When and if to pull... [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : When and if to pull...


DeltaBravo
03-18-2010, 22:36
Situation:

Getting gas at a gas station on I-24 in Tennesee. 22yr old male exits vehicle and begins pumping. Individual is a CCW holder and returns nozzle to pump then goes inside with young female passenger to use the facilities and buy a drink for both. Upon return to vehicle young man notices a domestic dispute near a car on the other side of the lot. Older man appears to be drunk and beating woman with him. First instinct is to call 911 and report situation but not hanging up. It is observed that the man is not stopping the assault. Concerned for the woman's safety you tell the young woman with you to stay in the vehicle and stay on the phone with the police. She locks the doors. Young man stays near vehicle and issues verbal command to cease and that the police have been notified and are on the way. Enraged the older man starts to walk toward you when you notice a hand reach to the small of his back. You immediately start making side steps to draw attention away from your vehicle and other pedestrians. You yell for the man to stop where he is to no avail. As he advances further and is issuing verbal threats you begin to reach for (but not pull) your concealed weapon. The man is not stopping. He draws a weapon and begins to sight you in. At this point what would the consensus be? You are clear of other people and vehicles, the police have not arrived yet. Are you cleared to open fire since you fear for your own personal safety and the man appears to be have the worst intent?

*Situation is hypothetical and yes most likely beaten to death. It is intended to see what the consensus is among good hearted, common sensed, civilian sheep dogs*

GRR
03-18-2010, 23:37
Why would you think not?

DeltaBravo
03-18-2010, 23:40
Why would you think not?

Because you initiated your own involvement in the situation, thereby inviting trouble. Just a thought

GRR
03-18-2010, 23:44
Because you initiated your own involvement in the situation, thereby inviting trouble. Just a thought

So, you let the guy shoot you?

degoodman
03-18-2010, 23:55
There's a pattern emerging here. I pray I'm wrong.

Lesson #1, stay the hell out of domestics. I got in the middle of one once. Unless a gun comes out or someone loses consciousness and the beating continues, it won't happen again.

#2, and far more critical, if you're asking if its appropriate to draw and engage an individual who is raising a firearm to engage you, you have no business carrying a concealed firearm in the first place, because you are not mentally prepared to deploy it effectively. It is time to seek training out from a real live human who is qualified to teach defensive tactics, and take a class from them before strapping on a firearm again.

This is not meant to be personal, but you've got a whopping 24 posts here, yet you've squarely zeroed in two of the situations that are known to stir the pot really bad, really fast, and you've done in within a few minutes in consecutive posts. That's probably not a good idea if you want people to respond civilly. Just a fair piece of advice.

DeltaBravo
03-18-2010, 23:55
So, you let the guy shoot you?

Never said that. Just speculating. We're it I, I would most likely not involve myself past calling the police. Only if he initiated offensive action in my direction would I consider escalation of force. And to add something I left out, yes I would defend myself. When I asked if you are cleared, I simply meant are you legally protected since it WAS YOU who stepped into an already bad situation. I would venture a guess no.

Kona
03-18-2010, 23:56
Shoot him. This is simple. He is pointing a gun at you.

DeltaBravo
03-19-2010, 00:01
There's a pattern emerging here. I pray I'm wrong.

This is not meant to be personal, but you've got a whopping 24 posts here, yet you've squarely zeroed in two of the situations that are known to stir the pot really bad, really fast, and you've done in within a few minutes in consecutive posts. That's probably not a good idea if you want people to respond civilly. Just a fair piece of advice.

Fair enough. And good advice thus far. However, do not assume that 24 posts here indicates either inexperience or ignorance. First, this is not the only forum I frequent, it is simply the newest membership. Second, my whole purpose in asking these HYPOTHETICAL questions is to test the waters of a different group of individuals and see what the group dynamic/group think are. I am not fishing for answers I want to hear, nor am I looking to get off on a justifiable situation to engage. When it comes to firearms and carrying I demand nothing less than discernment and practical common sense (within legal boundaries). Satisfied?

ronin.45
03-19-2010, 00:40
In my opinion when he started advancing on you and not responding to your commands to stop you had every right to draw your weapon. He was acting aggressive and you had a legitimate fear for your safety. If he continued to advance and draw his own weapon you had every legal right to defend yourself.

Remember drawing your weapon is not the issue firing your weapon is the issue. Many times the simple act of bringing the gun out could diffuse the situation. Any man that still comes at you once your gun is out has nothing but bad intentions.

GRR
03-19-2010, 06:31
Never said that. Just speculating. We're it I, I would most likely not involve myself past calling the police. Only if he initiated offensive action in my direction would I consider escalation of force. And to add something I left out, yes I would defend myself. When I asked if you are cleared, I simply meant are you legally protected since it WAS YOU who stepped into an already bad situation. I would venture a guess no.

Well DB, I don't think that hollering at a guy to stop beating a woman is the wrong thing to do. By your scenario the BG DID initiate offensive action by point a gun at you, which was certainly not justified because you were yelling at him.

inthefrey
03-19-2010, 07:06
**BANG BANG BANG** He's pointing a gun at you!!!

Oh, I forgot.
If threat still exists, **BANG BANG BANG**

Matt Berry
03-19-2010, 08:45
First mistake was not drawing prior to him pulling his weapon. You should have already had pistol out and ready as soon as he stopped responding to commands and coming after you. The other act of reaching with his hands for a possible weapon is enough justification to say you were in fear for your life and the threat needed to be stopped.

RyanNREMTP
03-19-2010, 08:46
If he's just beating the woman and not using the gun, call 911 and be a good witness. Take some pictures but do not get involved unless it spills over.

For the second part, once he starts drawing, so am I.

Beware Owner
03-19-2010, 08:59
I can't sit by and watch a lady get hit by a man, which may constitute a disparity of force, this is no longer a dispute, it's now an assault. Still, he draws to me, he gets shot.

David Armstrong
03-19-2010, 09:53
from degoodman:
Lesson #1, stay the hell out of domestics. I got in the middle of one once. Unless a gun comes out or someone loses consciousness and the beating continues, it won't happen again.
Plus 1. Why so many folks are so eager to personally get themselves involved in so many things that they really should stay out of is beyond me.

shnifty
03-19-2010, 10:08
1. I would decide to get involved depending on how hard he was hitting her. If it looks like they are going to be legitimately injured, I would intervene.

2. If I did in fact intervene, I would probably already have my gun ready and moved into a coat pocket or at least be mentally prepared to draw as fast as possible. I did not physically threaten him so he had no right to charge towards me or draw a weapon. That means that he's the one being offensive and I would have to defend myself.

Glenn E. Meyer
03-19-2010, 10:30
I think it is very amusing that the post was a projective psychological test to see how nutty Glock Talk members are.

Next time can we have ink blots? Doc, I see someone with a 1911 intervening in an alien attack.

degoodman
03-19-2010, 10:44
Fair enough. And good advice thus far. However, do not assume that 24 posts here indicates either inexperience or ignorance. First, this is not the only forum I frequent, it is simply the newest membership. Second, my whole purpose in asking these HYPOTHETICAL questions is to test the waters of a different group of individuals and see what the group dynamic/group think are. I am not fishing for answers I want to hear, nor am I looking to get off on a justifiable situation to engage. When it comes to firearms and carrying I demand nothing less than discernment and practical common sense (within legal boundaries). Satisfied?

Good enough for me. And now I'll pull out the "Why" on whether or not I'll involve myself in a domestic ever again unless I think someone is about to die.

I fortunately found the post from a few years back so I don't have to retype much. From the thread http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=904871

Another one was at a walmart, where a dude and his wife were having a domestic in the parking lot. He was yelling at her really good, and at this point I would have let securitas handle him when they got around, but then he hauled off and backhanded her hard enough to knock her down. I yelled a quick "HEY!" over at him as my wife called 911. Well, he immediately locks eyes on me and starts walking over. I moved to meet him because I wanted my wife out of the action, but it was clearly evident that he was coming over and that he meant to have a piece of me next. When he's about a row of cars over, I had stopped to be able to keep cars between us if he came up with anything serious, I told him to just get out of here, the cops were on their way, and that I really didn't feel like getting into it with him any farther. This didn't impress him, and he kept coming.

I sprayed him over the trunk of a parked car. He was clearly effected, but I was not close enough to him when I initially sprayed him to paint him really good. He kinda went down on the ground on one knee, so I moved around the car so I could see him, because at this point I felt like leaving before the cops got there would have been a mistake, so I needed to know he was down. He did start to get up once, but that time I painted him a little more and gave him a quick shot in the ribs to discourage him doing that any more.

It took the cops about 5 minutes to get there, and when they got there, I backed up off of him with my hands kinda up and out so they knew I wasn't the probblem here. They cuffed him up at which point the fun started. #1 as soon as he was in bracelets, he gets really really mouthy, how he's going to eff-me-up and all that stuff, how I attacked him, bla bla bla. Then his old lady comes over, with her freshly acquired shiner and all, and starts in on the whole "big misunderstanding" thing, he really wasn't doing anything, I started it with him first and on and on. At one point I think she actually asserted that she fell and hit a car and that he didn't hit her at all. Is is a bad sign, however, when the cops knew both party's first names?

They ended up taking them both, her on warrants and violating a protective order he had against her, and him for the fresh domestic and for violating a PO she had against him. The cops did warm me that he may try and be a dick and file for a TPO or try and file charges against me for getting involved, but that if he did that, the prosecutor was very on-board with countering his moves, and that they'd do everything they could to minimize the inconvenience to me if he started monkeying around. Fortunately, he never did

The presented hypothetical is already well past that point. The BG is approaching you, and you've mentioned a hand to the small of the back. Given the whole "totality of circumstances," he's probably not looking to give you a business card from his wallet, so in addition to movement to cover or to create distance, I would definitely get a hand on my weapon, if not draw it depending on the statutes in play where you are. In Ohio, and based on my training including some provided by certified LE Instructors in Ohio, I would have a firearm in hand at that point. Furtive movements is a subject of broad debate, and alone probably do not justify a use of lethal force, but drawing a firearm as a preparatory response is NOT a use of deadly force. Know if that is the case in your jurisdiction before you act.

When he went on to produce a weapon and further began to raise it in my direction, lethal force would be applied until that threat is removed. As far as specific tactics to deploy, we need to keep in mind it is more important to not get shot than it is to shoot, so if I wasn't already behind cover, I'm thinking to haul the mail to get to some, etc., but you are definitely in a lethal force encounter and need to be responding accordingly. All of the critical elements of the AOJ triangle have been met, and he has further committed overt acts that indicate his intention to visit great bodliy injury or death on you. If this isn't the time to initiate a lethal force response, I don't know what is.

DeltaBravo
03-19-2010, 11:00
Good enough for me. And now I'll pull out the "Why" on whether or not I'll involve myself in a domestic ever again unless I think someone is about to die.

I fortunately found the post from a few years back so I don't have to retype much. From the thread http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=904871



The presented hypothetical is already well past that point. The BG is approaching you, and you've mentioned a hand to the small of the back. Given the whole "totality of circumstances," he's probably not looking to give you a business card from his wallet, so in addition to movement to cover or to create distance, I would definitely get a hand on my weapon, if not draw it depending on the statutes in play where you are. In Ohio, and based on my training including some provided by certified LE Instructors in Ohio, I would have a firearm in hand at that point. Furtive movements is a subject of broad debate, and alone probably do not justify a use of lethal force, but drawing a firearm as a preparatory response is NOT a use of deadly force. Know if that is the case in your jurisdiction before you act.

When he went on to produce a weapon and further began to raise it in my direction, lethal force would be applied until that threat is removed. As far as specific tactics to deploy, we need to keep in mind it is more important to not get shot than it is to shoot, so if I wasn't already behind cover, I'm thinking to haul the mail to get to some, etc., but you are definitely in a lethal force encounter and need to be responding accordingly. All of the critical elements of the AOJ triangle have been met, and he has further committed overt acts that indicate his intention to visit great bodliy injury or death on you. If this isn't the time to initiate a lethal force response, I don't know what is.

Roger that. Very good read. Thanks

DeltaBravo
03-19-2010, 11:02
I think it is very amusing that the post was a projective psychological test to see how nutty Glock Talk members are.


You said nutty. Not me. In fact, you are the first to apply that label that I have yet seen. Different forums, different patrons, different cultures. Since when is it odd to pose a question and simply listen?

volsbear
03-19-2010, 11:11
It's virtually too late to react in the situation you describe. Body mechanics, in particular reaction time, are working against you. He has made a decision to shoot you, he has drawn his weapon, he has aimed his weapon at you, and now he is preparing to fire.

You don't live in fantasy land. What we know about human reaction time is that unless this guy can't hit the floor with his hat, you're shot.

The time to make the decision was when he began to reach for something behind the small of his back. Otherwise, you're asking your brain and body to make a 1.5 second decision/reaction in less than a half a second.

You're a dead man.

Are you legally protected? I don't know... I'm not certain of the laws in Tennessee. I would guess probably yes. He is committing a violent crime, you chose to intervene because of the risk of the victim sustaining a life threatening injury, and he attacked you.

But honestly - in the scenario you describe, you really don't have to worry about civil/criminal liability for your actions. You're already dead :)

Beware Owner
03-19-2010, 11:49
Actually, the best thing to do is to first go for cover and then return well directed fire.

Glenn E. Meyer
03-19-2010, 12:26
Like I said, the aloof mode of posing a well known queston to determine the culture as compared to using search has a touch of hubris.

Enjoy.

DeltaBravo
03-19-2010, 15:46
Like I said, the aloof mode of posing a well known queston to determine the culture as compared to using search has a touch of hubris.

Enjoy.

Perceive it as you will.

LEAD
03-19-2010, 15:56
The guy beating the woman would have been drawn on before a call was made to the police. If I could do both at once, I would, but since every second he is able to continue beating her she is likely sustaining injury that could possible be fatal.

Heres how my hypo goes:

Older man appears to be drunk and beating woman with him. I tell the woman to go get help inside. Yell to the man to stop, if he dosn't I draw on him and state that if he continues or advances me he will be shot.

Option A: He stops, I don't shoot him I try to take plate information and pictures before he attempts to flee.

Option B: He dosn't stop, I shoot him

Option C: He Stops beating her and comes at me, he gets told to stop and if he dosn't he gets ventilated.

The moral here, don't beat women.

volsbear
03-19-2010, 16:27
The guy beating the woman would have been drawn on before a call was made to the police. If I could do both at once, I would, but since every second he is able to continue beating her she is likely sustaining injury that could possible be fatal.

Heres how my hypo goes:

Older man appears to be drunk and beating woman with him. I tell the woman to go get help inside. Yell to the man to stop, draw on him and state that if he continues or advances me he will be shot.

Option A: He stops, I don't shoot him I try to take plate information and pictures before he attempts to flee.

Option B: He dosn't stop, I shoot him

Option C: He Stops beating her and comes at me, he gets told to stop and if he dosn't he gets ventilated.

The moral here, don't beat women.

Another moral here is that you took all the action. You made a decision and a plan and stick to it and you let HIM react to you. No fight is fair, but here you have tipped the odds slightly in your favor. In the OP's scenario, he loses because he puts himself in a position where he must react to the attacker - that's an instant LOSE. The OP tipped the odds SIGNIFICANTLY into the attacker's favor. Action always wins over reaction.

The aftermath headline of the OP's plan is "Good samaritan shot after trying to thwart attack."

Glock30 Guy
03-19-2010, 17:07
This may sound terrible, but I would not get involved initially. I would call 911 and remain on the side. But you need to realize that its OK to shoot when you are about to be shot. My gun would have been drawn when he reached for something under his jacket. Once identified as a gun, he gets one warning and then three slugs. If you are unprepared to do so or not clear on the rules of engagement, you need to get that info and be clear on it before carrying anything.

LEAD
03-19-2010, 17:48
Why would you let a woman continue to be beaten, possibly to the point of death, likely to the point of severe injury. If I fear for someones life or feel they are getting severely injurred, Im not going to stand idly by while they get beat/raped/murdered. Obviously if I felt the situation could be de-escalated by other means, i.e. strong words, or fistycuffs, I would prefer to take that route; however if those don't seem to be viable options, I would prefer the victim makes it out of the situation better off than the attacker, I would hope someone would do the same if it were my mother/sister/friend/daughter/ or lover on the business end of this beatdown.

What some of you seem to be indicating is that it ok for this person to be in the midst of a beating until the authorities arrive. I don't know about where you guys live, but out here it takes a solid ten for 5-0 to arrive at the scene, and latley I would think the guy would be shot by the police anyways and the only difference is that the female victim would be worse for wear and I would avoid a trial.

For fear of incarceration, or fear of being unhumain to the agressor, why is it that you feel it is right not to take affirmative action?

Oh and I re-read what I had written, and it should've read "I yell at the man to stop, if he dosn't I draw on him"

DanRoid
03-19-2010, 18:18
I do agree with what you said. If the man is hitting her close fisted, beating the PooP outta her what part of "to prevent serious bodily harm, or death" is hard to understand. It doesn't say if its toward you! That could be the beginning of a rape or murder, and if that was you're Mother, sister, wife...etc and nobody got involved to put a stop to it how would you feel?? I'm not out looking for a fight and don't want to be a super hero( I'm already a SuPPer Hero...LoL) but seriously that's why we carry a weapon for protection, not just for our protection, but others also. If we go by logic of we can't intervine if there is an assault, then if you go in a pay for you're gas come back out and you're wife/GF wanted to stretch her leggs and the same guy is beating on you're her for whatever reason, that means you aren't alloud to intervine because it wasn't directed towads you...just call the Police and stand back and hope they get there reall quick

sapper1911
03-19-2010, 18:36
Well I hate scenario what ifs, but I'll bite on the it’s not your business/stay out of domestics/be a good witness argument.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
About 2 years ago I was on patrol on a lovely sunday afternoon. There are 4 departments on our radio and a river runs through all 4 of them. We get a report of a teenage kid that fell in at the farthest up river jurisdiction. Most of us went to spots that we can see the river in order to help. A short time latter, a call goes out of a domestic battery in progress at a park smack dab in the middle of the county. 3 of the 4 jurisdictions respond. Radio then tells us that a male is choking a young male inside of a car. Soon thereafter we get reports of the male hitting a female with a bat. I was the 2nd on scene by about 30 seconds and he was already being cuffed. He gave up immediately when confronted. By the way, It took more than 5 minutes at well over 100 for me to get there. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
The good citizens (about 20 half of which were men) that called 911 didn't think it was their place to intervene. All survived, but the mom who was beaten by the aluminum bat and the 12 year old son who was "rear naked choked" unconscious could have easily died. Luckily, the 1 year old was still safely strapped in her car seat. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Oh, I left out a part. One of the "good witnesses" was an off duty cop that I knew. I only knew him because he lived in the area I mostly patrolled and would often call us if his neighbors were too loud. I was too pissed to ask him if he was carrying that day (here in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State><st1:place>Illinois</st1:place></st1:State> we don't trust non-cops with guns). But even if he didn't, he could have grabbed a tire iron, brick, or just another man and attempted to stop the sob. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Moral of the story, you don't know how long it will take for the police to get there (you don’t know how far away they are or what they're doing). If a woman is being beaten by a male repeatedly, it is obvious that the male is not defending himself. This is one of those I'd rather be sued and have people mad at me than stand by and watch someone get killed, even if she will go back with him tomorrow.<o:p></o:p>

Deaf Smith
03-19-2010, 20:38
Now under Texas law you can use force, or deadly force, to protect a third party (the one getting beaten here.) And since this state has a 'stand-your-ground' law, upon seeing someone that a 'reasonable person' felt their life was in danger, you most certainly can defend them and not have to retreat.

Not talking civil suits, but as for criminal law you would be on ok ground to intervene. But you can have the woman turn and attack you for interfering (it's happened before) to save her husband.

Now if the guy advances after you have told him to stop several times and his hand disappears behind his back, you can reasonably say you are in fear of your life. You do not have to wait for the gun to appear before pulling your own. This is especially true if the other guy is much bigger than you are.

Now would I intervene? You bet your bippy. Like I said, here in Texas behavior like that is really frowned upon and as long as I did not overreact then no jury would convict me here in Texas. Might have a trial, but wife beating is a no-no here.

Oh but keep in mind, big boy rules apply. Stick your nose in anything don’t cry if it’s chopped off, for no good deed goes unpunished.

Deaf

1faSStchevy
03-19-2010, 20:45
I can't sit by and watch a lady get hit by a man, which may constitute a disparity of force, this is no longer a dispute, it's now an assault. Still, he draws to me, he gets shot.

I would have to agree with this. No way am I going to stand back while a woman gets beat to who knows, the edge of her life.

Blaster
03-19-2010, 21:13
Situation:

Getting gas at a gas station on I-24 in Tennesee. 22yr old male exits vehicle and begins pumping. Individual is a CCW holder and returns nozzle to pump then goes inside with young female passenger to use the facilities and buy a drink for both. Upon return to vehicle young man notices a domestic dispute near a car on the other side of the lot.

Allow me modify the story at this point.

Young man gets in his car and immediately drives away from the gas station while his female companion calls 911 and reports the indecent.





Older man appears to be drunk and beating woman with him. First instinct is to call 911 and report situation but not hanging up. It is observed that the man is not stopping the assault. Concerned for the woman's safety you tell the young woman with you to stay in the vehicle and stay on the phone with the police. She locks the doors. Young man stays near vehicle and issues verbal command to cease and that the police have been notified and are on the way. Enraged the older man starts to walk toward you when you notice a hand reach to the small of his back. You immediately start making side steps to draw attention away from your vehicle and other pedestrians. You yell for the man to stop where he is to no avail. As he advances further and is issuing verbal threats you begin to reach for (but not pull) your concealed weapon. The man is not stopping. He draws a weapon and begins to sight you in. At this point what would the consensus be? You are clear of other people and vehicles, the police have not arrived yet. Are you cleared to open fire since you fear for your own personal safety and the man appears to be have the worst intent?

*Situation is hypothetical and yes most likely beaten to death. It is intended to see what the consensus is among good hearted, common sensed, civilian sheep dogs*

RyanNREMTP
03-19-2010, 21:20
Just remember in a lot of domestic cases, the abused will defend the abuser no matter how smashed up their face is. They won't help you in anyway in telling the police what happened.

yesitsloaded
03-19-2010, 21:40
I can't stand guys beating up on women - and given the facts are as you stated them, an using the law in my state (Florida), I would be on it: I would have attempted to find cover, drawn my weapon, taken aim and told him to stop. If he didn't, I would have double-tapped him without a moments hesitation. If the victim was privileged to use deadly force to stop a forcible felony, so privileged is another.

Below are the relevant Florida Statutes

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="600"><tbody><tr></tr><tr><td>776.012 Use of force in defense of person.--A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony ...
</td></tr></tbody></table>
776.08 Forcible felony.--"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

776.085 Defense to civil action for damages; party convicted of forcible or attempted forcible felony.--
(1) It shall be a defense to any action for damages for personal injury or wrongful death, or for injury to property, that such action arose from injury sustained by a participant during the commission or attempted commission of a forcible felony. The defense authorized by this section shall be established by evidence that the participant has been convicted of such forcible felony or attempted forcible felony, or by proof of the commission of such crime or attempted crime by a preponderance of the evidence.
(2) For the purposes of this section, the term "forcible felony" shall have the same meaning as in s. 776.08.

degoodman
03-19-2010, 21:51
Just remember in a lot of domestic cases, the abused will defend the abuser no matter how smashed up their face is. They won't help you in anyway in telling the police what happened.

This.

Or, as stated in my story, they will outright lie to the police in an attempt to implicate you in a crime that didn't happen.

Or actually come at you like a cornered cat as soon as you lay a finger on their dear sweet man, and now you've got two people you may have to shoot.

Its a terrible thing to say, but its the honest to God truth. There are no first time domestics. Yes, technically there is a first time for everyone, but ask any street cop anywhere what percentage of the DV's they respond to they or a squadmate have interacted with the parties before. What percentage of beaten women have temporary or permenant protective orders out against their abuser, yet they voluntarily go right back to them at their first chance, or bail them out of jail, even as the bruises have yet to heal, or the cuts have yet to begin to close. Its frankly an illness, or maybe its an addiction. But whatever it is, getting into the middle of it will bring nothing but misory to you, and potentially your family too.

Don't take my word for it. Please. Ask a social worker, street cop, or city attorney. Dealing with domestic abuse is miserable thankless work for experts. For amateurs, its a nightmare.

I'm not here to rain on your parade or your moral code. But a rape or an unprovoked assault or robbery just aren't the same as a DV, and although trying to convey the difference in plain text is near impossible, in person they flush out really quickly. If I see a robbery rape or assault in progress, I'm probably in. But if I see a domestic, like I said i'm not going to let anyone get beaten past the point of unconsciousness, or get taken with the involvement of a weapon. Other than that, the police can deal with the mess for the 32nd time.

ronin.45
03-20-2010, 00:24
For those that say "never get involved in a domestic" I understand your thinking. However, in most situations you would be hard pressed to know whether it is a domestic or some rapist/mugger attacking a woman. I would like to think I would do everything in my power to stop a woman being beaten by anyone relative or not. I was raised to never hit a woman and that translates to never let a woman get hit.

Glock30 Guy
03-20-2010, 05:49
Like I said, it sounds terrible, but I'm not jumping into this domestic situation. I know there are laws on the books to protect me if I do help but I am not going down the road of expensive lawyers, a night in jail, dispositions, lawsuits later on, medical bills, name in newspaper, having to testify, looking over my shoulder, etc... It sounds heroic to say I'd jump in but I have too much at stake financially to risk. My gun is to protect me and my family. Everyone else gets a 911 call.

Beware Owner
03-20-2010, 12:01
I would have to agree with this. No way am I going to stand back while a woman gets beat to who knows, the edge of her life.

To me a dispute is an argument. Let them argue. An assault is someone putting their hands on another to hurt that person. If they're fighting, it's not an assault, it's an affray, and she may very well be the one hurting him. She needs to stop too, in that case, she'll get no special "priviledges", although I doubt I'll be shooting her because there may still be a disparity of force in my favor (unless she's weilding a weapon). I really don't find a need to be fighting and beating up on people other than in self defense.

Blaster
03-20-2010, 12:56
If your really want to interject yourself into these types of situations I suggest you apply at your local police academy.

David Armstrong
03-20-2010, 13:34
from degoodman:
But whatever it is, getting into the middle of it will bring nothing but misory to you, and potentially your family too.
Don't take my word for it. Please. Ask a social worker, street cop, or city attorney. Dealing with domestic abuse is miserable thankless work for experts. For amateurs, its a nightmare.
Sadly it is the amateurs who usually have the hardest time understanding this, thus they are the hardest to convince.

Snapper2
03-20-2010, 21:51
How about having woman your with leave scene/call 911. Then some how distract attacker without engaging him? Maybe the car horn or other loud noises or more people? Keep your dustance with cover nearby but let him know your not leaving the crime scene. You have to expect the fact that he might be armed so threatening him will only make things worse. What else can you do? Leave so you wont have to stand witness on a murder trial?:whistling:

Deaf Smith
03-21-2010, 11:42
Any of you ever hear of the 'bystander' effect?

Or how about Kitty Genovese? Ever hear of her?


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/51/KittyGenovese.JPG

And if the attacker had of been her spouse or boyfriend?

Liike I said, big boy rules apply. It's up to you.

Deaf

Cody Jarrett
03-21-2010, 12:07
Hypothetical situation I hope.

In NYS Article 35 of the Penal Law (Defense of Justification) allows one to exercise force to protect a third party. The force should be reasonable, not excessive. But as soon as the perp pulls a gun the life of the good samaritan is in danger. Article 35 allows him to use deadly force to protect his own life. This is as long as he didn't escalate the situation. Once the perp advanced on him, the good guy should make a reasonable attempt to retreat to his vehicle (or even drive away and watch from a safe distance) as a defensive measure. One must never fire that gun unless they're willing to ruin their own life. Depending on the laws of your state you may be allowed to stand your ground, but it sure isn't going to help to do so.

Remember that after this encounter ends, you may find yourself judged by a grand jury. They can't feel your fear or place themselves in the exact same situation. They can only get a mental ppicture of the events that unfolded based on the testimony of one side and some evidence... possibly a grainy store video. They may be comprised of liberals. Maybe they don't like violence. Maybe they're anti-gunners. Maybe they want to send a message. MAYBE YOU GET INDICTED. Here's where the real fun begins... $20,000 retainer for a good criminal defense attorney who also gets $250-$350 per hour in/out of court. You may win the trial but you won't recovery financially. Or you can take your cances with the local 18B public defender who won't do as thorough of a job as he needs. When all is finished you may find yourself sued by the perp or his family. More lawyers and expense. Kiss retirement, your home and kids college funds goodbye.

A good book to read is written by Masad Ayoob. "In the gravest extreme" discusses these elements in detail. Mas, if you're reading, please respond to this post and explain your teachings a little deeper. I learned it from you.

Cody Jarrett
03-21-2010, 12:15
How about having woman your with leave scene/call 911. Then some how distract attacker without engaging him? Maybe the car horn or other loud noises or more people? Keep your dustance with cover nearby but let him know your not leaving the crime scene. You have to expect the fact that he might be armed so threatening him will only make things worse. What else can you do? Leave so you wont have to stand witness on a murder trial?:whistling:
Stay on the line with 911, lay on the car horn, issue LOUD verbal warnings, keep moving away from the attacker, get heads turning and attention to the scene from witnesses. Get multiple people calling 911.

Many years ago I approached a guy who had struck his girl in the face twice. Knocked her to the bar floor. I slammed his face into the bar, ending the assault. She jumped up and onto my back and dug her nails in deep. She actually bit my ear. I couldn't believe this woman bit my ear! I told her I hope he beats the tar out of you and left. To this day I shake my head in disbelief over that incident. Hard to wrap my head around it. Sometimes these abused woman love their abuser.

napp32
03-21-2010, 12:29
Sadly it is the amateurs who usually have the hardest time understanding this, thus they are the hardest to convince.

:goodpost: Each time I read a thread similar to this, I cannot help but wonder how many of the Cavalier responders have ever fired a weapon at someone else. Or, more importantly, how many have gone through the experience of someone else firing a weapon at them.

I suspect I know the answer.

Snapper2
03-21-2010, 14:02
Stay on the line with 911, lay on the car horn, issue LOUD verbal warnings, keep moving away from the attacker, get heads turning and attention to the scene from witnesses. Get multiple people calling 911.

Many years ago I approached a guy who had struck his girl in the face twice. Knocked her to the bar floor. I slammed his face into the bar, ending the assault. She jumped up and onto my back and dug her nails in deep. She actually bit my ear. I couldn't believe this woman bit my ear! I told her I hope he beats the tar out of you and left. To this day I shake my head in disbelief over that incident. Hard to wrap my head around it. Sometimes these abused woman love their abuser.

You did the right thing.There is probably a very fine line between a protective instinct(wanting to render help to helpless) and the attitude of "not around me you dont" that we've been raised to have. It would be like rendering help in an auto accident with a drunk driver. You know he'll drink and drive again but he doesnt need his keys NOW or he could drive away and hurt someone else.So what if the one your helping is an ungrateful prick? They're not the issue. They attacker is. Is it all about us? I know nobody would allow something like this to happen in their home but if we allow it in our community in a sense we bring it home and live with it.

David Armstrong
03-21-2010, 17:13
:goodpost: Each time I read a thread similar to this, I cannot help but wonder how many of the Cavalier responders have ever fired a weapon at someone else. Or, more importantly, how many have gone through the experience of someone else firing a weapon at them.
I suspect I know the answer.
And I suspect you are right.

beatcop
03-23-2010, 15:22
My oversimplification:

Not sworn? Minor punch/slap? Call 911 & yell from a distance...guy wants to engage? You retreat.

As far as debating what to do if a guy is lining up a shot, move to cover (retreat)...still coming? Respond in accordance with statute and conscience.
NYPD has extensive data...people who run get shot less...imagine that.

MTPD
03-24-2010, 08:03
Lesson #1, stay the hell out of domestics....
.

I agree with that.

However, you need to be certain it is a domestic dispute, and not a rape/robbery/car-jacking in progress.

nbk9fmr
03-28-2010, 19:36
If he's just beating the woman and not using the gun, call 911 and be a good witness. Take some pictures but do not get involved unless it spills over.

For the second part, once he starts drawing, so am I.


+1 on this

GLD1980
03-29-2010, 02:04
I hate stepping in on domestic issues and violence and I generally have learned that it is best to stay out of the problems others have and make! That being said I would also believe that a State granting you the right to carry concealed would also give you a moral obligation to defend someone who's life might very well be in question. Your training and ability should enable you to to take action if needs be. Now the right steps, great question.

Me personally, I would have,

1. Called the police
2. Placed my wife out of harms way, ie. bullets and gas do not mix!
3. Informed the man, from a covered or concealed position that LEO are in route. Stop beating the woman.
4. Cell Phone pics & LIC in case he fleas.
5. If the during the beating i witnessed anything ie. (life, limb, eye sight,) like punches to the head or weapons I would have drawn on him, to persuade him to stop or I would have put well placed shots in him.

I do not think it would matter whether it was man vs man, man vs woman, or visa a versa a woman doing the damage . Deadly force is deadly force. You still must live with yourself at the end of the day. Right will always be right and wrong will always be wrong.

* Dont bring up a scenario either were a good guy is beating up a bad guy and is mistakingly shot, because it wouldnt have been a mistake! Like I said, right is right and wrong is wrong, I am not just going to shoot anyone without verbal commands and some type of escalation of force. That being said if you gain an upper hand in a fight and continue, there is probably a point where you become the criminal and not the victim anymore.

ndhill
03-29-2010, 03:14
First off, I find it unbelievable that some of you WOULDN'T get involved. As the OP said in the first post the beating was not stopping. I would think any decent human being who values life itself would step in and help the poor woman.

If it was your wife or daughter getting beat by some man I bet you'd be glad I stepped in. Oh wait, you'd rather I call the cops and sit and wait for 5+ minutes while the man beats your loved one senseless. A lot of damage can happen in 5 min.

Secondly, I would rather take the threat upon myself and spare the poor woman than to sit by idle and watch it unfold. Not happening on my watch. If it causes me injury or death I guess thats just the price I'll have to pay. I don't want to die, but I know the Good LORD, and He knows me, so I'm not to worried about death itself.

I guess I just have a higher sense of duty to my fellow man.


(side note: I probably would have already pulled my weapon when I even thought he had one. Just because I pull the weapon doesn't mean I have to pull the trigger. I'm ready to, but as another poster noted, often times the mere act of raising your gun can diffuse the situation. And depending on the state in which you live, if you had fear that the person was going to cause harm upon you then you had the right to do so.)

GLD1980
03-29-2010, 03:47
:wow:First off, I find it unbelievable that some of you WOULDN'T get involved. As the OP said in the first post the beating was not stopping. I would think any decent human being who values life itself would step in and help the poor woman.

If it was your wife or daughter getting beat by some man I bet you'd be glad I stepped in. Oh wait, you'd rather I call the cops and sit and wait for 5+ minutes while the man beats your loved one senseless. A lot of damage can happen in 5 min.

Secondly, I would rather take the threat upon myself and spare the poor woman than to sit by idle and watch it unfold. Not happening on my watch. If it causes me injury or death I guess thats just the price I'll have to pay. I don't want to die, but I know the Good LORD, and He knows me, so I'm not to worried about death itself.

I guess I just have a higher sense of duty to my fellow man.


(side note: I probably would have already pulled my weapon when I even thought he had one. Just because I pull the weapon doesn't mean I have to pull the trigger. I'm ready to, but as another poster noted, often times the mere act of raising your gun can diffuse the situation. And depending on the state in which you live, if you had fear that the person was going to cause harm upon you then you had the right to do so.)

+1

I cannot believe some people carry with the:dunno:mentality! Frankly its shocking.:wow:

MTPD
03-29-2010, 08:18
Assuming it really is just a domestic, bear in mind the old "birds of a fleather" thing, and the fact that she chose to marry/date this POS! I've responded to too many domestic disputes/fights as a cop not to recognize that there is a good chance that the female just might have started the whole thing + she just might shoot or stab "rescuers" in the back.

On the other hand, if I think it is a rape/abduction/murder in progress, the assailant is going down.

David Armstrong
03-30-2010, 14:52
First off, I find it unbelievable that some of you WOULDN'T get involved. As the OP said in the first post the beating was not stopping. I would think any decent human being who values life itself would step in and help the poor woman.
Actually, the issue is "when would you pull your firearm", not "will you get involved. Most replies have indicated they are willing to get involved. Being willing to get invovled does not mean, nor does it obligate, one to agree to employ deadly force with all the resultant problems, particularly in the extremely volatile and vague world of domestic violence.

ubersoldat
03-30-2010, 15:00
Situation:

Getting gas at a gas station on I-24 in Tennesee. 22yr old male exits vehicle and begins pumping. Individual is a CCW holder and returns nozzle to pump then goes inside with young female passenger to use the facilities and buy a drink for both. Upon return to vehicle young man notices a domestic dispute near a car on the other side of the lot. Older man appears to be drunk and beating woman with him. First instinct is to call 911 and report situation but not hanging up. It is observed that the man is not stopping the assault. Concerned for the woman's safety you tell the young woman with you to stay in the vehicle and stay on the phone with the police. She locks the doors. Young man stays near vehicle and issues verbal command to cease and that the police have been notified and are on the way. Enraged the older man starts to walk toward you when you notice a hand reach to the small of his back. You immediately start making side steps to draw attention away from your vehicle and other pedestrians. You yell for the man to stop where he is to no avail. As he advances further and is issuing verbal threats you begin to reach for (but not pull) your concealed weapon. The man is not stopping. He draws a weapon and begins to sight you in. At this point what would the consensus be? You are clear of other people and vehicles, the police have not arrived yet. Are you cleared to open fire since you fear for your own personal safety and the man appears to be have the worst intent?

*Situation is hypothetical and yes most likely beaten to death. It is intended to see what the consensus is among good hearted, common sensed, civilian sheep dogs*

Take out nozel to gas pump, let it rip full throttle, throwing it to the ground.
Wait for perfect high point in theme music, then throw your cigar onto the pools of gasoline, firing into the air with your pistol and screaming, "VIO CON DIOS" succesfully killing everyone in a 200 ft range.




If this is a serious question your asking, perhaps you should not be carrying a gun in the first place.

There is only one question one must ask before drawing weapon.

Are you in fear for your life?