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gatorhugger
03-12-2010, 02:37
If you are walking out of store, some man asks for change,
then gets obnoxious, then gets in your face and imples he is
going to "kick your 'butt;"
Do you -
1. pull your concealed weapon and tell them to back off
2. Pull your weapon and proceed to unleash hell
3. Wait until you are pushed to pull weapon
4 wait until you are punched to pull weapon
5. Refuse to draw weapon even if punches are raining down on you.
because other guy doesn't have a weapon.

Not a far fethced scenario. I have had this happen, and never pulled my
gun, we both went down swinging until security got there. On hindsight I think I should have shot the SOB.
One punch in the wrong side of head could have killed this old man.
Or he could have pulled a knife and fatally stabbed me while we were on the ground or wrestling around.
But then again, maybe I did the right thing since I am still a free man.
Tough call.

GreyEclipse
03-12-2010, 03:56
I would have kicked him in the nuts and walked away.:whistling:

SafetyGuy83
03-12-2010, 04:28
One punch in the wrong side of head could have killed this old man.

Well it depends if you think an old man is a deadly threat. Although it sounds like he gave you a run for your money!:tongueout:

PlayboyPenguin
03-12-2010, 04:30
I would do my best to get away from him. I would not want to get in a wrestling match with a gun on me. That can go very wrong very fast. However, I would not draw my weapon unless I had no other choice. That includes the choice of running away.

Glock-it-to-me
03-12-2010, 04:31
I'm a biker and look/dress like a biker. When riding, I'm wearing my patch. Even the average panhandler tends to avoid physical confrontations with such folks.

rohanreginald
03-12-2010, 08:09
Well it depends if you think an old man is a deadly threat. Although it sounds like he gave you a run for your money!:tongueout:

The OP is refering to himself as "the old man".

I think the OP did the right thing. I am sure that was scary, but not sure if your life was really endangered and that is one sucky position to be in. Escalation of force is always something to be aware of.

freespirit34
03-12-2010, 08:56
I'd have opened up a can of "whoop ass" on him. The only problem would be if he grabbed my gun while I was stomping his butt. Then I'd really have to destroy him.

Angry Fist
03-12-2010, 09:02
Time to open THIS up...

http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz13/MO_FUGGAZ/313px-Whoop_ass.jpg?t=1268406079

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Esox357
03-12-2010, 12:40
Not a lawyer but there is something called disparity of force, that can range from multiple attackers, age, size, man vs women, known history of the person (aka professional fighter), medical condition, ect. A punch to the mouth doesn't justify killing someone, a person beating you for dear life is a different story. Esox357.

degoodman
03-12-2010, 13:34
This is why options are good, and having a firearm as the only one is not.

A situation such as this is custom designed for a little a$#hole repellant, AKA OC or mace. Clearly state your intention to leave the situation, take a step back to begin your departure and if the BG doesn't quit, paint the fence.

If lethal means are the only tool you have other than your fists and feet, you're in a pickle. In Ohio, the legal standard is not just AOJ, but the BG must also have comitted an overt act that establishes his intention to visit GBI or death on you, and verbal threats alone do not meet that standard.

The responses for you don't change much, clearly state your intention to disengage and leave, begin making moves to initiate your retreat, and if the BG continues to press forward, you have an additional articulable fact aiding your case for justification if you have to act. The problem remains that he has just as much right to the public street that you do, and until he commits that overt act that places you in immediate jeopardy of GBI or death, your hands are tied from a lethal force perspective.

Once fists start flying, the game is changed. If you're advancing in age, and you have cardiac conditions, high blood pressure, arthritis, etc that limit your ability to engage him physically you may be in a position to shoot that I, as a reasonably fit man in my 30's who can still get 275 off the bench, will not be in. I'm going to have to scrap for a while, or paint the fence.

zoyter2
03-12-2010, 13:56
I would do my best to get away from him. I would not want to get in a wrestling match with a gun on me. That can go very wrong very fast. However, I would not draw my weapon unless I had no other choice. That includes the choice of running away.


Your lack of blood thirst and aversion to killing anyone who looks cross-ways at you will NOT help you fit in here.

The correct answer is, of course, kill everyone in sight. Then spit on the bodies. :supergrin:

Angry Fist
03-12-2010, 14:15
Couldn't resist... needed a new sig! :whistling:

PlayboyPenguin
03-12-2010, 14:21
Your lack of blood thirst and aversion to killing anyone who looks cross-ways at you will NOT help you fit in here.

The correct answer is, of course, kill everyone in sight. Then spit on the bodies. :supergrin:

What can I say...as I have gotten older I have become somewhat wuss-ified. I just do not see the appeal in fighting just to prove a point or over pride. If I am not armed it might be a different story, but since I am almost always armed I avoid trouble at all costs. Luckily I am not the type of guy that gets harassed alot. I am not the biggest guy, but I am a good 6'-6'1" and weight in at 220-225lbs so there is usually a more appealing target to be found. Plus my friends say I have the "crazy eyes." That helps keep people away. :)

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r89/PlayboyPenguin/Self/ShavedHead.jpg

LoadedTech
03-12-2010, 14:32
Sandles and socks PBP??? Come on man.:rofl:

PlayboyPenguin
03-12-2010, 14:37
Sandles and socks PBP??? Come on man.:rofl:
Hey! that sandle and sock wearing goober spent a lot of time in Europe at that time of his life...and I would expect a little more respect from someone using one of my drawings as their avatar. :tongueout:

volsbear
03-12-2010, 14:39
Not a lawyer but there is something called disparity of force, that can range from multiple attackers, age, size, man vs women, known history of the person (aka professional fighter), medical condition, ect. A punch to the mouth doesn't justify killing someone, a person beating you for dear life is a different story. Esox357.

Exactly. Additional considerations is the laws in your state, county, and city as well as the political tendencies/ambitions of the local prosecutor.

dosei
03-12-2010, 14:42
If you are walking out of store, some man asks for change,
then gets obnoxious, then gets in your face and imples he is
going to "kick your 'butt;"
Do you -
1. pull your concealed weapon and tell them to back off
2. Pull your weapon and proceed to unleash hell
3. Wait until you are pushed to pull weapon
4 wait until you are punched to pull weapon
5. Refuse to draw weapon even if punches are raining down on you.
because other guy doesn't have a weapon.

Not a far fethced scenario. I have had this happen, and never pulled my
gun, we both went down swinging until security got there. On hindsight I think I should have shot the SOB.
One punch in the wrong side of head could have killed this old man.
Or he could have pulled a knife and fatally stabbed me while we were on the ground or wrestling around.
But then again, maybe I did the right thing since I am still a free man.
Tough call.

In my experience, it is the persons mouth that gets them into, or out of, this type of situation. And while there are exceptions to this....they are exceedingly rare. For those exceedingly rare exceptions, knowing how to do more than fight John Wayne style is very helpful (blocks, throws, joint locks, pressure points, what bones are REALLY easy to break, etc.). I have trained in several martial arts (Karate, Judo, Tae Kwon Do & Aikido). The one that I have found to be hands down the most useful is Aikido.

JETHRO38
03-12-2010, 15:12
Sandles and socks PBP??? Come on man.:rofl:

...:rofl::supergrin:

LoadedTech
03-12-2010, 16:58
You drew this avatar?

mdhandyman
03-12-2010, 17:05
An that shirt definitely does not go with them shoes. :rofl:

ElectricZombie
03-12-2010, 17:29
I'd only pull my weapon if there was distance and my physical response didn't get the reaction I wanted.

PlayboyPenguin
03-12-2010, 17:41
You drew this avatar?
Yup, all except the lettering on the t-shirt. That I added with photoshop. :)

SafetyGuy83
03-12-2010, 20:35
The OP is refering to himself as "the old man".

I think the OP did the right thing. I am sure that was scary, but not sure if your life was really endangered and that is one sucky position to be in. Escalation of force is always something to be aware of.

You are correct sir. My apologies. I think it would depend what state you are in as to whether an unarmed man presents a deadly threat. To me it certainly is. I have seen people get knocked out and the other individual continues to beat them. No doubt this is life threatening.

LApm9
03-13-2010, 10:49
If you are walking out of store, some man asks for change,
then gets obnoxious, then gets in your face and imples he is
going to "kick your 'butt;"
Do you -
1. pull your concealed weapon and tell them to back off
2. Pull your weapon and proceed to unleash hell
3. Wait until you are pushed to pull weapon
4 wait until you are punched to pull weapon
5. Refuse to draw weapon even if punches are raining down on you.
because other guy doesn't have a weapon.

Not a far fethced scenario. I have had this happen, and never pulled my
gun, we both went down swinging until security got there. On hindsight I think I should have shot the SOB.
One punch in the wrong side of head could have killed this old man.
Or he could have pulled a knife and fatally stabbed me while we were on the ground or wrestling around.
But then again, maybe I did the right thing since I am still a free man.
Tough call.

You did fine. These situations develop fast and unexpectedly.

In an after action review, one could note that "distance is your friend". Personally, strange people intent on getting close to me provoke me to be alert. My training is to first, if possible, run away. That means running (not walking) away, no matter how stupid it looks, because the "new friend" will not be prepared to deal with this at this stage in the game. If that is not possible, and danger/contact is imminent (you are grabbed, etc.), a reflexive (very fast!!!) kick to the kneecap or shin is in order (depending on how close you are). Then run like heck.

My old MA instructor used to drill into us that most folks got hurt because they were too embarrassed to RUN from trouble.

I think a modest repertoire of unarmed defensive skills (you don't have to be a match for Chuck Norris!!!) is very useful.

squirrelsniper
03-14-2010, 08:44
I always try to keep in mind what my father told me "If you ever pull a weapon, you'd better be ready and willing to use it. Otherwise you may end up eating it."

Personally, I would have probably sprayed him with OC (AKA: pepper spray) when it became apparent he was a physical threat. If a weapon appeared on or about him, then things may have progressed differently.

Fly-n-hi
03-15-2010, 09:39
If I was kicking your ***** or getting ready to kick your ***** and you pulled a gun on me that would piss me off. How dare you keep me from being able to bust you up.

MacG22
03-15-2010, 11:17
I am not an attorney. My comments are only my opinion, and represent conclusions I have made as a result of my own private research into CCW law and the applicable case law. For work I travel and as a result carry in multiple states... so I've had to do a lot of research and this is what I've come to believe about the specific situation you posed. I wanted my base CCW training to be consistent for the states I carried in (some strict, some relatively free), and not to have to be adapted on the fly depending on where I was, because I saw that as a dangerous situation for me, legally. The possibility of a mistake was high.

There are a few considerations here:

1. Was lethal force justified in your state? This is something you ought to know, RIGHT AWAY, by the time any altercation begins... no matter how quickly. You are not required, mid beating, to determine if the beating could possibly kill you or not. The biggest questions for many states is, "Could I get away or not?" If you could not run or get away--at any point of the escalation of the situation-- then you'll be safe for almost all states. Some do not require a person to flee first (as my state does not). Also, some states are iffy if the other person is not holding a weapon. If it's some sort of "tussle", lethal force may not yet be justified. If it is an attack or a beating, it will likely qualify so long as you did nothing to provoke it (as judged by witnesses and a jury).

2. Did you "see it coming"? Could you have walked away before it escalated? Did you do anything to provoke it ("get away from me, *******")?

3. If you were indeed ambushed, directly threatened ("I'm going to gut you, *******") and/or if you begin taking damage, you are most likely properly justified in using lethal force or the threat of lethal force. Fights are much quicker than most people know. Even if you "outmatch" your opponent by 150 lbs, if they place one good shot to your throat, head, or back of neck/head you can find yourself unconscious or the proud new owner of a permanent injury. And if you were rendered unconscious, while he's high on his adrenaline rush, even one stomp on your undefended body can cause critical injury or death. So if you end up in a fight, and if you believe the person intends to do you harm, and if you believe you are justified in the use/threat of lethal force, then I believe you should use it.

4. From my research and reading over the years, I've come to believe that you should not draw your weapon until you are READY and WILLING to use it, and until the moment when you WILL USE IT. Here's why:

a. Brandishing the weapon may have some value, but it has too many drawbacks. The threat of force may stop the attack, but it may also spin it wildly out of control. If the attacker is within 7 yards (which, if they aren't, you probably won't be justified in calling it an SD situation unless he has a gun or it is a hostage/holdup type of situation), then he can close that gap in less than a second or two and can take the weapon and use it against you much more quickly than people realize. This could also put bystanders at risk.

b. The only step before PRESENT and SHOOT that I've seen value in is to put the non gun hand out straight in a STOP! hand motion and to put the gun hand on the gun grip while in the holster. If possible this should happen concurrently with a strong, clear verbal warning, "STOP! I have a firearm and will defend myself if you attack!" Something clear, concise, and that will help clearly remind a jury that you provided a warning when witnesses are questioned.

c. When the gun is presented (let's say compressed ready extended to shooting position), that's the split second someone can turn to run or get the hell down. If not, then you should probably use your gun. Because, again, once it's out the whole world has changed for you already and whatever follows will happen lightening quick.


So to recap: I see only two ways that a wise person will use their weapon in an encounter. The first is to extend a warning hand (if possible) and to grip the gun in the holster while issuing a warning. This may be considered "threat of lethal force" in some states and should only be used if the situation qualifies. The other way is to draw the handgun with intent to fire it is the target does not instantly relent and if you have a proper backdrop for your shot.

Using the gun as a "warning" is dangerous and the CCW holder generally has the most to lose from that action. Using a gun to "cool someone down" is not really an approved legal use and is not well covered by state law. A gun is allowed to be used to dispel immanent lethal danger. By grabbing the grip and issuing a proper warning you are keeping the gun protected but WARNING him that you are about to use lawful force to defend yourself... you're not trying to use your gun as a negotiation tool (even something like "if you calm down I won't shoot you"). It's a delicate line but an important one if you read a lot of handgun/self defense case law.

As always, take my comments and interpret them only in light of your state's CCW laws and the case law that exists in your jurisdiction.

Jdog
03-15-2010, 11:36
On hindsight I think I should have shot the SOB.

I doubt you would be justified in court... depending on how liberal your state is you'll be a hero or a villain.
So you paralyze him for life (One of your hollowpoints logged in his spine) His relatives sue the crap out of you for medical damages and your legal fees bankrupt your butt.
So if you do really have to pop one in him, make sure it's lethal.
On the other hand a blackeye on both of you seems cheaper.

beatcop
03-15-2010, 17:46
I don't mean to short change the the thread, but this has been addressed in quite a number of posts. The problem is that folks with actual training and experience are drowned out by the less informed.

You need a foundation of knowledge to build upon...read some Massad Ayoob books for starters. I find him to be pretty much spot on. If you want a different perspective, make a connection in local law enforcement and take a look at their training outlines or read their departmental use-of-force policies, they should be readily available.

Some trainers will work up some "one-liners" to simplify the concepts...maybe something like: Don't kill anyone over a fair fight. Sounds to simplistic? Think about it a little.

You may be within your rights, but end up screwed. The main question is "Do I HAVE to shoot", not "CAN I shoot".

Pierre!
03-15-2010, 20:44
Well, I will pitch in my personal twist...

I have 3 disks collapsing in my neck and I am a surgery candidate.

Sharp blows to my face or body could cause me damage... as in complete disorientation, complete immobilization, and/or eliminate my ability to walk, run, or defend myself.

Learned this once when I fell on ice in the driveway and could not get up for 5 minutes....

I make distance quickly... and throw the change!!!

If they keep coming, then it's on Cuz...

I look completely normal, except my arms are rather skinny due to the inability to workout my upper body.

So be careful who you engage in a fight... you might loose everything you own if you swing on me unjustified! My wife can be wicked... ;v)

Your Thoughts?

OldLincoln
03-15-2010, 22:47
My neck is a mess like Pierre! and a solid hit most likely would paralyze or kill me. The neurosurgeon refuses to operate saying it's to risky.
Bad back also, so I cannot fight and I cannot run.
My wife uses a walker, so if she's with me I probably won't do much hesitating.

That's why I carry. So if some BG wants to punch me out I don't have many options. Great if he listens to me and backs off, but I don't see I have much choice other than to shoot if attacked.

Does this mean I'll spend what's left of my life in some prison leaving my wife to fend for herself?

beatcop
03-16-2010, 09:53
My neck is a mess like Pierre! and a solid hit most likely would paralyze or kill me. The neurosurgeon refuses to operate saying it's to risky.
Bad back also, so I cannot fight and I cannot run.
My wife uses a walker, so if she's with me I probably won't do much hesitating.

That's why I carry. So if some BG wants to punch me out I don't have many options. Great if he listens to me and backs off, but I don't see I have much choice other than to shoot if attacked.

Does this mean I'll spend what's left of my life in some prison leaving my wife to fend for herself?

Sounds like you/your doctor will be able to articulate that you have a specific condition & that a minor fist fight will result in serious physical injury on your part. You still may be obligated to retreat/attempt in your area...look into that aspect.

Bashful
03-16-2010, 17:00
To look at me, 6'1" and 235, it could be said by appearance that I can handle my own. However... I have a bad heart with a pacemaker/defibrillator. My endurance to fight is slim/none since my LEF is about 25% (normal is near 50).

I will avoid a confrontation at all costs... but when cornered, someones gonna spring some leaks.

TMG
03-16-2010, 18:12
http://www.useofforce.us/3aojp/

This should help answer your question.
EK

MilitantBEEMER
03-16-2010, 21:10
I am 6'5" and 200lbs. I look bigger than I am (mainly because of my height and abnormally large noggin) That being said I lack in upper body strength due to a heart problem. You would not know it by looking at me, nor do I feel it, in fact I just have doctor ordered weight lifting restrictions. Because of my heart condition I am also at risk from blows to upper body.
All that being said, for me lethal force would be the very last resort, I do all I can to avoid areas and situations that may arise.
If put in the situation I would not relish it, but would indeed defend my life and the life of those I love.
I pray and hope to never have to use my CCW.

Pierre!
03-17-2010, 07:45
http://www.useofforce.us/3aojp/

This should help answer your question.
EK

Nice Link TMG!

Some really good info in there... This is on my "periodic review till I Get It" list!

beala
03-17-2010, 10:39
You can use deadly force if there is an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you have another option, take it. If you can run, then run. The more alternatives you try, the more likely the jury will side with you. If you're only options are a fistfight or deadly force, then it starts getting sticky. I think that would have to be judged on a case by case basis (I think it would mostly come down to if there was a disparity of force, etc).

Also, as someone else suggested, this is an excellent example of when pepper spray would have come in handy.

EDIT: So, to answer the question, I think the same rules apply for brandishing. Don't draw unless there's an imminent threat.

inthefrey
03-17-2010, 12:21
Question:
I carry SOB. (small of back)
Once I begin my retreat, and the BG is still persuing, Can I "flash" with hand-on and verbal command? (...something like, "I'm armed. I need you to stop advancing on me!)

Just curious here. Not saying that running is not the absolute BEST option.

Edit:
Just read the post about brandishing....
If the weapon is still out of sight, is an indication to the BG that you are armed the same as brandishing?

beatcop
03-17-2010, 14:30
^ It's the lesser of two evils...if you will have a loss of limb, eyesight, life, etc from a fistfight (medically obvious condition), then retreat...still not working? Going to be outrun? Show weapon and issue a verbal command, that's it. Further proof that a "sane attacker" would not continue an attack unless his intent was to cause harm/disarm.

dosei
03-17-2010, 15:10
You can use deadly force if there is an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm.

...and there is sufficient Disparity of Force.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW_xaTf5oqI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGJIyxm2s_M
(Disparity of Force is covered 4:05 into this video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNCRL9SN2QA
(...and continues thru this video...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJazmbDH7S8
(...and into this video)

Bashful
03-17-2010, 20:54
...and there is sufficient Disparity of Force.



Depends upon you're state's deadly force use laws. Some states don't address disparity of force.

MacG22
03-17-2010, 23:03
In general, the threat of deadly force is seen as the same thing as the use of deadly force, in terms of opening you to prosecution (keep in mind the consequences are different). So if you are justified to shoot, then you're also justified to "brandish" or present the threat of deadly force.

Whether it's a good idea to warn instead of just shoot is a matter of judgment.

beala
03-17-2010, 23:13
Depends upon you're state's deadly force use laws. Some states don't address disparity of force.Yeah, I'm pretty sure that my state's laws don't say anything specifically about disparity of force. I always just thought that disparity of force was one way to establish that a deadly threat existed. For example, if you and your attacker both have guns, then there's no disparity of force, but there's still a deadly threat (thus you're still justified in shooting).