What is your favorite DT round, and why? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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DrtyHarry
03-08-2010, 15:57
I picked up a G20sf and am looking to pick up some ammo. I'm just starting to get into the 10mm game and am having some trouble trying to pick out what kind of DT ammo I want/need to order.

I decided to go with Mike's variety pack (200 rounds) where I get to pick 4 different kinds of rounds. Now I'm trying to figure what to get.

My 20sf is primarily going to be my SD pistol mostly in the woods while camping/hiking. I also want to try some handgun hunting next season, mostly bore/hogs (waiting on my 6" barrel). I will try and use it as my EDC (once skilled enough to do so with it), but I fear it will be too big.

And yes, I want to have a load strong enough to deter black bear..lots of em up in my neck of the woods. I have to look out my window every time I leave the house.

And lastly, a nice HD load. I am in no way worried about over penetration, I live in the middle of nowhere so if I ever have to use my 10mm in the house, I don't have to worry about a round passing through 4 other houses. I bought the 10mm G20sf because of how much fun I had blasting HOT rounds in my buddies 10mm. I'm still in awe!

What's the meanest load for 2 legged zombies and the best load for stopping big black bears?? I'm sure this has come up many times, but it looks like Mike has a few more different kinds of rounds that are not listed in the DT gelatin sticky. Thanks for the help guys!!

DH

Angry Fist
03-08-2010, 17:14
180 Bonded, or 155 Barnes. Stay away from the 135 Nosler for SD... not enough penetration, and too much frag, IMO. They are lots of fun, though. My neighbor about crapped himself when he heard the 135's. Keeps saying nothing's louder than a .45... :rofl:

Fire_Medic
03-08-2010, 17:19
180 Bonded, or 155 Barnes. Stay away from the 135 Nosler for SD... not enough penetration, and too much frag, IMO. They are lots of fun, though. My neighbor about crapped himself when he heard the 135's. Keeps saying nothing's louder than a .45... :rofl:
:rofl:

527varmint
03-08-2010, 17:21
any of the gold dot HP's for HD should do the trick. maybe pick two of them and see what one is most accurate?

For bear the only loads to get are the 200 and or 230 g hard cast. I don't remember if they have xtp from double tap. If they do then 200g xtp is also ok for bear but not as good. xtp is probably the best deer load.

overall most folks seem to carry the 200g in the woods. I personaly can't see buying DT for HD. One of the cheaper loads that is closer to 40sw ballistics would be fine with me.

uz2bUSMC
03-08-2010, 18:53
The 135grns are fun, I use them for home defense because of low penetration factor... you should see what they do to a pork shoulder.:wow:

The 165grn GD makes a lotta sense for a wide range of scenarios, HD or just EDC, they would pretty much excel at either duty.

The 200grn beartooths should give you a complete pass through on any blackbear at a wide variety of angles as it can penetrate about 21" of pineboard.

Meathead9
03-08-2010, 20:00
DT 200gr WFNGC for Woods Protection/Hunting, 180gr controlled expansion (XTP) for HD.

G33
03-08-2010, 21:24
XTP and GD.
:supergrin:

Taterhead
03-08-2010, 22:38
If they resumed loading the 180 gr XTP for their "controlled expansion," instead of the Montana Gold JHP that they had been substituting; that would be a solid overall round if one did not want to worry about mag changes each time one entered/exited the house. If one wanted to narrow it down to an inside/outside round I'd pick two. For walking around outside, I'd choose his 200 gr WFNGC hardcast. I buy that projectile from DT in component form for my handloads, and it is a very effective penetrator. I have recently transitioned to a 165 GD HP in my handloads, and I consider it to be effective. DT's 165 gr "bonded" be very effective for home defense.

Forgoten214
03-09-2010, 01:46
Is it true they have no more loadings with Gold Dots anymore? =(

hypnagogue
03-09-2010, 20:16
Is it true they have no more loadings with Gold Dots anymore? =(

The "bonded defense" is the Gold Dot bullet. Apparently Speer won't let anyone else call them Gold Dot anymore. The 165 grain loading is still available from Doubletap, and in my opinion, it is best all around choice. Buy 2 boxes.

I agree with 200 grain WFNGC for woods carry -- a must.

I also would recommend buying a box of 135 grain Nosler, simply because it's nice to see what it feels like to shoot lightning bolts out of your fingertips. No other reason.

Angry Fist
03-09-2010, 20:40
I also would recommend buying a box of 135 grain Nosler, simply because it's nice to see what it feels like to shoot lightning bolts out of your fingertips. No other reason.

+1:cool: Awesome, but carry something else...

bac1023
03-09-2010, 22:20
I actually like the 135gr. :cool:

Fire_Medic
03-09-2010, 22:24
I actually like the 135gr. :cool:

Most fun I have ever had shooting was cranking out this load on a buddies G20 last year.

:pepper:

Forgoten214
03-09-2010, 22:55
The "bonded defense" is the Gold Dot bullet. Apparently Speer won't let anyone else call them Gold Dot anymore. The 165 grain loading is still available from Doubletap, and in my opinion, it is best all around choice. Buy 2 boxes.

I agree with 200 grain WFNGC for woods carry -- a must.

I also would recommend buying a box of 135 grain Nosler, simply because it's nice to see what it feels like to shoot lightning bolts out of your fingertips. No other reason.


Really? Is that true??

Thanks for the heads up.

uz2bUSMC
03-10-2010, 05:46
Most fun I have ever had shooting was cranking out this load on a buddies G20 last year.

:pepper:

I blew a cooler up with the 135s, that was quite entertaining.

alwaysshootin
03-10-2010, 07:58
Sorry, IMHO, if your not shooting the 200 grain bullets, in excess of 1200 FPS variety, your just not getting the 10MM potential experience!:cool:

Fire_Medic
03-10-2010, 08:23
I blew a cooler up with the 135s, that was quite entertaining.

Now that sounds like fun. :supergrin:

JTknives
03-10-2010, 11:46
I really like the 155gr barnes, thats my carry load. but i have some 200 hard cast as well for the woods. I just loaded up 250 135 nosler that I'm taking to the range this weekend :)

Forgoten214
03-10-2010, 16:03
I really like the 155gr barnes, thats my carry load. but i have some 200 hard cast as well for the woods. I just loaded up 250 135 nosler that I'm taking to the range this weekend :)

What is so good about the 155gr barnes load besides being ridiculously expensive?

JTknives
03-10-2010, 17:09
What is so good about the 155gr barnes load besides being ridiculously expensive?
because the boolit is solid copper there are a few things i like. first no jacket separation and second copper is lighter then lead. this means a solid copper boolit is larger then a lead boolit of the same weight. and once you see the size of the hallow point you just fall in love

Forgoten214
03-10-2010, 17:15
because the boolit is solid copper there are a few things i like. first no jacket separation and second copper is lighter then lead. this means a solid copper boolit is larger then a lead boolit of the same weight. and once you see the size of the hallow point you just fall in love

Nice, what kind of expansion and penetration do you get with it?

With an all copper bullet you need a longer and larger bullet to achieve a higher grain. So you have to have less powder in the case to accommodate the bullet.

They are just so expensive. I'm not sure yet on it.

DWS22
03-10-2010, 21:21
My favorite DT round is the 135 gr. Nosler,,,,,,But, I use the DT 165 gr. Gold Dots,or bonded defense as they call them now in my G20 for carry...:wavey:

hickok45
03-11-2010, 07:37
I like the heavy cast bullets Double Tap loads, but be careful that they shoot accurately in your stock barrel. I posted a video recently, demonstrating my experience with the 230 grain cast bullets. In the G20 stock barrel, they go all over the place. Don't know if they are undersized for the bore or what, but they are not just a little inaccurate in my G20, they are humorously inaccurate.

I'm wondering if the 200 gr. FMJ bullet might be a good bear round. I'm going to test their 200 grain cast bullets at some point in my stock barrel and see if I get better results. It could be the weight of the 230 grain bullets, too. IF they are a bit undersized, then it would be even harder for the barrel to stabilize them.

In an aftermarket barrel (LW) that is designed for cast bullets, I get excellent accuracy with the DT 230 grain cast bullets, by the way. The video is not my only testing; I had tested them three different times in the stock barrel, even though I was fooling around a bit and acting surprised initially in the video.

Double Tap is great ammo, of course. I plan to order more of it. I just thought it only fair to share my results with the stock barrel and these 230 gr. cast bullets. I wouldn't want any of my subscribers to get eaten by a bear after taking careful aim with one of these at a charging bear! The careful aiming would not help, believe me, if his barrel were like my stock barrel. :-)

DrtyHarry
03-11-2010, 08:49
^Very interesting! Has anyone else experienced this with the 230gr. cast rounds with the stock barrel?

DH

10mm29
03-11-2010, 12:39
My advice is no matter what you decide on, call them and ask if they are available.

I ordered about a month ago
135 nosler
165 bonded
180 bonded
200 controlled expansion

but recieved
135 nosler
180 nosler( they crossed the 165s off the invoice, I guess they were out)
180 bonded
A box that said 200 controlled expansion but was in fact loaded with 180s
they didn't mention this, I found out through this forum.

Forgoten214
03-11-2010, 14:06
^Very interesting! Has anyone else experienced this with the 230gr. cast rounds with the stock barrel?

DH

Yes, Mr Hickok45 did in his YT video.

He claims it was not very accurate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m0satEkGjw

I hope it is ok with you Mr Hickok45 to post this video for informative reasons?

agtman
03-11-2010, 17:26
Yes, Mr Hickok45 did in his YT video.

He claims it was not very accurate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m0satEkGjw


Well, I watched this video and here are my thoughts:

1) The stock Glock tube is not rifled optimumly for lead bullets, or mostly lead bullets. Jacketed bullets is what it's set-up for;

2) Hickok45 seemed to hit better with the same loads using the LWD 10mm tube;

3) IMO, he's not that great of a shot - so before we condemn the particular 10mm load as "inaccurate," let's be sure we've removed the shooter as a factor in assessing the load's accuracy;

4) FWIW, I've shot this and other DT "hunting/woods" load out of my S&W 10mm 610 wheelie (w/ 6.5" barrel).

Shown here, far right, is DT's old, now-discontinued 220gn Precision FP HC boolit. http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo166/agtman/610-6.jpg

All of them were at least VERY accurate, with some being hyper-accurate - which, again, causes me to question the shooter's marksmanship (especially when firing unsupported) before questioning the inherent accuracy of DT's 230gn load. :dunno:

:cool:

G20gunner
03-11-2010, 17:32
First off, I wish I could shoot as good as Hickok45!!!! And he did mention in his video that his particular Glock barrel didn't like the 230gr. DT load, but that his LW barrel did. So I don't see where he misrepresented anything. He spoke highly of DT ammo, it's just that this particular load didn't work well in his stock barrel.
I think it was an honest report.

G20gunner:wavey:

cowboywannabe
03-11-2010, 18:01
i have some 165gr. G.D. and some 135gr. Noslers...i do have one magazine of the 200gr. lead hard casts or something........

i like the 165s for all around general uses if not in the woods.
im going to "test" the 135s to see for my self what they do and how they feel out of a G20.

if not in a Police type situation (that is very very rare for a private citizen to be in) the 135s should be plenty bad-ass.

Forgoten214
03-11-2010, 19:00
Well, I watched this video and here are my thoughts:

1) The stock Glock tube is not rifled optimumly for lead bullets, or mostly lead bullets. Jacketed bullets is what it's set-up for;

2) Hickok45 seemed to hit better with the same loads using the LWD 10mm tube;

3) IMO, he's not that great of a shot - so before we condemn the particular 10mm load as "inaccurate," let's be sure we've removed the shooter as a factor in assessing the load's accuracy;

4) FWIW, I've shot this and other DT "hunting/woods" load out of my S&W 10mm 610 wheelie (w/ 6.5" barrel).

Shown here, far right, is DT's old, now-discontinued 220gn Precision FP HC boolit. http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo166/agtman/610-6.jpg

All of them were at least VERY accurate, with some being hyper-accurate - which, again, causes me to question the shooter's marksmanship (especially when firing unsupported) before questioning the inherent accuracy of DT's 230gn load. :dunno:

:cool:

I think Hickok45 is a very good shooter. He's been shooting competition since the early 70s.

Also keep in mind your comparing a Glock 20 against a S&W 610 revolver. Much different shooting characteristics. ;-)

agtman
03-11-2010, 19:50
I think Hickok45 is a very good shooter. He's been shooting competition since the early 70s.

Also keep in mind your comparing a Glock 20 against a S&W 610 revolver. Much different shooting characteristics. ;-)

Just so we're all clear, I was SPECIFICALLY responding to Forgoten214's statement (or conclusion) that "[Hickok45] claims it was not very accurate." My sense of the vid was that was what Hickok45 concluded.

And, more over, I don't care if ol' Hickok's been shooting since the Big Bear Leather Slaps of the 1950s. :upeyes:

The kind of "off-hand" shooting shown in the YouTube vid is not how you do a valid test for the inherent accuracy of a given load. You need to take the shooter OUT of the equation, and that can only be credibly done from a rested position. Off-hand shooting doesn't do that.

OTOH, if you're testing for quick "combat" or "street" accuracy, then a rested position doesn't matter.

FWIW, I agree that a G20 and a 610 revolver have different shooting characteristics. But here we're talking about the vaildity of how you test for a given load's inherent accuracy.

Again, the vid's okay, and I appreciate anyone who takes the time and effort to do this sort of hands-on load testing. I've done it myself and written about it.

I'm just questioning whether, given what was shown, the 230gn 10mm load got a fair shot in this one.

:cool:

Glockcubed
03-11-2010, 19:52
I like the 135's just ordered and received 500 rounds.:banana: I also like the 165 bonded defense just ordered and received 500 rounds. :broccoli: Today was a good day. :wiggle: Saturday will be lots of fun.:dancing:

gator378
03-12-2010, 18:41
Sorry, IMHO, if your not shooting the 200 grain bullets, in excess of 1200 FPS variety, your just not getting the 10MM potential experience!:cool:

I get close with 12.5 grains AA#9 with the 4.6 inch barrel. One of these days a long slide with 6 inch barrel is going to show up. 1200fps would be easier to obtain. Of course the 44 mag is always ready to go with 240 at 1400

gator378
03-12-2010, 18:45
^Very interesting! Has anyone else experienced this with the 230gr. cast rounds with the stock barrel?

DH

I have the Barstow barrel in my G20. Good accuracy, no problems. with 200 or 230 cast rounds. Glock barrels and high pressure do not go together. No smileys with the Barstow barrel. The Glock barrel makes a good home for your local friendly spider.

gumby223
03-13-2010, 06:16
165 gr. Golden Sabre

Plenty of speed (1400 fps) and plenty of weight, which should translate into good penitration. The Golden Sabre also has proven to get good expansion. Therefor, it's what I trust my defense to.

Forgoten214
03-13-2010, 16:35
165 gr. Golden Sabre

Plenty of speed (1400 fps) and plenty of weight, which should translate into good penetration. The Golden Sabre also has proven to get good expansion. Therefor, it's what I trust my defense to.

Yea but they are not the bonded Sabres. They probably wont expand as well as the Gold Dots and will have a higher probability of jacket separation.

Taterhead
03-14-2010, 00:03
Just so we're all clear, I was SPECIFICALLY responding to Forgoten214's statement (or conclusion) that "[Hickok45] claims it was not very accurate." My sense of the vid was that was what Hickok45 concluded.

...

I'm just questioning whether, given what was shown, the 230gn 10mm load got a fair shot in this one.

:cool:

Your points are precisely correct about measuring accuracy, but I did not gather that ammunition accuracy was the issue in this case.

I think Hickok's point was that the round was accurate, but that it was not appropriately stabilized in the stock Glock barrel. This was more of a function of a round not working in a given setup - and that happens. It was clear that keyholing was in play. I have personally witnessed that in my stock G20 with a different projectile. I don't need a benchrest to know that my bullets are not stable in flight.

agtman
03-14-2010, 10:58
Your points are precisely correct about measuring accuracy, but I did not gather that ammunition accuracy was the issue in this case.

I think Hickok's point was that the round was accurate, but that it was not appropriately stabilized in the stock Glock barrel. This was more of a function of a round not working in a given setup - and that happens.

It was clear that keyholing was in play. I have personally witnessed that in my stock G20 with a different projectile. I don't need a benchrest to know that my bullets are not stable in flight.

Okay, fair enough.

nickE10mm
03-15-2010, 01:26
I'd say that my favorite DT round is the 200gr XTP (Controlled Expansion) load... followed closely by the 180gr XTP and 200gr WFN BTB). The 200gr simply hits like a truck and penetrates like a demon. I WILL say that the 180gr XTP has been a touch more accurate for me, though. They are both wicked.

glockpirate20
03-15-2010, 20:27
Well I can tell you first hand that its not the shooter in Hickok's video, you can take the shooter out of the equation all day long and you will get about the same results everytime. I posted about this over in Hickok's thread. I set up two cardboard targets, one at 15 and one at 25 yards. I shot from various positions and even broke out the ole Pistol Bullshooter rest to see if it was me. NOPE. The 230gr round is random the majority of the time out of the stock glock barrel and even in my aftermarket 6" glock barrel. The only thing the 6" barrel did was clean up a few flyers and thats about it. From the Bullshooter rest my worse flyer was almost 3' off point of aim at 15yds with the stock barrel. I do not have a LWD barrel or any other land and groove rifled tube to test out to see what the results would be. Hickok did a good job with this one as he does in all his YT vids, and informed us of a problem (if you want to consider it that; I don't think it matters all that much anyways). Do your own tests, you will probably have the same results. Bottom line, the stock barrel is mediocre at best in stabilizing this round and the 6" glock barrel isn't far ahead.

ARRRGGHH!

uz2bUSMC
03-18-2010, 08:50
if not in a Police type situation (that is very very rare for a private citizen to be in) the 135s should be plenty bad-ass.


This is very untrue in a sense. All though you may not have the same scenarios as an LEO, your bullets may have to defeat the same type of barriers. As a private citizen must expect to have to fire through your own autoglass or door. Depending on your area, the bad guys will be wearing the same type of clothing, relative to weather, regardless if it is you they encounter or an LEO when they are doing their dirty work.

Angry Fist
03-18-2010, 14:45
This is very untrue in a sense. All though you may not have the same scenarios as an LEO, your bullets may have to defeat the same type of barriers. As a private citizen must expect to have to fire through your own autoglass or door. Depending on your area, the bad guys will be wearing the same type of clothing, relative to weather, regardless if it is you they encounter or an LEO when they are doing their dirty work.

+1... and I caught hell before for suggesting carrying 3 different mags, one being FMJ or hardcast lead for defeating light cover. Sometimes, even with big bad 10, a hollowpoint just won't do... :whistling:

uz2bUSMC
03-18-2010, 14:55
+1... and I caught hell before for suggesting carrying 3 different mags, one being FMJ or hardcast lead for defeating light cover. Sometimes, even with big bad 10, a hollowpoint just won't do... :whistling:

That's the problem, the big bad Ten has enough ***** to destroy it's own bullets! So sometimes, you're right, the HP won't do.:cool:

cowboywannabe
03-18-2010, 19:52
This is very untrue in a sense. All though you may not have the same scenarios as an LEO, your bullets may have to defeat the same type of barriers. As a private citizen must expect to have to fire through your own autoglass or door. Depending on your area, the bad guys will be wearing the same type of clothing, relative to weather, regardless if it is you they encounter or an LEO when they are doing their dirty work.

you must not undestand what i wrote. i didnt say that a private citizen wont have to shoot through car doors or windshields or house doors, i said it was very rare that they would have to do this (compared to Police who are much more likely to).

Angry Fist
03-18-2010, 20:04
you must not undestand what i wrote. i didnt say that a private citizen wont have to shoot through car doors or windshields or house doors, i said it was very rare that they would have to do this (compared to Police who are much more likely to).

I agree. Besides, the thread is about your favorite round... The 135 definitely is my favorite so far. Too much fun. Can't wait for an excuse to send a cooler to the other side! :whistling:

cowboywannabe
03-18-2010, 20:06
i wish i had a G29 to rip some of these 135s in.

uz2bUSMC
03-18-2010, 21:02
you must not undestand what i wrote. i didnt say that a private citizen wont have to shoot through car doors or windshields or house doors, i said it was very rare that they would have to do this (compared to Police who are much more likely to).



verywell

uz2bUSMC
03-18-2010, 21:06
I agree. Besides, the thread is about your favorite round... The 135 definitely is my favorite so far. Too much fun. Can't wait for an excuse to send a cooler to the other side! :whistling:

For the record, the 135's are my fave, just limited in practical usage... but they are fun as hell. Nasty little bastards make a mess of things!

Angry Fist
03-18-2010, 21:51
10mm ammo test this weekend! DT 135, Win 175 ST, Hornady 155 XTP, BB 180 GD, UMC 180. Metal chair seat in front of small igloo. Pics... :tongueout: Any other suggestions?

nickE10mm
03-18-2010, 22:08
I just realized that I'd commented earlier in this thread and didn't comment on the video.

I WOULD like to mention that I've experienced the same issues with the DT Beartooth 230gr loads in my G29, G20 and a few times in my Razorback...when benchrested, at 25 yards. The bullet seemed to be keyholing in the target and, even when it wasn't, the load simply DIDN'T group well at all. I fired DT 200gr XTP, DT 180 XTP and Remington UMC's, all benchrested, and they ALL grouped extremely tight but them dang Beartooths didn't group well in ANY gun I shot. They DID shoot quite well out of my 6" fitted BarSto in my old longslide Glock, though. I think that, while Agtman is right about this not being a good way to test accuracy, we can still deduce that this load simply doesn't group well in SOME guns.

Just my .02.

Man, I can't wait until spring to get out in the woods and do some serious shootin'. :cool:

Forgoten214
03-18-2010, 22:32
Is anyone going to test the 155gr Barnes load by DT? If so what kind of numbers are to be expected?

Also with the 165gr Gold Dot loading. Does anyone experience any jacket separation or deformation of the bullets in their testing? What kind of expansion/penetration should you expect from this round loaded by DT? Their website and info says 1.02 expansion but that is kind of hard to believe coming from a .40 cal diameter.

nickE10mm
03-18-2010, 22:38
Is anyone going to test the 155gr Barnes load by DT? If so what kind of numbers are to be expected?

Also with the 165gr Gold Dot loading. Does anyone experience any jacket separation or deformation of the bullets in their testing? What kind of expansion/penetration should you expect from this round loaded by DT? Their website and info says 1.02 expansion but that is kind of hard to believe coming from a .40 cal diameter.

I hope they get the 155 Barnes data up, too....

About the DT 165 GD loading.... I did a test a couple years back with this (and several other 10mm loads) in water jugs. I found the expansion numbers on the 165gr to be quite amazing. Here is a pic:

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9375/dsc000139mp.jpg

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1871/dsc000171ho.jpg

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9056/dsc000166rf.jpg

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/345/dsc000142gb.jpg

Far right 165gr DT bullet was from a 6" longslide barrel, the middle 165gr DT bullet was from my Kimber 5" barrel and the one on the left... well, i'm sure you guys can figure it out ;)

I would say that, had I been shooting in gelatin instead of water, that 1.01" expansion sounds about right. INCREDIBLE expansion on them puppies. Hope this helps

uz2bUSMC
03-19-2010, 05:14
Is anyone going to test the 155gr Barnes load by DT? If so what kind of numbers are to be expected?

Also with the 165gr Gold Dot loading. Does anyone experience any jacket separation or deformation of the bullets in their testing? What kind of expansion/penetration should you expect from this round loaded by DT? Their website and info says 1.02 expansion but that is kind of hard to believe coming from a .40 cal diameter.

I've fired the 155grn GD into a 8-9lb. pork shoulder and it was fragnasty. This was from a 6"LWD bbl. I haven't tried the 165grn yet.

Here's 2 before pics of the shoulder (135grn DT).
193691
193692

And the after...
193693
193694

ETA: The 155grn GD from DT does just about the same in the pork shoulder from my 6".

agtman
03-19-2010, 16:14
I've fired the 155grn GD into a 8-9lb. pork shoulder and it was fragnasty. This was from a 6"LWD bbl. I haven't tried the 165grn yet.

Here's 2 before pics of the shoulder (135grn DT).
193691
193692

And the after...
193693
193694

ETA: The 155grn GD from DT does just about the same in the pork shoulder from my 6".

Excellent! Another "beef-n-bullet" test.

Here's one I did way back with DT's early (and hot) 165gn & 180gn GSHP loads (scroll down for the pics):

http://www.bren-ten.com/agtman/id6.html

:cool:

uz2bUSMC
03-19-2010, 18:18
Excellent! Another "beef-n-bullet" test.

Here's one I did way back with DT's early (and hot) 165gn & 180gn GSHP loads (scroll down for the pics):

http://www.bren-ten.com/agtman/id6.html

:cool:

Oh, I'm very familiar your test. I like checkin it out again from time to time.:supergrin:

Forgoten214
03-19-2010, 18:23
I hope they get the 155 Barnes data up, too....

About the DT 165 GD loading.... I did a test a couple years back with this (and several other 10mm loads) in water jugs. I found the expansion numbers on the 165gr to be quite amazing. Here is a pic:

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9375/dsc000139mp.jpg

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1871/dsc000171ho.jpg

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9056/dsc000166rf.jpg

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/345/dsc000142gb.jpg

Far right 165gr DT bullet was from a 6" longslide barrel, the middle 165gr DT bullet was from my Kimber 5" barrel and the one on the left... well, i'm sure you guys can figure it out ;)

I would say that, had I been shooting in gelatin instead of water, that 1.01" expansion sounds about right. INCREDIBLE expansion on them puppies. Hope this helps

I've fired the 155grn GD into a 8-9lb. pork shoulder and it was fragnasty. This was from a 6"LWD bbl. I haven't tried the 165grn yet.

Here's 2 before pics of the shoulder (135grn DT).
193691
193692

And the after...
193693
193694

ETA: The 155grn GD from DT does just about the same in the pork shoulder from my 6".

Expansion looks nice. Why did the pedals come off on the right GD? Why did the 155gr fragment and the 165gr did not? Has anyone tested the 180gr Gold Dot by DT or Buffalo Bore?

I'd like to see a comparison done between the 10mm 165gr Gold Dot and .45 ACP 200 +P Speer Gold Dot loading.

uz2bUSMC
03-19-2010, 18:33
Expansion looks nice. Why did the pedals come off on the right GD? Why did the 155gr fragment and the 165gr did not? Has anyone tested the 180gr Gold Dot by DT or Buffalo Bore?

I'd like to see a comparison done between the 10mm 165gr Gold Dot and .45 ACP 200 +P Speer Gold Dot loading.

The 155grn fragged because of the 6" bbl adding more velocity. Once the speed broke the bullets threshold, the bullet just "let go" so to speak. The 165grn would probably still come apart outta the 6", but not as bad (I'm guessing). This would all would be less dramatic outta the standard length barrel, but I'm sure you would probably lose a couple of pedals from the 155grn in pure water... add some denim and the results will probably be different.

Angry Fist
03-19-2010, 18:45
Well boys, mama said no to the cooler idea... :crying: I did put 2 sets of gallon jugs (2 wide, 2 deep) behind the metal chair seat. Chair is NOT armor... :rofl:Blew up the first jug, and went sideways thru the other jug. Could not recover any of the slugs. It was fun. DT 135 and Win ST 175 performed about the same.

uz2bUSMC
03-19-2010, 19:13
Well boys, mama said no to the cooler idea... :crying: I did put 2 sets of gallon jugs (2 wide, 2 deep) behind the metal chair seat. Chair is NOT armor... :rofl:Blew up the first jug, and went sideways thru the other jug. Could not recover any of the slugs. It was fun. DT 135 and Win ST 175 performed about the same.

Ah, young Jedi, you must learn that it is better to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission... and mama will be one step behind.:whistling:

leadslinger13
03-19-2010, 19:55
here are some youtube 10mm tests more good real world tests:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmJi36o1HkE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4hivTDKO44&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZKxB8GATLU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kptr5OOLOHk&feature=related

this guy provides interesting perspective:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idzqJ6TFH9Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjTOMrLCs2c&feature=fvw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsY2RmAToqA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5N4AJkzp4c&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAjh59bPs_o&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moi7c8iwfnc&feature=related

Forgoten214
03-20-2010, 04:04
here are some youtube 10mm tests more good real world tests:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmJi36o1HkE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4hivTDKO44&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZKxB8GATLU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kptr5OOLOHk&feature=related

this guy provides interesting perspective:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idzqJ6TFH9Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjTOMrLCs2c&feature=fvw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsY2RmAToqA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5N4AJkzp4c&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAjh59bPs_o&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moi7c8iwfnc&feature=related

Meh those are kind of old.

leadslinger13
03-20-2010, 06:09
they may be old but the info still pertinent

Iceman cHucK
03-21-2010, 09:50
I like the DT165GD and 200xtp. Also carry the 230hardcast in the woods. Now trying the 155Barnes, expansion is great, but have not yet done enough penetration tests. Wish DT would publish Gell tests on the 155Barnes; I get 1257fps with G20 stock barrel and 1313 from Glock 6". This is below advertised, which I have experienced on ALL of DT's loadings!

cowboywannabe
03-21-2010, 09:59
I like the DT165GD and 200xtp. Also carry the 230hardcast in the woods. Now trying the 155Barnes, expansion is great, but have not yet done enough penetration tests. Wish DT would publish Gell tests on the 155Barnes; I get 1257fps with G20 stock barrel and 1313 from Glock 6". This is below advertised, which I have experienced on ALL of DT's loadings!

maybe he is not using a stock G20 for his velocity listings.

Forgoten214
03-21-2010, 10:03
maybe he is not using a stock G20 for his velocity listings.

Yea or maybe he takes his chronograph readings ontop of Mt Everest.

uz2bUSMC
03-21-2010, 10:11
maybe he is not using a stock G20 for his velocity listings.

I think he has cut back on the throttle on purpose... possibly for a few reasons... but I'm not gonna judge, yet.

I've saved a few DT135grn and 155grn'ers from a few years ago, if I ever get around to ordering a chrono I'm going to compare new and old to see the difference.

cowboywannabe
03-21-2010, 13:04
I think he has cut back on the throttle on purpose... possibly for a few reasons... but I'm not gonna judge, yet.

I've saved a few DT135grn and 155grn'ers from a few years ago, if I ever get around to ordering a chrono I'm going to compare new and old to see the difference.

well hell, if he has reduced his loading what makes his 135 grainer better than Cor-Bons?

what made his loads stand out was that he was the only one loading a wide variety of 10mm loads that were faster than any of the competition. are you saying now he has purposely put himself back in the middle of the competition? if thats the case why buy from him?

BB still loads true 10mm loads but only the heavy ones.

has DT gone the way of the Win STHP, and Georgia Arms and Cor-Bon when it comes to the 10mm?

uz2bUSMC
03-21-2010, 13:24
well hell, if he has reduced his loading what makes his 135 grainer better than Cor-Bons?

what made his loads stand out was that he was the only one loading a wide variety of 10mm loads that were faster than any of the competition. are you saying now he has purposely put himself back in the middle of the competition? if thats the case why buy from him?

BB still loads true 10mm loads but only the heavy ones.

has DT gone the way of the Win STHP, and Georgia Arms and Cor-Bon when it comes to the 10mm?

I agree and I don't know. I have faith in Mike but he needs to change a few things to keep his loyalists!

Forgoten214
03-21-2010, 13:29
I agree and I don't know. I have faith in Mike but he needs to change a few things to keep his loyalists!

Meh, it's alright. He's cutting measures. His customer service has been poor of late. His stock is also low most of the time. Has been cutting corners to save money and jacking up prices of his rounds.

:upeyes:

Buffalo Bore and Winchester Silver-Tip is what I buy now. :supergrin:

cowboywannabe
03-21-2010, 14:14
seriously, i dont know if DT is putting out lower velocity stuff or not.

but if there comes to be a concensis that he is based on current field reports i wont buy from them any more.

ive only bought about 500 rounds of DT ammo, being 165gr GD and 135gr Noslers. the 135s are rated at 1608 f.p.s. from a glock 20's 4.6" bbl. if the DT loading is less than that than it is no better than the CB load is it?


damn, just when i thought i found a true 10mm loader with reasonable prices.....

cowboywannabe
03-21-2010, 14:57
just went to DT's site and he still lists the 135gr. Nosler at 1600 f.p.s. from a G20's 4.6" bbl.

so now either he is lieing or some of the folks on here are.

Forgoten214
03-21-2010, 15:00
:crying:just went to DT's site and he still lists the 135gr. Nosler at 1600 f.p.s. from a G20's 4.6" bbl.

so now either he is lieing or some of the folks on here are.

He's lieing to promote sales.

It's been well documented on here and 10mmtalk that his loads are severely overrated.

What are your alternative options though?

Iceman cHucK
03-21-2010, 15:04
All of my 10mm and 45ACP chrono results for DT have been over 100fps below what is printed on the box. I have emailed DT about this and not gotten a response begining a couple of years ago. A few others on this forum have reported the same. He advertises on the box that it is from a stock G20. DT, I've heard, is at +6000' elevation; I'm at 1200' which could account for some difference.
I like DT ammo and will continue to buy it , but.....and this is a big BUT, I have a problem with a company advertising one thing and selling another! DT has had a long time to get on this forum and explain, but still nothing!
Thought maybe it was my chrono, but have tested other brands of ammo and gotten advertised results.
ANYONE out there experienced what I have?

cowboywannabe
03-21-2010, 15:15
ok. for the sake of arguing, lets say his velocities are lower than advertised for what ever reason. you say what other alternative is there?

well, if you want mid priced mid powered 10mm stay with D.T. or go to G.A. if you want high dollar mid power 10mm go with Cor-Bon. if you want high dollar full power 10mm there is B.B. though they only make heavy loads.

of course Reeds ammo looks pretty darn good for lower edge full power and descent prices.

so, there you have it. no reason to stay with one company if they dont offer anything better than the others....you essencially shop with your dollar.

cowboywannabe
03-21-2010, 15:40
i just googled "double tap velocities" and the only independent video i found was of some guy who was testing the montana gold bullet that D.T. has been using lately.

and guess what. the D.T. advertised velocites were a bit slower but not much slower than what it says on the box, but the montana gold D.T. is using is a sorry ass bullet judging on the test that guy did.

i guess one day im going to have to invest in a chrono to see what i get from the older than a couple months ago D.T. ammo i have.

Taterhead
03-21-2010, 18:28
Meh, it's alright. He's cutting measures. His customer service has been poor of late. His stock is also low most of the time. Has been cutting corners to save money and jacking up prices of his rounds.

:upeyes:

Buffalo Bore and Winchester Silver-Tip is what I buy now. :supergrin:

Now Silvertips are one that disappointed. My chrony results showed a 5 shot string average velocity of only 1148 fps (512 lb/ft). It was a very warm day so I expected these to run a bit hotter. Factory claimed velocity is 1290 fps. One thing positive to say is that they velocity spreads were pretty tight.

cowboywannabe
03-21-2010, 18:31
the Win STHP is lame regarding 10mm power. all it is a slightly warmed .40cal with a longer than needed casing.

Taterhead
03-21-2010, 18:36
i just googled "double tap velocities" and the only independent video i found was of some guy who was testing the montana gold bullet that D.T. has been using lately.

and guess what. the D.T. advertised velocites were a bit slower but not much slower than what it says on the box, but the montana gold D.T. is using is a sorry ass bullet judging on the test that guy did.

i guess one day im going to have to invest in a chrono to see what i get from the older than a couple months ago D.T. ammo i have.

Buffalo Bore loaded the 180 gr Montana Gold JHP too beginning some time last year. At least they can be credited with removing "Gold Dot" from the box.

Chronographs are a useful tool - especially when developing rifle loads. Just remember to, ahem, avoid looking at your chrony when firing off rounds. One tends to shoot where one looks. At least that is what a friend told me. :whistling:

I've been wondering about terminal ballistics of the 180 gr MG JHP. Can you throw a link to that video that you mentioned? Thanks

FWIW, I've always had great results in dealing with DT.

uz2bUSMC
03-21-2010, 18:37
the Win STHP is lame regarding 10mm power. all it is a slightly warmed .40cal with a longer than needed casing.

yep...

gator378
03-23-2010, 21:33
I picked up a G20sf and am looking to pick up some ammo. I'm just starting to get into the 10mm game and am having some trouble trying to pick out what kind of DT ammo I want/need to order.

I decided to go with Mike's variety pack (200 rounds) where I get to pick 4 different kinds of rounds. Now I'm trying to figure what to get.

My 20sf is primarily going to be my SD pistol mostly in the woods while camping/hiking. I also want to try some handgun hunting next season, mostly bore/hogs (waiting on my 6" barrel). I will try and use it as my EDC (once skilled enough to do so with it), but I fear it will be too big.

And yes, I want to have a load strong enough to deter black bear..lots of em up in my neck of the woods. I have to look out my window every time I leave the house.

And lastly, a nice HD load. I am in no way worried about over penetration, I live in the middle of nowhere so if I ever have to use my 10mm in the house, I don't have to worry about a round passing through 4 other houses. I bought the 10mm G20sf because of how much fun I had blasting HOT rounds in my buddies 10mm. I'm still in awe!

What's the meanest load for 2 legged zombies and the best load for stopping big black bears?? I'm sure this has come up many times, but it looks like Mike has a few more different kinds of rounds that are not listed in the DT gelatin sticky. Thanks for the help guys!!

DHI load the 200 grain XTP. Also check out the Sierra 190 grain FPJ . I used for packing in the Rockies. Deep Penetration, fast and accurate. DT 200 and 230 grain Hard Cast flat point. I have used 44 Mag 250 grains hard castSWC and they are very nasty. Big holes and deep penetration.

gator378
03-23-2010, 21:36
^Very interesting! Has anyone else experienced this with the 230gr. cast rounds with the stock barrel?

DH

Not stock barrel which has been retired. I guess it is a spider home now. But the 200 and 230 grain cast work great in the Barstow barrel.

nickE10mm
03-23-2010, 23:47
Now Silvertips are one that disappointed. My chrony results showed a 5 shot string average velocity of only 1148 fps (512 lb/ft). It was a very warm day so I expected these to run a bit hotter. Factory claimed velocity is 1290 fps. One thing positive to say is that they velocity spreads were pretty tight.

Yea, however, keep in the mind that the 175gr Silvertips are listed at 1290fps from a 5.5" test barrel. There really aren't any stock guns that run a 5.5" barrel.

agtman
03-24-2010, 10:58
Yea, however, keep in the mind that the 175gr Silvertips are listed at 1290fps from a 5.5" test barrel. There really aren't any stock guns that run a 5.5" barrel.

True, ... but even when chrono-ed from a 6" 10mm set-up - like out of Glock's 6" "hunting" tube - users still aren't getting that alleged, mythical and always suspect "1290fps." :upeyes:

You know, ... sort of like Bigfoot. :whistling:

You hear all the talk about it, but when they grab videos and cameras and go looking for it, no one actually sees it. :shocked:

:cool:

nickE10mm
03-24-2010, 11:00
True, ... but even when chrono-ed from a 6" 10mm set-up - like out of Glock's 6" "hunting" tube - users still aren't getting that alleged, mythical and always suspect "1290fps." :upeyes:

You know, ... sort of like Bigfoot. :whistling:

You hear all the talk about it, but when they grab videos and cameras and go looking for it, no one actually sees it. :shocked:

:cool:

Exactly, hehe.... :) such is the ammo game.

Forgoten214
03-24-2010, 13:28
True, ... but even when chrono-ed from a 6" 10mm set-up - like out of Glock's 6" "hunting" tube - users still aren't getting that alleged, mythical and always suspect "1290fps." :upeyes:

You know, ... sort of like Bigfoot. :whistling:

You hear all the talk about it, but when they grab videos and cameras and go looking for it, no one actually sees it. :shocked:

:cool:

Yea and DT is any better? :upeyes:

The only people I notice that make a reliable honest load are Buffalo Bore but they don't have any loads suitable for self defense.

cowboywannabe
03-24-2010, 16:38
Buffalo Bore loaded the 180 gr Montana Gold JHP too beginning some time last year. At least they can be credited with removing "Gold Dot" from the box.

Chronographs are a useful tool - especially when developing rifle loads. Just remember to, ahem, avoid looking at your chrony when firing off rounds. One tends to shoot where one looks. At least that is what a friend told me. :whistling:

I've been wondering about terminal ballistics of the 180 gr MG JHP. Can you throw a link to that video that you mentioned? Thanks
FWIW, I've always had great results in dealing with DT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsGnDtgVHc0


sorry, i guess i should have stated originally that it was a 9mm round "tested". but if the bullet construction is consistant it would still seem like a poor choice for personal defense against human attackers in 10mm also.

agtman
03-24-2010, 17:28
Yea and DT is any better? :upeyes:

The only people I notice that make a reliable honest load are Buffalo Bore but they don't have any loads suitable for self defense.

:upeyes: You're kidding right? I wrote the original field report on DT's 10mm Golden Saber loads:

http://www.bren-ten.com/agtman/id6.html

Plus, I've shot all but a few of DT's current 10mm line-up, multiple cases of some loads.

What have you done except bad-mouth DT? :whistling:

So, yeah, from a position of hands-on experience, I can say: any of DT's loads are WAY better than Winchester's only .40-level "10mm" STHP load. :upeyes:

As for BB, you're also incorrect.

While pricey in comparison to DT, BB's 180gn 10mm JHP is quite "suitable for self-defense."

Also, they offer a Norma-duplicating 200gn FMJ load (@ 1200fps) that would be a decent woods load for defense against 4-legged or 2-legged predators.

:cool:

cowboywannabe
03-24-2010, 17:37
im not on the DT band wagon lately based solely on what others have stated as their personal displeasures with them so far.

but i have a few hundreds rounds of DT 10mm with the proper bullet loaded in the casing, must be an older stock?

and, with the exception of the lame ass montana gold bullet (for usual ccw reasons), i feel that even if the DT velocities are exaderated a bit they are still more than anything you get from winchest STHP or any other big three company.

BB is doing pretty well reputation wise but their ammo is expensive as hell (for me). so DT gives me a more affordable option. now if theyd only get rid of that B.S. target load MG and use some kind of bullet meant for private citizen ccw. hell even the "crappy" wwb h.p. round would be better.

Angry Fist
03-24-2010, 18:25
I just ordered a box of 230 WFNGC, and 155 Barnes... we'll see how they do! :whistling:

nickE10mm
03-25-2010, 20:04
Forgoten - yes, most companies Winchester, DT and Buffalo Bore included, exaggerate their velocities at least a little but. From the tests that a few people have done, INCLUDING agtman's long ago, most have found that DT comes "closer" to their advertised velocities than other companies. Not to say that any one company is perfect, of course.

FWIW, I'd be confident with a regular, generic .40 level 10mm HP all the way up to DT and BB stuff.... for personal defense. For hunting or special applications, however, I'd want the hottest I could control.

DrtyHarry
03-26-2010, 13:23
I placed a rather large order for a wide variety of of ammo from DT. Everything from 135gr Nolslers to 230gr WFNGC. I plan to do a wide variety of tests, not just on paper. I will post my findings when testing is complete.

DH

Forgoten214
03-26-2010, 14:07
I'm looking forward to seeing some results on the 155gr Barnes load.

Angry Fist
03-27-2010, 21:56
I'm looking forward to seeing some results on the 155gr Barnes load.

Will let you know Monday or so...

I shot some DT, but today I loaded up some old Hornady I picked up last week, and could not believe the muzzle blast... It was FIRE! Much more than DT135 or BB.:shocked:

nickE10mm
03-27-2010, 22:26
Will let you know Monday or so...

I shot some DT, but today I loaded up some old Hornady I picked up last week, and could not believe the muzzle blast... It was FIRE! Much more than DT135 or BB.:shocked:

Yea, Mike @ DT designed his loads for low muzzle flash with his proprietary powder which would explain that.

Angry Fist
03-28-2010, 00:10
Yea, Mike @ DT designed his loads for low muzzle flash with his proprietary powder which would explain that.

That's good to know. But the Hornady sure was fun! column of flame the size of a 3 liter soda bottle...:wow:

DrtyHarry
03-28-2010, 07:20
Will let you know Monday or so...

I shot some DT, but today I loaded up some old Hornady I picked up last week, and could not believe the muzzle blast... It was FIRE! Much more than DT135 or BB.:shocked:

What Hornady load did you use?


DH

Angry Fist
03-28-2010, 09:25
What Hornady load did you use?


DH

Hornady Custom 155gr HP/XTP red box

LOT# 020035

Muzzle: 1265
50 yards: 1119
100 yds: 1020

No FPE given...

Taterhead
03-28-2010, 13:39
Hornady Custom 155gr HP/XTP red box

LOT# 020035

Muzzle: 1265
50 yards: 1119
100 yds: 1020

No FPE given...

The muzzle engergy from these numbers computes to about 551 lb/ft.

Angry Fist
03-28-2010, 19:04
The muzzle engergy from these numbers computes to about 551 lb/ft.

Thanks!. So... much more bark than bite. At least they tons of fun anyway! :cool:

texas 48
04-04-2010, 10:09
I use their 165gr Golden sabers for carry. Not many bear or other animals that the 165gr would not handle here in south central Texas and I don't spend any significant time in the brush. Because of a recent experience with DT doubling an order and hitting my card for the added product then denying they did it, plus the ammo it up to 41.00 a box I will load my own from new components. I can get the same or better velocities from my 165gr loadings for 1/3 the cost. DT USED to be a good reliable company but times have changed and they will see little if any of my business in the future.