sustained rate of fire 15 RPM? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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RUSH2112
03-01-2010, 10:40
I just read 12-15 rounds/minute is the max that the AR should be fired indefinately. Anything over 15 rounds/minute for a sustained period (VERY long I assume) could heat the barrel to a cook off point?

Really?! :wow:

That kinda sucks doesn't it?

NeverMore1701
03-01-2010, 11:00
Try firing any gun rapidly for long periods of time.

djegators
03-01-2010, 11:10
What is indefinitely? What is the length of the sustained period? 15rds a minute, is a round every four seconds...say that period is 30 minutes...well thats 450 rounds...lots of mag changes! I am guessing this more than just a mag dump they are talking about...

NeverMore1701
03-01-2010, 11:21
IIRC someone tested an M4 on full auto, pausing only to switch mags as quickly as possible. Did 400 something rounds before total failure. I've seen AKs being treated the same way, with the same results. I've seen M249 barrels ruined in short order by not having any trigger discipline, and it's actually meant to be used in the LMG role.

kabob983
03-01-2010, 11:33
Yeah, they're not meant to be continuously fired at high rate for a long period of time.

If the barrel it too hot to grab on and hold, stop shooting!! (kidding)...

djegators
03-01-2010, 11:43
Yeah, they're not meant to be continuously fired at high rate for a long period of time.

If the barrel it too hot to grab on and hold, stop shooting!! (kidding)...


Probably could get a rail mounted hot dog cooker for those long summer afternoons at the range...

RMTactical
03-01-2010, 11:57
It's not a machine gun, what do you expect?

There are some cool videos here of the M4 and M4A1 being pushed to their limits.

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/12/m4-and-m4a1-guns/

Realistically though, would you need to treat your weapon like that? Even in the military, something like shown in the videos would be extreme.

furioso2112
03-01-2010, 13:57
Other interesting applications would be mid-length, SS barrels, dissipators, SBRs, pistol ARs.

So where can I get a barrel and gas tube made out of diamonds? Maybe an oil-cooled barrel, or radiator attachments - finally, we have an application to make use of the 203 cutouts - now someone just has to invent a radiator that fits into the notches.

kabob983
03-01-2010, 14:28
Probably could get a rail mounted hot dog cooker for those long summer afternoons at the range...

You build it, I'll buy it!

RUSH2112
03-01-2010, 14:37
Apparently "sustained" fire is quite a bit longer than what I first assumed. It was the "15 rounds/minute that jumped out at me. At the range I don't think I've ever fired as low as 15 rounds/minute through ANY firearm.

I have places to go, things to do, people to see, lol.

GreyEclipse
03-01-2010, 15:55
Who has enough ammo AND loaded mags to accomplish that anyways?
And wth hasn't died after 500 continuous rounds in the belly?
Even if you were in a war zone you wouldn't have time to fire that many shots. Especially aimed shots. Not to mention that you'd probably die if you tried.

Spiffums
03-01-2010, 19:41
Who has enough ammo AND loaded mags to accomplish that anyways?
And wth hasn't died after 500 continuous rounds in the belly?
Even if you were in a war zone you wouldn't have time to fire that many shots. Especially aimed shots. Not to mention that you'd probably die if you tried.

What is the most common load out for a solider. 9 mags at the most 1 in the gun 8 in a chest rig? If that's it it would only add up to 270 till your tapped out.

GreyEclipse
03-01-2010, 21:21
What is the most common load out for a solider. 9 mags at the most 1 in the gun 8 in a chest rig? If that's it it would only add up to 270 till your tapped out.

Exactly. This is one of the reasons that auto fire is overrated.

AK_Stick
03-01-2010, 22:36
Exactly. This is one of the reasons that auto fire is overrated.


Automatic is over rated, till you need it, then nothing short of it, will suffice.

GreyEclipse
03-02-2010, 04:09
Automatic is over rated, till you need it, then nothing short of it, will suffice.

Firing in full auto is inaccurate is crap. Not to mention wasteful.
The only weapons that benefit from full auto are submachine guns and support weapons. Rifles rarely benefit from it unless in CQ.

There's very few reasons anyone would ever need it.
Therefore it is overrated.

I'm not disagreeing, just pointing out that it's use is very limited.

glock22357
03-02-2010, 04:34
Firing in full auto is inaccurate is crap. Not to mention wasteful.
The only weapons that benefit from full auto are submachine guns and support weapons. Rifles rarely benefit from it unless in CQ.

There's very few reasons anyone would ever need it.
Therefore it is overrated.

I'm not disagreeing, just pointing out that it's use is very limited.

My $.02 is to support the idea that it's completely over-rated...until you need in an up-close and personal situation. With our troops having done alot of house-to-house fighting in recent years, I'm surprised that more troops aren't issued select/full auto M4s.

It seems to me that full-auto can go along way in helping out the poor troop that stumbles upon 4 bad guys after kicking in a door.

GreyEclipse
03-02-2010, 05:10
My $.02 is to support the idea that it's completely over-rated...until you need in an up-close and personal situation. With our troops having done alot of house-to-house fighting in recent years, I'm surprised that more troops aren't issued select/full auto M4s.

It seems to me that full-auto can go along way in helping out the poor troop that stumbles upon 4 bad guys after kicking in a door.

I agree. Like I said, close quaters combat is the only time it's really useful.
Close quaters and suppressive support fire.
Other than that it has no real good tactical purpose.
But in the scenario that you've given.

Troops going house-to-house, given fully auto weapons would be pretty dangerous to engage enemies with because of the civilians in a given area.
Now if there were no civies in that area then break out the auto.
But there's really no way to tell if there's going to be civilians in a given area.

I respect everyone's opinion. Just don't COMPLETELY agree.

AK_Stick
03-02-2010, 20:56
I agree. Like I said, close quaters combat is the only time it's really useful.
Close quaters and suppressive support fire.
Other than that it has no real good tactical purpose.
But in the scenario that you've given.

Troops going house-to-house, given fully auto weapons would be pretty dangerous to engage enemies with because of the civilians in a given area.
Now if there were no civies in that area then break out the auto.
But there's really no way to tell if there's going to be civilians in a given area.

I respect everyone's opinion. Just don't COMPLETELY agree.

full auto wouldn't really be any more dangerous than anything else to civilians in the area.

You can shoot short controlled bursts with auto, just takes some practice.


FA is also very nice when you're being attacked by a numerically superior force. The ability to put down a literal wall of lead is sometimes a very nice thing.

RMTactical
03-02-2010, 21:10
SEALs often use full auto against superior numbers in order to create the illusion that they are a larger force than they are.

Also, if you believe that the side that throws the most lead wins, full auto ain't bad to have.

It'd be nice to have. In the military, there are times where it is very useful.

As a single rifleman in a civilian setting, there aren't many times it would be needed. That doesn't mean I believe it should be regulated the way it currently is... but there's nothing I can do more to change that at this moment unfortunately.

HAIL CAESAR
03-02-2010, 21:23
The ability to put down a literal wall of lead is sometimes a very nice thing.

:wavey:

Brucev
03-02-2010, 21:50
FA is good. When you need to go fast, you need to be able to go fast. If you can't go fast and die, does it matter that you didn't blow your ammo load at the enemy? If bean counters had their way, you end up with a McNamara nightmare. Give everyone a good solid rifle that will shoot wet or dry, sandy or muddy. Give them a rifle that will fire single or fast. Forget the burst switch... just another bean counter control. Give them plenty of ammo and solid resupply and let them use their weapons to kill the enemy. If they shoot off a lot of ammo and cook off a few barrels, so what. Equipment is cheap. Men are not cheap. More equipment can be found. Men are harder to find. JMHO. Sincerely. Brucev.

GreyEclipse
03-03-2010, 01:02
SEALs often use full auto against superior numbers in order to create the illusion that they are a larger force than they are.

Also, if you believe that the side that throws the most lead wins, full auto ain't bad to have.

It'd be nice to have. In the military, there are times where it is very useful.

As a single rifleman in a civilian setting, there aren't many times it would be needed. That doesn't mean I believe it should be regulated the way it currently is... but there's nothing I can do more to change that at this moment unfortunately.

Interesting but that's similar to support fire.
But yeah, I do agree with you.

I agree with FA being useful but just not as practical as most think.
Hollywood and video games have really screwed the FA out of proportion.
They've screwed guns in general. Matter of fact, reality in general.
But anyways...continue this discussion.
I'll be on my way since most don't agree with me, surprisingly.

kirgi08
03-03-2010, 02:40
tagged.

MrMurphy
03-03-2010, 15:02
While I was in if I needed full auto, we had belt feds (most of the time, meaning "me" as the gunner). Carrying an M4 I was fine with semi, had little use for burst but if i was ever down to long string of expletive deleteds time ie "we're all gonna die" 3,000 man Chinese human wave attacks, i'd rather have full auto as an option than burst.

Trained troops don't use auto often, but when they do, they need REAL full auto, not a burst setting that can randomly deliver, 1, 2, or 3 rounds per pull (it's NOT 3 every time).

Rapid aimed semi is much more efficient than auto, but there are still times where flipping the gun to Group Therapy Setting is nice.

kabob983
03-03-2010, 15:30
Rapid aimed semi is much more efficient than auto, but there are still times where flipping the gun to Group Therapy Setting is nice.

Seriously, Custer's last stand would have turned out a weeeee bit different if they had the happy switch option.

billwade
03-03-2010, 16:32
I just read 12-15 rounds/minute is the max that the AR should be fired indefinately. Anything over 15 rounds/minute for a sustained period (VERY long I assume) could heat the barrel to a cook off point?

Really?! :wow:

That kinda sucks doesn't it?

When I was in the Marines we were taught 45rds a minute was sustained fire and 90rds a minute was rapid fire. But like it was already stated you don't have that much ammo on you. we were only issued 7 mags.

Delon
03-04-2010, 09:49
There is a video of Noveske doing like a 300 round (3 x 100 rounds mags) dump on full auto. 1 trigger pull per mag, only pausing long enough to change mags.

Zero failures. Not sure I would touch the barrel afterwards, but that is fairly impressive from a m4.

Update,

Here is the video, this is out of a SBR m4, 10.5 inch barrel

http://www.noveske.com/videos/shot3.wmv

Norcal911
03-04-2010, 10:12
I believe also that FA should not be regulated as it is, but I also think FA is nearly useless on a light rifle. Maybe if you needed to break contact or in an emergency but there are few situations that justify sending everything you've got vs well aimed shots. Now a sub gun or LMG are very different. Our troops are well trained but your standard issue infantry troop is probably not the highly skilled operator who is capable of effectively wielding an M4 in 3 shot burst or FA in a CQB environment. They are good but this is a very complex skill set. Not being 100% accountable for your rounds in a CQB environment can quickly lead to blue on blue casualties-Norcal911

Apocalypse_Now
03-04-2010, 10:54
IIRC someone tested an M4 on full auto, pausing only to switch mags as quickly as possible. Did 400 something rounds before total failure. I've seen AKs being treated the same way, with the same results. I've seen M249 barrels ruined in short order by not having any trigger discipline, and it's actually meant to be used in the LMG role.

AK47 seems GTG with 300 rounds, except the wood foregrip catches fire

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hmrq4ZoakMo

Achped
03-04-2010, 11:37
It's not a machine gun, what do you expect?

There are some cool videos here of the M4 and M4A1 being pushed to their limits.

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/12/m4-and-m4a1-guns/

Realistically though, would you need to treat your weapon like that? Even in the military, something like shown in the videos would be extreme.

This video pissed me off, the first one. Why does that guy suck so horribly at changing mags? I can change mags faster than that in full PPE in 120 degree heat while I'm dehydrated. I was getting so frustrated looking that that. Push the damn button, release the mag, insert new mag, rack bolt. Whats all this fumbling bs...

MrMurphy
03-04-2010, 14:47
Custer had the happy switch option.

He left his Gatlings behind cause they "slowed him down".

RMTactical
03-04-2010, 18:19
This video pissed me off, the first one. Why does that guy suck so horribly at changing mags? I can change mags faster than that in full PPE in 120 degree heat while I'm dehydrated. I was getting so frustrated looking that that. Push the damn button, release the mag, insert new mag, rack bolt. Whats all this fumbling bs...

Not sure. I would be lying if I said I didn't feel like I could have done a better job too though.

CatsMeow
03-04-2010, 20:03
In his book "To Hell and Back", Audie Murphy recalled an incident with a German colonel who barricaded himself, he borrowed a Thompson, stuck the muzzle in and swept the room on auto till he heard the thump of a body falling. Colonel was still alive and fighting till Murphy relieved him of his Luger.

A bit OT, but here's a photo I took of a newish and unissued M4:
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd37/CatsMeow_07/Clark%20Balloon%20Festival/IMG_4375.jpg

Achped
03-04-2010, 20:08
catsmeow, where did you see that? I have never seen a Colt M16/M4 platform. Everything these days is FN.

RMTactical
03-04-2010, 20:22
Colt holds the contract for the M4. FN holds the contract for M16's.

HAIL CAESAR
03-04-2010, 20:55
Colt holds the contract for the M4. FN holds the contract for M16's.

RM, maybe you know this because I didn't and got spanked for it.
What contracts does Sabre have and how many rifles to whom?

Alaskapopo
03-04-2010, 21:07
I just read 12-15 rounds/minute is the max that the AR should be fired indefinately. Anything over 15 rounds/minute for a sustained period (VERY long I assume) could heat the barrel to a cook off point?

Really?! :wow:

That kinda sucks doesn't it?

No it does not suck because you will never need to fire at a rate greater than that. Most gun fights and battles will not have you in a long fire fight shooting hundreds of rounds an hour.
Pat

HAIL CAESAR
03-04-2010, 21:09
No it does not suck because you will never need to fire at a rate greater than that. Most gun fights and battles will not have you in a long fire fight shooting hundreds of rounds an hour.
Pat

There you is!!!:wavey:

Boy, you've missed A LOT of BS lately.

Alaskapopo
03-04-2010, 21:14
There you is!!!:wavey:

Boy, you've missed A LOT of BS lately.

Been busy. Your right I have missed a lot it looks like after scanning the threads.
Pat

HAIL CAESAR
03-04-2010, 21:37
Been busy. Your right I have missed a lot it looks like after scanning the threads.
Pat

I'll try to summarize for you and condense it.

1. Colt's are junk.

2. Shooting a AR ( of any caliber) inside your home will leave you bind, deaf, dumb, and kill every man,woman, child, and beast within a 2 mile circumference.

3. Colt's are junk.

4. The only good AR is one that the upper and lower are so tight that you have to use a dead blow hammer while sitting on them to get them to close. If they don't jam shut under extreme pressure you must place a plastic wedgie in it so it will become that tight.

5. Colt's are junk.

6. You must invite all house guest into your bedroom. Upon entering your personal bedroom your guests will see an AR-15 and run out into the streets screaming like the actors from the Alfred Hitchcock film "The Birds".

7. Colt's are junk.

8. AR-15's are Assault Rifles.

9. If you don't own a Noveske you are a buffoon and wasted your money on anything else.

10. Colt's are junk.

Alaskapopo
03-04-2010, 22:42
I'll try to summarize for you and condense it.

1. Colt's are junk.

2. Shooting a AR ( of any caliber) inside your home will leave you bind, deaf, dumb, and kill every man,woman, child, and beast within a 2 mile circumference.

3. Colt's are junk.

4. The only good AR is one that the upper and lower are so tight that you have to use a dead blow hammer while sitting on them to get them to close. If they don't jam shut under extreme pressure you must place a plastic wedgie in it so it will become that tight.

5. Colt's are junk.

6. You must invite all house guest into your bedroom. Upon entering your personal bedroom your guests will see an AR-15 and run out into the streets screaming like the actors from the Alfred Hitchcock film "The Birds".

7. Colt's are junk.

8. AR-15's are Assault Rifles.

9. If you don't own a Noveske you are a buffoon and wasted your money on anything else.

10. Colt's are junk.


Glad I missed it. Stupidty raises my blood pressure.
pat

CatsMeow
03-04-2010, 23:42
catsmeow, where did you see that? I have never seen a Colt M16/M4 platform. Everything these days is FN.

This particular M4 was on display at the Philippine Army Scout Rangers area at the Balloon Festival at the old Clark Airbase in the Philippines. Military assistance from Uncle Sam, likely,:cool: special units of the PA are issued Colt M4s, among others, unlike the rest which are issued M16A1s.

In fact, most US-made M16A1s are Colts, a few I've seen here are H&Rs and GM Hydramatics, with at least one oddity I saw with a heavy barrel and Bren-style conical flash hider:dunno:. Philippine-made M16A1s are "Elisco" brand made under license from Colt, on Colt-supplied machinery with Colt-trained technicians. There are also some from Charter Arms of Singapore.

BTW the third position in my photo, hidden by the selector, is BURST.

Apocalypse_Now
03-05-2010, 11:44
Custer had the happy switch option.

He left his Gatlings behind cause they "slowed him down".

Yep, in the wagons. Custer was in a hurry because he feared further settler deaths from injun attacks, and wanted to intercept and destroy

RMTactical
03-05-2010, 11:58
RM, maybe you know this because I didn't and got spanked for it.
What contracts does Sabre have and how many rifles to whom?

They got a contract for something like 3000-4000 M16A3's for the USN. It was originally given to Bushmaster and then somehow they lost it and Sabre got it. That said, FN still holds the primary contract for providing M16's for the military. Not sure why Sabre got this contract for some rifles. Maybe FN is at full capacity and couldn't provide the extra rifles for the USN in a timely manner.

kirgi08
03-05-2010, 13:52
Good info.'08.

AK_Stick
03-05-2010, 19:26
Yep, in the wagons. Custer was in a hurry because he feared further settler deaths from injun attacks, and wanted to intercept and destroy



Or because he was a reckless, POS commander, who wanted to look good, instead of lookingout for the welfare of his soldiers.

AK_Stick
03-05-2010, 19:27
They got a contract for something like 3000-4000 M16A3's for the USN. It was originally given to Bushmaster and then somehow they lost it and Sabre got it. That said, FN still holds the primary contract for providing M16's for the military. Not sure why Sabre got this contract for some rifles. Maybe FN is at full capacity and couldn't provide the extra rifles for the USN in a timely manner.


IIRC, that contract came down right as the Army and Marines were switching all the units who weren't getting M-4's over to the new A3 and A-4 rifles.

HAIL CAESAR
03-05-2010, 19:41
They got a contract for something like 3000-4000 M16A3's for the USN. It was originally given to Bushmaster and then somehow they lost it and Sabre got it. That said, FN still holds the primary contract for providing M16's for the military. Not sure why Sabre got this contract for some rifles. Maybe FN is at full capacity and couldn't provide the extra rifles for the USN in a timely manner.

IIRC, that contract came down right as the Army and Marines were switching all the units who weren't getting M-4's over to the new A3 and A-4 rifles.

Thanks fellas!!

gunreviewonmyspace
03-07-2010, 10:20
I don't think that is true. I have fired thousands upon thousands for rds through M4s and ARs. Yeah, I have had the barrells hot enough to burn the skin right off a zombie! But, I don't think you could actually melt a chrome lined barrel unless you continually fired at about 400rpm for several minutes. In colts, FNs, and an armailite I have put hundreds of rds in just a minute or two without any problems.

gunreviewonmyspace
03-07-2010, 10:24
So wait a minute, are you saying Colt's are junk? Funny, I never had a problem with my issued rifle,.......... that was a colt.... hmmmmm

RMTactical
03-07-2010, 18:57
I don't think that is true. I have fired thousands upon thousands for rds through M4s and ARs. Yeah, I have had the barrells hot enough to burn the skin right off a zombie! But, I don't think you could actually melt a chrome lined barrel unless you continually fired at about 400rpm for several minutes. In colts, FNs, and an armailite I have put hundreds of rds in just a minute or two without any problems.

If you watch the videos in the link I posted earlier you would see that 18 consecutive mags through an M4 at full auto can cause catastrophic failure of the barrel.

CatsMeow
03-07-2010, 21:46
Even if you do have a happy switch, having to buy each round, as well as the barrel, out of your not-so-deep pocket kinda takes the fun out of it...:supergrin: