S&w 1006 [Archive] - Glock Talk

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kenzo
03-24-2010, 17:32
I have a G20SF and love it. I'm new to the 10mm world and thinking about a Smith 1006. Anyone have one? How does it compare to the G20SF as far ad recoil?

usurp31
03-24-2010, 18:13
I have both (not the SF though) and both are fantastic and shoot very nicely; the 1006 is heavier and has less felt recoil overall but the 20 is a sweet shooter and very manageable as well.

kenzo
03-24-2010, 19:37
I have both (not the SF though) and both are fantastic and shoot very nicely; the 1006 is heavier and has less felt recoil overall but the 20 is a sweet shooter and very manageable as well.

Can you shoot 40 S&W out of a 1006 without modifications?

BruceO
03-24-2010, 22:09
You can NEVER shoot .40 S&W out of a 10mm autoloader barrel.

Angry Fist
03-24-2010, 22:13
Can you shoot 40 S&W out of a 1006 without modifications?

I'm pretty sure you can. After all, it's a revolver...

RyeDaddy
03-24-2010, 22:59
I'm pretty sure you can. After all, it's a revolver...

Can't tell if this was sarcasm or not, the 1006 is not a revolver. If you're mistaken, you're thinking of the Model 610.

_The_Shadow
03-24-2010, 23:02
I shoot 40 S&W for my S&W1006 but it is because I have a Bar-Sto Match Grade conversion barrel chambered for the 40S&W I also have Bar-Sto Match Grade 9X25Dillon conversion this adds some extra value and flexibility to this platform.

The 40's are cheaper to shoot and saves my 10mm brass for more pressing power situations the 10 is known for! I love my S&W 10xx pistols and also the glock 29 which is now my carry piece.

Best regards!

Angry Fist
03-25-2010, 04:00
I'm just sayin', match the ammo to the gun, unless it's a revolver (.357 & .38, etc.). Try a conversion barrel. Sorry for sarcasm...

agtman
03-25-2010, 04:35
I have both (not the SF though) and both are fantastic and shoot very nicely; the 1006 is heavier and has less felt recoil overall but the 20 is a sweet shooter and very manageable as well.

Ditto this ... I also have both.

FWIW, the real difference (besides plastic vs. steel) is: the 1006 uses a single-stack frame (for 9+1 capacity), which makes it a very slim-packing pistol if concealment is a priority, whereas the G20 is known for its double-stack girth - but then that's what also permits its higher 15+1 capacity.

There's no downside to getting both, but with the right holster & belt combination, the 1006, though heavier, conceals better for me.

:cool:

agtman
03-25-2010, 04:37
Can you shoot 40 S&W out of a 1006 without modifications?

Safely? :whistling:

You're best advised to get an aftermarket .40S&W barrel for it, and preferably to have it fitted.

Bar-Sto used to offer these and may still have some in stock.

:cool:

_The_Shadow
03-25-2010, 12:27
Bar_Sto has ceased producing any barrels for the 10xx series pistols and group buys for them have fallen by the wayside...basicly 50 barrels, paid upfront, all the same before they would consider...like $155 each piece. We tried to get a group buy of 50 357Sig conversions but that deal fell through.

It's a damn shame too because these 10xx series are tough and work well with the conversion barrel process.

Best regards!

agtman
03-25-2010, 16:34
Bar_Sto has ceased producing any barrels for the 10xx series pistols and group buys for them have fallen by the wayside...basicly 50 barrels, paid upfront, all the same before they would consider...like $155 each piece. We tried to get a group buy of 50 357Sig conversions but that deal fell through.

It's a damn shame too because these 10xx series are tough and work well with the conversion barrel process.
Best regards!

Wow ... :shocked: That's too bad, and I've found that Bar-Sto barrels are GTG.

HOV
03-29-2010, 10:37
Howzabout a S&W 610? That way you don't have to go chasing your brass around.

I'm going to get one sooner or later, just have to wait for the gun piggy bank to grow.

AJE
03-29-2010, 11:45
You can NEVER shoot .40 S&W out of a 10mm autoloader barrel.

Works fine in my Glock. I ran a whole box of .40 through it just to try it, and other than needing to clean the chamber out afterwords, it worked great. I don't make a habit out of it (I have .40S&W guns too) but it's nice to know that it works fine if I need it too.

_The_Shadow
03-29-2010, 23:20
Oh it will either go bang or the firing pin/striker will kick it off the extractor either before or during the the ignition of the primer. If the round is ignited and the cartridge is kicked forward it will slam back against the breech face and extractor, this can cause the extractor to break, primers can blow out also...not something I trust my life with!

AJE
03-30-2010, 07:02
Oh it will either go bang or the firing pin/striker will kick it off the extractor either before or during the the ignition of the primer. If the round is ignited and the cartridge is kicked forward it will slam back against the breech face and extractor, this can cause the extractor to break, primers can blow out also...not something I trust my life with!

So youv'e seen blown out primers and broken extractors as a result of using .40 in a 10mm? Or that's just what you've read online?

HOV
03-30-2010, 07:31
AJE - you have the advantage of experience, so those of us who haven't tried it can't argue your real world results. On the other hand, though you may have shot the .40S&W rounds through your pistol, you don't know what's happening in the chamber as the round ignites.

What may be happening in your pistol is this:

- Extractor instead of breech face chambers the round. The round rides the forward part of the extractor, and the extractor never engages the round during chambering. Since the extractor is on one side of the round, this force creates a moment about the vertical axis of the round and it has the tendency to rotate as it enters the chamber, making feeding not as reliable.

- When the round ignites, the forward motion of the bullet creates a reaction force on the head of the casing, which most likely unseats the primer, pushes the casing backward into the extractor, engaging it, and then pushes the casing further still into the breech face, hitting the firing pin, which reseats the primer, and cycles the slide.

That's my best guess of what happens when a short round is fired in a long chamber. I'm not crazy about any part of that process, especially the idea of using the firing pin to reseat the primer. I agree with The Shadow in that I would't trust that configuration either. I don't need to test it out for myself for the idea to violate my standard of common sense. Much like I don't need to bang my head against rocks to see if it hurts.

Have you fired .380ACP in a 9mm chambered pistol also? Serious question.

AJE
03-30-2010, 08:13
I have not tried 380 in a 9mm. The only reason I have tried .40S&W in a 10mm is because I generally understood it to be an acceptable practice until I got on the internet and read the doom & gloom associated with it. Come to find out most of these people had not tried it when asked.

I did some messing around with mine at the time I tried it. What happened if the round did not get hooked by the extractor, and was simply dropped into the chamber, was the extractor rested on the rim of the round, and the firing pin would not reach the primer.

I could do more testing with it later, but I mainly wanted to see if it worked or not. I fired 50 rounds and they all fed and functioned just fine. I did have the scrub the chamber pretty good to get a 10mm cartridge to chamber due to the build up resulting from the shorter cartridge being fired.

I will also say that this was done using a 6" KKM 45-10mm conversion barrel and Lone Wolf 6" slide, on a G21SF frame, this was not a stock Glock 20.

HOV
03-30-2010, 08:27
So the rounds didn't headspace on the case mouth, they just kind of floated in the chamber held in place by the extractor.

How did the brass look afterward?

BruceO
03-30-2010, 09:14
AJE:

You asked a question relative to real world experience vs internet rumor. Let me ask you a question.

Can you name a single autoloader manufacturer who who will validate on the record the use of ammo in a gun of their manufacture not chambered for it? Well, two questions. If it was safe, would they not note it as a selling point? The fact is that no matter how you spin it, the gun was designed for operation based on the case headspacing on the case mouth, not the extractor. Whether you can get the gun to fire with .40 S&W ammo is irrelevant. You can get all manner of rifle ammunition to fire in a mauser type controlled feed action. Does that make it OK to fire .308 in a .30-06 action? I think NOT.

http://thegunzone.com/10v40.html

:wow:

Disagreeing with the manufacturer regarding the merits of firing cast bullets thru polygonal rifling is one thing but this??


P.S. I personally disagree with the author regarding the Springfield Omega.

AJE
03-30-2010, 09:51
AJE:

You asked a question relative to real world experience vs internet rumor. Let me ask you a question.

Can you name a single autoloader manufacturer who who will validate on the record the use of ammo in a gun of their manufacture not chambered for it? Well, two questions. If it was safe, would they not note it as a selling point? The fact is that no matter how you spin it, the gun was designed for operation based on the case headspacing on the case mouth, not the extractor. Whether you can get the gun to fire with .40 S&W ammo is irrelevant. You can get all manner of rifle ammunition to fire in a mauser type controlled feed action. Does that make it OK to fire .308 in a .30-06 action? I think NOT.

:wow:

Disagreeing with the manufacturer regarding the merits of firing cast bullets thru polygonal rifling is one thing but this??

Most manufactuerers also warn against the use of reloaded ammo in their firearms.

I agree in what the firearm was designed for, and it is generally best to stick with the intended design, but your comparison to .308 and .30-06 is asinine.

HOV, I used aluminum cased Blazer, but I didn't notice anything abnormal with the fired cases.

BruceO
03-30-2010, 13:06
"but your comparison to .308 and .30-06 is asinine."

OK, lets see. Firing ammo in a firearm not chambered for it because it is the same bore diameter using the extractor to headspace (the extractor holds the round against the breechface, not the case shoulder) instead of of the correct datum point.

My comparison is asinine?

:rofl:

I prefer to indulge in some manner of linear thought progression. You however feel that you know more that the gun's designers and manufacturers BECAUSE you supposedly are a certified armorer and based on your vast experience(one box of ammo), feel that the experts are all in error and you are, of course, obviously correct. I submit that, based on the above, you have chosen a wise course of endeavor and will become even more proficient in, judging from the views you expound.

This particular discussion has been going on for just about as long as the .40 S&W has been in existence. I have YET to see one person who's opinion I trust recommend this practice, much less some off the wall, cowboy gunzine writer. Valid technical reasons have, however, been provided in a number of published articles detailing why this practice must be avoided. Still, there are those who pop out of the woodwork and loudly proclaim that there is no problem with this. No amount of empirical data will dissuade them based on the fact that their pistol fired and temporarily, at least, functioned with the mismatched ammo.

As Burger King used to proclaim: "Have it your way".

:dunno:

I prefer to do it as correctly as I can, especially with firearms.

Angry Fist
03-30-2010, 13:12
:popcorn:

AJE
03-30-2010, 19:01
If you refuse to acknowledge that the comparison between two pistol cartridges that have dimensionally similar cases, except for length, to two rifle cartridges that don't share much dimensionally, other than the base of the case and caliber of bullet, thanks to being necked cartridges, is asinine, then I don't feel I should even continue the discussion. :upeyes:

(Not to mention the smaller .308 cartridge operates at a higher max pressure than the 30-06, whereas just the opposite is true for .40/10mm.)

Once again, I'm not saying that you should go out and burn all your .40 through your 10mm, but if you needed to for some reason, that in my own experience with my gun, it has worked fine.

With the good weather we are supposed to have over the next couple days, I'm tempted to run a couple more boxes of .40 through just to say I did. :yawn:

I suppose when you get back to me one how many manufacturers recommend shooting reloads through their guns, I'll return to this discussion from my loading bench. I won't be holding my breath :wavey:

bac1023
03-30-2010, 20:19
3rd gen Smiths are great pistols.

BruceO
03-30-2010, 21:39
The maximum chamber pressure of the .308 is marginally higher than the .30-06-somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 to 4%. Big deal. And it is also bottlenecked. 2nd big deal. The fact remains that you're counting on the bullet to jump across an unsupported area in both instances without the advantage of a throat as in the case of a revolver, while being held against the breech face by the extractor for purposes of ignition.

So, anyway.................

AJE
03-31-2010, 06:22
I'm not even sure if you're being sarcastic or not. The bottle necks are totally different demensions, in angle and length, and the .30-06 case is tapered from the base to the neck, where the .308 isn't. The entire .40 S&W case is fully supported by the 10mm chamber walls, which is, again, why your argument is asinine.

HOV
03-31-2010, 06:45
IThe entire .40 S&W case is fully supported by the 10mm chamber walls, which is, again, why your argument is asinine.

Not true. It's a tapered cartridge designed to headspace on the case mouth. If you effectively move the whole cartridge back a little by headspacing on the extractor, you've moved any given area of the cartridge into a part of the chamber that wasn't designed to support it - the chamber will be relatively bigger than the case throughout the whole length.

That's why I asked about your brass. When the round expands after ignition, I figured the brass would be pretty well expanded beyond what is normal and expected for .40S&W. Even if the difference wasn't visible, I bet a pair of calipers would tell a different story.

AJE
03-31-2010, 07:47
Not true. It's a tapered cartridge designed to headspace on the case mouth. If you effectively move the whole cartridge back a little by headspacing on the extractor, you've moved any given area of the cartridge into a part of the chamber that wasn't designed to support it - the chamber will be relatively bigger than the case throughout the whole length.

That's why I asked about your brass. When the round expands after ignition, I figured the brass would be pretty well expanded beyond what is normal and expected for .40S&W. Even if the difference wasn't visible, I bet a pair of calipers would tell a different story.

You're right. The difference, at least what I could find, is 10mm tapers from .426 to .421 from base to neck and .40 tapers from .423 to .421.

I throw all of my aluminum cases in a bucket since they can't be realoaded so I don't have them to measure (I don't load 40 anyway)

FreeAmerican
03-31-2010, 08:42
You're right. The difference, at least what I could find, is 10mm tapers from .426 to .421 from base to neck and .40 tapers from .423 to .421.

I throw all of my aluminum cases in a bucket since they can't be reloaded so I don't have them to measure (I don't load 40 anyway)

Maybe I can help. I have a Smith 610 revolver in 10mm. Smith states you can shoot 40 S&W out of it with moon clips, and I have done this many times. The 610 however can shoot 10mm with or without clips as it also head spaces off the rim. The 40 bullet does make the jump without any problems and is as accurate as shooting 10mm.

The thing that might get you with a semi auto is will the extractor hold the round tight enough to get a solid hit on the primer.

HOV
03-31-2010, 08:49
^^ True, I suppose that is a pretty good analogy. So FreeAmerican - do you notice any difference in accuracy between the two rounds in your revolver? Also, sweeeet. I'm going to get a 610 as my next gun. You're welcome to sell me yours.

AJE, did you notice any difference in accuracy?

AJE
03-31-2010, 08:55
^^ True, I suppose that is a pretty good analogy. So FreeAmerican - do you notice any difference in accuracy between the two rounds in your revolver? Also, sweeeet. I'm going to get a 610 as my next gun. You're welcome to sell me yours.

AJE, did you notice any difference in accuracy?

No, but I was not shooting groups on paper, I was shooting my swinging steel plates.

FreeAmerican
03-31-2010, 09:22
The point of impact was different between the 10mm and 40 but it was just as accurate

Here is a pic to tempt you

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/610l.jpg

HOV
03-31-2010, 09:35
What was your decision criteria to choose the 4" barrel? I'm debating which I should go for.

FreeAmerican
03-31-2010, 12:34
The 10mm makes plenty o power from a 4 inch tube and I wanted it for woods carry. To me, the 4in is best of both worlds

PBRLite
03-31-2010, 13:23
The point of impact was different between the 10mm and 40 but it was just as accurate

Here is a pic to tempt you

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/610l.jpg

FreeAmerican,

thanks a lot. I have been saving my pennies and drooling over one of these for months. I also think that I will go with the 4" for the same reasons. You ever shoot any 220 gr. loads through yours? I recently doctored up some of these for my G20. They are a real head turner on the range.

FreeAmerican
03-31-2010, 13:57
I really have not loaded anything over 180gr. 180gr over a good load of Power Pistol will wake everyone up as well.

PBRLite
03-31-2010, 14:43
I really have not loaded anything over 180gr. 180gr over a good load of Power Pistol will wake everyone up as well.

True that. I originally wanted to get a wheelie in 10mm as my G20 with a LW barrel was giving me some feeding issues. I recently "broke" the chamber mouth with some 320 grit paper. I hope this fixes the issue.

But I'm still lusting over a 4" 610!

agtman
03-31-2010, 17:59
Well, don't forget that one of the MAJOR advantages of Smith's 610 10mm revolver is that the cylinder chambers allow you to long-load the cartridge beyond the 1.260 COAL restriction otherwise applicable to 10mm autoloaders, the original platform for the cartridge.

The 610 came along in early 1990 as a much derided afterthought, at least to some gun rag writers. :upeyes:

The long-loading advantage, of course, lies in being able to propel any of the heavier 10mm projectiles - 200gns, 220gns & 230gns - at greater velocity, with less pressure, and stll maintain reliability.

One alternative is to ship out the wheelie to someone like Hamilton Bowen and have the cylinder chambers reamed out to 10mm Magnum specs. Then you'd have a 3-cartridge revolver: the big Mag, 10mm AUTO & .40S&W.

But first I want to see if by long-loading it I can *almost* get there on the velocity/energy specs such that reaming the cylinder to 10mm Mag becomes only a marginal gain and not worth the extra cash outlay.

Lately I've been experimenting with a 1.400+ COAL using Hornady's 200gn XTP-HPs and AA #7 and #9, trying to come up with a good "distance" load. Haven't settled on anything yet.

6.5" S&W 610 (1st Gen "no-dash")
http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo166/agtman/610-6.jpg

:cool:

Retired Squid
04-03-2010, 18:11
Speaking of bottom feeders and wheel gunsin 10mm, 610-3 (6.5") 610 no dash 5" (S&W PC gun) and first Gen (1988) Colt Delta Elite.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x245/oldnavy6393/DSC00002.jpg

The 6.5" shoots anything and everything, but mostly hard cast lead and has about .006" B/C and average S&W accurate, the 5" has .003" B/C gap and with 2# glass rod break SA and 8# DA is best S&W I have ever shot and most accurate. The Colt is a Custom Shop gun with 6# trigger that also is the glass rod break, with the break so clean as to be almost scary with NO over travel and very, very accurate from rest. Never shot my 20 or 29 from a rest.

But alas the 610 & DE both probably have less then 50 rounds fired. I may remedy that this year who knows.

PS: I have a T/C G2 10" in 10mm coming to the fold in about 10 to 12 days.