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DeltaBravo
03-18-2010, 22:35
Situation:

You are grabbing a bottle of your favorite beverage at a local 7-11. When you hear the door burst open and observe a masked and armed individual start yelling and harassing the clerk for money. You are a CCW holder and are armed. You dive for the end of the isle and appear to have not been noticed. You can see where the perp is and know that if you wanted it, you'd have a clear shot. However, the shot would be to the perps back. There is nowhere to retreat since you are the back of the store and you do not appear to be in any immediate danger, however the clerk is not in such a desirable position as you. Assuming that you cannot call 911 as your voice would alert the perp to your presence what would your course of action be? Open fire to prevent the clerks slaughter (which may or may not even happen...who knows if the perps gun is even loaded)? Or stay put and only shoot if the perp comes after you? I'd be esp interested to hear any LEO or former LEO input. Assume best case state laws.

*Situation is hypothetical and yes most likely beaten to death. It is intended to see what the consensus is among good hearted, common sensed, civilian sheep dogs*

Bordner
03-18-2010, 22:40
7-11? No comment.

degoodman
03-18-2010, 23:19
Situation has been beaten to death about 6,297 times. Search function. Use it.

#1, dial 911, lay the phone on the floor. E911 is your friend if your location has it available. If not, its better than nothing to have the incident recorded.

#2, no matter what you think, you don't have a clear shot. That clerk that is being accosted for money is your background. BG's aren't in the habit of demanding money from across the room, he's close to the victim of the robbery. Statistically 4/5 of your shots will miss their intended target, and that means they will be hitting somewhere near by. How's a neglegent homicide or manslaughter charge sound to you, hero?

#3, if you do shoot, whether the BG's gun is loaded, or even real for that matter, won't make much difference. you have met your points of articulation for a shoot. The BG is making an overt threat of lethal force in the furtherance of a felony crime of violence against you, or someone you are legally entitled to defend. You were not the initial aggressor in the situation, and have no reasonable avenue of escape that reduces the danger to yourself without engaging. Whether it is wise to actually engage is a completely seperate matter, but legally, this one is going to be a good shoot.

#4, There are approximately 16,000 murders in this country per year. Of those, only 1000 had robbery as an underlying motive. Compare that to the approximately 445,000 robbery offenses in this country per year, and yes that's ROBBERY, not Burglary, theft with an underlying threat or use of force, and you notice that only about .2% of robberies end with a homicide. You've got a better chance of winning the pick 3 in the lottery. Flat truth is a robbery rarely ends in a homicide. Don't let the fact that a robbery is happening drive you to believe a killing is next. Sure, it can and does happen. But look for other clues to tell you if that's the direction the thing is headed, not the fact that someone is cleaning out the till.

Your best baseline action is going to be to sit tight behind cover, observe carefully, and do nothing further. something else may trigger a more aggressive response, herding people into the back, increasing aggression in the face of a compliant victim, becoming target fixated or "distant", etc, but unless something ups the ante, let the BG take the till and leave. No bullets in the air is a much more survivable situation for all concerned, good guys included. people die in gunfights, and sometimes, even when everything goes right, that includes the righteous shooter.

David Armstrong
03-19-2010, 09:01
Assuming that you cannot call 911 as your voice would alert the perp to your presence what would your course of action be?
Open beverage, sit back and drink it until BG is done robbing the store, then go pay clerk for beverage and provide what info I can to the police. No need to turn a perfectly good robbery into a gunfight. FWIW, I'm retired LEO.

Glenn E. Meyer
03-19-2010, 10:34
Woof, woof, woof, bark, scratch, sniff - woof, woof.

Do you speak sheep dog?

Come on, guy - is this an intro sociology project?

I have one - try this.

You are a supporter of the Rkba. You look out the window and see that UN Troops are at your door with a list of gun owners. They demand you turn over your guns to the UN.

My point - posting well known scenarios to test us is a little silly.

BTW, Dave and DeG's advice is the excellent advice given many times before - if you search.

DeltaBravo
03-19-2010, 10:55
Woof, woof, woof, bark, scratch, sniff - woof, woof.

BTW, Dave and DeG's advice is the excellent advice

Agreed

btmj
03-22-2010, 23:51
Oh, Oh, I gotta good one !!!

Let's say you are driving by a nuclear missile silo in North Dakota, and you notice a group of men dressed in black robes with black turbans... One of them is wearing a leather jacket that says "Al Queda Rules".

You notice they have a massive amount of welding / cutting/ construction equipment, and they are trying to remove the blast doors to the missile silo. you also notice that only one of these guys is armed. He has an AK47.

You pull over to the side of the road, and they don't see you. You remove the AR-15 (with excellent optics, folding bipod and match grade HP ammo) from the trunk of your car. You also have your Glock 27 with 3.5 lb trigger and steel guide rod and tritium night sights, a Sig P230 with crimson trace grips, and also a scandium frame SW 38 revolver in an ankle holster.

You have an excellent shot at the sole armed guy. Your intimate knowledge of missile silo construction leads you to believe that they will be through the doors in just minutes...

What do you do ?

==============

Gallium
03-23-2010, 05:43
Situation:

1. You are grabbing a bottle of your favorite beverage at a local 7-11.

2. When you hear the door burst open and observe a masked and armed individual start yelling and harassing the clerk for money.

3. You are a CCW holder and are armed.

4. You dive for the end of the isle and appear to have not been noticed.

5. You can see where the perp is and know that if you wanted it, you'd have a clear shot. However, the shot would be to the perps back.

6. There is nowhere to retreat since you are the back of the store and you do not appear to be in any immediate danger, however the clerk is not in such a desirable position as you.

7. Assuming that you cannot call 911 as your voice would alert the perp to your presence

8. what would your course of action be? Open fire to prevent the clerks slaughter (which may or may not even happen...who knows if the perps gun is even loaded)?

9. Or stay put and only shoot if the perp comes after you? I'd be esp interested to hear any LEO or former LEO input. Assume best case state laws.

*Situation is hypothetical and yes most likely beaten to death. It is intended to see what the consensus is among good hearted, common sensed, civilian sheep dogs*


A. How do I dive to the end of the isle, and not be noticed (4), but speaking softly on the phone to 911 (7) would alert the suspect to my presence?

B. Degoodman (as always) lays it out like it is.


'Drew

MTPD
03-23-2010, 13:59
Situation:

You are grabbing a bottle of your favorite beverage at a local 7-11. When you hear the door burst open and observe a masked and armed individual start yelling and harassing the clerk for money. You are a CCW holder and are armed. You dive for the end of the isle and appear to have not been noticed. You can see where the perp is and know that if you wanted it, you'd have a clear shot. However, the shot would be to the perps back. There is nowhere to retreat since you are the back of the store and you do not appear to be in any immediate danger, however the clerk is not in such a desirable position as you. Assuming that you cannot call 911 as your voice would alert the perp to your presence what would your course of action be? Open fire to prevent the clerks slaughter (which may or may not even happen...who knows if the perps gun is even loaded)? Or stay put and only shoot if the perp comes after you? I'd be esp interested to hear any LEO or former LEO input. Assume best case state laws.

*Situation is hypothetical and yes most likely beaten to death. It is intended to see what the consensus is among good hearted, common sensed, civilian sheep dogs*

Bullets don't have eyes. They don't care if they hit front or back, and neither do I. Drop the POS!

MTPD
03-23-2010, 14:05
Situation has been beaten to death about 6,297 times. Search function. Use it.

#1, dial 911, lay the phone on the floor. E911 is your friend if your location has it available. If not, its better than nothing to have the incident recorded.

#2, no matter what you think, you don't have a clear shot. That clerk that is being accosted for money is your background. BG's aren't in the habit of demanding money from across the room, he's close to the victim of the robbery. Statistically 4/5 of your shots will miss their intended target, and that means they will be hitting somewhere near by. How's a neglegent homicide or manslaughter charge sound to you, hero?

#3, if you do shoot, whether the BG's gun is loaded, or even real for that matter, won't make much difference. you have met your points of articulation for a shoot. The BG is making an overt threat of lethal force in the furtherance of a felony crime of violence against you, or someone you are legally entitled to defend. You were not the initial aggressor in the situation, and have no reasonable avenue of escape that reduces the danger to yourself without engaging. Whether it is wise to actually engage is a completely seperate matter, but legally, this one is going to be a good shoot.

#4, There are approximately 16,000 murders in this country per year. Of those, only 1000 had robbery as an underlying motive. Compare that to the approximately 445,000 robbery offenses in this country per year, and yes that's ROBBERY, not Burglary, theft with an underlying threat or use of force, and you notice that only about .2% of robberies end with a homicide. You've got a better chance of winning the pick 3 in the lottery. Flat truth is a robbery rarely ends in a homicide. Don't let the fact that a robbery is happening drive you to believe a killing is next. Sure, it can and does happen. But look for other clues to tell you if that's the direction the thing is headed, not the fact that someone is cleaning out the till.

Your best baseline action is going to be to sit tight behind cover, observe carefully, and do nothing further. something else may trigger a more aggressive response, herding people into the back, increasing aggression in the face of a compliant victim, becoming target fixated or "distant", etc, but unless something ups the ante, let the BG take the till and leave. No bullets in the air is a much more survivable situation for all concerned, good guys included. people die in gunfights, and sometimes, even when everything goes right, that includes the righteous shooter.

:faint: Home of the brave? It's getting so that I'm embarrassed to be an American!

degoodman
03-23-2010, 15:46
Why don't you just crawl into the potty and piss all over yourself in fear? :faint: It's getting so that I'm embarrassed to be an American!

Who pissed all over themselves in fear. I stated a number of rational actions designed to bring about the best possible outcome given the stated circumstances, up to and including possible engagement of the target with gunfire should that become necessary.

Just because I don't have the bloodlust to detonate the claymore that I concealed in the candy rack under the counter before low crawling back to the water cooler to make my selection and avoid detection doesn't invalidate those responses.

I think your mommy wants you upstairs to see if you've finished your homework before you eat your spaghetti-o's and go to bed. Get moving, Junior.

Glolt20-91
03-24-2010, 02:18
Oh, Oh, I gotta good one !!!

Let's say you are driving by a nuclear missile silo in North Dakota, and you notice a group of men dressed in black robes with black turbans... One of them is wearing a leather jacket that says "Al Queda Rules".

You notice they have a massive amount of welding / cutting/ construction equipment, and they are trying to remove the blast doors to the missile silo. you also notice that only one of these guys is armed. He has an AK47.

You pull over to the side of the road, and they don't see you. You remove the AR-15 (with excellent optics, folding bipod and match grade HP ammo) from the trunk of your car. You also have your Glock 27 with 3.5 lb trigger and steel guide rod and tritium night sights, a Sig P230 with crimson trace grips, and also a scandium frame SW 38 revolver in an ankle holster.

You have an excellent shot at the sole armed guy. Your intimate knowledge of missile silo construction leads you to believe that they will be through the doors in just minutes...

What do you do ?

==============

This is an easy one to answer, upgrade your optics and bring some friends;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/Cool/ussiowabb61fa9-166-5.jpg

:cool:

Bob :cowboy:

Glolt20-91
03-24-2010, 02:20
Who pissed all over themselves in fear. I stated a number of rational actions designed to bring about the best possible outcome given the stated circumstances, up to and including possible engagement of the target with gunfire should that become necessary.

Just because I don't have the bloodlust to detonate the claymore that I concealed in the candy rack under the counter before low crawling back to the water cooler to make my selection and avoid detection doesn't invalidate those responses.

I think your mommy wants you upstairs to see if you've finished your homework before you eat your spaghetti-o's and go to bed. Get moving, Junior.

Betcha can't guess the only GT member who is on my ignore list. :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

MTPD
03-24-2010, 07:43
Maybe we look at the stats differently (assuming they are legit)? 1,000 innocents murdered during armed robberies is certainly enough of a threat to justify taking pre-emptive action against armed robbers. In fact, FOX showed a video just this morning of a store clerk being murdered during a robbery.

The facts of life (and death) during any encounter with armed felons is this: Wait too long to shoot and you and/or other innocents just might be murdered. Robbery/murders usually happed fast, real fast. There isn't time to be mulling over meaningless stats or trying to play multiple choice games.

The last "victim" I interviewed (a pharmacist) explained what he did because of a previous robbery where he thought he was going to be killed. He planned ahead about exactly what he was going to the next time. (1) He was going to pretend like he was complying. (2) He was immediately going to walk to the cash register (where his .357 mag was hidden) draw and fire.

Later, when a masked armed robber did in fact try to rob him, he did exactly as he had pre-planned. The feon was dead before he hit the floor, never got a shot off.

My advice? Pre-plan and be ready, willing and able to execute a lightning fast pre-emptive first strike when your life is threatened.

David Armstrong
03-24-2010, 07:43
I stated a number of rational actions
Well heck, there is the problem....you suggested RATIONAL actions!

dgg9
03-24-2010, 09:50
My advice? Pre-plan and be ready, willing and able to execute a lightning fast pre-emptive first strike when your life is threatened.

But of course that's not what you said earlier. In the scenario as described, it's the clerk's life being threatened, not yours.

Your advice is predicated on the fantasy that you will draw, shoot, and the BG will be instantly incapacitated, his gun dropped at once, harmlessly.

The reality is that if you start shooting, and even if you hit the BG, then the BG might shoot too, and bystanders get shot.

So the real question is: has the situation become dangerous enough (i.e., not the typical armed robbery where no one gets killed) such that escalation is preferable?

ETA: needless to say, if you and the robber are the only actors -- he's robbing you, and no one else is around -- that changes the calculation. But that's not the stated scenario.

zoyter2
03-24-2010, 13:45
First I do a tactical roll to the household good aisle. Standing in front of hundreds of explosive bottles of soft drinks is a disadvantageous tactical element but having studied the contents of all convenience stores, I know the typical household goods aisle is the most dense and offers the best protection should the bad guy be lucky enough to get off a shot.

As the roll is completed (during which I had drawn and racked the slide on my tactical 1911 and pulled on my black nomex baklava (I don't carry with one in the chamber, but always practice tactical rolls and such when I practice the art of killing) I rise into a perfect isometric shooting stance, taking the critical split second to make sure my tactical Old Timer folder is still in place on my tactical vest as you never know when an gunfight may turn into a knife fight. Once that is completed, I do a controlled pair in the general direction of the BG. These shots (not intended to actually HIT) serve as a warning that there is a sheepdog in the area, and to draw the attention away from the innocents I protect and cause the BG to focus on ME. I have the gun, I have the vest, and I have the tactical baklav on (this sight WILL shock and intimidate the BG into "freezing up". Then, I always give the BG a chance to drop his weapon, and if he chooses not to, I open fire with what I call "scattered fire". This is a tactical maneuver I invented in which I shoot everywhere except directly AT the BG. (Notice, this explains why when training to kill on the range, my targets only have a FEW holes...duhhhh targets can't run!) If he attempts to run, which faced with an armed sheepdog, most will, he will simply run into a wall of .45 acp rounds, no matter where he goes.

One hit, even to the hand, and the BG is down and dying. I will immediately secure the area, extending to the parking lot and any surrounding areas (hello???? what if he has a sniper covering his getaway?), I will go back, make sure he has bled out and died, and then and ONLY THEN, holster my two guns. ( I always have ONE IN EACH HAND when I secure a scene. If the BG's partner is there, I don't have to turn to shoot him, but merely shoot him with either gun, and continue scanning the area.)

Everything is over. I give myself a minute to allow the adrenaline to stop coursing through my body. (This takes a minute as at 360 pounds and 5'10, there is a LOT of adrenaline coursing through me).

As I walk out, I spit on the body of the fool who dared try to rob MY store (when I am somewhere, as a sheepdog, I consider it MINE), and walk outside. I always wait around few minutes because some chick WILL drive up, and remember, CHICK DIG HEROS, especially live ones. It is my DUTY to live past the battle. I am armed. I am a sheepdog. God Bless me and all others.

Gallium
03-24-2010, 16:32
But of course that's not what you said earlier. In the scenario as described, it's the clerk's life being threatened, not yours.

Your advice is predicated on the fantasy that you will draw, shoot, and the BG will be instantly incapacitated, his gun dropped at once, harmlessly.

The reality is that if you start shooting, and even if you hit the BG, then the BG might shoot too, and bystanders get shot.

So the real question is: has the situation become dangerous enough (i.e., not the typical armed robbery where no one gets killed) such that escalation is preferable?

ETA: needless to say, if you and the robber are the only actors -- he's robbing you, and no one else is around -- that changes the calculation. But that's not the stated scenario.


But then how else would the rest of us appear to be incompetent, effeminate, whimpering wenches? :supergrin:

moncoacp
03-24-2010, 19:56
I always wait around few minutes because some chick WILL drive up, and remember, CHICK DIG HEROS, especially live ones.

But they don't hump fat guys so take back the Twinkies you pocketed during all the confusion.

zoyter2
03-24-2010, 20:36
but they don't hump fat guys so take back the twinkies you pocketed during all the confusion.

i'm not fat, i'm big boned!!!!!

moncoacp
03-25-2010, 08:40
i'm not fat, i'm big boned!!!!!

Me too! Nah, I'm fat. But you still should not have pocketed the Twinkies as a reward for saving the day.

zoyter2
03-25-2010, 10:53
Me too! Nah, I'm fat. But you still should not have pocketed the Twinkies as a reward for saving the day.

Guilty Sir! :supergrin:

btmj
03-25-2010, 11:17
As the roll is completed (during which I had drawn and racked the slide on my tactical 1911 and pulled on my black nomex baklava (I don't carry with one in the chamber, but always practice tactical rolls and such when I practice the art of killing) I rise into a perfect isometric shooting stance, taking the critical split second to make sure my tactical Old Timer folder is still in place on my tactical vest as you never know when an gunfight may turn into a knife fight. .

:rofl: Holy crap I almost choked on my lunch. Hats off to you, my friend... that was funny.

kunlao21
03-25-2010, 13:06
:rofl: Holy crap I almost choked on my lunch. Hats off to you, my friend... that was funny.

LOL... But at what point does the CCW badge come out???

degoodman
03-25-2010, 13:31
When the police summon the Mayor, County Commissioners, Governor, and President of the United States to present you with the Key to the City, Medal of Valor, and Presidential Medal of Freedom on the spot on the 6 O'Clock news silly.

Jeeze, you must be new here...

RyanNREMTP
03-25-2010, 13:59
I can tell this scenario doesn't take place where I live, we don't have any 7-11s here.

PhoneCop
03-25-2010, 14:49
Situation:

You are grabbing a bottle of your favorite beverage at a local 7-11. When you hear the door burst open and observe a masked and armed individual start yelling and harassing the clerk for money. You are a CCW holder and are armed. You dive for the end of the isle and appear to have not been noticed. You can see where the perp is and know that if you wanted it, you'd have a clear shot. However, the shot would be to the perps back. There is nowhere to retreat since you are the back of the store and you do not appear to be in any immediate danger, however the clerk is not in such a desirable position as you. Assuming that you cannot call 911 as your voice would alert the perp to your presence what would your course of action be? Open fire to prevent the clerks slaughter (which may or may not even happen...who knows if the perps gun is even loaded)? Or stay put and only shoot if the perp comes after you? I'd be esp interested to hear any LEO or former LEO input. Assume best case state laws.

*Situation is hypothetical and yes most likely beaten to death. It is intended to see what the consensus is among good hearted, common sensed, civilian sheep dogs*

:rofl:

Welcome to GT!!!! :wavey:

PhoneCop
03-25-2010, 14:52
I will immediately secure the area, extending to the parking lot and any surrounding areas (hello???? what if he has a sniper covering his getaway?)

Better plan to stop .338 lapua... two plates?

deadcalm4u
03-25-2010, 19:03
.....

MTPD
03-29-2010, 08:45
But of course that's not what you said earlier. In the scenario as described, it's the clerk's life being threatened, not yours.

Your advice is predicated on the fantasy that you will draw, shoot, and the BG will be instantly incapacitated, his gun dropped at once, harmlessly.

The reality is that if you start shooting, and even if you hit the BG, then the BG might shoot too, and bystanders get shot.

So the real question is: has the situation become dangerous enough (i.e., not the typical armed robbery where no one gets killed) such that escalation is preferable?

ETA: needless to say, if you and the robber are the only actors -- he's robbing you, and no one else is around -- that changes the calculation. But that's not the stated scenario.

Any time you are in a small store during an armed robbery (clerk or customer)your life is at risk. In my experience, the vast majority of people shot center mass with a powerful round will either drop right there, or will be incapable of accurate return fire. There are a few well known exceptions that always seem to get quoted over and over, but I never personally saw any.

Granted, your life is at risk either way. But, as you know, I am of the opinion that those who shoot first and get solid upper torso hits with effective ammo are almost certain of surviving. But, like everything else in life, it's not guranteed, which is why we carry hi-cap pistolas.

And, bear in mind, I'm assuming I have a clear field of fire. Otherwise, I'd wait until I did.

dgg9
03-29-2010, 15:50
Any time you are in a small store during an armed robbery (clerk or customer)your life is at risk.

And anytime you escalate a robbery into a gunfight, not only you, but everyone else in the store, is at risk. The thinking man weighs those risks.

In my experience, the vast majority of people shot center mass with a powerful round will either drop right there, or will be incapable of accurate return fire.

Your undocumented "experience" is worth exactly nothing to anyone else.

Even taken on its own terms, your advice still fails. The BG doesn't have to return accurate fire to kill the clerk and bystanders who are nearby him.

MTPD
03-30-2010, 09:29
dgg, let me explain what a gunfight is: It is BOTH sides shooting at each other. I've never been involved in a gunfight, only shooting situations. The difference is this: In shooting situations one person shoots and hits first, the other either drops or is incapacitated and surrenders or tries to flee.

It seems to me that too many here are of the impression that "GUNFIGHTS" happen almost every time shots are fired. But that's not true. On my old department we had lots of shooting situations, but only one gunfight. And as for civilians, only one of many ghetto shooting situations turnerd into a gunfight, and that's because both sides drew and fired at the very same instant.

But...........what ever floats your boat!

Currahee
03-30-2010, 10:25
In my experience, the vast majority of people shot center mass with a powerful round will either drop right there, or will be incapable of accurate return fire. There are a few well known exceptions that always seem to get quoted over and over, but I never personally saw any.


:rofl:

I only worry that someone new to GlockTalk who doesn't know better would take anything you say seriously.

Why don't you post some of your stories over at Lightfighter? I'm sure everyone there would love the benefit of your vast experience. :rofl:

dgg9
03-30-2010, 10:40
dgg, let me explain what a gunfight is: It is BOTH sides shooting at each other.

That's YOUR definition. And it's an obvious dodge from what we're all talking about: there's a holdup. The BG is holding a gun and the clerk and bystanders are nearby. The BG is not threatening YOU. What to do?

For all your semantic bait and switch, the problem boils down to this: if you elect to shoot at the BG, he may not drop instantly. He may well get some shots off, and his shots could indiscriminately hit the clerk, the bystanders, and maybe even YOU, despite your mythology.

The difference is this: In shooting situations one person shoots and hits first, the other either drops or is incapacitated and surrenders or tries to flee.

The fact that you think this is the invariable rule excludes you from serious discussion.

David Armstrong
03-30-2010, 14:39
from MTPD:
Any time you are in a small store during an armed robbery (clerk or customer)your life is at risk.
Any time you are any where your life is at risk. The trick is being able to accurately determine how much risk there is and minimize the potential loss of resources.
In my experience, the vast majority of people shot center mass with a powerful round will either drop right there, or will be incapable of accurate return fire.
Putting aside all the problems about your alleged "experience", so what? Accurate return fire is not needed to injure folks, nor is there much of a guarantee the BG wil drop right there.
But, like everything else in life, it's not guranteed, which is why we carry hi-cap pistolas.
Really? I've been around a bit, and I have never heard anyone (before now!) say the reason to carry a high-capacity pistol was that there was no guarantee "....those who shoot first and get solid upper torso hits with effective ammo are almost certain of surviving."