cody Jarrett
04-15-2010, 10:41
O-V-E-R-K-I-L-L. Jeez!

brownie
04-15-2010, 10:55
That is sad.
Reflects more on your character flaws than Gabe's.

So be it, but his bottom line will continue to suffer as long as the truth about that POS gets out in the public domain. As his motivation is and never has been about anything but relieving the unsuspecting student of his/her money instead of integrity and honor, hurting him in his pocketbook is the BEST way to return his unwarranted attacks.

Brownie

steve2267
04-15-2010, 11:12
That is sad.
Reflects more on your character flaws than Gabe's.

I beg to differ.

The shooting community knew little, if anything, of Handgun Quick Kill before Brownie wrote it down for the first time as he had been personally taught by Lucky McDaniels. For this we should all have been grateful. Gabe wrote about trying Handgun Quick Kill and some difficulties he was having on his WT forum. Brownie freely answered Gabe's questions. Gabe worked on it some more, and then posted that QK had a lot to offer (my paraphrase) and that he was going to incorporate it into his CRG courses. Brownie said "Wait a minute" and the situation went rapidly downhill from there.

Gabe has uniformly treated Brownie rather poorly and this poor treatment, IMO, reflects poorly on Gabe, not on Brownie. Brownie has stood up for himself, when many people would not. I had never thought of it before, but his Irishness would explain much about why Brownie has, on occasion, gone over the top. Would anyone expect less of an Irishman? :supergrin:

NMGlocker
04-15-2010, 14:57
I beg to differ.
steve2267
QK Instructor

:upeyes:

steve2267
04-15-2010, 15:06
Yes NMGlocker, Brownie has instructed me in Handgun Quick Kill and has stated that I am good to go to teach others Handgun Quick Kill.

Simply because I back up Brownie, you resort to character assassination? Nice.

brownie
04-15-2010, 15:42
steve2267
QK Instructor

:upeyes:

I wonder how the fact he is authorized to train in the QK skills is germain to the facts Steve presented in his post?

You aren't suggesting facts in evidence and documented would change due to someone being authorized to teach any specific skill would you? That's what it appears to be suggesting here NM. :upeyes:

Just so everyone knows who Steve is here when now that he's posted in this thread and you've brought up the fact he is authorized to train others in the Quick Kill Pistol skills through myself:

Trained with 7677, Matt Temkin and myself at the Sightless in Tucson 05 right alongside Roger Phillips for three days, came out to my place and trained privately for 4 days, has attended two other threat focused classes with myself, and one or two with 7677. Was included in Matt's new video mentioned by the OP and has more professional instruction under nationally recognized threat focused instructors than Mr. Phillips has.

Brownie

NMGlocker
04-15-2010, 17:02
I $ego$ don't $ego$ know $ego$ why $ego$ I'd $ego$ think $ego$ some $ego$ of $ego$ you $ego$ guys $ego$ have $ego$ a $ego$ hidden $ego$ agenda.

brownie
04-15-2010, 17:21
I $ego$ don't $ego$ know $ego$ why $ego$ I'd $ego$ think $ego$ some $ego$ of $ego$ you $ego$ guys $ego$ have $ego$ a $ego$ hidden $ego$ agenda.

Me either :rofl:

I don't make my money from training classes and neither does Steve.

I'll ask again, your comment seemed to suggest Steve's recanting of the summary of events where Suarez and I are concerned wasn't correct, are you questioning the veracity of the information he provided in his post, and if not, why did you bother to post it to begin with? Lets not evade the question as questioning someones integrity would, of course, reflect on your own character here :dunno:

David Armstrong
04-16-2010, 11:01
steve2267
QK Instructor
:upeyes:
I'm not a QK instructor, and I agree with steve that I too would beg to differ.

olyAR73
04-17-2010, 16:52
I beg to differ.

The shooting community knew little, if anything, of Handgun Quick Kill before Brownie wrote it down for the first time as he had been personally taught by Lucky McDaniels. For this we should all have been grateful. Gabe wrote about trying Handgun Quick Kill and some difficulties he was having on his WT forum. Brownie freely answered Gabe's questions. Gabe worked on it some more, and then posted that QK had a lot to offer (my paraphrase) and that he was going to incorporate it into his CRG courses. Brownie said "Wait a minute" and the situation went rapidly downhill from there.

Gabe has uniformly treated Brownie rather poorly and this poor treatment, IMO, :crying: reflects poorly on Gabe, not on Brownie. Brownie has stood up for himself, when many people would not. I had never thought of it before, but his Irishness would explain much about why Brownie has, on occasion, gone over the top. Would anyone expect less of an Irishman? :supergrin:

Please. I basically left these forums five years ago because of the daily school girl gossip about Suarez from Mr Brown and the other 2 stooges. 5 years later it's still the same coat tail hanging BS on a daily basis.

News flash: NOONE CARES.
Noone cares what happened a decade ago when Gabe was a cop. Noone cares that Mr Brown got his lil feelings hurt. I wonder if people would sign up for brownies classes if they knew all of the unprofessional dousche-bag
things he says on these forums now, today?
Suarez continues to perservere while the rest of you hang out over and ********** each other with old news. :upeyes:
Grow up. Move on. Its almost irrational stalker behavior.

brownie
04-17-2010, 16:56
Please. I basically left these forums five years ago because of the daily school girl gossip about Suarez from Mr Brown and the other 2 stooges. 5 years later it's still the same coat tail hanging BS on a daily basis.

News flash: NOONE CARES.
Noone cares what happened a decade ago when Gabe was a cop. Noone cares that Mr Brown got his lil feelings hurt. I wonder if people would sign up for brownies classes if they knew all of the unprofessional dousche-bag
things he says on these forums now, today?
Suarez continues to perservere while the rest of you hang out over and ********** each other with old news. :upeyes:
Grow up. Move on. Its almost irrational stalker behavior.

You'd actually be surprised at how many PM's I've gotten just from this thread thanking me for bringing his past to light, his being banned for registering under several names trying to market his courses using low life antics who didn't have a clue about the "history" here as well as elsewhere. The truth hurts, but it hurts him, not myself as I'm not the dirtbag who has the criminal record nor the repulsive reputation for self promotion and it's always a pleasure to reiterate the past history and cost him students. :supergrin:

As for my classes, they fill when I announce them, which only happens a few times a year in the private sector as I'm training police and military personnel more in the last few years.
If that's why you left, why are you back wasting your time to post if it's the same old thing?

You left once, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out this time :faint:

NMGlocker
04-17-2010, 18:04
Andy Stanford, Jeff Gonzales, James Yeager, Tom Givens, etc., etc.... the list of legitimate professional instructors that no longer participate in the GlockTalk T&T forum is telling...
But hey! Brownie is still here.
:upeyes:

brownie
04-17-2010, 18:48
Andy Stanford, Jeff Gonzales, James Yeager, Tom Givens, etc., etc.... the list of legitimate professional instructors that no longer participate in the GlockTalk T&T forum is telling...
But hey! Brownie is still here.
:upeyes:

Givens is still here, ads his wears/classes in the T+T section often enough.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1203903

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1203081 :rofl:

Lets look at the legitimate comment here NM. If I wasn't considered legit, old Mr. Suarez wouldn't have had the need to attempt to drag me through the mud on his reputation [ but of course that was before he got banned for all the alter-egos he registered under talking to himself against Erics previous warnings to knock it off ]. Don't you just love the history lessons :wavey:

People come and go on the forums all the time. Whether they post here now or not has no bearing whatsoever on the class of instructors posting here [ btw, you did catch the reply to you about my not making my living as an instructor didn't you? :upeyes: ] .

I find it interesting you didn't bother to address the question of integrity or why you'd expose your penchant for coming into a thread like this with nothing concrete to add to the discussion or questioning a members integrity based on the validity of the information he provided, but instead use subterfuge in an apparent attempt to connect myself with the disappearance of instructors mentioned with no supporting evidence [ which of course you can't provide as there is none ]. :dunno:

Brownie

rvrctyrngr
04-17-2010, 21:15
I wonder if people would sign up for brownies classes if they knew all of the unprofessional dousche-bag
things he says on these forums now, today?


FWIW, I've been here almost 6 years and have read all that has transpired here in the Brown/Suarez saga and quite a bit more elsewhere...Didn't take me long to figure out what was what.

I'll be attending Brownie's class next weekend...my fifth class with him in less than a year, and second QK class.

Personally, from a purely instructional stand-point, I think he's one of the most effective instructors in the game.

David Armstrong
04-18-2010, 13:39
News flash: NOONE CARES.
Noone cares what happened a decade ago when Gabe was a cop.
Given the discussions here and on other forums, I'd suggest quite a few people do care, particularly because much of the unethical behavior and such of the past still seems to go on today.

Mayhem like Me
04-18-2010, 19:24
Please. I basically left these forums five years ago because of the daily school girl gossip about Suarez from Mr Brown and the other 2 stooges. 5 years later it's still the same coat tail hanging BS on a daily basis.

News flash: NOONE CARES.
Noone cares what happened a decade ago when Gabe was a cop. Noone cares that Mr Brown got his lil feelings hurt. I wonder if people would sign up for brownies classes if they knew all of the unprofessional dousche-bag
things he says on these forums now, today?
Suarez continues to perservere while the rest of you hang out over and ********** each other with old news. :upeyes:
Grow up. Move on. Its almost irrational stalker behavior.

Don't get all Buthurt over it ,people that can and have done it.. don't use Suarez for anything but an example of what NOT to do...I've never been anyones stooge and Ethics do hold value to some peopel I happen to be one of those people.


Good to see Gabe has some Fanbois seems his Kool aid is almost as strong as Yeagers and the guys from FS...:upeyes: