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inthefrey
03-17-2010, 11:34
I got invited to an IDPA shoot at the local gun club this Saturday.
Anyone else do this? Sounds like a good time to me. What will I need besides my weapon, ammo, hearing prot. S/Glasses and holster?

A6Gator
03-17-2010, 11:59
I got invited to an IDPA shoot at the local gun club this Saturday.
Anyone else do this? Sounds like a good time to me. What will I need besides my weapon, ammo, hearing prot. S/Glasses and holster?

Go. It'll be a blast. Gun, holster, probably 100 rounds, dual mag pouch (or two singles) and 3 mags, eye and ear protection. If you've never done anything like this before I'd recommend you work on: (1) being safe, then (2) accuracy (3) speed.

inthefrey
03-17-2010, 12:06
Go. It'll be a blast. Gun, holster, probably 100 rounds, dual mag pouch (or two singles) and 3 mags, eye and ear protection. If you've never done anything like this before I'd recommend you work on: (1) being safe, then (2) accuracy (3) speed.


Thanks. I've been reading up on the http://www.idpa.com/ website.
Never shot in any form of competition - only still targets at 25'.

Any particular "got-cha's" that are common novice mistakes I can practice NOT DOING?
**besides shooting myself in the foot or leg of course...***;)

rboatright
03-17-2010, 12:16
I had a lot of fun at my first one.

You have the equiment list right.

Mistakes not to make:

You can't shoot fast enough to make up for missing. Take your time, hit.

You'll be asked to shoot one handed and with your weak hand. Practice that some.

Be super super super careful to not turn around, and keep your muzzle downstream. This novice mistake means your evening is over.

Go, it's a hell of a lot of fun

inthefrey
03-17-2010, 14:03
After reading the RULES, it says that SOB holsters are not permitted.

My holster IS a crossbreed supertuck. However, I carry it (and always have) used it as a SOB holster. I have since I got it.

Do I have a problem?

Alaskapopo
03-17-2010, 15:13
I got invited to an IDPA shoot at the local gun club this Saturday.
Anyone else do this? Sounds like a good time to me. What will I need besides my weapon, ammo, hearing prot. S/Glasses and holster?

IDPA is a blast here are some videos from my last IDPA match. I also shoot USPSA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tqvYuck71I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5z-ihlHte4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFlS6rfDDQI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EMJfpNiLp8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93G1OC3my9o

The reason certain holsters are banned is for safety. Not sure about SOB but cross draws and shoulder holsters are a no go because they point behind the firing line. SOB holsters make it easy for you to sweep yourself with the muzzle.

inthefrey
03-17-2010, 15:28
IDPA is a blast here are some videos from my last IDPA match. I also shoot USPSA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tqvYuck71I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5z-ihlHte4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFlS6rfDDQI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EMJfpNiLp8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93G1OC3my9o

The reason certain holsters are banned is for safety. Not sure about SOB but cross draws and shoulder holsters are a no go because they point behind the firing line. SOB holsters make it easy for you to sweep yourself with the muzzle.


I wear it SOB normal for right-draw. Most SOB holsters show the mag(grip) pointing to the right at 3-4-o`clock. My grip points to 10-o`clock. I've had folks watch this several times. The muzzle actually points down and away on the draw. I've practiced this 1000 times.

:upeyes:It figures I'd have a goofy draw....:crying:

Edit:

YOU MISSED!

Great Videos! Thanks!
Now, I'm really petrified...

HK Dan
03-17-2010, 16:49
Don't get caught up in trying to match the experienced shooter's tempo. Shoot at your normal speed and ability and don't rush it. Don't go in trying to "make an impression", just be yourself and have fun! (be safe)

Deaf Smith
03-17-2010, 18:03
inthefrey,

GO! You will learn much from IDPA matches, not only on how to shoot but how to keep your wits about you.

Deaf

rvrctyrngr
03-17-2010, 18:52
I wear it SOB normal for right-draw. Most SOB holsters show the mag(grip) pointing to the right at 3-4-o`clock. My grip points to 10-o`clock. I've had folks watch this several times. The muzzle actually points down and away on the draw. I've practiced this 1000 times.

:upeyes:It figures I'd have a goofy draw....:crying:

Edit:

YOU MISSED!

Great Videos! Thanks!
Now, I'm really petrified...

If the Safety Officers are paying attention, they won't let you wear your rig that far behind your hip. But, just see what they have to say. If they say move it, move it.

Have a GREAT time!

Alaskapopo
03-17-2010, 20:12
I wear it SOB normal for right-draw. Most SOB holsters show the mag(grip) pointing to the right at 3-4-o`clock. My grip points to 10-o`clock. I've had folks watch this several times. The muzzle actually points down and away on the draw. I've practiced this 1000 times.

:upeyes:It figures I'd have a goofy draw....:crying:

Edit:

YOU MISSED!

Great Videos! Thanks!
Now, I'm really petrified...

Yep and that miss cost me 2 places in the match

UtahIrishman
03-17-2010, 21:08
I went once last year and will probably go at least a couple times this year. I enjoyed it a lot. Think of it as 'Golf with guns' :supergrin:

I wore my holster at about 4:00 o'clock on my hip and they weren't happy with that but let it go. Every else had theirs right at 3:00 o'clock.

inthefrey
03-18-2010, 10:41
Well, it's ON! I Need to go to John Brown's Armory today and pick up a 3rd mag and a few holders. What was really strange was that I really didn't get any steam from the wife about spending $135 for a few new toys and a day at the gun club.
Woo Hoo!

A6Gator
03-18-2010, 11:13
My Frau figures if I'm at the range, I'm not in a bar or chasing skirts...:supergrin:

Hedo1
03-18-2010, 11:36
Practice you mag changes before you go. (with an empty weapon and magazines of course)

A little competition breeds excitement. Squeeze the trigger, don't jerk it.

Wear a hat with a bill and sunglasses if it's bright out. They help with the glare.

Bring extra ammo.

DragonLibra
03-19-2010, 13:06
I got invited to an IDPA shoot at the local gun club this Saturday.
Anyone else do this? Sounds like a good time to me. What will I need besides my weapon, ammo, hearing prot. S/Glasses and holster?

Just wondering if you got invited to Beaver Valley Rifle Pistol Club? If so they have a great shoot? BTW another good one down in Weirton, WV is Hancock County which has a really neat shoot house. They are starting their season Sunday.

I'll be down at BVRPC Saturday and Hancock Sunday. I really love IDPA shoots & the friends I 've met at them through the years. Can't wait to get the 2010 season under way after the long cold winter.

If it's BVRPC you're heading to, I'll be looking for the guy with the crossbreed holster. :cool:

BTW, one more thing you'll need is a cover garment. IDPA shoots most stages from concealment. Vest, jacket, or shirt are all fine.

dosei
03-19-2010, 14:34
After reading the RULES, it says that SOB holsters are not permitted.

My holster IS a crossbreed supertuck. However, I carry it (and always have) used it as a SOB holster. I have since I got it.

Do I have a problem?

Good chance the MD, RO, or SO will not approve...and require you to move the holster.

MD = Match Director

RO = Range Officer

SO = Safety Officer

Thing you will need (other than what you already listed):
Water (for drinking)
All the magazines you have for your gun

DragonLibra
03-19-2010, 15:04
Good chance the MD, RO, or SO will not approve...and require you to move the holster.

MD = Match Director

RO = Range Officer

SO = Safety Officer

Thing you will need (other than what you already listed):
Water (for drinking)
All the magazines you have for your gun

I agree. It's a safety issue on holster location so you don't sweep yourself, the SO or your fellow shooters behind you. Being that holsters are required to be in a position that is approximately behind the side seam of a pair of jeans seems you're not going to have to move it that much.

If I was you I'd just move it because sooner or later if you attend IDPA matches an MD or SO will ask you to move it.

ronin.45
03-20-2010, 00:33
You will have a great time. Like others have said just take your time and focus on safety. You can just rotate your holster slightly forward and you will be fine. It may be a little different from what you are used to but it won't be a big deal. Remember to take a cover garment. Many IDPA clubs require you to draw from concealment so bring a vest or button down shirt along.

Enjoy and let us know how you like it.

ranburr1
03-20-2010, 14:26
IDPA is a lot of fun. However, I think it has some silly rules and they have some bad habits due to "gamesmanship". It is not a replacement for or even a place to practice defensive training.

Alaskapopo
03-20-2010, 17:52
IDPA is a lot of fun. However, I think it has some silly rules and they have some bad habits due to "gamesmanship". It is not a replacement for or even a place to practice defensive training.

Correct. Competition is Competition and training is training. Don't confuse the two. You can not act tactically if a clock is running. But competition does do some good things for you. It induces stress to a degree and it tests your fundamental marksmanship skills and gun handling as well as your speed.
Pat

ronin.45
03-20-2010, 20:44
IDPA is a lot of fun. However, I think it has some silly rules and they have some bad habits due to "gamesmanship". It is not a replacement for or even a place to practice defensive training.


I agree some of the rules are a bit silly. I will say that there is only as much gaming as you choose. You can do everything tactically if you want to. Many guys at our matches use the guns that they carry everyday and use solid tactics as they shoot. It is what you make it.

PEC-Memphis
03-20-2010, 21:03
My Frau figures if I'm at the range, I'm not in a bar or chasing skirts...:supergrin:

No skirts at IDPA ?

inthefrey
03-21-2010, 11:45
UPDATE:

Well, I guess, for the first time out, I did okay. There were lots of folks there who could pull the trigger real fast yet would FTN (fail to nutralize). I did one of those too along with 3 proceedure.

Only a few were there to show everyone else how well they could shoot or how well they "knew the rules" and made it their job to try and embarass the scoring and setup team.

After those 3 proceedural hits, I actually calmed-down and starting "thinking". My hear rate slowed and the jitters were almost gone by stage 5 where the "good shots" were quickly filtered from the "nice shoot'in Tex" folks.

I would recommed this for anyone (insert inthefrey) who may be a little unsure of themselves and their abilities yet is not affraid to show it and learn from the experience. I sure did.

Saw DragonLibra there - She's said she's been doing this for a while - She blamed her bad luck on her new GLOCK...:supergrin::wavey: Since this was my 1st time, I had nothing to blame but my lack of experience. This, I intend to change.

dosei
03-21-2010, 14:01
IDPA is a lot of fun. However, I think it has some silly rules and they have some bad habits due to "gamesmanship". It is not a replacement for or even a place to practice defensive training.

Correct. Competition is Competition and training is training. Don't confuse the two. You can not act tactically if a clock is running. But competition does do some good things for you. It induces stress to a degree and it tests your fundamental marksmanship skills and gun handling as well as your speed.
Pat

I'm of the mindset that IDPA is what YOU choose to make it. If you approach it as a game and the goal is to have the best score...you will be a gamer. If you approach it as a place where you can practice all the things most ranges do not allow (drawing from concealment and shooting, shooting of the move, shooting from various positions, head shots, shooting around cover, etc.) it begins to have its usefulness as a place to practice things.

If you've shot 8 times and your behind cover what goes thru your head?
A: Only one BG to shoot when I leave cover...shoot to slide lock and reload while running to next cover...after that, two static BG's and a pepper popper that activates the mover.
B: I've neutralized all visible BG's and currently safe...two in the mag & one in the pipe...time to top off with a fresh mag before I see what's around the corner and possibly find myself in a hornet's nest of BG's with only three rounds before slide-lock.

Gamers answer A.

It is what you make of it.
Is it a game? Yes, of course it is.
Is it a place where you can practice things that are normally taboo at most ranges? Yes, it's that too.
You get to decide what you do more of when your at one...play or practice.

DragonLibra
03-21-2010, 18:39
UPDATE:

Well, I guess, for the first time out, I did okay. There were lots of folks there who could pull the trigger real fast yet would FTN (fail to nutralize). I did one of those too along with 3 proceedure.

Only a few were there to show everyone else how well they could shoot or how well they "knew the rules" and made it their job to try and embarass the scoring and setup team.

After those 3 proceedural hits, I actually calmed-down and starting "thinking". My hear rate slowed and the jitters were almost gone by stage 5 where the "good shots" were quickly filtered from the "nice shoot'in Tex" folks.

I would recommed this for anyone (insert inthefrey) who may be a little unsure of themselves and their abilities yet is not affraid to show it and learn from the experience. I sure did.

Saw DragonLibra there - She's said she's been doing this for a while - She blamed her bad luck on her new GLOCK...:supergrin::wavey: Since this was my 1st time, I had nothing to blame but my lack of experience. This, I intend to change.

Good to meet you as well inthefrey. As far as blaming the new Glock I should really blame the swingers. I hate swingers - well except for when I hit them - that was my only 2 FTN's with the Glock. You missed the great head shots with my new Glock up at Stage 1. :devilish:

I'm pleased with the my new 4th Gen 17. Had a really decent shoot with it down at Hancock County's IDPA match today. In a couple of stages at both BVRPC & Hancock I actually shot it faster with almost as good accuracy as my M&P. This weekend was only the 2nd and 3rd time I've shot it since getting it 2 weeks ago and the first matches I've tried it in.

As to your procedurals inthefrey - they are fairly strict at BVRPC and that is probably for the good. Even experienced shooters get them there at some stages. And I think it shows consistency on their part to be willing to hand out procedurals to all on same basis. A lot of clubs will let the new shooters escape without a procedural. BVRPC have the 2nd toughest stages I shoot in this area in IDPA in local matches. Only tougher shoot is Hancock IMHO in this area in IDPA.

Sure had some great weather this weekend and it was fun getting out in the sun to get some shooting and BS'ing in after the long winter.

A6Gator
03-21-2010, 22:26
No skirts at IDPA ?

More like 5.11s...:supergrin:

Missed ya at Steel Challenge!

ranburr1
03-22-2010, 03:44
I'm of the mindset that IDPA is what YOU choose to make it.

Not in my experience. I have had points deducted (not a big deal) and been threatened with expulsion because I used the Suhl position. None of the officers had ever heard of it and felt that it must be unsafe since they didn't use it. Also, I really think it is ridiculous that you can't fully load magazines. If your carry pistol will hold 20 rounds, you should have 20 rounds loaded into it. These are just a couple of issues that I have with the game. In my opinion it is fun, but it is not realistic training.

dosei
03-22-2010, 05:56
In my opinion it is fun, but it is not realistic training.

I wholeheartedly agree that it is NOT training, but still believe it is a place where many things that are normally taboo on the majority of public ranges can finally be practiced...and practice is good. For me, it's $10 for 4 hours of range time to practice the things that are normally against the rules...which is less money than what it costs to go any other time. And thankfully, the people at the range are much more "enlightened" than at yours.

degoodman
03-22-2010, 10:01
In my opinion it is fun, but it is not realistic training.

This.

But don't take it any farther than that. Like Dosei says, we are all generally in agreement that IDPA is a game first. Games have rules to put limits on your behavior and level the playing field in the game. Yes, one of the rules that IDPA has put in is to have all COF's be revolver neutral, and to limit semi auto capacity to the least common denominator, which is the capacity limit set in our restricted states. Instead of being a crybaby about it, treat it as an opportunity to practice reloads in a higher stress environment.

As has been mentioned in almost every thread on te subject, IDPA is NOT training. Its rules do place limits on things that are applicable to defensive gunfighting, and encourages several bad habits on top of that. But it is valuable practice time for a set of skills that we rarely get to practice on public range facilities, like shooting on the move, engaging multiple widely dispersed targets, using barricades as cover and concealment, etc. When "realistic" training comes with a $150/day and up price tag at a formal course only offered a few times a year, the $20 monthly match and 4 hours of associated range time start to look like an outright bargain.

My only other gripe is with the "tactical" shooters who think they're doing themselves a service by not playing the game. If you're going to show up at an IDPA match, show up to compete. Work to improve your times, or to move up a class. Set a goal for yourself and work to achieve it. You'll get far more out of the experience than the whiners who finish off the bottom of the scoresheet, and justify their performance as being "tactically correct", and if they were in a real gunfight, they'd have obviously won. Because in reality those losers are just afraid to compete, and fare just as badly in a FoF course of fire in a training class as they do on the IDPA scorecard against similarly skilled opponents.

DragonLibra
03-22-2010, 10:05
Not in my experience. I have had points deducted (not a big deal) and been threatened with expulsion because I used the Suhl position. None of the officers had ever heard of it and felt that it must be unsafe since they didn't use it. Also, I really think it is ridiculous that you can't fully load magazines. If your carry pistol will hold 20 rounds, you should have 20 rounds loaded into it. These are just a couple of issues that I have with the game. In my opinion it is fun, but it is not realistic training.

I agree on the round count but you have to remember the game came about in the 90's when you had that 10 round magazine law. And that is still the case in some states. They are trying to keep the playing field level for competitors from all states. USPSA Production has the same rule.

As to Sul position, you are pointing the gun down almost at your feet. I took a Tactical class where I was taught the position but I didn't feel I had any reason to use it in a gun game where the SO's want to see that gun pointed down range except when holstering. If I was SO'ing and a competitor used it I'd tell him not to. The RO's in USPSA and GSSF would also object and tell you to keep that muzzle down range.

Yeah it's not exactly training but it is a chance to get out and shoot a handgun in scenarios you will not get to try at the range normally without having to pay for an expensive gun school. I'd love to have the money & ammo to go to all the great gun classes - but I'm on a budget. For $10-$20 on a weekend and 100-200rounds of ammo I get to have a great fun day outdoors.

inthefrey
03-22-2010, 10:11
As to Suhl position, you are pointing the gun down almost at your feet. I took a Tactical class where I was taught the position but I didn't feel I had any reason to use it in a gun game where the SO's want to see that gun pointed down range except when holstering. If I was SO'ing and a competitor used it I'd tell him not to.
.

This is where I took my procedural muzzle hits.

dosei
03-22-2010, 10:34
The only major problem I see with going SUL is in breaking the 180. If your in SUL and facing directly downrange, your gun is already parked at 180...ANY degree of body rotation to the left (if you right-handed) and you've broken the 180. And if your breaking the 180, then procedurals and DQs are, of course, in order and necessary.

inthefrey
03-22-2010, 10:40
Can anyone provide more information on "Suhl position"? Just curious. Web searches are coming up empty - except for ranburr's post on it in other gun forums.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-carry-tactical-training/80815-idpa-3.html



UPDATE:
Changed to SUL and got a bunch more hits. Thanks - no need to reply.
http://www.tftt.com/images/Articles/Position_SUL_The_One_CQB_Ready_Position.pdf

dosei
03-22-2010, 10:45
Can anyone provide more information on "Suhl position"? Just curious. Web searches are coming up empty - except for ranburr's post on it in other gun forums.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-carry-tactical-training/80815-idpa-3.html

Ranburr - this is not a "hit". Not focusing on it - Just really curious now. Thanks

UPDATE:
Changed to SUL and got a bunch more hits. Thanks - no need to reply.
http://www.tftt.com/images/Articles/Position_SUL_The_One_CQB_Ready_Position.pdf

Here you go...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLDvGhNaKOk

DragonLibra
03-22-2010, 10:49
Sul - for those wondering here's a good image. http://www.shootingtips.com/NewFiles/article/Position%20Sul/Position-SUL5.jpg

inthefrey
03-22-2010, 10:56
Here you go...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLDvGhNaKOk

I can see how this may violate an SO's sensibilities.

Alaskapopo
03-22-2010, 11:35
I'm of the mindset that IDPA is what YOU choose to make it. If you approach it as a game and the goal is to have the best score...you will be a gamer. If you approach it as a place where you can practice all the things most ranges do not allow (drawing from concealment and shooting, shooting of the move, shooting from various positions, head shots, shooting around cover, etc.) it begins to have its usefulness as a place to practice things.

If you've shot 8 times and your behind cover what goes thru your head?
A: Only one BG to shoot when I leave cover...shoot to slide lock and reload while running to next cover...after that, two static BG's and a pepper popper that activates the mover.
B: I've neutralized all visible BG's and currently safe...two in the mag & one in the pipe...time to top off with a fresh mag before I see what's around the corner and possibly find myself in a hornet's nest of BG's with only three rounds before slide-lock.

Gamers answer A.

It is what you make of it.
Is it a game? Yes, of course it is.
Is it a place where you can practice things that are normally taboo at most ranges? Yes, it's that too.
You get to decide what you do more of when your at one...play or practice.
I disagree. Its a game its human nature to want to win games. That is why you should not try to use games for training. Everyone will eventually start gaming. Training is training and you should go to class for that. IDPA is a game and you should play the game.
Pat

degoodman
03-22-2010, 12:42
Not in my experience. I have had points deducted (not a big deal) and been threatened with expulsion because I used the Suhl position. None of the officers had ever heard of it and felt that it must be unsafe since they didn't use it. Also, I really think it is ridiculous that you can't fully load magazines. If your carry pistol will hold 20 rounds, you should have 20 rounds loaded into it. These are just a couple of issues that I have with the game. In my opinion it is fun, but it is not realistic training.

The Sul ready position is a problem in "pracical" range games not because it is fundamentally unsafe, but because it creates virtually an instantaneous violation of the 180 degree rule. In position Sul, your muzzle is already even with the 180 degree line, and any rotation to the left or right, depending on your handedness, will violate that rule.

Sul is a position for team tactics and combat, where weapons retention and the safety of team members, particularly team members forward of you in the stick, is as great a concern as downrange safety. Sul is a good safety compromise for places where there is NO downrange safety, like when entering a house on a high risk warrant in suburban town, USA, or when engaged in open combat, combined with the additional safety concern of having other GG's forward of your position, and the potential for having your weapon taken from you by concealed BG's in close quarters. But understand that it is a compromise that works based on the circumstances presented by combative situations as part of a team.

Practical competetions conducted on cold ranges that are not 360 degree safe have rigid rules in place to protect the safety of other competetors and spectators in those zones not protected from gunfire. the safety of the scorers and other range personnel are maintained by the rigid application of the 180 degree rule, keepng muzzles firmly on one side side of that imaginary line, and shooters, range personnel and spectators on the other. There is no compromise in that rule, nor should there be. Sul, unfortunately, creates violations of that rigid safety policy, and therefore must be excluded.

Sam Spade
03-22-2010, 13:11
The Sul ready position is a problem in "pracical" range games not because it is fundamentally unsafe, but because it creates virtually an instantaneous violation of the 180 degree rule. In position Sul, your muzzle is already even with the 180 degree line, and any rotation to the left or right, depending on your handedness, will violate that rule.

Not a big IDPA guy. So...

If a range rule doesn't match what's proven in the real world, should it really be a rule?

Alaskapopo
03-22-2010, 13:21
Not a big IDPA guy. So...

If a range rule doesn't match what's proven in the real world, should it really be a rule?

I would agree with you but IDPA is not under my control. My biggest problem with both IDPA and USPSA is the stupid cold range. We don't walk around in real life with empty guns. All the training I go to runs hot ranges and there is never a problem.
Pat

DragonLibra
03-22-2010, 13:32
Not a big IDPA guy. So...

If a range rule doesn't match what's proven in the real world, should it really be a rule?

There for everyone's safety. Every gun sport stresses safety first. I'd say IDPA, USPSA, GSSF, SASS and all the other gun sports have a remarkable safety record.

SUL was designed for tactical situations not for gun games on a range where safety has to be primary consideration and where you have shooters from the most experienced to beginners.

If we were going to practice true tactical & CCW then we'd have a hot range all the time. Most gun sports for safety go with a cold range.

Alaskapopo
03-22-2010, 14:15
There for everyone's safety. Every gun sport stresses safety first. I'd say IDPA, USPSA, GSSF, SASS and all the other gun sports have a remarkable safety record.

SUL was designed for tactical situations not for gun games on a range where safety has to be primary consideration and where you have shooters from the most experienced to beginners.

If we were going to practice true tactical & CCW then we'd have a hot range all the time. Most gun sports for safety go with a cold range.
Safety is also a primary concern when working on the street or in a stack with your team mates.

DragonLibra
03-22-2010, 15:27
Safety is also a primary concern when working on the street or in a stack with your team mates.

True but at least in your situation you know the training of your team mates & coworkers. In gun competitions the MD's, SO's and RO's are dealing with everyone from Master class to Novice. And I have seen some people do some stupid gun handling at the range that was controlled or stopped by the RO/SO's.

I know we're all supposed to be adults who know how to carry safely and it may seem onerous to have to unload and show clear to go to the Portajohn on the range but all it would take is one brain f*rt by a competitor to ruin a good day at the range.

I can't blame the MD's, SO/RO's for stressing safety even if it means you can't practice that perfectly safe technique(for you) at the competition you learned in tactical class.

Sam Spade
03-22-2010, 15:42
There for everyone's safety. Every gun sport stresses safety first. I'd say IDPA, USPSA, GSSF, SASS and all the other gun sports have a remarkable safety record.

SUL was designed for tactical situations not for gun games on a range where safety has to be primary consideration and where you have shooters from the most experienced to beginners.

If we were going to practice true tactical & CCW then we'd have a hot range all the time. Most gun sports for safety go with a cold range.

I understand the explanation, it's the assumptions behind it that I'm questioning.

Every---every, without exception---training class/session I've attended or taught in the last 10+ years has been on a hot range. Why do sports believe they have to have cold ranges? Rogers, Awerbuck, Howe, Spade (ego self-stroke there :cool: ) all equal or exceed their safety record. Those classes, especially the basic ones, are filled with beginners.

If something like SUL succeeds in the higher stress world, why is it dismissed in competition?

DragonLibra
03-22-2010, 15:59
I understand the explanation, it's the assumptions behind it that I'm questioning.

Every---every, without exception---training class/session I've attended or taught in the last 10+ years has been on a hot range. Why do sports believe they have to have cold ranges? Rogers, Awerbuck, Howe, Spade (ego self-stroke there :cool: ) all equal or exceed their safety record. Those classes, especially the basic ones, are filled with beginners.

If something like SUL succeeds in the higher stress world, why is it dismissed in competition?

The classes I've attended you load on the line and you're somewhat under the supervision of the instructor(s). And IMHO the attendees are going to have a different mindset being in a class. And most classes probably have a limited number of shooters. A USPSA, IDPA or other shoot can have upwards of 50-100+ competitors and only an RO/SO and a scorekeeper at each stage.

At a competition the SO/RO is busy supervising the shooter on the line and not the competitors and spectators behind them. You have people wandering around bs'ing, going to their car, to the portajohn or the club house, etc. I've seen people pull out their gun behind the line to show to another competitor (and yes I've told them that is not allowed and to put it back in the holster).

Now at every state/regional IDPA shoot I've attended they have made the squad hot at the stage with the caution if for any reason they had to step outside the bay they had to get an RO to supervise their unload and show clear or suffer the DQ.

I imagine for insurance and in a litigious society and for general safety it behooves the clubs to keep a cold range. Heck I still know clubs that won't allow a USPSA or IDPA shoot at their club and still have 5 and 6 shot pistol load limits with seconds rules between shots at their clubs.

We've all read the stories of the CCW holders who have dropped a gun in the public john and had it go boom. And I've read LEO stories of stupid AD's that have happened at the range, or locker room, etc.,

I can live with the safety rules at the clubs.

PhoneCop
03-22-2010, 18:26
I wholeheartedly agree that it is NOT training, but still believe it is a place where many things that are normally taboo on the majority of public ranges can finally be practiced...and practice is good.

This, and especially this.


As has been mentioned in almost every thread on te subject, IDPA is NOT training. Its rules do place limits on things that are applicable to defensive gunfighting, and encourages several bad habits on top of that. But it is valuable practice time for a set of skills that we rarely get to practice on public range facilities, like shooting on the move, engaging multiple widely dispersed targets, using barricades as cover and concealment, etc. When "realistic" training comes with a $150/day and up price tag at a formal course only offered a few times a year, the $20 monthly match and 4 hours of associated range time start to look like an outright bargain.

My only other gripe is with the "tactical" shooters who think they're doing themselves a service by not playing the game. If you're going to show up at an IDPA match, show up to compete. Work to improve your times, or to move up a class. Set a goal for yourself and work to achieve it. You'll get far more out of the experience than the whiners who finish off the bottom of the scoresheet, and justify their performance as being "tactically correct", and if they were in a real gunfight, they'd have obviously won. Because in reality those losers are just afraid to compete, and fare just as badly in a FoF course of fire in a training class as they do on the IDPA scorecard against similarly skilled opponents.

Very well stated.

The only major problem I see with going SUL is in breaking the 180. If your in SUL and facing directly downrange, your gun is already parked at 180...ANY degree of body rotation to the left (if you right-handed) and you've broken the 180. And if your breaking the 180, then procedurals and DQs are, of course, in order and necessary.

This is true.

I can see how this may violate an SO's sensibilities.

As an USPSA RO, and currently this close to being a CRO, I will say it makes me very nervous to see the gun that close to the 180 and that close to sweeping. However, until the there is a sweep or a 180 break, there is no rule violation.

I disagree. Its a game its human nature to want to win games. That is why you should not try to use games for training. Everyone will eventually start gaming. Training is training and you should go to class for that. IDPA is a game and you should play the game.
Pat

This is logical.


Practical competetions conducted on cold ranges that are not 360 degree safe have rigid rules in place to protect the safety of other competetors and spectators in those zones not protected from gunfire. the safety of the scorers and other range personnel are maintained by the rigid application of the 180 degree rule, keepng muzzles firmly on one side side of that imaginary line, and shooters, range personnel and spectators on the other. There is no compromise in that rule, nor should there be.

This, coupled with this:

True but at least in your situation you know the training of your team mates & coworkers. In gun competitions the MD's, SO's and RO's are dealing with everyone from Master class to Novice. And I have seen some people do some stupid gun handling at the range that was controlled or stopped by the RO/SO's.

I know we're all supposed to be adults who know how to carry safely and it may seem onerous to have to unload and show clear to go to the Portajohn on the range but all it would take is one brain f*rt by a competitor to ruin a good day at the range.

I can't blame the MD's, SO/RO's for stressing safety even if it means you can't practice that perfectly safe technique(for you) at the competition you learned in tactical class.

Is the answer to this:


If a range rule doesn't match what's proven in the real world, should it really be a rule?

And Sam asks:

I understand the explanation, it's the assumptions behind it that I'm questioning.

Every---every, without exception---training class/session I've attended or taught in the last 10+ years has been on a hot range. Why do sports believe they have to have cold ranges? Rogers, Awerbuck, Howe, Spade (ego self-stroke there :cool: ) all equal or exceed their safety record. Those classes, especially the basic ones, are filled with beginners.

But those basic class still have cold times- how about in the classroom? The time the shooters go out to demonstrate they do so hot. When not demonstrating, it's more akin to the classroom time.

I think the terms hot and cold range are somewhat misapplied. Our range goes hot like most ranges. When your out on the range you are instructed to go hot. And when you leave the range, you go cold.

However, I don't care to debate definitions and analogies. Everyone else is free to conduct their ranges the way they desire. I am not criticism their methods or decisions- they own them. The shooting sport owns there's.

The biggest reason for the sport "cold range" is the instructor to safety officer ratio. At the Double Tap Championships this past weekend there were some 300 shooters, and just 24 Range Officers who were busy every moment focused on either an active shooter or preparing for the next shooter or cleaning up from the last shooter. They did not have every shooter under control or observation. I suspect that you have a lower than 12 to 1 student to instructor ratio. Most instructors do. When they don't they usually put more rules in place to insure safety of the shooters. And they do so because of liability. Every serious responsible USPSA shooter wants their organization and sport to succeed. We know that while accidents are ultimately unavoidable, a stellar safey record is possible and we accept these things so that we can continue to practice the sport.

If something like SUL succeeds in the higher stress world, why is it dismissed in competition?

It's not dismissed. It's simply not allowed. There is a difference. No one says it doesn't work. It simply runs afoul of a more stringent level of safety. While one could "safely" break the 180 (not point the gun at someone) and one could "safely" conduct remedial action or reload (not pop a round of unintended) with a finger inside the trigger guard, the sports establshed a more strigent definition of what's safe.

Experience has shown that if you give 300 shooters, 12 stages to shoot 300+ rounds (that's nearly 100,000 shots fired mind you) as hard and as fast as they can in any almost any manner that they choose; then someone will pop off a round, sweep themselves, sweep others or do something else unsafe. Give your self and another ten or so major matches a year and countless other minor matches you have litterally MILLIONS of opportunities for someone to be safe and ultimately someone will get hurt or killed.

Give 288 of these 300 shooters not actively shooting the freedom to unholster where and when ever they want, someone is going to point a gun as someone else. Let them be loaded and again, eventually someone is going to get hurt or die.

As stated, this isn't training, it's a test of pistol driving, but a test of the pistol driving we do. I don't bad-mouth Indy 500 style racing because it's not drag racing and it's not Le Mans or cross county or whatever else type of racing there is. In the end, each is it's own test of the skills the sport wishes to test within the parameters set for that sport.

cyberiad
03-22-2010, 19:09
If you've shot 8 times and your behind cover what goes thru your head?
A: Only one BG to shoot when I leave cover...shoot to slide lock and reload while running to next cover...after that, two static BG's and a pepper popper that activates the mover.

Gamers answer A.


Sorry to sound like a rules nazi but if there are no walls won't opton A result in a a procedural because your pistol is empty and you're out in the open? Even if it won't, reloads normally have to start and end behind cover anyway.

Glenn E. Meyer
03-22-2010, 19:51
Having had a competitor put a round in the ground about 6 inches from my foot on the draw when I was RO'ing - I prefer to leave SUL to the tactical classes where we were vetted and did it unloaded for quite a bit before we went hot. Your gun can pont down range and away from me.

That boom gets your attention.

BTW, if I want to practice malfunction drills and reloads under stress - I shoot my 1911 instead of my Glock :supergrin:

If I were IDPA king - what I would change is to have a specific J frame rule set, different from the current one. Something like all targets get one shot each in COM. No double taps with all the mutliple targets and pain the butt 6 shot revolver stages. Should be some 5 shot revolver rules.

degoodman
03-23-2010, 00:34
I understand the explanation, it's the assumptions behind it that I'm questioning.

Every---every, without exception---training class/session I've attended or taught in the last 10+ years has been on a hot range. Why do sports believe they have to have cold ranges? Rogers, Awerbuck, Howe, Spade (ego self-stroke there :cool: ) all equal or exceed their safety record. Those classes, especially the basic ones, are filled with beginners.

If something like SUL succeeds in the higher stress world, why is it dismissed in competition?

To jump back in...

The differences between competetion and tactical level training in my mind dictate the differing level of safety. I'm going to try and compare/contrast them to bring out the differences.

I'll start with one exception to your training classes being on hot ranges, and that is that I've NEVER seen an NRA Basic Pistol / Intro to handgunning / state mandated CCW class taught on a truely hot range. Everyone may have gone hot at the same time in such a class, but before you left the bay, everyone unloaded and showed clear pointed into the berm. There was no ammo in the classrooms. Initial manipulations were done dry fire. Etc. When you're dealing with people of an unknown or known to be low skill level, you keep them cold until you're in that controlled / safe environment.

Unfortunately, depending on the level of competetion, many competetors barely rise above this level. I wish it weren't true, but especially in GSSF and non-sanctioned monthly matches you see alot of people who aren't much beyond basic pistol, and the religious commitment to muzzle discipline isn't there yet, or they just aren't truely aware of where that muzzle is when its not at line of sight.

The first major difference between training environments and competetion is the number of bodies around. a major competetion may have several hundred competetors, plus spectators, scorers and range personnel, food and beverage people, etc. A "packed" training class, in my experience has 25-30people at most, including instructors, with few if any other people around. with 25 people on a range sized to hold them, you can find generally safe directions to manipulate hot guns. at a match of any size, there are people in all directions except downrange in a bay. Because of the huge number of folks around, the only people that are in a bay are those that are shooting and support personnel, and there usually aren't safe areas elsewhere where you can manipulate a live weapon.

The next observation is the "teacher to student" ratio. In training, there is usually a very high number of instructional and range personnel observing the shooters. 10 to 1 is a high ratio in my experience, its usually alot lower to accomplish the instructional mission at hand, and to maintain safety. At a big competetion, you can get 15-1 or 20-1 shooters to RO / SO's really fast. and if the RO's are concentrated on the stages, when the bulk of the shooters are off the line most of the time you don't have enough eyes on the hot guns to keep it safe.

The next observation is that in training, there is usually some vetting of the level of skill of the attendees. You don't get to take the advanced courses with more movement, broader angles of engagement, etc, until you have passed an intro level course. Unfortunately, there is no such vetting process with competetions, and the very first time the safety personnel may find out about having a rank novice is when a competetor gets that "lost" look on the line. Its hard enough to deal with on the line with 1 or 2 RO's there. remove those observers and things can get ugly fast.

In training, with complex skills, tactics, or manipulations, there are many many reps done with cold weapons or blue guns before the students go hot. That doesn't happen in competetion.

A final nail in the coffin is what many people do to their guns in competetion, that you rarely see in a tactical course. I've seen alot of modified pistols that have light triggers, especially raced out 1911's among others, that do funny things when dirty, or just out of the blue. Hammers following the slide down, or dropping when the safety drops, and not particularly infrequently. Most people's tactical guns are much closer to stock, and you don't see those things happen nearly as often.

Combine those three general things, large numbers of people of unknown skill level, an enviromnent with many more "danger" areas, and equipment that is far more likely to act up, and you need to take a different and more aggressive approach to safety.

Again, I'm not saying that sul or hot ranges are fundamentally unsafe, but they are techniques that are less forgiving of novice mistakes, and require a greater degree of attention to detail, a common understanding of the techniques, and mutual trust than it is reasonable to expect in a competetion setting. So we take it back to the least common denominator with a cold range, rigid muzzle discipline that keeps all loaded guns pointed in known to be safe directions at all times, etc to keep the environment safe.

dosei
03-23-2010, 06:34
Sorry to sound like a rules nazi but if there are no walls won't opton A result in a a procedural because your pistol is empty and you're out in the open? Even if it won't, reloads normally have to start and end behind cover anyway.

Per the IDPA Rulebook, emergency reloads (slide-lock) do not need to be performed from behind cover.

The only risk a gamer faces with option A is getting hit with a 20 second FTDR penalty. In some places that may be a very real risk, where I go the RO's would never be so anal as to call a FTDR in that situation. I do not find anything in the rulebook about giving proceduals because a shooter runs dry in the open. If an RO calls a prodedual for that, they are making up rules and need to get booted.

DragonLibra
03-23-2010, 11:15
Per the IDPA Rulebook, emergency reloads (slide-lock) do not need to be performed from behind cover.

The only risk a gamer faces with option A is getting hit with a 20 second FTDR penalty. In some places that may be a very real risk, where I go the RO's would never be so anal as to call a FTDR in that situation. I do not find anything in the rulebook about giving proceduals because a shooter runs dry in the open. If an RO calls a prodedual for that, they are making up rules and need to get booted.

Every where I looked in the rule book it said reloads must be behind cover when available including as a Note under the Emergency Reload Slidelock section. Now that comes down to good course design by MD that where all shooters will be in a cover position when a reload is likely to occur.

I have an SO class I'm taking in a couple of weeks so that will be an interesting point to discuss at the class.

dosei
03-23-2010, 12:22
IDPA Rulebook, page 43:

If a competitor shoots to slide lock with targets still remaining to be engaged from a specific firing point, the competitor does NOT have to duck behind cover while reloading,

Since there is generally no limit to how many times a BG can be shot, any and all targets no matter how many hits are on them are still potential targets that the shooter may choose to engage at will...thus, any time you shoot to slide lock you are free to reload whether you have cover or not.

PhoneCop
03-23-2010, 13:39
Unfortunately, depending on the level of competetion, many competetors barely rise above this level. I wish it weren't true, but especially in GSSF and non-sanctioned monthly matches you see alot of people who aren't much beyond basic pistol, and the religious commitment to muzzle discipline isn't there yet, or they just aren't truely aware of where that muzzle is when its not at line of sight.

Excellent point.


A final nail in the coffin is what many people do to their guns in competetion, that you rarely see in a tactical course. I've seen alot of modified pistols that have light triggers, especially raced out 1911's among others, that do funny things when dirty, or just out of the blue. Hammers following the slide down, or dropping when the safety drops, and not particularly infrequently. Most people's tactical guns are much closer to stock, and you don't see those things happen nearly as often.

Most excellent point, I am embarrassed not to have thought of it.

DragonLibra
03-23-2010, 16:10
IDPA Rulebook, page 43:

If a competitor shoots to slide lock with targets still remaining to be engaged from a specific firing point, the competitor does NOT have to duck behind cover while reloading,

Since there is generally no limit to how many times a BG can be shot, any and all targets no matter how many hits are on them are still potential targets that the shooter may choose to engage at will...thus, any time you shoot to slide lock you are free to reload whether you have cover or not.

You didn't post the full quote from the Rule Book: Pages 42-43.

NOTE: Reloads may only begin when the shooter is fully behind cover and will be deemed completed when the fresh magazine is seated and the slide is fully forward or the cylinder is closed. (See Appendix THREE – Cover) Intentional “round dumping” to gain a competitive advantage will result in a twenty (20) second FTDR penalty. A good example is firing extra rounds from a position in the open so you will be at slide lock and thus reload at a more advantageous time. Courses should be designed with specific reload points behind cover in
mind. Once behind cover, a competitor may move behind cover while reloading. If a competitor shoots to slide lock with targets still remaining to be engaged from a specific firing point, the competitor does NOT have to duck behind cover while reloading, if you are using cover adequately while firing it will also be
adequate cover while reloading. Keeping an eye on your threat zone while reloading is a sound tactic in the real world.

That portion is referring to already being behind cover. For example you are shooting 3 targets from behind cover. You are pieing the targets say from right side. You shoot the rightmost target 2 shots, edge out to see next target, shoot it once, slidelock. This rule says as you reload you don't have to duck further behind cover but can reload while watching that target.

BTW this rule gets a lot of hot discussion in IDPA and other gun forums.
http://beachbunnysoftware.com/rulechat/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=17
http://idpaforum.yuku.com/topic/5608
http://idpaforum.yuku.com/topic/4408

This is answer from Ted Murphy who is MD for PA State Match for a number of years & also the Nationals when they were held in PA for a couple of years.

The per the rule book answer would be that you have to wait to be behind cover to start your reload.

This was implemented to stop people from dumping rounds so they can reload on their way to cover.

From the rulebook on pp9: Reloads can only be initiated
while behind cover.

Since there is cover available on the stage, the rule book answer would be to wait until reaching cover to initiate a reload. This of course includes ejecting the spent magazine/moonclip/loose rounds or grabbing a fresh ammunition feeding device.

Ted


As I said before good stage design should help the shooter from not finding themselves out in the open w/o cover at slidelock. I shoot several local IDPA matches a month from March through October and have found the SO's will usually tell you when you should consider a reload to prevent this from happening during the walkthrough or as it is written in the course description.

And if this is real life and I find myself in the open at slidelock, I'm dumping that mag while pulling a fresh one while hauling butt to cover or trying to make myself really really small while getting a fresh mag in the gun.

DragonLibra
03-23-2010, 16:35
To jump back in...

The differences between competetion and tactical level training in my mind dictate the differing level of safety. I'm going to try and compare/contrast them to bring out the differences.



degoodman I just wanted to compliment you on your very detailed explanation. Excellent!

inthefrey
03-24-2010, 11:47
Well, the scores are in. And, as I predicted and seeing how I ranked, I have a ways to go before I can compete with most of these folks. Which is fine because I have no ego to bruise.


SSP/UN (2nd from the bottom) ;)
http://www.bvrpc.org/idpa%20scores.html

DragonLibra
03-24-2010, 12:09
Well, the scores are in. And, as I predicted and seeing how I ranked, I have a ways to go before I can compete with most of these folks. Which is fine because I have no ego to bruise.


SSP/UN (2nd from the bottom) ;)
http://www.bvrpc.org/idpa%20scores.html

I thought for first time you really did good. First couple of years - back in the dark ages -whn I started in IDPA I brought up the rear for quite awhile.

Back then though there was only one club on this side of the state shooting IDPA. Now I can get to a match almost every weekend from mid-March to October in PA, WV or OH.

That was a heckuva turnout of shooters. For only 2nd year BVRPC is doing a great job having and publicizing their IDPA match.

inthefrey
03-24-2010, 13:56
I thought for first time you really did good. First couple of years - back in the dark ages -whn I started in IDPA I brought up the rear for quite awhile.



189.06(me) to 82.66 is a rather wide range of skill and experience...:rofl:

Gives me goals to SHOOT for next time. :supergrin:

gunsablazin
03-24-2010, 14:08
189.06(me) to 82.66 is a rather wide range of skill and experience...:rofl:

Gives me goals to SHOOT for next time. :supergrin:

Sounds to me like you have the right attitude! Shoot safe and have fun, your skill will improve with time.

DragonLibra
03-24-2010, 16:02
189.06(me) to 82.66 is a rather wide range of skill and experience...:rofl:

Gives me goals to SHOOT for next time. :supergrin:

Jeff has been shooting competition for 10+ years at least and shoots USPSA. He's one helluva good shooter. If he got himself classified he'd definitely be shooting Master or Expert.

Best way to see how you're doing is to go to a classifier and then you at least have a comparision with shooters in the same class. I don't know when Beaver Valley will be holding one but Mason Dixon in Morgantown will have one Saturday May 1st. Info on classifier here: http://www.idpa.com/classify.asp

I swear the better you get the better those shooting above you get! :supergrin:

ronin.45
03-24-2010, 16:24
I just scanned the scores in your link and was surprised to see half a dozen names that I know. It really is a small world.

Alaskapopo
03-24-2010, 16:34
I got 9th out of 22 at last sunday's IDPA match. I usually get 4 to 6th place. What happened was I got to bed early (because I have to drive 3 hours to get to the match) at 900 pm. I woke up at 200 am and could not get back to sleep. So by the time that match rolled around I was dragging big time. I shot 2 hostages. One by accident. The other was semi on purpose. I remember seeing 3 targets I shot the first then moved to the second and then realized something was not right. Oh yea this one has hands drawn on it. Its a hostage. Moral of the story is don't go to a match with only 3 hours of sleep.
Pat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hDRpYBWPxU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkHnEb9Iz3A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWL4XIQfUqs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYTFhTWu4KE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shz4PzUI-W0

PhoneCop
03-25-2010, 11:41
I got 9th out of 22 at last sunday's IDPA match. I usually get 4 to 6th place. What happened was I got to bed early (because I have to drive 3 hours to get to the match) at 900 pm. I woke up at 200 am and could not get back to sleep. So by the time that match rolled around I was dragging big time. I shot 2 hostages. One by accident. The other was semi on purpose. I remember seeing 3 targets I shot the first then moved to the second and then realized something was not right. Oh yea this one has hands drawn on it. Its a hostage. Moral of the story is don't go to a match with only 3 hours of sleep.
Pat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hDRpYBWPxU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkHnEb9Iz3A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWL4XIQfUqs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYTFhTWu4KE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shz4PzUI-W0


It's so cool to see a range 3200 miles away and recognize that I have shot there.

jsdintexas
03-25-2010, 12:01
Very cool you tube vids alaska - and looks like you were pretty awake to me, :cool:

Sam Spade
03-26-2010, 11:17
Thanks, gents. I still think it's silly, but I understand a bit more. Off the cuff comments:
But those basic class still have cold times- how about in the classroom? The time the shooters go out to demonstrate they do so hot. When not demonstrating, it's more akin to the classroom time.
Even the classroom, which is generally a patch of shade on the range. I don't count AZ CCW, since that's an 8-hour legal briefing punctuated by 10 shots at the end.

Experience has shown that if you give 300 shooters, 12 stages to shoot 300+ rounds (that's nearly 100,000 shots fired mind you) as hard and as fast as they can in any almost any manner that they choose; then someone will pop off a round, sweep themselves, sweep others or do something else unsafe.
Unfortunately, depending on the level of competetion, many competetors barely rise above this level.

I'll use these the next time a competitor wants to deride LE gunhandling or accuracy. :whistling: :cool:


A final nail in the coffin is what many people do to their guns in competetion, that you rarely see in a tactical course.
I had totally disregarded this. Thanks for the reminder.

There was other stuff, but mostly I just wanted to thank you two for your answers.