What happens when the BG chickens out? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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emt1581
03-06-2010, 22:20
I wasn't sure whether to put "freaks out" or "chickens out"...but anyways, we always talk about tactics and preparing to defend ourselves. But what happens if the BG poses enough of a threat to justify lethal force (pointing the gun at us, shooting others, etc.) but when they see you pull your gun they start freaking out, cry, piss their pants, etc...?

I mean obviously it's no longer a justifiable shoot. Let's also assume they drop their weapon.

As non-LEO we can't exactly cuff them or restrain them. I'm pretty sure they're free to run away if they want. Sure they are criminals or even possibly murderers, but again, what is our role at that point as a CCWer aside from being a good witness and calling the cops?

Again, we typically don't discuss this sort of thing and although I know it's an unlikely scenerio, how do you deal with such a curve ball?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

zoyter2
03-06-2010, 23:19
As a CCWer, you generally have NO role in detaining, apprehending, or arresting anyone whether or not they are a penny thief or a mass murderer. Your one and only ROLE is to defend yourself and your loved ones, and stop any threat to your life or safety. The situation may develop so that this role expands, but usually, if no shots are fired, it does not.

If you pull a gun and Charles Manson drops his machete and runs, your next move is to call the cops and report what happened.

silvercoupe
03-06-2010, 23:28
Im a firm believer that if a bg had the frame of mind to pull a gun on me whether or not he drops it does not matter to me ill still put 3 shots center mass. the only thing that will stop me from shooting him is if they turn and run as you cant shoot them in the back. What happens to the next poor soul that is not armed? Your significant other maybe your kids I for one will not take that chance

Glock30 Guy
03-06-2010, 23:45
I'm with Silvercoupe...

zoyter2
03-07-2010, 15:25
Im a firm believer that if a bg had the frame of mind to pull a gun on me whether or not he drops it does not matter to me ill still put 3 shots center mass. the only thing that will stop me from shooting him is if they turn and run as you cant shoot them in the back. What happens to the next poor soul that is not armed? Your significant other maybe your kids I for one will not take that chance

I understand that if you have a split second decision, when he has a gun and you have a gun, you begin shooting immediately and that there may be no time for it to register on you that he is retreating.

That said, do you actually mean that, if for some reason, the actual shooting HASN'T started, (ie, you go for cover and draw a gun) and he sees this, puts his gun down, and puts his hands up, you will still "put 3 shots" into his chest?

silvercoupe
03-07-2010, 22:33
Yes not a second thought.. I understand most may not agree with this but like I previously said he only put his down because i pulled out mine. What happens if he goes to the next person and they are unarmed.. the cops cant tell the BG put the gun down before he was shot or if it fell when he was shot.

badlands99
03-07-2010, 23:10
the cops cant tell the BG put the gun down before he was shot or if it fell when he was shot.

I wouldn't count on that.
Haven't you ever seen Forensic Files?
But it wouldn't take a forensics expert to look at where the bad guy fell, and where his gun is laying, and suspect something. Unless you just got lucky.

silvercoupe
03-07-2010, 23:22
if a bg is in your space and you had to draw on him i doubt the cops would be looking that close to see if he tried to go Opps sorry wrong house.

Gallium
03-08-2010, 00:14
remember can they prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it happened that way? besides if a bg is in your space and you had to draw on him i doubt the cops would be looking that close to see if he tried to go Opps sorry wrong house.


It's generally not a good idea to commit ideas to permanency if such ideas can be used to show possible future intent.

'Drew

zoyter2
03-08-2010, 01:03
Yes not a second thought.. I understand most may not agree with this but like I previously said he only put his down because i pulled out mine. What happens if he goes to the next person and they are unarmed.. the cops cant tell the BG put the gun down before he was shot or if it fell when he was shot.

Good luck with that. Personally I hope most do not agree with this.

On a side note, how do you feel about very close and forceful physical relations with incarcerated felons? If the idea doesn't appeal to you in the least, maybe you should rethink either your feelings for "self-defense" or your feelings about other men. If you ever need your gun, you may need to make these decisions in a hurry. :cool:

SanityAssassin
03-08-2010, 01:37
Yes not a second thought.. I understand most may not agree with this but like I previously said he only put his down because i pulled out mine. What happens if he goes to the next person and they are unarmed.. the cops cant tell the BG put the gun down before he was shot or if it fell when he was shot.

What happens on the internet does not stay on the internet. It's ok, we all know you are just joking around, but others, like a DA, might be confused.

SanityAssassin
03-08-2010, 01:45
If BG is in my home, and it happens that he drops his gun while I have mine, I'd be very hesitant to let him leave except in police custody. He knows where I live, he knows I have a gun, he knows I could testify against him, so he might very well be inclined to pay me another visit.
Not sure what the law says about me detaining someone in my own home though...

Hedo1
03-08-2010, 08:34
The first time I drew my gun in self defense the bad guy dropped his knife and ran. Almost before I had cleared the holster. I didn't chase him but walked slowly and carefully after him. The PD got him at the top of the stairs leading from the subway.

David Armstrong
03-08-2010, 09:56
Im a firm believer that if a bg had the frame of mind to pull a gun on me whether or not he drops it does not matter to me ill still put 3 shots center mass.
That is a real good way to spend a whole lot of time in prison with a bunch of other BGs.
What happens to the next poor soul that is not armed?
You don't know, and that is why we don't let folks base decisions like this on what might happen some other time. Heck, the BG might get religion, change his ways, and save 30 kids from burning to death at the local orphanage.
the cops cant tell the BG put the gun down before he was shot or if it fell when he was shot.
Lots of folks doing time becasue they thought like that.

mitchshrader
03-08-2010, 10:52
if i'm not gonna shoot him, i'll make him strip nekkid and walk off.

you asked.

ncglock19
03-08-2010, 11:24
Im a firm believer that if a bg had the frame of mind to pull a gun on me whether or not he drops it does not matter to me ill still put 3 shots center mass. the only thing that will stop me from shooting him is if they turn and run as you cant shoot them in the back. What happens to the next poor soul that is not armed? Your significant other maybe your kids I for one will not take that chance

This needs to be stickied somewhere. Great point.

joe

CAcop
03-08-2010, 11:57
Legally speaking if somebody prsents a deadly force threat and you pull your gun but then they stop present a deadly force threat you have essentially made a citizens arrest. Hell, if you have to shoot him and he drops you have made a citizens arrest. If the guy is standing there tell him to lay on the ground.

Call 911 and tell them what you got.

Dreamaster
03-08-2010, 14:10
Are we talking inside your home? Or thug on the street, because I think in the eyes of the law in most states that's two different situations.

ijacek
03-08-2010, 14:26
I wasn't sure whether to put "freaks out" or "chickens out"...but anyways, we always talk about tactics and preparing to defend ourselves. But what happens if the BG poses enough of a threat to justify lethal force (pointing the gun at us, shooting others, etc.) but when they see you pull your gun they start freaking out, cry, piss their pants, etc...?

I mean obviously it's no longer a justifiable shoot. Let's also assume they drop their weapon.

As non-LEO we can't exactly cuff them or restrain them. I'm pretty sure they're free to run away if they want. Sure they are criminals or even possibly murderers, but again, what is our role at that point as a CCWer aside from being a good witness and calling the cops?

Again, we typically don't discuss this sort of thing and although I know it's an unlikely scenerio, how do you deal with such a curve ball?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

I would be inclined to put that encounter into the "WIN" column. Once he has vacated the immediate area and is not posing a threat, call 911 and let them know, where and how long ago he went, what was he wearing, what he looked like etc..

Also keep your hands off of whatever he dropped. Chances are there will be a good quality prints on it, even if he was wearing gloves [highly doubt he was loading the magazine/wheel with his gloves on], and handled the knife/bat/whatever with gloves on at all times.

Gallium
03-08-2010, 14:28
This needs to be stickied somewhere. Great point.

joe


Yes. Indeed it is a very good point. One of the fastest ways to go from "victim" to "convict".

:cool:

'Drew

Brucev
03-08-2010, 21:20
When a student in New Orleans (1979-1982) my wife and I had to deal with four attempted break-in's at our apartment. In three instances with a shotgun and once with a I ran the criminal(s) away. Only the one who tried to come in through the kitchen ever came close to making me have to do something to him. I intended to put a round at his feet if he advanced toward me. I had a pistol and he had a ice pick. He ran so I did nothing. I don't think I could have explained to NOPD if I had not held my fire.

In 1987 I faced a man who was stomping a woman at a ATM trying to make her give up her money. I chased him on foot through city streets till I cornered him by a high chain-link fence. He threatened to cut me up. When I grabbed a brick to use on him he reached inside his jacket for what he said was a gun. I aimed at his head with the brick and ordered him to get his hand up and lean against the wire. The police arrived just about the time I was winding up to hit him in the head with the brick. They saw a white man with a brick and a african-american man up against the fence. They pulled their guns on me until they saw all the blood (I was bleeding from the mouth) and then figured out the other man was the criminal. He turned out to be unarmed. I wonder what would have been the results if I had gone ahead and hit him with the brick. If I'd had a pistol, I wonder what would have happened if I had shot him. Maybe we all like to think we know exactly what we would do. Maybe we do know what we would do. But big talk doesn't cut it when you've got to deal with someone. You've got to keep your head and think. After it is all over, you are going to have to answer a lot of questions from the police and the other county law officers. You are also going to have to write out in detail exactly what happened. You are going to be asked to tell the story time after time. And then in court your going to have to tell everything before the judge and jury. And you will have to be ready to deal with the defense attorney. He will put you on trial and you will have to answer all his questions no matter if you think they are fair or anything else. Maybe before saying what one would do, everyone ought to think real hard about what it means to actually use deadly force on somone and also about what follows even when later it turns out that you did everything right. JMHO. Sincerely. Brucev.

filerunner
03-08-2010, 21:24
Im a firm believer that if a bg had the frame of mind to pull a gun on me whether or not he drops it does not matter to me ill still put 3 shots center mass.

But if there is a witness, your doomed.

Bado
03-08-2010, 21:57
...But what happens if the BG poses enough of a threat to justify lethal force (pointing the gun at us, shooting others, etc.) but when they see you pull your gun they start freaking out, cry, piss their pants, etc...? ...

Is everything moving in slow motion? He should not have the time to think, he should have a few holes in him. Do you plan on hesitating on pulling the trigger?

ncglock19
03-08-2010, 22:00
Yes. Indeed it is a very good point. One of the fastest ways to go from "victim" to "convict".

:cool:

'Drew

I bow to your God-like knowledge. Teach me, all-knowing one.

silvercoupe
03-08-2010, 22:02
From Comment one I had the frame of mind that this senario was in your own personal home. if this was out in public where there is a chance that there may be a witnes or worse yet a camera to see exactly what is going on i would not act the same way i do in my home. florida law is very clear with the castle law anyone not lawfully allowed in your home can be shot if you feel threatened, armed or not.

Gallium
03-09-2010, 05:57
Im a firm believer that if a bg had the frame of mind to pull a gun on me whether or not he drops it does not matter to me ill still put 3 shots center mass. the only thing that will stop me from shooting him is if they turn and run as you cant shoot them in the back. What happens to the next poor soul that is not armed? Your significant other maybe your kids I for one will not take that chance

From Comment one I had the frame of mind that this senario was in your own personal home. if this was out in public where there is a chance that there may be a witnes or worse yet a camera to see exactly what is going on i would not act the same way i do in my home. florida law is very clear with the castle law anyone not lawfully allowed in your home can be shot if you feel threatened, armed or not.


There is nothing in the 1st post (thread starter), or your 1st post (quoted about your most recent) to give any suggestion that you were talking about being in your home.

IF this is all happening inside your home - well what happens behind closed doors should stay there :), but when you post stuff like this on the web it does not go away, and provides clues as to frame of mind and pre-meditation.

Also more importantly, you are not factoring that a lot of folks get shot multiple times by handguns in center of mass....and live. All it takes is for a bad guy who survived to say - "yes, I broke in his house to rob them, but when I saw he had a gun, and knowing mine was fake, I surrendered, and pleaded with him to not shoot me, but he called me a mother****er and shot me twice anyways".

It was only yesterday that my FL pistol permit renewal was mailed to me, and I also think I am fairly well versed on FL law as it applies to the use of deadly force. In plain speak, here are the four components of that law...(emphasis on red by me).



http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/freedomline/current/in_our_opinion/florida-self-defense-law.htm
The Florida law is a self-defense, self-protection law. It has four key components:


It establishes that law-abiding residents and visitors may legally presume the threat of bodily harm or death from anyone who breaks into a residence or occupied vehicle and may use defensive force, including deadly force, against the intruder.
In any other place where a person “has a right to be,” that person has “no duty to retreat” if attacked and may “meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.”
In either case, a person using any force permitted by the law is immune from criminal prosecution or civil action and cannot be arrested unless a law enforcement agency determines there is probable cause that the force used was unlawful.
If a civil action is brought and the court finds the defendant to be immune based on the parameters of the law, the defendant will be awarded all costs of defense.



Even if you are a police officer, on duty, responding to a call in your own home, if someone ceases being a threat, and surrenders, you are not authorized to use deadly force, only that level of force required to gain their compliance / remove them from your property or detain them until law enforcement takes custody of them.

Posting your Dirty Harry thoughts on the web may just come back to bite you in the ass one day.

'Drew

emt1581
03-09-2010, 08:25
To clarify I was NOT talking about a home invasion. I was actually thinking about the parking lot at the local grocery store at 1am...random I know, but that's what I had in mind, not that it matter much. But no...not a home invasion question.

As far as what we as citizens should do, I know that one of the cases I worked on with the DA involved a BG shooting a woman. A bystander (BIG guy!) didn't see who pointed the gun, just heard the shot. He then saw the guy and told him to stop. The BG told him he didn't do it and started to back away. When the bystander approached him he bolted. En route, the bystander called 911 and gave them their location/route. When the cops arrived the bystander was sitting on top of the BG.

Now the fact that the bystander restrained/detained the BG was NEVER even brought up in court. He was thanked for his service and dismissed from the stand.

That tells me it IS ok to restrain someone. However, I'm guessing if there would have been cuffs involved, even though it accomplished the same task, there would have been questions afterwards as to why that non-LEO bystander had cuffs on him.

After all the replies I think that what I would do is go from drawing to aiming, if the BG drops his weapon he is no longer an immediate threat but what says in the process of dropping/kicking away one he doesn't draw another and shoot/stab me? I'd put some distance between him and I so a blade would become useless and stay at the low ready until police arrived. If he wants to take off I'll do my best to follow him and keep the cops in the loop. I'd HATE to let a criminal get away only to go rape someone's daughter or wife or kill a family, but in such a situation, there is no justification for deadly force. So being a good witness/citizen really IS the only option.

Thanks!

-Emt1581

FillYerHands
03-09-2010, 09:28
My personal Rules of Engagement have always been that if the BG surrenders, I stop the fight. But I make him drop his pants around his ankles, lock his hands behind his head, and lie on the ground. Then I call 911 and stay on the phone until the police arrive.

At one time I thought of wire ties around the thumbs, but I don't want to risk making it look like imprisonment. I figure I'm going to get sued by the BG anyway but he doesn't need more to tell the jury.

rboatright
03-09-2010, 09:35
And it varies from state to state.

In Kansas you have the right to use force to defend yourself anywhere you have a right to be, such as your home or car, without a requirement to retreat.

But, in order to use deadly force, you are required to have cause to believe that you, or those you are with are in danger of death or grievious personal injury.

Once the bad guy has given up and tossed his gun, he gave up and tossed his gun.

Now, if he reaches for a hide-out gun in an ankle holster (unlikely) then the situation changed. but if you shoot the guy on the ground, that will be apparent on autopsy.

CSI isn't the real world, but this isn't uber-complicated. Once he gives up, or if he begins to run away, then he has given up, and you are no longer in imminent danger of death or grievious bodily harm. Don't shoot.

Stay aware, and dial 911 IMMEDIATELY. Because the person who makes the FIRST call to 911 is the victom, and if the BG makes the call before you, youre on the defensive.

David Armstrong
03-09-2010, 10:46
florida law is very clear with the castle law anyone not lawfully allowed in your home can be shot if you feel threatened, armed or not.
IIRC, there is a standard a bit more than "if you feel threatened". Might be pretty hard to explain how you feel threatened when the BG has put his gun down, is crying, etc. And of the course the usual admonition of just because you can shoot doesn't mean you should shoot is applicable.

jlavely
03-09-2010, 14:28
My CCH instructor may have said it best in my opinion. Your enemy is not the BG, however it is the THREAT at hand. You cannot use Deadly force on an BG (stay with me here folks), yet you CAN use deadly force on a THREAT. A BG with a gun or a knife coming at you is a current THREAT. However, once you feel as if the THREAT is over or expelled, your legal right to self defense is over because the BG is no longer a threat, he is just a BG. Easy one to live by:

You can act before or during, but never after.

LEGALLY...


However, my personal standpoint relies in a moral implication that the law will support. You have heard "never point a gun at someone unless you intend to kill them". You have heard this from dad, grandpa, movies, books, and TV. If you truly only pull out your firearm in the last chance of self-defense and fire, you are in the right. You felt the threat, eliminated the threat, confiscate gun, situation over. However, if you have time to think about what you should do at this point, you are in the wrong to fire in almost any state.

Your situation, I would have gone for the stripping the guy naked thing and call the police, letting them know to look for a naked guy.

plus3
03-11-2010, 07:16
From Comment one I had the frame of mind that this senario was in your own personal home. if this was out in public where there is a chance that there may be a witnes or worse yet a camera to see exactly what is going on i would not act the same way i do in my home. florida law is very clear with the castle law anyone not lawfully allowed in your home can be shot if you feel threatened, armed or not.


You do realize you are talking about killing people here right? To me I would think you should have the frame of mind that you would react the same way no matter what the location.
Making the statement that you would react differently if there was a witness makes me think that even you beleive you are doing something wrong.
If I have to shoot someone I want a witness there no matter what or where---I would only shoot someone because I HAD to in order to save my life, not because I WANTED to in order to stop them from preventing future crimes.