SW1911A1 or Colt Government [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Kona2004
03-06-2010, 13:58
I'm trying to decide what to get for my first 1911, which will basically serve as a range gun and just something else to add to the collections. I'd like to stay under a grand and found the following two that will fall below budget. Any suggestions or recommendations on either of these?

S&W SW1911A1 (model # 108282) - $860
Colt Government (model # O1091) - $805

danlee36
03-06-2010, 15:03
I personally think a good first 1911 for the money in the models you're looking at would be a Springfield. You could get a mil-spec for a few hundred less than those, or a Loaded for around the same price. Their customer service is one of the best in the industry, and you can make it a project gun or learn from it. Just something worth checkin out at least.

zdragon23c
03-06-2010, 15:04
if this is your first 1911.....get the S&W 108282. You will thank later.
i have had the exact model for over a year and a half....basically a zero maintenance(except for routine fieldstrip cleaning and oiling) and out-of-the-box zero issue 1911.

danlee36
03-06-2010, 15:06
I also just don't personally like the child proof "warning" label on the SW1911's lol

Annoyedgrunt
03-06-2010, 16:11
I would go with the Colt if I were you, but I admit to being a little Colt-biased because I have one- a WWI repro 1911 that has been flawless to shoot, and the fit, finish, and machining have to be seen to be believed. It makes my Springfield Mil-Spec (an excellent pistol in its own right) seem like a cheap copy.

And (for me, anyway) I'd get a Colt for the historical angle. Nothing against S&W, but they've only been making them since 2003 while Colt has been at it since, well, 1911. It may or not mean much to others, but it's nice to have a pistol with the same heritage as the pistols that our boys in Belleau Wood and Iwo Jima carried. :patriot:

CMG
03-06-2010, 16:15
I'm a big anti-fan of external extractors on 1911s, so the S&W and SIG are never on my short list.

The Colt Combat Elite is available (on-line for less than $900) and offers most features folks like in a 1911 these days (BT grip safety, larger sights, tighter fit), and it's downright handsome!

In any case, I prefer the Colt to the S&W.

kilroy2721
03-06-2010, 22:12
While I have had both types of 1911's (internal & external extractor), I have NEVER had a problem with any of the S&W's. I also have the paticular model you are looking at the 108282. It is a good model. Don't use it any more as I have gone back to the Glock 21sf for the CDP division in IDPA.

bac1023
03-07-2010, 00:18
You're getting more for the money with S&W, but the Colt will hold its value better.

Both are good, just different.

Cobra64
03-07-2010, 01:53
I also just don't personally like the child proof "warning" label on the SW1911's lol

I don't either.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/1911/Marks%20Smith%20and%20Wesson/1911WARNING2.jpg



http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/1911/Marks%20Smith%20and%20Wesson/DONOTUSELEFT-2.jpg





Seriously, my 108284 is extremely accurate, flawless reliability, and has a tailored appearance. Cost: about $1k.


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/1911/Marks%20Smith%20and%20Wesson/P1010362.jpg



http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/1911/Marks%20Smith%20and%20Wesson/P1010363.jpg




.

Navitimer
03-07-2010, 12:55
I'm a Colt fan and would go with the Government model. Beautiful 1911 (and the original 1911 manufacturer) without all the crazy serrations. I should also say that I like the old school hammer grip safety.

BOGE
03-07-2010, 13:28
You´re in luck that the new S&W Titanium FP model sans needless extra safety garbage is now available. It is in essence a ¨Series 70¨ type 1911 albeit without internal extractor. If I were looking for a new Smith 1911 it´d be this one. The ONLY issue is that S&W did NOT use the larger & more reliable extractor as issued on their Performance Ctr. models.

Cobra64
03-07-2010, 19:41
You´re in luck that the new S&W Titanium FP model sans needless extra safety garbage is now available. It is in essence a ¨Series 70¨ type 1911 albeit without internal extractor. If I were looking for a new Smith 1911 it´d be this one. The ONLY issue is that S&W did NOT use the larger & more reliable extractor as issued on their Performance Ctr. models.



I have not had an issue with either extractor.


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/1911/Marks%20Performance%20Center/PCRIGHT05.jpg



http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/1911/Marks%20Smith%20and%20Wesson/P1010362.jpg




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bac1023
03-07-2010, 19:56
Me neither. :cool:


http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr97/briancut1023/000_1750.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n5/bac1023/000_2052.jpg

BOGE
03-07-2010, 23:21
The S&W 1911 is a good value for the money, but some samples of the guns exhibit tolerance stacking which leaves the extractor sitting too high in relation to the cartridge rim. This causes the cartridge rim to get pulled off the extractor hook during barrel linkdown. The extractor loses grip on the casing, resulting in issues with extraction and ejection - commonly seen as erratic ejection patterns or stovepipes. The problem is not apparent in new guns or guns with relatively low round counts (less than 5000 rounds), which is why most shooters tend to do ok with the guns. Further, most shooters do not realize that the gun is borderline in functioning if the empty cases are ejecting from the gun - albeit in a haphazard pattern, to include straight up, to the left, over their head, or straight out in front of the gun. A gun that exhibits such flawed ejection patterns is not "flawless" or "working just fine", and is typically waiting to spring bigger problems on its user. A new extractor doesn't typically cure the issue, as the accumulated wear compounds the tolerance stacking problem.

The fact that there is a different Performance Center extractor should be an important indicator that there is a better solution. Further, it is important to note that I am not condemning all external extractors. If you have read my articles, I am a big proponent of the concept. However, the point here is that the results for the production SW1911 extractors are inconsistent.

If you already have the gun running and it is working for you at this time, then drive on. Just keep a critical eye on the gun and understand what you are observing.

If anyone has questions about things that I write about, I would encourage them to contact me directly to get a straight and correct answer. My writings are based on gathered empirical data and firsthand experience, and I am cautious always to post on matters that I have researched thoroughly.
__________________


http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=211382&highlight=extractor

Makoman
03-08-2010, 02:20
I'd go with the Colt but I will admit I'm a little biased. I've heard nothing but good things about the Smith's but I've had zero problems with the two that I own. I was going to sell the one but just couldn't bring myself to do it, in fact, now I'm looking for a Commander!

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p103/i-claudius/IMG_0770.jpg

rottboy_8
03-10-2010, 04:51
As for 1911's, I seem to like them all, some more than others, but if I have a bountyful supply of cash, would get them all.
Have never come across a Colt I didn't like, but then again, after shooting a couple of S&W Performance Center revolvers last Sunday at a match, their 1911's should be in the same quality level.
My current Colts are very accurate and tight (both used). Be warned that once the "bug has bitten", one won't be enough!!!!

Cobra64
03-10-2010, 04:58
As for 1911's, I seem to like them all, some more than others, but if I have a bountyful supply of cash, would get them all.
Have never come across a Colt I didn't like, but then again, after shooting a couple of S&W Performance Center revolvers last Sunday at a match, their 1911's should be in the same quality level.
My current Colts are very accurate and tight (both used). Be warned that once the "bug has bitten", one won't be enough!!!!

I know what you mean. :)


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/1911/Marks%20Performance%20Center/PCRIGHT04.jpg



http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/1911/Marks%20Performance%20Center/PCLEFT06.jpg



http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/1911/Marks%20Performance%20Center/PCFRONT09.jpg



http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/1911/Marks%20Performance%20Center/PCFRONT03.jpg




.

bac1023
03-10-2010, 06:52
My current Colts are very accurate and tight (both used). Be warned that once the "bug has bitten", one won't be enough!!!!


I'm not really sure I'd use accurate and tight to describe Colt 1911s.

Compared to a Glock, sure. However, by 1911 standards I don't agree.

I do think they're very well built, but Colts are usually fairly loose compared to many others.

Cobra64
03-10-2010, 13:07
I'm not really sure I'd use accurate and tight to describe Colt 1911s.

Compared to a Glock, sure. However, by 1911 standards I don't agree.

I do think they're very well built, but Colts are usually fairly loose compared to many others.

Surprisingly enough, this WWI reproduction has relatively little slide slop, but the barrel to barrel bushing is loosy-goosy. It does lock up tight though.

A few days ago we bench rested for accuracy, and at 15 yards it was consistenly shooting 5" groups.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/1911/Colt%201911%20WWI%201918/REAR10.jpg



http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/1911/Colt%201911%20WWI%201918/P1030527.jpg

MD357
03-10-2010, 13:43
I'm not really sure I'd use accurate and tight to describe Colt 1911s.

Compared to a Glock, sure. However, by 1911 standards I don't agree.

I do think they're very well built, but Colts are usually fairly loose compared to many others.

Frame to slide fit ~5% MAYBE of total accuracy. Otherwise it would be VERY hard to prove that vertical lockup is any better or worse than other makes in terms of factory specs.

Makoman
03-10-2010, 13:57
Frame to slide fit ~5% MAYBE of total accuracy. Otherwise it would be VERY hard to prove that vertical lockup is any better or worse than other makes in terms of factory specs.

I agree. I think that when it comes to accuracy in 1911's, the biggest deciding factor is going to be the fitment of barrel to slide lock-up, barrel to bushing fit, and then bushing to slide fit.

Cobra64
03-10-2010, 14:34
I agree. I think that when it comes to accuracy in 1911's, the biggest deciding factor is going to be the fitment of barrel to slide lock-up, barrel to bushing fit, and then bushing to slide fit.

I totally agree. I had a conversation with a SIG pistolsmith and he said that the reason there are smilies on SIG barrels (for instance) is that at full lockup the barrel is under tension with the slide; meaning that the barrel and slide are essentially one. That being said, assuming the sights are properly indexed, the bullet will go in the direction of sight alignment.

Many Sigsters have posted issues with the P239 slide to frame fit as loosy-goosy, but lock-up is tight and the gun is extremely accurate. This confirms your and my reasoning re barrel to slide fitment/lockup.

Conversations with 1911 pistolsmiths talk about 1911 accuracy having to do with barrel lug and barrel link tolerances. Kuhnhausen devotes six pages (starting on page 124) to these tolerancing aspects.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/1911/scan0002-1.jpg


Then there's further discussion about the barrel bushing, etc. All interesting stuff. :supergrin:

zdragon23c
03-10-2010, 14:56
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/52dragon/P1040965.jpg

Makoman
03-10-2010, 15:17
I've got to get those Kuhnhausen books. They are the old and new testament for the 1911!

Cobra64
03-10-2010, 15:29
I've got to get those Kuhnhausen books. They are the old and new testament for the 1911!

Yup. Here's the other one:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/1911/scan0001-1.jpg



.

bac1023
03-10-2010, 16:08
Frame to slide fit ~5% MAYBE of total accuracy. Otherwise it would be VERY hard to prove that vertical lockup is any better or worse than other makes in terms of factory specs.

I agree. I think that when it comes to accuracy in 1911's, the biggest deciding factor is going to be the fitment of barrel to slide lock-up, barrel to bushing fit, and then bushing to slide fit.

No, I realize the barrel lockup is the deciding factor. I've said that many, many times here.

I didn't say the frame to slide fit was the reason for the accuracy concerns, I just said it was loose.

I've just never felt Colt 1911s were overly accurate out of the box.

Who knows, maybe its me, but tight and accurate do not describe any of my Colts, that includes my Gold Cup and Special Combat.

Both are about as loose as 1911s can get.

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu81/ollituc/000_2318.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu81/ollituc/000_2217.jpg

Makoman
03-10-2010, 18:05
I didn't say the frame to slide fit was the reason for the accuracy concerns, I just said it was loose.


http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu81/ollituc/000_2318.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu81/ollituc/000_2217.jpg

Of course not Bac. We're all just throwing in our $.02 :supergrin:

DaBigBR
03-10-2010, 23:00
A couple years ago I would have said to go with the Colt hands-down...then one of my coworkers bought a S&W (108303 - Stainless with Rail). It was surprisingly well built, good finish, good fit, and only ran him about $800 (plus night sights and new grips). The only real thing that I found "wrong" with it was that the trigger had a little vertical play, but the feel of the actual trigger pull did not appear affected. Easily as accurate or more accurate than any other out of the box gun I have seen. Kicked the crap out of my Kimbers, IMO.

rottboy_8
03-11-2010, 17:50
I'm not really sure I'd use accurate and tight to describe Colt 1911s........but Colts are usually fairly loose compared to many others.

.........just said it was loose...........never felt Colt 1911s were overly accurate out of the box...........tight and accurate do not describe any of my Colts, ...Both are about as loose as 1911s can get.

Both my Colts remain unmodified, internally, but compared to my Dan Wesson and Kimber, they are about just as tight, racked or not. Mind you they are not the latest production either. Bac, this could be the reason for their better fit/performance or did I just luck-out on two nice used ones.
As mentioned in other posts, of all my .45's, only the Norc is the under-performer at 25 mtrs. Shooting unsupported, weaver stance, my Dan Wesson is the best (had trigger work) with the Kimber a very close second followed by the Colt Gold Cup and the Combat Elite. Am not doing anything with the Kimber for now as it shoots so well but the Colts will have some done in the coming months to get their trigger actions on par with the DW and K.
Am the second owner.
History from the 1st owners are:
- Gold Cup (originally purchased in the late '80's - fired 300 rnds.)
- Combat Elite Mk. IV Series 80 (purchased in early '90's - fired 500 rnds.).
Here are some pics of my reliable (for now at least) Colts.

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww40/pll911senna/ColtGoldCupRight.jpg
http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww40/pll911senna/ColtCombatEliteinBox.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww40/pll911senna/TheLegendLivesColtBox.jpg

Apologize to the purists but the add-ons on the Gold Cup are due to its regular use at the range and matches. Combat Elite will, likewise, have finger grips and mag well installed once the parts arrive.

A couple years ago I would have said to go with the Colt hands-down...then one of my coworkers bought a S&W....well built, good finish, good fit, and only ran him about $800......Kicked the crap out of my Kimbers, IMO.

My used Colts cost me less than $800 each but then again, they didn't kick the crap out of my Kimber!!!

WOLVERINES!!!
03-11-2010, 18:50
colt!

Brian Brazier
03-12-2010, 02:22
My Smith has been flawless, I think dollar for dollar the Smith 1911 (especially the 108285) is the best in its pricerange for a 1911 of that style.