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HOV
03-18-2010, 08:16
I'm still getting used to my G20. So far, I have shot Remington 180-gr UMC FMJ, Buffalo Bore "Heavy 10mm" 180-gr. JHP, and Double Tap 180-gr. w/Nosler JHP.

I have also shot a good quantity of .40 S&W through it with a conversion barrel from KKM.

Accuracy with the loads:

Remington - good
Buffalo Bore - adequate
Double Tap - awful
Any .40 S&W - great

Normally I am a very good shot with the pistol. I cut out ragged holes with pretty much any of my carry pistols up to .45 ACP, but there's a problem somewhere in the system with the hot 10mm stuff.

Do you think it's shooter error, or have any of you had accuracy problems with premium hot 10mm ammo, and DT in particular?

Bullman
03-19-2010, 03:36
What's awful? If you are used to cutting ragged holes is a 2 inch group awful? What range? I personally don't cut ragged holes with anything, but I think of myself as a pretty fair shot, I am no expert but I wouldn't stand in front of me:supergrin:

HOV
03-19-2010, 09:15
At close range - 7 yards, my normal groupings are 2" or so, but with DT ammo there was a lot of variability, with many shots landing high and to the right.

If no one else has issues with the ammo, then the problem is probably the nut behind the wheel.

Bullman
03-19-2010, 11:19
I have always had good luck with it. Mostly shooting the 180 grain target loading.

RayRevolver
03-21-2010, 00:03
The 135gr Noslers seemed to group badly for me. All the other DT loads seemed within my normal pattern.

That said I have not shot the G20 in a while and most of the DT I have is a few years old.

nickE10mm
03-22-2010, 01:14
I'm still getting used to my G20. So far, I have shot Remington 180-gr UMC FMJ, Buffalo Bore "Heavy 10mm" 180-gr. JHP, and Double Tap 180-gr. w/Nosler JHP.

I have also shot a good quantity of .40 S&W through it with a conversion barrel from KKM.

Accuracy with the loads:

Remington - good
Buffalo Bore - adequate
Double Tap - awful
Any .40 S&W - great

Normally I am a very good shot with the pistol. I cut out ragged holes with pretty much any of my carry pistols up to .45 ACP, but there's a problem somewhere in the system with the hot 10mm stuff.

Do you think it's shooter error, or have any of you had accuracy problems with premium hot 10mm ammo, and DT in particular?

From the simple RAW DATA you're putting here, it would seems that your accuracy is being reduced proportionally as the power is increased.

.40 - least powerful - "great accuracy"
Rem - mild 10mm, a bit more powerful - "good accuracy"
Buffalo Bore - very hot loads - "adequate accuracy"
DT - hottest stuff around - "awful"

Not trying to say anything bad or be rude in the least but ... have you considered the possibility that you are flinching more and more with the more powerful loads? Have you had anyone else shoot groups next to you to compare between shooters? Are you shooting from a bench, slowly, with some gloves or freehand speed shooting?

Things to consider. Many new shooters don't understand or even believe that they are pulling shots until they are "shown" what they're doing (ie, a laser gun sight or a accidental bad flinch, etc). As I said, I don't know how long you've been shooting or if you're already aware of this.... so, just thought I'd offer.

FWIW, I've never had any accuracy problems with DT stuff.... in fact, its some of the more accurate stuff. Practice, Practice, Practice!

HOV
03-22-2010, 08:56
From the simple RAW DATA you're putting here, it would seems that your accuracy is being reduced proportionally as the power is increased.

.40 - least powerful - "great accuracy"
Rem - mild 10mm, a bit more powerful - "good accuracy"
Buffalo Bore - very hot loads - "adequate accuracy"
DT - hottest stuff around - "awful"

Not trying to say anything bad or be rude in the least but ... have you considered the possibility that you are flinching more and more with the more powerful loads? Have you had anyone else shoot groups next to you to compare between shooters? Are you shooting from a bench, slowly, with some gloves or freehand speed shooting?

Things to consider. Many new shooters don't understand or even believe that they are pulling shots until they are "shown" what they're doing (ie, a laser gun sight or a accidental bad flinch, etc). As I said, I don't know how long you've been shooting or if you're already aware of this.... so, just thought I'd offer.

FWIW, I've never had any accuracy problems with DT stuff.... in fact, its some of the more accurate stuff. Practice, Practice, Practice!

No offense taken at all, I've made mention several times that I believe the problem could be me - especially if no one else seems to have accuracy problems with the ammo.

I'm not a new shooter... been shooting for many years and I take pride in trigger discipline that I work on ad nauseum with snap caps and range sessions.

But - I mostly shoot the standard service calibers, so this is the first time I've shot a magnum-level round from an autoloader. When I started getting bad accuracy with the DT ammo, I really put my best trigger discipline game on and took a while to aim and make the shots. Didn't pay didvidends...

Anyway, I've been a miser with this stuff because it's so costly. It would be worth my money to go through more rounds and practice with the full strength until I either improve myself or really identify a material vice user error.

Dave T
03-22-2010, 08:56
I've tried 4 different DT loads (two 180s and two 200s) in two different 10mms. Accuracy was poor to bad with all, compared to Silvertips, Hornady and Georgia Arms reloads. They also switched bullets (Hornady to Montana Gold) without notifying me or properly labeling the ammo. I will not be buying any more ammunition from DT.

Dave

PS: Should have mentioned I do my testing at 20-25 yards. Groups with DT run 5-6 inches. The other stuff is more like 2-2.5 inches, this for 5 shot groups from two hand supported position.

527varmint
03-22-2010, 12:07
I've read more then one person getting bad accuracy with DT.

Maybe it just doesn't like the stock glock barrel?

I'm not sure with 10mm but with alot of rifles there is often an accuracy sweet spot and it before the hottest loads.

nickE10mm
03-22-2010, 21:58
No offense taken at all, I've made mention several times that I believe the problem could be me - especially if no one else seems to have accuracy problems with the ammo.

I'm not a new shooter... been shooting for many years and I take pride in trigger discipline that I work on ad nauseum with snap caps and range sessions.

But - I mostly shoot the standard service calibers, so this is the first time I've shot a magnum-level round from an autoloader. When I started getting bad accuracy with the DT ammo, I really put my best trigger discipline game on and took a while to aim and make the shots. Didn't pay didvidends...

Anyway, I've been a miser with this stuff because it's so costly. It would be worth my money to go through more rounds and practice with the full strength until I either improve myself or really identify a material vice user error.


Sounds like you're on the right track to working out your accuracy riddle. Here's my one suggestion (since you seem to know what needs to be done and are actively "doing" it): Don't strive to get out and blow a billion rounds down the tube in the name of "practice". Rather, practice more OFTEN. Ideally, you would go shooting every day in a week but shooting only 25-45 rounds a day. That's what works for me, at least. Its the muscle memory that sets in...not the sheer number of rounds.

My problem is that I don't live out in the woods or I WOULD do that. I have to drive 30 miles to the range and its only open on ONE of my days off a week.... so I don't get the opportunity that I really NEED to stay an ace shot.... but during those times that I DO have that opportunity, my groups shink down to the best they get after a couple consecutive days of shooting.

HOV
03-23-2010, 07:26
Sounds like you're on the right track to working out your accuracy riddle. Here's my one suggestion (since you seem to know what needs to be done and are actively "doing" it): Don't strive to get out and blow a billion rounds down the tube in the name of "practice". Rather, practice more OFTEN. Ideally, you would go shooting every day in a week but shooting only 25-45 rounds a day. That's what works for me, at least. Its the muscle memory that sets in...not the sheer number of rounds.

My problem is that I don't live out in the woods or I WOULD do that. I have to drive 30 miles to the range and its only open on ONE of my days off a week.... so I don't get the opportunity that I really NEED to stay an ace shot.... but during those times that I DO have that opportunity, my groups shink down to the best they get after a couple consecutive days of shooting.

Same boat here - range is 32 miles away and best I can do is one day a week or every other week. I make do at other times with snap cap/draw practice at home, and reload ammo on other days just to get some kind of gun Zen going.

This amount of practice is okay for me for stand and plink kind of stuff. I can get good groups with my usual service caliber ammo right from the get go. Drawing from the holster under time constraint is a different story... I do need some warmup to get decent groups if training like that.

I'm going to load up some 10mm to 75% levels next and see what happens. Granted there may be some variability with my hand loads as I get a recipie ironed out, but I've been known to nail a recipie on the first try. Going with what 527varmint said - if I load up some moderately hot stuff and get good groups, I'll know it's not me or my gun, and from there I can jack up the powder levels and see what happens to accuracy.

nickE10mm
03-23-2010, 07:52
Sounds good, HOV.... let us know how it goes, sir! Stay safe! -Nick

HOV
03-28-2010, 12:40
OK guys, I had a chance to load up some 10mm and give it a go at the range.

My load:

10mm 180-gr. Sierra FMJ bullet
Used Starline brass
6.4-gr. Unique
CCI large pistol primer
1.28" COAL

I loaded up fifteen of these guys and shot them through my stock Glock 20. Slow, aimed fire just like with the DT that got me the terrible results the first time around. Result:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/27926538@N02/4470001241/

And just for fun I gave it another go with a box of .40 S&W with my KKM 10mm->.40S&W conversion barrel.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/27926538@N02/4470001673/in/photostream/

I did not bring any DT to the range this time - should have but forgot to toss it in my range kit the day before.

Next time I will bring DT, and my next batch of 10mm will have a little more powder in there. In fact, now that I know my dies are set up right, I may load up 50 rounds, starting with the level of powder I currently have and ending up at max load. See if there's any effect on accuracy as powder levels increase.

So far it's not looking good for DT, for me at least.

nickE10mm
03-28-2010, 17:10
Thanks for the report, looks good.....HOWEVER, why is it "not lookin good" for DT? Until you do some controlled tests it's still looking like the "shooter" right now. In fact, I would think that after all this range shooting you're doing LEADING UP to shooting more DT ammo should help your accuracy with that ammo. Plus, you're shooting nice mellow loads with good accuracy again, which is great, but it doesn't say much for the Doubletap, as it's power was what we figured might be the culprit. Maybe you'll do your DT trial and accuracy will be better this time. Who knows

Anyways, good shootin'. I always get the "itch" after reading shooting reports.... :)

HOV
03-28-2010, 19:28
I hear you Nick. But I'm never going to get to the point of controlled tests - it's just a matter of dialing in what works for me. Thus far, DT isn't working well with my human/machine system.

Keep in mind, before my original post I also went through some full strength Buffalo Bore ammunition, which made okay groupings for me. Not the best I've ever shot, but my groups had the kind of variability I would expect for shooting full power stuff in a new gun. The DT groups were ridiculously bad. I just don't shoot like that.

I cleaned and examined my brass after the range today and found something interesting. Here's a picture of two Remington casings (left), two DT casings (center), and two Buffalo Bore casings (right). Forgive the distortion - I was using a wide angle macro lens:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/27926538@N02/4471178187/

All Remington cases were intact after one firing. All Double Tap casings after one firing had the marks you see in the picture - what could be the beginning of case/head separation or split neck.

Most of the Starline brass used in the Buffalo Bore loads was good to go even after having been reloaded and fired twice... except one Buffalo Bore casing which actually did separate after the reload was fired:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/27926538@N02/4471178885/in/photostream/

So in terms of reload-abliity, DT isn't scoring well for me so far either. I will not re-use that brass.

nickE10mm
03-28-2010, 21:55
I hear you Nick. But I'm never going to get to the point of controlled tests - it's just a matter of dialing in what works for me. Thus far, DT isn't working well with my human/machine system.

Keep in mind, before my original post I also went through some full strength Buffalo Bore ammunition, which made okay groupings for me. Not the best I've ever shot, but my groups had the kind of variability I would expect for shooting full power stuff in a new gun. The DT groups were ridiculously bad. I just don't shoot like that.

I cleaned and examined my brass after the range today and found something interesting. Here's a picture of two Remington casings (left), two DT casings (center), and two Buffalo Bore casings (right). Forgive the distortion - I was using a wide angle macro lens:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/27926538@N02/4471178187/

All Remington cases were intact after one firing. All Double Tap casings after one firing had the marks you see in the picture - what could be the beginning of case/head separation or split neck.

Most of the Starline brass used in the Buffalo Bore loads was good to go even after having been reloaded and fired twice... except one Buffalo Bore casing which actually did separate after the reload was fired:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/27926538@N02/4471178885/in/photostream/

So in terms of reload-abliity, DT isn't scoring well for me so far either. I will not re-use that brass.

I hear ya, man.... and I wanna reiterate, I'm not tryin' to come across as being rude. It may very well just be a bad batch of ammo or simply that your Glock doesn't like DT ammo. Also, you have being doing all one could be expected to do in a situation like yours (aside from the "controlled" tests, lol) and you have communicated your ideas well on here. I had REALLY bad accuracy with some of DT's wide flat nose hunting loads before that I could NOT attribute to anything else than 1) my gun didn't like the ammo or 2) the ammo was bad..... and I remember getting a lot of push-back on the forums from people insisting that it was my shooting.... so I understand about you wanting to figure it out.

As for the empty DT cases... they don't look good, you're right. I might call DT and ask if they have had any other problems with that lot of ammo. Glock barrels are loose but that looks to be bordering on unsafe. I could be wrong but DT will set you straight. They are good people. If its not DT, Glock might also say to send them the barrel and they might replace it. Who knows. I know that my Glock 20 and current G29 DT empties don't look like that, nor do the DT loads I've fired from my Razorback.

Good luck and let us know!

HOV
03-29-2010, 06:42
Nick - you're not coming across as rude at all, I appreciate the input and need the discourse.

nickE10mm
03-29-2010, 06:47
:cool:

HOV
03-29-2010, 18:45
Correction - the ruptured case turned out to be a Hornady range pickup, not one of my Buffalo Bore/hand loads. All of my twice-fired Starline brass courtesy of Buffalo Bore is intact and shows no signs of overpressure.

I updated the picture of the casings with a better one:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/27926538@N02/4471178187/

brass shower
04-01-2010, 21:34
Never tried it myself but Buffalo Bore claims underpowered recoil springs can affect the extreme spread velocities of hotter 10mm loads ( http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=114 ). If the velocity is fluxuating it will affect where the bullet strikes. If you havn't done so already you might try a 20 pound or heavier spring setup in your G20.

texas 48
04-06-2010, 22:10
I've tried 4 different DT loads (two 180s and two 200s) in two different 10mms. Accuracy was poor to bad with all, compared to Silvertips, Hornady and Georgia Arms reloads. They also switched bullets (Hornady to Montana Gold) without notifying me or properly labeling the ammo. I will not be buying any more ammunition from DT.

Dave

PS: Should have mentioned I do my testing at 20-25 yards. Groups with DT run 5-6 inches. The other stuff is more like 2-2.5 inches, this for 5 shot groups from two hand supported position.

I have to agree with you about DT. I have had accuracy problems with their ammo for the last year. I have measured OAL's on their loads and they are all over the place. Mostly below 1.250 I have had DT 165 Remmington GS measured as low as 1.243 and some in the same box 1.252. This alone will cause some accuracy issues. I think that Montana Golds are decent bullets. Their are very consistant weight wise. I have measured a hundred or so bullets and they have all been within .3 gr of 165. Can't say that for Speer or Golden Sabers. I have had variations as much as + or - 3 to 4 grains of 165 with both of those bullets. I wonder if anyone can tell me how ell the Montana's open up.

cowboywannabe
04-07-2010, 01:02
the montana gold used for the DT 9mm loading is a poor expander. very shallow cavity. barely increases diameter of bullet. if this is the standard design it may as well be a fmj in a 10mm.

when i get my G29 i will do some target shooting with it and my G20 with some DT 165gr. Gold Dots and DT 135gr. Noslers.

HOV
04-18-2010, 17:33
I tried the same batch of DT in my new KKM drop-in barrel today. Accuracy seemed to be just a bit better, and the cases were in good enough shape to reload.

I felt much more comfortable with the KKM barrel shooting these rounds. They may be better suited to the rifling. But still they were nowhere near as accurate as my handloads, so I won't be buying any more. I think they're just too hot for good accuracy.

nickE10mm
04-18-2010, 23:50
I shot some 10mm DT 200gr WFN BTB in my Razorback a day or so ago when I was visiting pops and shot several mags at some Shoot-N-See targets at about 20-25 YARDS rested (uncomfortably, I might add) on the back of a four wheeler rack and the first three or four shots were all within about 4 inches.... the groups got worse and worse (which I attribute to me flinching due to hard recoil and lack of practice) but the first shots were dead on. DEAD on.

That load sure is a slammer.... wish you had better luck with its accuuracy....

HOV
04-19-2010, 06:52
Hmm, interesting results there. And you shoot a G29 right?

nickE10mm
04-19-2010, 07:02
Hmm, interesting results there. And you shoot a G29 right?

Well, in my last post I mentioned it was with my Razorback but I also own a G29 and it seems to like DT stuff...

JTknives
04-19-2010, 14:36
I get great results with my reloaded ammo. At 7 yards I can most of the times keep my groups quite small. Most of the time I can cover the group with a quarter. I will have to look at my numbers when I get off work to see what was the best. I carry double tap but habe never Shot a lot of It.

texas 48
04-23-2010, 17:23
DT is over hyped, has never delivered advertised performance in any of my 3 10mm, and now is overpriced. The ammo I load for myself is far superior to DT in performance accuracy and cost. The effort to load your own is worth it.

JimBianchi
04-23-2010, 18:58
Hickock45 is a gun guru and has posted a video on YouTube demonstrating the bad accuracy from some DT loads from the G20.

On camera he switched to his Lone Wolf barrel and accuracy improved dramatically.

He says he has been in contact with the owner of DT to address the problem.

Until then, Buyer Be Ware.

texas 48
04-24-2010, 09:43
Hickock45 is a gun guru and has posted a video on YouTube demonstrating the bad accuracy from some DT loads from the G20.

On camera he switched to his Lone Wolf barrel and accuracy improved dramatically.

He says he has been in contact with the owner of DT to address the problem.

Until then, Buyer Be Ware.

I would not hold my breath. DT CS has deteriorated over the last couple of years. Gained a good reputation and now they are capitalizing on it at the expense of long time customers.

DrtyHarry
04-24-2010, 10:55
I run the 230gr hardcasts with no problems in my 20, but I am using a KKM barrel.

I have not used the stock barrel with this load because it's lead...and since it's not advised to shoot lead out of the stock barrel, I won't, even though many claim to have no problems shooting lead out of the stock barrel.

DH

nickE10mm
04-24-2010, 13:43
I run the 230gr hardcasts with no problems in my 20, but I am using a KKM barrel.

I have not used the stock barrel with this load because it's lead...and since it's not advised to shoot lead out of the stock barrel, I won't, even though many claim to have no problems shooting lead out of the stock barrel.

DH

I think I should hop in here and make an important distinction: the DT 200, 215 and 230 grain WFN BTB loads aren't really "lead" but rather hardcast which is very similar but not the same. Hardcast loads will not create pressure problems in stock Glock barrels like simple "lead" bullets will. Research a bit on this and you will see.

Also, as for people not reporting any "problems" with certain loads in Glocks, that's probably because there probably wouldn't be any reported "problems" noticed until the barrel exploded from overpressure, lol.

Stay safe

DrtyHarry
04-24-2010, 15:00
I think I should hop in here and make an important distinction: the DT 200, 215 and 230 grain WFN BTB loads aren't really "lead" but rather hardcast which is very similar but not the same. Hardcast loads will not create pressure problems in stock Glock barrels like simple "lead" bullets will. Research a bit on this and you will see.

Also, as for people not reporting any "problems" with certain loads in Glocks, that's probably because there probably wouldn't be any reported "problems" noticed until the barrel exploded from overpressure, lol.

Stay safe

I didn't know that, I thought the hardcast bullets were made of strong lead. Take a look at http://www.reloadsnmore.com/, they sell "Hard Cast Lead Bullets". Are they in fact lead? :dunno:

DH

nickE10mm
04-24-2010, 16:08
I didn't know that, I thought the hardcast bullets were made of strong lead. Take a look at http://www.reloadsnmore.com/, they sell "Hard Cast Lead Bullets". Are they in fact lead? :dunno:

DH

Lead and Hardcast DO share many of the same elements, yes, but they are completely different animals when used as bullets.

PaleGreenHorse
05-02-2010, 11:11
To the OP, you can grab a shooting correction target that will help you adjust for the more stout loads. My guess is you may be pushing in anticipation of the recoil, not to say its not a QC issue. DT seems to have taken a dive in the recent years.

Nick- I pulled out a box of 200gr Mikes BT's the other day from his initial release, and you are right...out of my G20 & G29 they have a true 10mm feel :supergrin: I am a bit disappointed with the CS and QC currently. I remember back in the day if there was any issue, which was so rare, Mike would be on top of it like white on rice.

HOV
05-02-2010, 12:36
Well, another test run at the range today. I cut out the 10 ring with some of my hand loaded 180-gr. Hornady XTP's over 6.6-gr. Unique, unfired Starline brass, and CCI primers. Everything was smooth and nice.

I finished off a box of DT 180-gr. Noslers with the KKM drop-in barrel. Contrary to my previous results there was very good accuracy. Pretty much a 180* turn from the first few tests with this ammo.

The two targets side by side from my hand loads and the DT were identical - 10 ring and a good chunk of 9 ring missing from both.

The rounds are still too hot for me to consider carrying them, but at least now there is evidence that at least a few magazines full will go where you point them.