weapons transition is the fastest reload (for an average guy anyway) idea?? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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mixflip
03-26-2010, 13:50
For the average Joe shooter (not some wiz bang pro exhibition shooter) it is pretty much accepted that a weapons transition is the fastest way to get back on target right?

Well I had an epiphany last night at around 2am.

Instead of mounting 5 or 6 extra shells on the butt-stock of a conventional shotgun stock, why not mount a serpa holster and some type of very small subcompact handgun there?

I think I am going to give this a try and do some field testing the next time I am out in the desert. Maybe I'll make a youtube video on this to see if it has some usefulness and if it is even practical?

What do you guys think???

MCPreacher
03-26-2010, 13:54
I think it would make it pretty unwieldy, not to mention a lot of extra bulk.

If you have your shotgun on a sling, then you would still have to hold the shotgun steady to allow you put pull your handgun from its (hopefully) secure holster. It still seems it would be faster to drop the shotgun on the sling and draw normally.

But you should totally do it and film it! Worth a shot, right?

inzone
03-26-2010, 14:54
I like your thinking mix.... I have been wondering myself about the efficacy of a quick switch off to another loaded weapon...my wife and I have a quick access safe to get our revolvers in the event of an emergency but then I have been wondering how to handle the shotguns, or whatever else .... it is a bit unwieldy to be holding a handgun and also a shotgun at the same time.... some kind of holster arrangement is what I have been contemplating....

bikerdog
03-26-2010, 15:36
you know you just might be on to something there. and if your ruing a single point sling and the pistols muzzle is pointing the same way as the muzzle on the gun, when you drop the gun you would be able to draw the pistol fairly fast. and hey if nothing else it would be cool to see:)

gunsnhoses
03-26-2010, 18:39
I'm interested. Let's see it.

GreyEclipse
03-26-2010, 18:45
For just about anybody and everybody a weapons transition should be faster.
That's why we have a secondary. But I don't know about mounting it on a shotgun.If the shotgun was taken away then the pistol would be to... :dunno:

hilljo
03-26-2010, 19:30
Try it. One of the few actually new/original ideas I've heard in a long time.

I think the actual "unholstering" part would be tough. If for example it was a tight holster, you might be yanking on the butt of that shotgun for a bit. Conversely, a real loose holster would be the opposite problem.

Like someone else said, probably too much bulk, but something new/different. It might lead to a different idea or variation that does work.

Aceman
03-26-2010, 20:10
This is not your epiphany. There is a classic intarwebs photo of an SG with a number of things duct taped to it - including a pocket pistol. And no - I don't think this will work.

Not saying it can't...just more trouble than tucking the other gun in the waistband.

mixflip
03-26-2010, 21:15
Try it. One of the few actually new/original ideas I've heard in a long time.

I think the actual "unholstering" part would be tough. If for example it was a tight holster, you might be yanking on the butt of that shotgun for a bit. Conversely, a real loose holster would be the opposite problem.

Like someone else said, probably too much bulk, but something new/different. It might lead to a different idea or variation that does work.

Well a serpa holster is a level II holster that locks so issues of it being too tight or too loose can be solved there. To unlock it only requires a touch of the index finger as you draw it, for those who arent familiar with it.

As for bulky? I have seen butt stock ammo pouches with velcro straps that look bulkier than a pocket pistol. Heck I think I could even put a pocket pistol inside one of those ammo pouches?

As for unwieldy? I have seen alot more things clamped and bolted onto shotguns like lights and lasers and side saddles and ammo slings and heat shields and forward pistol grips ect ect.

If I can find a cheap donor butt stock I will definately try and bolt on a serpa holster. I dont want to mess up my current stocks.

Lowrangerider
03-27-2010, 08:43
"Everybody knows you never go full retard!!!"

David Armstrong
03-27-2010, 10:53
What do you guys think???
Personally, I think there are decades of experience using the shotgun as a defensive and offensive weapon out there, and the over-riding issue for the average Joe is just learning how to use the shotgun. And I think there is a reason that after all those decades of experience a relatively few number of default posistions have developed over time. I notice that sticking an extra gun on the butt of the shotgun is not one of those default positions. I think there is a reason for that.

MCPreacher
03-27-2010, 11:46
I had another thought...

Do you never practice weak hand with your shotgun? How are you going to get a sight picture/cheek weld or even get it into position correctly with a pistol stuck to the stock?

What about mounting your extra gun on the receiver instead of the stock?

mixflip
03-27-2010, 12:06
Good point. Sadly alot of us dont practice support side like we should. I try to squeeze in some but it just not something the average guy practices but should thats for sure.

Now I am just guessing its no different than firing support side with a bunch of 00-buck shells in my face? This is something I could test out when I give it a field test?

As for dogmatic tactics being unchangeable? I am on the fence with it because firearms instructors do not teach the same techniques my grandfather was taught in WWII. Firearms techniques advance just like construction engineering and medical science and so on.

Tea cup grip, support hand in pocket ect ect were all the gold standard at one time. Techniques and tactics change with time and technology and a changing battle field. I am not saying I want to change, I am just saying I am open to knew ideas to ad to my tool box. It may not work for others and it may not work fork for me? I amnot trying to change the world. I am just curious about an idea thats all. If it doesnt work for me...I still have my tool box full of usefull stuff to use.

I remember when folks hated the idea of drop leg holsters because it went against the grain of hip holster teachings. Now everybody who wears a kit wears one. How else are you going to wear body armor or draw your gun from a seated position. (yeah I know - cross draw but that too isnt the classic hip holster position either which is my point)

aippi
03-27-2010, 17:08
Since you asked. Wrong headed for many reasons. First, as GreyEclipse pointed out should you lose the long gun, your back up went with it. Second, more junk and weight on the primary weapon to make it more difficult to deploy. Third, there is no benifit to it as most hand gun carry positions would be just as fast if bnot faster to deploy from.

Two weapons on one platform is not a new concept. There have been all kinds of ideas before. Remember the 870 that mounts under your AR-15. What a beast that was. We are talking about firearms that are going to be called upon when are lives are on the line and "keep them basic" is more important then coming up with gimicks.

mixflip
03-27-2010, 20:05
I agree hanging junk on long guns is always bad. I am on board with KISS "keep it simple stupid".

The mindset of this idea is for the guy who has his shotgun sitting in his room (prefferably in a locker or safe). Not an operator or cop or some kind of tactical ninja.

He hears a crash at his back window at 2am and grabs his shotgun and goes for a look. Now I know alot of folks often only grab the shotgun and forget to grab an additional handgun and mount it on his hip. Which is hard to do in pajamas anyway right? He also usually forgets to grab his cell phone to call 911 if he needs to.

This being said, grabbing a shotgun with a tiny, lightweight, single stacked PF9 attached to the shotguns butt stock seems like a nice grab and go package especially when most folsk forget to grab and holster a backup handgun anyway. Its already on it and your off!!!

Its an ugly fact of life that the average guy who grabs his shotgun at 2am often chooses not to or forgets to strap on a handgun along with the shotgun ...if the argument is that "if the shotgun gets taken away and you will loose your backup too?" then in this case (if you dont have a backup on your hip in the first place), it wouldnt matter because you dont have a handgun on your hip?

This is obviously a training issue. grab your shotgun AND your handgun!!!!

If you actually lost your long gun in a close quarters wrestling match for the gun, I think the second you loose full control of the shotgun...you will be running for cover and running for your handgun that you forgot or chose not to bring in the first place.

Also, say you are one of those hard core folks that actually do investigate a crash at the back door with your shotgun (I wish eveybody did this) and you take the time to strap on that side arm too then head out in the dark???

Whats wrong with having that little PF9 (or what ever you choose?) holstered on your shotgun if its no heavier or larger than say a 6 shot shell holder? In the time it would take to load "1" shot shell, you could unholster the little single stacked 9mm and have "8" 9mm +P JHPs rounds at the ready and on target.

Like I said, I am not trying to change the accepted gold standard. I am just not seeing a huge downside to the idea of a tiny single stacked 9mm in that spot on the butt stock vs 6 extra shells? We all know in a gun fight, time is life.

I am going to test this idea out so there is not just a knee jerk reaction to the idea. I'll run some dry fire drills in my house. Moving and drawing it and try to get a full real world feel for it. Like I said I will even try and make a video of my test if I get really into this idea?

As for the shotgun on the AR? I am not a fan of that idea btw. Also its not really something an average Joe would have as a resource for home defense. Thats a military idea.

Thanks for the input and ideas guys. I know appi and David Armstrong have lots of experience with shotguns and I respect these guys alot. So please dont take this idea as disrespectful to the established teachings. For the record, I am not pushing anybody to try this but me. If it works for me after testing..I will not be advocating any body to follow me. Solid and proven training techniques should always be followed and I advocate that 100%.

David Armstrong
03-28-2010, 12:45
As for dogmatic tactics being unchangeable? I am on the fence with it because firearms instructors do not teach the same techniques my grandfather was taught in WWII. Firearms techniques advance just like construction engineering and medical science and so on.
True, which is why one can look at current trends and techniques and get a pretty good idea of what has been found to work and what hasn't.
Now I am just guessing its no different than firing support side with a bunch of 00-buck shells in my face? This is something I could test out when I give it a field test?

Why would you want to fire with a bunch of 00Buck shells in your face, or a small handgun? That is one of the problems with hanging things on the stock, they reduce the versatility and capability of the gun rather than increase it.
I remember when folks hated the idea of drop leg holsters because it went against the grain of hip holster teachings. Now everybody who wears a kit wears one. How else are you going to wear body armor or draw your gun from a seated position.
Most folks still hate the idea of drop leg holsters. But that is a completely different issue. Under certain conditions, such as wearing combat vest and armor, there really isn't much of an alternative. We have experimented with keeping the handgun at the hip, attaching it to the vest, using a shoulder rig, etc. The drop leg holster becomes the default in certain situations not because it is a great way to carry a handgun, it becomes the default because it works better than the alternatives.

I feel compelled to ask, what formal tactical training with the shotgun have you had?

mixflip
03-28-2010, 17:02
I feel compelled to ask, what formal tactical training with the shotgun have you had?

I am nobody special. I am no expert at all. Just a guy who did some time with the Marines and some law enforcement and a gun enthusiasts in general. I dont really like to go on gun forums and tell folks all about myself. I am just a nobody who had an idea.

Like I said. I am not trying to tell anyone what to do. I just had a home defense idea based on the old question "whats the fastest reload" and the old answer "weapon transition" thats all.

If it isnt practical or safe I will tell my friends and who ever is interested to hear about how it works. If it doesnt work then of course I will have a huge amount of ground to stand on since I actually tested it.

Hey David, are you saying you dont advocate shell holders on butt stocks at all? I feel compelled to ask...can you post a pic of your ideal home defense shotgun setup and why its setup the way it is? I'd really like to see it (and copy it if it works for me too?) I am not talking a shotgun SWAT or SF use. Just a regular Joe's shotgun.

David Armstrong
03-28-2010, 17:43
I am nobody special. I am no expert at all. Just a guy who did some time with the Marines and some law enforcement and a gun enthusiasts in general. I dont really like to go on gun forums and tell folks all about myself. I am just a nobody who had an idea.
My point is that if you would take some time to get a good tactical shotgun class under your belt many of these questions/issues you bring up on this forum can be looked at from a better perspective, IMO.
Hey David, are you saying you dont advocate shell holders on butt stocks at all?
No, I don't. I prefer and recommend for most a fairly stock gun without all sorts of doo-dads stuck on it. If you absolutely must carry ammo on the shotgun the sidesaddle format seems the least objectionable to me. Don't have any pics, but my two fighting shotguns are:
Beretta 1201, 20", stock except for the addition of Ashley Express Sights.
Remington 870 Wingmaster, 18", stock with the original Scattergun Tech Basic Package (1-round mag extension, new furniture, parkerized, bead-on-base sight, sling attachment).
The 870 is pretty much what I would consider good for home defense for the Average Joe. Trim, light, reliable, does everything you need a HD shotgun to do. I like the option of putting on a sling (although I don't recommend it for home use) and I also recommend a shorter stock if appropriate. That's about it. Spend more money learning to shoot, less on doo-dads.

mixflip
03-28-2010, 20:35
Understood and I agree 100%. I do need more training. I plan on signing up for a fighting shotgun class in my neck of the woods. Suarez International has a shotgun course in L.A. Ca. in Oct 2010 (long time away bust closest to me vs Colorado) or a 2 Day Tactical Shotgun course at Front Sight in Nevada next month. I really dont want to fly, rent a car and hotel because I am short on extra cash as it is.

Its alot of cash especially during these tough economic times. My dept has "0" money to sponsor me so its all out of my own pocket and I dont make alot of money with furloughs and zero OT. As it stands I might just have a garage sale to finance some training? lol.

I'll make it happen and get the training some how.

FM12
03-29-2010, 18:40
Your guns, your idea, I say go for it. A pox on the naysayers.

dualG22s
03-29-2010, 21:38
what in gawds name of home defense are you going upagainst that you're attaching pistol to a shotgun? 4-5 rounds of 12 gauge and you going to transition to a pistol attached to the shottie?! Im no urban warrior or tacticalguy, but im willing to bet just loading 4 more rounds will be better, easier, and less retarded than mountinga holster and pistol to a shotgun......i mean the pistol will need a light and red dot and pistol bayonet as well right.!!!!!!!!

MrMurphy
03-30-2010, 11:34
Don't waste your money on Front Sight.

Spend it with Awerbuck at Yavapai, he KNOWS shotguns.

Mounting a pistol to a shotgun is dumb. The only reason most carry reloads on a shotgun is because shotguns aren't box mag fed, it's the only way to have some spares on board for the odd case when the initial four or seven don't do the trick.

For the record i tend to detest dropleg rigs, having worn one extensively, i'll use it if it's the only way, but a 6280 on a dropdown extender works just as well with armor (or mounted directly to the armor) than a 6004.

bfg1971
04-07-2010, 09:57
I think the thing that concerns me the most here is that it seems you are planning on running the SG empty. One of the advantages of the shotgun is ease of reloading while being still being able to fire. The Navy taught fire one load one. I'm not sure that this is the best method; however, the idea that every time you take cover you slip in a round seems feasable.

As to mounting a holstered handgun, why not try it and see how it works? Every invention we have today started out as an I wonder if this would work moment. I would think attching the holster to a sling might be the best option but who knows what will turn out best.

Good luck with your expirement, and remember to be safe.

mixflip
04-07-2010, 10:52
Thanks. Its just an idea I had in my had. I need to buy my PF9 first. (or other single stack 9mm pocket gun)

DaGroaner
04-07-2010, 11:34
This thread got me thinking. I've seen where people sell a mount to store a spare mag on the buttstock of M4s. Is that really convenient does it make the weapon more unwieldy? The reason I ask is that MY HD SG is a Saiga-12 and I have thought that I might like to mount a spare five round mag of slugs on the stock. But I don't really want to hassle the work required and to make (semi)permanent changes to a magazine if they're just a PIA in practice.

bfg1971
04-08-2010, 07:29
This thread got me thinking. I've seen where people sell a mount to store a spare mag on the buttstock of M4s. Is that really convenient does it make the weapon more unwieldy? The reason I ask is that MY HD SG is a Saiga-12 and I have thought that I might like to mount a spare five round mag of slugs on the stock. But I don't really want to hassle the work required and to make (semi)permanent changes to a magazine if they're just a PIA in practice.

Would it be possible to jury rig some sort of jungle clip so that the mag was attached to the other mag? That seems to be the standard solution with magazine feed weapons.

mixflip
04-08-2010, 10:17
I always thought it was "Jerry Rig"? But Jury does make more sense.

DaGroaner
04-09-2010, 08:51
Would it be possible to jury rig some sort of jungle clip so that the mag was attached to the other mag? That seems to be the standard solution with magazine feed weapons.

I tried that but unfortunately the recoil of the 12 GA tends to unload the other mag as you fire. I ended up with three shells on the ground after firing a 10 round mag.

Blitzer
04-09-2010, 09:12
Wire tie the BOB to the hand guard of the shotgun for a co-axial mount! :supergrin::whistling: