Q re: 12g Taser rounds [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Willard
03-29-2010, 10:41
Hi all,

This is a multi-part question, for follow me...

I'm sure that most of you have seen the cool Taser rounds that are fired from a 12 gauge SG. They look like a GREAT less-lethal round for HD. I have considered using less-lethal ammo for the first shot in my HD 870.

So, the questions are:

1) Does anyone else use a less-lethal 1st round? If not, why not? If so, what type do you use?

2) Are there reliability issues with less-lethal rounds?

3) _why_ are the Taser rounds for LE only? I don't understand why - what is the thought process behind making a less-lethal round LE only?

Thanks!

NWanner
03-29-2010, 11:05
A firearm can be considered a deadly weapon. Therefore if you have to deploy a firearm during a situation, you should have justifiable need to use deadly force. If you're going to have to justifiably use deadly force you might as well use lethal rounds.

Civillians are not LE and don't have the escalation of force rules that police do. Therefore there isn't a need for less-lethal rounds. If you want a less-lethan option then carry a can of OC for those pesky dogs.

Also, less-lethal rounds do not always work as they are intended to. This could either lead to killing a BG when you don't have justification for deadly force, or having the BG be unfazed by the round and kill you instead.

aippi
03-29-2010, 11:47
My first round in my HD shotgun is Sellier & Bellot rubber OO buck. Here is why?

1. I am not perfect and can make a mistake. If I fire when I should not have it will most likely be a one shot mistake and everyone will live it. It almost happened three years ago.

2. If I am jumped and my weapon taken, I know what that round is and if I can take the hit and the pain, I have a chance to live.

3. It works and may be the only round I need to fire

4. If I use it then have to use deadly force, it would be very difficult for some lawyer the dirt bags family hire to paint me as a killer to a jury when I first used less then lethal in an attempt to defend my home.

5. No worry about what is beyond the threat as it will not carry far and not go through walls.

6. If you have children think about this. A child would have a problem racking a round into a pump shotgun. If somehow the child did, it would be a one shot issue as it would be unlikely the child would discharge the weapon again. If the first round in your tube is Less then lethal, a life may be saved.

Note: During my career I was a Certifed Def-Tech Instructor and I certified many officers on using Specialty Impact munitions from both the 12 ga shotgun and the 37MM launcher. I took a hit from this stuff in Instructor school and I can testifiy to the effectiveness of it. Man can I testify!!! I also have the pictures of the deep brusing it left so should I have ever been called in to court because an officer I trained deployed it, I would have those pictures.

I know nother about any 12ga taser round so that must be after my day.

Willard
03-29-2010, 12:58
NWanner - I understand your point. First, I wouldn't fire a less-lethal round unless deadly force was justified.

JD - Your explanation parallels my thinking. In the event of a accidental discharge, a LL round is much less damaging. Plus, all the other thoughts you mentioned. I will probably employ the rubber 00 Buck.

But, _why_ is the Taser round "LE only"? Is this something specific to the Taser?

bikerdog
03-29-2010, 13:08
But, _why_ is the Taser round "LE only"? Is this something specific to the Taser?

I might be wrong but I think it's still in testing with only a few LE agencies. Also it will not shoot out of a normal 12 GA only ones with modified bolts.

NWanner
03-29-2010, 13:08
My first round in my HD shotgun is Sellier & Bellot rubber OO buck. Here is why?

1. I am not perfect and can make a mistake. If I fire when I should not have it will most likely be a one shot mistake and everyone will live it. It almost happened three years ago.


If you should not be firing you should not have a shotgun pointed at someone.

2. If I am jumped and my weapon taken, I know what that round is and if I can take the hit and the pain, I have a chance to live.

Most less-lethal rounds are VERY lethal at <10yds

3. It works and may be the only round I need to fire

Or it doesn't work and you get yourself killed by a BG with a gun/knife/etc. You may only get one round to fire before you are overtaken. Me personally I'd rather have that one round be one that can save my ass.

4. If I use it then have to use deadly force, it would be very difficult for some lawyer the dirt bags family hire to paint me as a killer to a jury when I first used less then lethal in an attempt to defend my home.

Deadly force is deadly force. If you manage to not kill them but permently disable them you have a better chance of losing in civil court than if they're dead. You shoot someone when you didn't have justification you'll still be charged with attempted murder/use of a deadly weapon/etc. as if it were a lethal round.

5. No worry about what is beyond the threat as it will not carry far and not go through walls.

You know for a fact that all less-lethal rounds won't penetrate walls? If it won't penetrate a wall what makes you think it can take out a BG wearing heavy clothing? Same arguement applies to using bird shot for HD.

6. If you have children think about this. A child would have a problem racking a round into a pump shotgun. If somehow the child did, it would be a one shot issue as it would be unlikely the child would discharge the weapon again. If the first round in your tube is Less then lethal, a life may be saved.

You have now just crossed into the realm of ridiculousness...

Note: During my career I was a Certifed Def-Tech Instructor and I certified many officers on using Specialty Impact munitions from both the 12 ga shotgun and the 37MM launcher. I took a hit from this stuff in Instructor school and I can testifiy to the effectiveness of it. Man can I testify!!! I also have the pictures of the deep brusing it left so should I have ever been called in to court because an officer I trained deployed it, I would have those pictures.

I know nother about any 12ga taser round so that must be after my day.

Once again, police have escalation of force rules that do not apply to civillians. The only time a civillian can deploy a firearm (generally, varies with state law) is when in fear of immenent bodily harm and deadly force is needed to protect themselves or others. LE use less-lethal rounds as tools when they don't feel that deadly force is neccessary, but they also have buddies next to them with lethal rounds incase they're needed.

NWanner
03-29-2010, 13:12
NWanner - I understand your point. First, I wouldn't fire a less-lethal round unless deadly force was justified.

JD - Your explanation parallels my thinking. In the event of a accidental discharge, a LL round is much less damaging. Plus, all the other thoughts you mentioned. I will probably employ the rubber 00 Buck.

But, _why_ is the Taser round "LE only"? Is this something specific to the Taser?

If deadly force is justified then use deadly force!! You reasoning for using less-lethal rounds in case of an accident by itself breeds complacentcy. Accidents with firearms are 100% preventable barring any mechanical defects, which are extremely rare.

ETA: There is also more than one thing to be said about KISS. Stick to OO Buck or Slugs and use your shotgun only if deadly force is justified. In a civil court they are never going to say, "well he could have used less-lethal rounds like the police do.", because you simply refute you are not LE. What they could do, though, is to bring the less lethal rounds into the arguement and throw everything and anything against the wall until something sticks. All of a sudden your good intentions are spun around and used against you.

GAFinch
03-29-2010, 17:21
You could go old school with some rock salt.

CAcop
03-29-2010, 21:33
Hi all,

This is a multi-part question, for follow me...

I'm sure that most of you have seen the cool Taser rounds that are fired from a 12 gauge SG. They look like a GREAT less-lethal round for HD. I have considered using less-lethal ammo for the first shot in my HD 870.

So, the questions are:

1) Does anyone else use a less-lethal 1st round? No. If not, why not? Less lethal rounds should be shot out of dedicated guns with lethal coverage from somebody else. I would not want to shoot the less lethal round then try for a second shot of less lethal only to end up with lethal. Or God forbid should you forget to load the LL into the gun and pop someone when you are NOT justified in killing them if needed. If so, what type do you use? When we used shotguns to deliver less lethal munitions we used the flat square rolled up types that sucked ass for accuracy beyond a few dozen yards. They would fly everywhere but where you aimed. Sock type rounds work the best. We currently use 40mm sponge rounds. Okay because they have a HUGE range of use and are REALLY accurate.

2) Are there reliability issues with less-lethal rounds? Out of pumps, none. Autos I hear there can be problems because they aren't moving too fast for a reason.

3) _why_ are the Taser rounds for LE only? One reason is cost. There was post not too long ago in Coptalk where someone pointed out the cost of training someone to shoot Taser shotgun rounds would be something like $400 minimum. That's per person if you didn't read that right or I didn't type it right. And that would have to be done at least once a year. Plus there is initial training involving classroom lecture. And probably additional updates. I don't understand why - what is the thought process behind making a less-lethal round LE only? We have 4 less lethal instructors at our department. Each one has been sent to a IIRC a one week class, could be two. Granted it covers all less lethal devices ad chemical agents. Even if they were to train you on the very specific round that you wanted to use it would take at least 4 hours of classroom time and at least 3 rounds downrange for qualification. They may even want scenario training so that you know what to do after hitting the guy with LL. IT is very expensive for us to do it for our people and we have economy of scale on our side. That is we have one instructor teaching a couple dozen students. The per student cost is VERY low.
Thanks!

LL munitons are a waste of time for anything other than a team of people using it to arrest a particular person when the are resistive but not presenting a deadly force threat. There is no need for LL in a non on duty law enforcement situation. I have access to our old LL shotgun rounds. I could use them at home. There is no way in hell I am going to use them on my own time. 1) I do not have the proper training for them. 2) I have not qualified to use them. 3) I do not have a team to properly use them with me on my own time. 4) If someone needs to be shot in my home they will be shot because they pose an immediate threat to my safety of the safety of others.

aippi
03-29-2010, 22:07
Wanner I suspect by your response you have never been in a sitution that called for you to make a fast decision to pull a trigger. If you have not then until you have, you will simply not understand my posting. The main reason that munition is there is incase I make a mistake. Deciding to pull that trigger is the most stressful thing you will ever have to do. I have been there several times and I hope that for the years I have remaining on this old earth, that I am never there again, however, I still train for it, I still expect it and I am ready for it. I pray I don't make a mistake.

What you are missing about this is that these munitions give us another tool. A man confident in his ability with his weapon will take advantage of this. I can fire that Less then Lethal round and follow it up with lead faster then you can even think the thought. I am at no disadvantage using this munition as my first round. I am safer having in my weapon, my family is safer and my nieghbors are safer.

I will end responding to this post as every time it comes up there are guys have to contest the reasons I give and some even go down the list. It serves nothing to go back and forth. Each man reading this will decide if this is right for him or not. I will not tell him it is right for him, only that it is right for me.

CAcop
03-29-2010, 22:26
Just so you guys all know LL rounds don't always work like you'd want them to. We have had guys run away after getting popped good. Some just stand there taking the hits. That's why when we deploy them we have someone with lethal coverage nearby. The dude could even shoot at you before you fire your less lethal. Then you have to get through the LL to get to the lethal stuff.

If you really have a hard time pulling the trigger you might want to rethink the whole gun as protection thing.

blaster_54738
03-29-2010, 22:42
I might be wrong but I think it's still in testing with only a few LE agencies. Also it will not shoot out of a normal 12 GA only ones with modified bolts.

i'm pretty sure they fire out of any standard 12 ga. but one other thing that is stopping a lot of agencies is the price tag which last i heard was around $100 a round.

mixflip
03-30-2010, 01:25
I have seen the bolt for the 12 gauge Taser. It will only shoot the taser round. Now if there are 2 options out there? That I do not know?

blaster_54738
03-30-2010, 02:12
I have seen the bolt for the 12 gauge Taser. It will only shoot the taser round. Now if there are 2 options out there? That I do not know?

two different rounds, if you look at the brochure on tasers website they offer the xrep-rl for the taser mossberg sg and the xrep-fl for any standard pump action.

NWanner
03-30-2010, 12:17
Wanner I suspect by your response you have never been in a sitution that called for you to make a fast decision to pull a trigger. If you have not then until you have, you will simply not understand my posting. The main reason that munition is there is incase I make a mistake. Deciding to pull that trigger is the most stressful thing you will ever have to do. I have been there several times and I hope that for the years I have remaining on this old earth, that I am never there again, however, I still train for it, I still expect it and I am ready for it. I pray I don't make a mistake.

What you are missing about this is that these munitions give us another tool. A man confident in his ability with his weapon will take advantage of this. I can fire that Less then Lethal round and follow it up with lead faster then you can even think the thought. I am at no disadvantage using this munition as my first round. I am safer having in my weapon, my family is safer and my nieghbors are safer.

I will end responding to this post as every time it comes up there are guys have to contest the reasons I give and some even go down the list. It serves nothing to go back and forth. Each man reading this will decide if this is right for him or not. I will not tell him it is right for him, only that it is right for me.

If you have "been there" "several times", then you either need to move to a better area, learn to avoid trouble better, or learn when deadly force is actually needed. That's all I'm going to say on that because those comments are borderline rediculous for reasons I shouldn't even have to point out.

You're not any safer with a less-lethal round than you are with a real round. You are using it as a 'feel good' tactic that is on par with what the anti's routinely do and your 'feel good' measure could end up getting you or someone else hurt. Do what you want though, because you seem stuck with your intentions...

NWanner
03-30-2010, 12:19
Just so you guys all know LL rounds don't always work like you'd want them to. We have had guys run away after getting popped good. Some just stand there taking the hits. That's why when we deploy them we have someone with lethal coverage nearby. The dude could even shoot at you before you fire your less lethal. Then you have to get through the LL to get to the lethal stuff.

If you really have a hard time pulling the trigger you might want to rethink the whole gun as protection thing.

Don't waste your breath bro, these guys obviously won't listen to reason. I'm just glad that someone in LE agrees with what I have said. Too bad even that doesn't seem to be enough to change their minds...

DaGroaner
03-31-2010, 21:34
You could go old school with some rock salt.

Yeah and you could split your earnings with the guy you blinded for the rest of your working life. I'll go with pepper spray.

Which reminds me, aren't there 12 GA powdered pepper rounds?

GreyEclipse
04-01-2010, 02:27
No, it seems like a disadvantage to me...

Shoot a BG with rubber and he shoots back with lead...
Ah, yeah. I'll go with 00Buck or #1 but that's just me.:whistling:

David Armstrong
04-01-2010, 11:58
If deadly force is justified then use deadly force!! You reasoning for using less-lethal rounds in case of an accident by itself breeds complacentcy. Accidents with firearms are 100% preventable barring any mechanical defects, which are extremely rare.

Without getting into the underlying issue, comments like this are rather silly. That is like saying "Accidents with automobiles are 100% preventable barring any mechanical defects." All accidents, by definition, are preventable. That ignores the reality that accidents can, do, and will happen, even among highly trained individuals. Recognizing that and putting an extra "safety layer" into the mix can be quite appropriate, depending on the situation and the individual.

aippi
04-01-2010, 14:43
I normally don't continue to reply, however, the incidents I refered to "for when I had to make quick decision to use a weapon" were in the line of duty, except one. To tell me to move to a better area and to learn avoid trouble better is rediculous and simply shows the different perspective of the men on these forums who have carried weapons in the line of duty and those who have them not. I am now retired and have made a reasonable choice to use this as my first HD load. You can state your view on the subject and the readers can decide if it is right for them. And be assured, many will as they see the logic behind this. Others will not and that is their decision, they are not wrong any more then I am right.

cyrsequipment
04-01-2010, 15:28
If you "accidentally" pull the trigger on a bad guy with a "less lethal" round and he was within a few feet, you'll likely have the same end result as if you had used a lethal round...

I've been in a position of taking up trigger slack several times in the line of duty (luckily never pulled it all the way), but I have always been in complete control of what was going on, I can't imagine making a "mistake" and I really can't imagine planning on making a mistake. Don't use less lethal rounds. As CACop said, Less Lethal is only for use when you have ample lethal coverage.

No way would I consider it for personal defense... and as a Firearms Instructor, I wouldn't allow someone who plans on making mistakes to qualify...

GenoTac Ind.
04-01-2010, 18:48
Willard, they are LE only because of the liability that is associated with Less than Lethal rounds, especially the Taser (Xrep) round. Taser can be sued if the round "malfunctions" and kills or injures the person or works in anyway than it is designed to, both you(civilly) and Taser can be sued. Now as a civilian do you have the LIABILITY coverage to go through a couple of years of courts and lawyers to fend of suits from people you have used this round on?

Not only do you need money for liability but you need money to be educated and equipped for that specific tool. Training maybe cost $500 every class, every year, yes every year as you have to have "in-service" training every year to lessen the liabilty on you by showing that you do know how to use the equipment and have kept up with up to date training on the subject matter. You would also have to purchase the Taser X12 Shotgun, call Taser and ask how much that cost, as the Xrep (Taser round) will only work in that gun. And last but not least you have to buy Xrep rounds, last I heard $700 a pop...

These are the reasons why civilians can't afford the round. Why Taser will not sell to individual civilians? LIABILITY, you are going to be using their product right?

CAcop
04-01-2010, 22:23
Yeah and you could split your earnings with the guy you blinded for the rest of your working life. I'll go with pepper spray.

Which reminds me, aren't there 12 GA powdered pepper rounds?

The only ones I know about go through doors and walls to get people to come out without resorting to CS or CN and the problems that go with it.

I know there is 37mm blast dispersion CS and CN but I have not heard about blast dispersion OC in 12 or 37.

NWanner
04-01-2010, 22:29
Without getting into the underlying issue, comments like this are rather silly. That is like saying "Accidents with automobiles are 100% preeventable barring any mechanical defects." All accidents, by definition, are preventable. That ignores the reality that accidents can, do, and will happen, even among highly trained individuals. Recognizing that and putting an extra "safety layer" into the mix can be quite appropriate, depending on the situation and the individual.

Okay, then replace 'accidents' with 'neglicent incidents'. Are you seriously advocating using less-lethal rounds as an "extra safety layer"?!

GenoTac Ind.
04-01-2010, 22:33
Just switch the pepperball launcher to auto...not blast dispersion just fogging. Works though.

greenlead
04-02-2010, 00:46
Local policy is that officers are only to use less lethal rounds when another officer is present with lethal. Less lethal is only useful under tightly controlled circumstances, not as a shot in the dark.

David Armstrong
04-02-2010, 08:58
Okay, then replace 'accidents' with 'neglicent incidents'. Are you seriously advocating using less-lethal rounds as an "extra safety layer"?!
Negligent incidents work out the same as accidents in the equation. It is all well and good to talk about how they can be prevented, but reality is that they are not all prevented, and basing an argument on the idea that they can or will be is just foolish, as people are not perfect. As for advocating something, I advocate each person should recognize what works best for them in their particular situation. If they feel they need an additional layer of safety and a less lethal round addresses that need, great. If someone else in their situation does not feel that need, great.