Why the need for speed? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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SimonovsDog
03-05-2010, 08:25
Since I started reloading about 4 months ago, I noticed my 10mm loads that clock around 1000-1100fps are extremely accurate. The hotter/faster the load, the less accurate. I would much rather hit the target than break any speed records. Is there really any advantages in a 1600fps load?

87'vette
03-05-2010, 08:52
My hot loads are just as accurate as my plinking loads. Why speed? 'cause it's a 10mm!!! If your happy with slower projectiles, shoot .40 short and weak. :whistling:
Maybe you are anticipating the recoil on your hotter loads? Point of impact may change? Type of powder? Bullet weight? Dunno. Maybe someone with more knowledge on the subject will chime in. :supergrin:

Gunnuts10mm
03-05-2010, 09:40
Muzzle energy is the kinetic energy of a bullet as it is expelled from the muzzle of a firearm. It is often used as a rough indication of the destructive potential of a given firearm or load. The heavier the bullet and the faster it moves, the higher its muzzle energy and the more damage it will do.

Simply....

Faster means more woopasski. :supergrin:

Meathead9
03-05-2010, 11:36
My take is... why even bother having a 10mm, if you're only going to shoot it at .40S&W velocities? The whole point of shooting 10mm, is that you can safely push the same projectile significantly faster than the .40S&W cartridge.

SimonovsDog
03-05-2010, 21:44
Thanks for the enlightenment. I guess I should have specified that I'm loading for general target practice. I realize the 10mm is a powerhouse round. That's why I like it. However, if I'm just plinking I don't see the necessity in warp speed.

Meathead9
03-06-2010, 10:30
Thanks for the enlightenment. I guess I should have specified that I'm loading for general target practice. I realize the 10mm is a powerhouse round. That's why I like it. However, if I'm just plinking I don't see the necessity in warp speed.

You got questions, we got answers...

Just like you don't see the need for "warp speed" plinking rounds, guys like me don't see the point in "plinking" with a 10mm. I use my G20SF (soon to be G20L) for hunting/woods defense and long range target shooting. I want to know that I can consistently put hot rounds in the 10 ring. If I practice with weak loads, and hunt with full power loads, chances are the results aren't going to be acceptable to me. This is also the reason I put a lot of RA45TP through my Carry/HD guns, as much as I can afford to anyway. In the event that I have to use them for what they are designed for, I will know exactly what to expect when I pull the trigger. There are plenty of shooters that think like you, and plenty that think like me. I was just trying to explain to you why I prefer to shoot my 10mm at it's full potential.

Kegs
03-13-2010, 09:36
My take is... why even bother having a 10mm, if you're only going to shoot it at .40S&W velocities? The whole point of shooting 10mm, is that you can safely push the same projectile significantly faster than the .40S&W cartridge.

Answer to the question: Because if you want a high precision round, you can load to at or near .40 s&w velocities and get there. If you want a wallop round for hunting, you can create (or purchase) one of those as well.

I have just started reloading 10mm, and can tell you that I experienced the same thing the o.p. did with 155gr. XTPs. Guessing that 1150 fps +/- is where I'm at out of the G29 w/11.2g of Blue dot, but it's got very good precision. Tried it out at 12.0g and found a large spread. My sample was small, so there could be more testing done on this, but I have limited time and money, so I'm going to continue loading 11.2g for this load.

Also: I believe this to be a fine self defense round, so that's what I'm carrying now.

Since I purchased the pistol, I have been carrying double tap's 200gr. Montana gold rounds. I have found that this round has acceptable precision. I can hit at 50y with this round and it has enough wallop for deer hunting (unlike my target/self defense rounds do).

However, I am concerned a tad that it has excessive penetration on soft bodies, so although there could be an advantage to that attribute, there are potentially negative consequences (unintended targets, etc.) considering the multiple scenarios possible in a self defense role.

The whole point in my mind with the 10mm is having a firearm/cartridge that can adapt to variable needs...and yes, it is fun to shoot. Also, it doesn't have that strange recoil that a .40 has - and it sounds like a .44 mag when it goes off. :supergrin:

Meathead9
03-13-2010, 15:13
So the 10mm is only a "precision round" at .40 velocities?

I still don't see the benefit of occasionally packing a "wallop", if you can't hit your intended target because you are only accurate with weak loads. I wouldn't buy a G32, and load it down to 9mm velocities because I wasn't accurate shooting full power loads. If that were the case, I would buy a G19. The versatility of the round is gone if I can't shoot it accurately at full power.

I don't load my .45's down to 700fps, or my .357mag's down to 900fps either...

I don't use my 10mm's for HD/CC. I have my .45's for that. I carry DT 200gr WFNGC's for hunting/woods defense, and load 135/155/165/180gr for target shooting. I also put 10-20 rounds of the DT stuff before I go hunting, to make sure I'm still good to go.

Maybe you guys should try different bullet weights, or powders. I am more accurate with hot 180's and 165's, than I am with the lighter bullets. Don't give up on shooting a true 10mm, just keep trying new loads until you find one that suits you and your gun.

Kegs
03-18-2010, 21:33
So the 10mm is only a "precision round" at .40 velocities?

The "only" portion has been conveniently added by you.

I still don't see the benefit of occasionally packing a "wallop", if you can't hit your intended target because you are only accurate with weak loads.

Accuracy and precision are not the same thing meathead. Accuracy is hitting your target - not a problem for the "wallop" loads when the target is 8" or smaller at 50 yards (the precision of those rounds are better than that). The "wallop" loads do not have the type of precision you want when you are trying to hone the smallest groups possible out of your pistol however. Sometimes, it is preferable to have a load that shows very high levels of precision over energy (the "wallop" so to speak).


I wouldn't buy a G32, and load it down to 9mm velocities because I wasn't accurate shooting full power loads. If that were the case, I would buy a G19. The versatility of the round is gone if I can't shoot it accurately at full power.

Accuracy = mean shots centered around the target
Precision = error around the mean.

You are using the terms interchangeably when in fact, they are two separate terms. You're not alone. Even the best gun writers are ignorant to this distinction. The difference between you and them however, is that you aren't anymore. :cool:

I don't load my .45's down to 700fps, or my .357mag's down to 900fps either...

That's because you're not a competition shooter who requires a higher level of precision than you will get out of the max loads.

I don't use my 10mm's for HD/CC. I have my .45's for that. I carry DT 200gr WFNGC's for hunting/woods defense, and load 135/155/165/180gr for target shooting. I also put 10-20 rounds of the DT stuff before I go hunting, to make sure I'm still good to go.

Good for you.

Maybe you guys should try different bullet weights, or powders. I am more accurate with hot 180's and 165's, than I am with the lighter bullets. Don't give up on shooting a true 10mm, just keep trying new loads until you find one that suits you and your gun.

There is nothing wrong with loading a round at less than max (or beyond max) loads. Apparently it bothers you. I'm not sure why...

Like I said, it is hard to get a load much hotter than Double Tap's 200 grain XTP (now 180 grain Montana Gold?) load, and that load shoots fine out of my G29. I'll reserve that one for hunting though.

The real beauty of the 10mm cartridge is that it is the only auto cartridge that is chambered in a compact pistol and can do double duty between concealed carry/personal defense + meeting Colorado's elk handgun hunting requirement of 550 ft.lbs. @ 50 yards (the stock G29 won't meet this but it will with an aftermarket barrel). E.G. it's enough gun.

For the record, my choice in bullets would be a 135 grain or lighter full metal jacket, the 190 grain sierra fmj bullet or the 165 grain Barnes X bullet and 200 grain Hornady XTP bullet.

If only one, the 200g XTP would be my choice as the ballistic coefficient is among the highest and one obtains the highest energy out of this cartridge with a 200g bullet. The problem is, they aren't in stock anywhere and Hornady only loads them periodically. The barnes X bullet is expensive, and I can't seem to be able to find the other two around either. The 155 and 180 xtps I can find sometimes, and the last time I was reloading, the 155 was the only bullet available to me, so THERE is the answer on why I didn't try the others! :supergrin:

MinervaDoe
03-19-2010, 13:22
So the 10mm is only a "precision round" at .40 velocities?
Your statement is wrong on so many levels.
You will exceed .40 S&W's maximum velocity with any of the 10 mm's most accurate loads. But, the .40 S&W frequently finds its most accurate loads at much lower velocities.
Examples:
Lyman 49th edition Reloading manual states the following are the most accurate loads for each respective cartridge
A 190 grain 10 mm JHP most accurate loading at 1168 fps
A 190 grain .40 S&W FP most accurate loading at 870 fps - (this is a maximum load for a .40 S&W FP)

A 150 grain 10 mm JHP most accurate loading at 1292 fps
A 150 grain .40 S&W JHP most accurate loading at 799 fps

A .40 S&W max load for a 150 grain JHP only goes 1054 fps.

The 10 mm finds its best accuracy at velocities the .40 S&W can only dream of attaining. You should grab a reloading manual which notes the most accurate loads and compare the .40 and the 10mm. You may find it enlightening.

Meathead9
03-19-2010, 13:39
You guys are missing the point...

The OP seemed to be bothered by FULL POWER LOADS. I explained why I am not.

The OP stated that he is accuarate with 1000-1100fps loads. I have subsonic 180gr Ranger .40's that run 1015fps.

I clearly hit a nerve with you guys, I didn't realize fellow 10mm shooters were so sensitive.

Maybe you should go back and read the first post, then read my responses, then process the whole conversation, then realize you missed the point.

Beware Owner
03-19-2010, 13:50
When I test reloads, I see that as I go up in powder weight, the groups open up and close. Now, depending on your powder of choice, those closed groups could be either at two or three different points of your powder weight range. I'd say that it depends on which powder you're using before I can say that slower is generally better than not.

Kegs
03-19-2010, 15:53
Your statement is wrong on so many levels.
You will exceed .40 S&W's maximum velocity with any of the 10 mm's most accurate loads. But, the .40 S&W frequently finds its most accurate loads at much lower velocities.

Bingo!

(except that you continue to perpetuate the incorrect use of the term "accurate" - along with everyone else in the world of firearm use).

Kegs
03-19-2010, 16:01
When I test reloads, I see that as I go up in powder weight, the groups open up and close.

It is true that the precision is inconsistent due (primarily) to the changing the harmonic vibration of the bullet. Get it in a sweet spot as high as you can get it and don't muck with it further for precision.


Now, depending on your powder of choice, those closed groups could be either at two or three different points of your powder weight range. I'd say that it depends on which powder you're using before I can say that slower is generally better than not.

This is the beauty of testing various loads with the use of a ransom rest. Of course, the ransom rest only takes the shooter out of the equation and that may not always be a good thing, but it will surely tell you a lot about what amount of powder makes the load that has the highest level of precision.

In MOST cases, it is NOT the max load.

MinervaDoe
03-19-2010, 19:29
(except that you continue to perpetuate the incorrect use of the term "accurate" - along with everyone else in the world of firearm use).
??? Please explain ??? :dunno:

MinervaDoe
03-19-2010, 19:32
Maybe you should go back and read the first post, then read my responses, then process the whole conversation, then realize you missed the point.

He said:
Is there really any advantages in a 1600fps load?
You said:
So the 10mm is only a "precision round" at .40 velocities?
I got his point. I was just correcting your misinformation.

Now you're off topic and you are like the pot calling the kettle black.

Meathead9
03-19-2010, 21:11
I'll say it again, s-l-o-w-e-r, and louder just for you...

READ ALL OF THE POSTS!

kegs said something to the efect of, "if you want a high precision round, you can load to at or near .40 s&w velocities and get there."

Then I posted:

So the 10mm is only a "precision round" at .40 velocities?

IT WAS A QUESTION, NOT A STATEMENT as you described it as you got on your soap box and completely derailed the thread.

I'm done with you clowns. Instead of addressing the original post, you attack people on the exact definition of accuracy vs precision. Who gives a flying ****? Really? Precision = error around the mean??? You must really like to hear yourself talk saying crap like that.

And for the record, I NEVER even mentioned "precision" until kegs brought it up. All I talked about was accuracy...

MinervaDoe
03-19-2010, 22:28
I'm done with you clowns.
So you'll be leaving now? I guess there is no need to put you on my ignore list.

... and FOR THE RECORD, I find you plenty slow enough ....

Meathead9
03-20-2010, 08:08
Yes, that would be the adult thing to do. Bury your head in the sand anytime someone calls you out for being wrong. Don't address what I said, just hit that ignore button, and you'll never ever ever be wrong again. It must be nice living in a world like that...

Beware Owner
03-20-2010, 11:56
Come on, peeps, don't mess up a perfectly good thread. :wavey:

It is true that the precision is inconsistent due (primarily) to the changing the harmonic vibration of the bullet. Get it in a sweet spot as high as you can get it and don't muck with it further for precision.

And that change in the harmonic vibration is due to that, simply put, no two powder charges will burn the same. There can be a sweet spot, and there can be a sweeter spot, we can really never tell if it will be higher or lower.

This is the beauty of testing various loads with the use of a ransom rest. Of course, the ransom rest only takes the shooter out of the equation and that may not always be a good thing, but it will surely tell you a lot about what amount of powder makes the load that has the highest level of precision.

In MOST cases, it is NOT the max load.

If I'm testing for precision loads, I can't see another way to test other than the ransom rest. If I want to test my accuracy, then I remove the rest from the equation. I've heard many rifle loaders say that the max load usually is not the most precise, as you say.

MinervaDoe
03-20-2010, 12:35
Come on, peeps, don't mess up a perfectly good thread. :wavey:
+1
Is there really any advantages in a 1600fps load?
I'm looking at a Sierra bullets catalog, which lists the fastest speed for a 10mm 135 grain bullet as going 1,300 fps. It has energy of 507 in ft. lbs.

Where as they list the fastest 190 grain 10mm load as going 1050 fps and has energy of 465 ft. lbs.

To get to your 1,600 fps load, I'm afraid we need to change to a different cartridge.

Still, for 10mm, you can see that the little 135 grain bullet has more energy than the larger 190 grain bullet.

MakeMineA10mm
03-20-2010, 22:15
Thanks for the enlightenment. I guess I should have specified that I'm loading for general target practice. I realize the 10mm is a powerhouse round. That's why I like it. However, if I'm just plinking I don't see the necessity in warp speed.

Nothing wrong with that thinking. I do something that is about half-way where you're at. I like my plinking loads to run around 1100fps or so. This is not max-power, but it's enough to give me practice / keep me familiarized with the recoil impulse of the 10mm. It's also a very safe zone from reloading standpoint - can shoot them in any pistol. In other words, not a customized load to maximize the potential of the round in a certain barrel. This can be bothersome when you own multiple 10mm pistols, as I do. Plinking ammo can all go into an ammo can and it can be shot through any 10mm I own. Custom super-power 10mm ammo tuned for a particular barrel must be segregated and carefully marked as such... Another good reason for a slightly lighter plinking load.

JimBobTX
03-21-2010, 07:40
I love loading multiple loads with the 10 and trying them in my G20SF and Razorback...but I still like shooting the .40 for a different type of recoil and muzzle blast from my M&P 40c and Kahr P40. The little guns can be a hand full...while the big guns are smooth as butter..most of the time. Thanks for the info guys.

MinervaDoe
03-21-2010, 10:56
I love loading multiple loads with the 10 and trying them in my G20SF and Razorback...but I still like shooting the .40 for a different type of recoil and muzzle blast from my M&P 40c and Kahr P40. The little guns can be a hand full...while the big guns are smooth as butter..most of the time. Thanks for the info guys.
Controllability (is that a real word)? That is among the several reasons that I want to get a .40 conversion barrel for my Glock 20. The other reasons being ammo availability and possible a way to cure the Glock bulge.

SimonovsDog
03-27-2010, 21:46
I have been reading up on the 10mm off this forum, and I can't find anything that says the 10mm is suppose to be an ultra-hot round. The original 10mm designed by Dornaus & Dixon in 1983 was a 200gr bullet pushed at 1200fps. Where exacatly is it written the 10mm is supposed to be pushed up to 1600fps? I've heard comments many times that I should load my 10mm up to it's "potential!" As far as I know, only guns made for the American market were ever chambered for the 10mm. With that said, SAAMI specifies that the max pressure for the 10mm is 37,500psi, yet I keep hearing the "European" 10mm is so much hotter. Mind you, I've never actually read this info except on internet forums. So where is this wealth of information really coming from?

Glock-it-to-me
03-27-2010, 22:17
Big bangs/muzzle flash are fun at indoor ranges.:cool:

Maine1
03-27-2010, 22:42
the 1600fps loads are for the lighter 135gr bullets. I do not find a bug use for those right now. the lightest i load right now is 155. those are 1350 or so, IIRC.

I like my 180 carry load (XTP) to be a solid 1250, to give me punch and a flat tragjectory, plus its not max, so i have a little wiggle room.

200 gr XTP's, i have not been able to get a real 1200 out of those..yet. I'd like to, as it would become my EDC load. i had some at 1150 or so, and they were very flat shooting.

I like shooting the warmer loads out of my 10, but have not made many loads i would call nuclear, I also do not make really soft load. I want a good reliable load that uses the 10's potential.

Speed= flat tragectory, effect on target, and effect over distance.

I honestly have not worried about accuraccy too mch, all my loads seem pretty good, with the real variable being ME.

I like the 40 conversion, as it makes that big pistol cheap to shoot, plus even a hot 40 feels like a 9mm. I do not worry as much about collecting brass, either!

hill billy
03-27-2010, 22:51
+1

I'm looking at a Sierra bullets catalog, which lists the fastest speed for a 10mm 135 grain bullet as going 1,300 fps. It has energy of 507 in ft. lbs.

Where as they list the fastest 190 grain 10mm load as going 1050 fps and has energy of 465 ft. lbs.

To get to your 1,600 fps load, I'm afraid we need to change to a different cartridge.

Still, for 10mm, you can see that the little 135 grain bullet has more energy than the larger 190 grain bullet.

Why I'm wading into this I have no idea but..

The Sierra manual may indeed say that but really, getting up over 1300 with a 180 is simple and not really over max. Alliant lists a max of 11.0 gr of Blue dot for 1295fps (as I recall) so to up .2 grains or so is no big feat. A 135gr will reliably go up to 1500 FPS.

All that said, I like shooting hot stuff and I load too much to have to try and keep it all separated. I find the max that I feel comfortable shooting and then drop down a bit and call that my safe working limit. The 10mm is meant to be a fireball and I have some very accurate full power loads. I'm just an ignorant redneck who really doesn't mind the difference between accuracy and precision, but my junk hits the x ring and that's all I care about.

MinervaDoe
03-27-2010, 23:15
Why I'm wading into this I have no idea but..

... cuz you are a nice guy and I was wrong .... :supergrin: I was looking at a very conservative catalog.

Okay, so I got off my pitard and pulled out "The Complete Reloading Manual for the 10mm" (a compilation of a lot of the major manuals).
Yup, you're right ...

the IMR manual lists a load for a 135 grain bullet using Hi Skor 800-x that goes 1670 fps

it also lists a load for a 180 grain bullet using Hi Skor 800-x that goes 1320 fps

Alliant lists a load for a 135 grain bullet using Blue Dot that goes 1530 fps

Alliant also lists a load for a 180 grain bullet using Blue Dot that goes 1220 fps

-Both Alliant loads are more conservative than the Blue Dot load that you listed.

Nosler has a load for a 135 grain bullet using blue dot which goes 1459 fps

:embarassed::soap::okie::wedgie: My bad!!

hill billy
03-27-2010, 23:24
... cuz you are a nice guy and I was wrong .... :supergrin: I was looking at a very conservative catalog.

Okay, so I got off my pitard and pulled out "The Complete Reloading Manual for the 10mm" (a compilation of a lot of the major manuals).
Yup, you're right ...

Eh, I was going by memory having not loaded a 135 in some time. We're all wrong sometime, the trick is to not exceed your time limit. :tongueout: I'll swing over to Alliant's website and have a peek.

hill billy
03-27-2010, 23:28
Screen cap from Alliant's site

194224

MinervaDoe
03-27-2010, 23:35
Eh, I was going by memory having not loaded a 135 in some time. We're all wrong sometime, the trick is to not exceed your time limit. :tongueout: I'll swing over to Alliant's website and have a peek.
:faint:I think I've exceeded my time limit.

I'm tired... I'm going home now...

HOV
03-30-2010, 12:08
I got into 10mm because of its flexibility. It can be a lion or a *****cat, so anywhere in between is just fine with me.

I'm still learning the round but have found that my mid-power hand loads are doing very well so far in terms of accuracy. And even those mid-power loads are well beyond anything possible with a .40S&W. I love the idea of using these very accurate, controllable rounds that still go at higher velocity than .40S&W for personal defense. Plus loading at less than max saves powder.

I also love my KKM .40S&W conversion barrel. It actually got me more into .40S&W than I had been for a long time. It really does feel like 9mm coming out of the big 10.

Kegs
04-17-2010, 07:58
Nuclear: ...and only for trained professionals. Don't try this (http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=16968&KW=10mm&PN=0&TPN=1) at home kids.

I really want to bust some milk jugs with something like these.

Retired Squid
04-19-2010, 06:56
My G29 is scary accurate with my Nosler 135 grain tripping along on the 1600/1650 fps side. I have not tried any in the G20 as yet, and don't know if I will try any in the 610-3 6.5" but the T/C 10" G2 barrel should be interesting. My hot 180 XTP at about 1300 connected bullet holes at 25 yards with the G2 just shooting off my range bag after forgetting my pistol rest.


Not sure but the 135 seems to have flatter flight path then a 22 WMR, but I'm probably wrong.

_The_Shadow
04-19-2010, 13:32
KEGS, just be careful, Mike was using a 6" KKM barrel with his setup, I can say what Chrono he uses but some maybe more generous than others.

Recipies might be the same...but slight differences in componets, guns, barrels etc can have huge differences in results!

Best of luck!

Retired Squid
04-19-2010, 14:32
KEGS, just be careful, Mike was using a 6" KKM barrel with his setup, I can say what Chrono he uses but some maybe more generous than others.

Recipies might be the same...but slight differences in componets, guns, barrels etc can have huge differences in results!

Best of luck!Don't forget bullet seated depth and its affect. That's what I an looking forward to playing with on the 10" G2 Contender barrel. Can you say 10mm Magnum almost.

hill billy
04-19-2010, 14:36
Don't forget bullet seated depth and its affect. That's what I an looking forward to playing with on the 10" G2 Contender barrel. Can you say 10mm Magnum almost.

And crimp.

Retired Squid
04-19-2010, 14:41
And crimp.UMMM, you don't crip 10mm except if shooting in S&W 610, in automatic's they head space off the case. Even a mild rolled crimp could cause a problem is some auto's. That said I do a very mild crimp that only snuggs the bullet some, and it took some tinkering to get it right.

hill billy
04-19-2010, 14:45
Not true, all rounds being used in a semi auto need crimp, all of them.

Even with a stiff crimp I have had nor heard from those shooting my ammo of any issues. A good crimp is good for quite a few FPS if you are careful.

Retired Squid
04-19-2010, 14:57
Not true, all rounds being used in a semi auto need crimp, all of them.

Even with a stiff crimp I have had nor heard from those shooting my ammo of any issues. A good crimp is good for quite a few FPS if you are careful.

Whatever, I just disagree and that's reloading no ones the same. :supergrin:

PS: I even seen it mentioned in reloading manuals not to do more then a mild roll crimp, and that's what I do. Just enough not to have bullet set back.

hill billy
04-19-2010, 14:59
Whatever, I just disagree and that's reloading no ones the same. :supergrin:

PS: I even seen it mentioned in reloading manuals not to do more then a mild roll crimp, and that's what I do. Just enough not to have bullet set back.

Agreed. When I reached the point where I wanted the loads faster and was not willing to put in more powder, in addition to the fact that .1 or .2 grains of powder was not going to give me what I wanted in a consistent fashion, I started toying with the crimp. I have found good, consistent results.

Kegs
04-19-2010, 16:39
KEGS, just be careful, Mike was using a 6" KKM barrel with his setup, I can say what Chrono he uses but some maybe more generous than others.

Recipies might be the same...but slight differences in componets, guns, barrels etc can have huge differences in results!

Best of luck!

Yeah, I know - not about to try this in my G29, but that is pretty awesome to be able to get that level of speed out of a 135.

I don't have any 135s...Maybe I should get some - but not until I get an optimistic chronometer :supergrin: of my own (and an aftermarket extended barrel).

Kegs
04-19-2010, 16:44
Not true, all rounds being used in a semi auto need crimp, all of them.

Interesting.

I don't crimp ANY of my rounds. Also, looking at some Double Tap ammo sitting here, none of that appears to be crimped either.

:upeyes:

Retired Squid
04-19-2010, 17:09
Interesting.

I don't crimp ANY of my rounds. Also, looking at some Double Tap ammo sitting here, none of that appears to be crimped either.

:upeyes:Actually that is correct, you do not use a full or tapper crimp on 10mm, 45ACP, 32ACP or any automatic straight wall pistol rimless case because the round head spaces on the neck of the case. You look at mine and unless you really look close you will see no tapper, you have to use a magniefing glass to see it. If you can easiely see the crimp you have too much crimp and with this up goes pressure also. I have a friend that says I have not crimped my rounds from what he can see.

Maine1
04-20-2010, 08:37
there are two kinds of crimp: roll crimp and taper crimp.

Roll crimp dies are generally supplied with revolver cartridges to allow the mouth of the case to be put in close contact with cannelured crimp grooves.

taper crim dies are used with auto cartriges, as they take the bell off the case, pushing the inside edge of the case closer to the bullet, leaving the outside edge of the case mouth for headspace.

are you guys using a case gauge? that step in the front of the gauge is what provides the stop for the cartridge. no matter how much crimp i have used on an auto, this has always worked.

crimp is nesesary, just the degree varies. revolver cartidge crimp and auto crimp are not the same, their parent firearms have diferent needs.

Retired Squid
04-20-2010, 09:20
there are two kinds of crimp: roll crimp and taper crimp.

Roll crimp dies are generally supplied with revolver cartridges to allow the mouth of the case to be put in close contact with cannelured crimp grooves.

taper crim dies are used with auto cartriges, as they take the bell off the case, pushing the inside edge of the case closer to the bullet, leaving the outside edge of the case mouth for headspace.

are you guys using a case gauge? that step in the front of the gauge is what provides the stop for the cartridge. no matter how much crimp i have used on an auto, this has always worked.

crimp is necessary, just the degree varies. revolver cartridge crimp and auto crimp are not the same, their parent firearms have different needs.

Very good write up, you really explained what I was trying to say but for some reason could not find proper words myself.

IIRC the Dillon seems to do both or I am confussing it with 357/44 I load, but I think the are tapered. Best I remember with the 10mm I had to do a bunch of trial and error and mike work before I was satisfied.

Kegs
04-20-2010, 09:23
Lee suggest that the taper crimping die for 10mm is "optional". I don't even own one. Perhaps I should get one? I've loaded about 200 rounds so far, haven't had any perceived problems with the rounds I have loaded.

Retired Squid
04-20-2010, 10:31
You know they must make the case's tighter because with little to no crimp on the 10mm I have never had a set-back problem in my 10 mm revolver's, but have had some minor set-back problem with 44 magnum when I first started loading for it last year.

Maine1
04-20-2010, 11:12
brass varies a little bit. i can tell when i hyave a piece of "blazer brass" in the 550, as it is a little harder to size. I stop to check to see if everything is ok, then check headstamp. Blazer is OK, but AMERC gets pitched!

I had to fool a little with my 10mm loads too. some did not want to getr uop to speed with little or no crimp, but a frimer crimp set things right, and improved feeding as well.

Taterhead
04-20-2010, 16:47
Lee suggest that the taper crimping die for 10mm is "optional". I don't even own one. Perhaps I should get one? I've loaded about 200 rounds so far, haven't had any perceived problems with the rounds I have loaded.

Several other manuals (including Sierra, Nosler, and Speer) recommend at least a light taper crimp. I've found that high/low velocity spreads narrow when crimping. I could be totally wrong about this, but I think crimping allows a certain amount of pressure to build before the bullet begins to creep. Also, when I chamber check my finished loads, they will oftentimes not chamber without at least a bit of crimp.

If an aftermarket barrel were in the future, crimping might be essential for proper feeding in the tighter chamber.

There have been times when I've crimped too much though and deformed the bullet to a large extent.

Retired Squid
04-20-2010, 17:21
Several other manuals (including Sierra, Nosler, and Speer) recommend at least a light taper crimp. I've found that high/low velocity spreads narrow when crimping. I could be totally wrong about this, but I think crimping allows a certain amount of pressure to build before the bullet begins to creep. Also, when I chamber check my finished loads, they will oftentimes not chamber without at least a bit of crimp.
Never checked my Glocks as I just assumed they would allow enough re-chambering after firing, that said my S&W 610'S and G-2 Contender will rechamber fired rounds.

My old G29 would ruin about have the cases fired through the gun, however the new G29SF & 20SF doesn't seem to damage the cases by buldging or spliting as the old G29 would do with my cases.

Tomorrow morning I will be going to the range with the G2 Contender and either one of the S&W 610's or Maybe my S&W 2206 for some cheap tension relief. :supergrin:

Kegs
04-21-2010, 06:29
So another addition to the **** I need to get to my ever growing hobby. :supergrin:

HOV
04-21-2010, 06:47
Just a comment on taper crimp for autoloader ammunition:

Taper crimp means the head of the cartridge has a slightly larger diameter than the mouth. The whole cartridge tapers toward the bullet. It does not mean the mouth of the cartridge is rolled like it is on a revolver cartridge.

Taper crimp is usually applied at the same time as bullet seating (but not necessarily). The procedure outlined in the RCBS die setup instructions is pretty good for getting a combined crimp/bullet seat in one stroke of the press.

First, you set up the die to just contact the case mouth on an empty case. Then you seat a bullet in the cartridge by hand, run it in the press again, and adjust the bullet seater until you have the desired COAL.

Then you take that cartridge with the proper COAL and use it to set taper: loosen the bullet seater until it no longer contacts the bullet, run the ram all the way up so the cartridge is sitting inside the die, then crank the die down by hand firmly on the cartridge. Now screw the bullet seater down until it just touches the bullet.

Lock everything in, and now the die is set up for both bullet seating and crimp in one shot.

I found this procedure works very well for my hand loads.

Kegs
04-24-2010, 08:31
This is what I am doing now.

gator378
04-28-2010, 21:31
Muzzle energy is the kinetic energy of a bullet as it is expelled from the muzzle of a firearm. It is often used as a rough indication of the destructive potential of a given firearm or load. The heavier the bullet and the faster it moves, the higher its muzzle energy and the more damage it will do.

Simply....

Faster means more woopasski. :supergrin:

Speed also helps to expand hollow point bullets. Normally higher the velocity, better the expansion with hollow points

gator378
04-28-2010, 21:41
+1

I'm looking at a Sierra bullets catalog, which lists the fastest speed for a 10mm 135 grain bullet as going 1,300 fps. It has energy of 507 in ft. lbs.

Where as they list the fastest 190 grain 10mm load as going 1050 fps and has energy of 465 ft. lbs.

To get to your 1,600 fps load, I'm afraid we need to change to a different cartridge.

Still, for 10mm, you can see that the little 135 grain bullet has more energy than the larger 190 grain bullet.

If I need really fast out comes the 44 mag 8+ inch barrel 240 grains bullet and H110 powder. The 190 grain Sierra and AA#9 is a good load in the 10mm One of my favorites.

Retired Squid
04-29-2010, 05:34
Man I have some new 18.0g loads loaded up for my G2 Contender that should run 1200 FPS in a 5" test barrel, but it will be in a 10" barrel that will give the round about a 5% to 10% increase in speed

MakeMineA10mm
04-29-2010, 22:55
Just a couple minor points of clarification on crimps:

1. You don't NEED to crimp, IF you are very gentle/conservative on bell-mouthing your brass. If you put in a very minimal bell-mouth, you can usually get away with no crimp at all. Conversely, if you put a huge bell on the case, for example because you're loading lead bullets, than you're going to need a means to iron that back out. Most use the crimp-die for that.

2. In autoloaders, because of the possibility of feed-cycle finickyness, it's a great idea to put a crimp on the round.

3. You CAN use a roll-crimp die to put a pseudo-taper crimp on the case. Just adjust it carefully enough to take out all of the bell-mouthing and VERY slightly begin to turn the mouth in. Of course, to do this consistently requires brass trimmed to the exact same length, or it becomes a huge pain in the neck. Since this almost never occurs, taper crimps are much easier for lazy people like me who hate trimming... :supergrin:

Personally, I've found that crimp has little to do with headspacing. I know all the books say it does, but if you look REAL closely at the tolerances of a SAAMI chamber drawing with the tolerances of a loaded cartridge drawing from SAAMI, you'll find that maximum chambers combined with minimum ammo can easily cause a situation where there's no way for the mouth of the case to engage the shelf of the chamber, in theory, yet, that combination works all the time... In addition, try measuring some loaded rounds of, say, 45ACP sometime. I've never found a piece of 45ACP brass yet (and I've checked thousands) that is long enough to reach the headspace shelf in the chamber, yet, again, the ammo works perfectly fine every time...

I believe the combination of the extractor hook engaging the extractor groove along with any taper that exists on the case is what keeps things in-position. If I had to pick only one thing, it would be the extractor hook...

Kegs
05-01-2010, 15:53
mma10 - thanks for your input.