Knife Takeaway Training [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Stepaway
03-30-2010, 18:50
I see a lot of material - books, DVDs, classes - on taking a knife away from an assailant. For those of you who have been attacked - does that stuff actually work or will it just get me hurt. I've always assumed that the only way to take away a knife is with a gun. Tell me!

Gallium
03-30-2010, 19:21
I see a lot of material - books, DVDs, classes - on taking a knife away from an assailant. For those of you who have been attacked - does that stuff actually work or will it just get me hurt. I've always assumed that the only way to take away a knife is with a gun. Tell me!



You would need some serious edged weapons training to do this.

It's far easier to simply DISARM someone with a knife than it is to "take it away". Disarming drills can be taught, or learned over a matter of a few days of intensive training.

'Drew

MTPD
03-31-2010, 06:52
An assailant armed with a knife should be shot first, then disarmed.

One of the cops I worked with went hand to hand with a felon armed with a very small pocket knife. The cop's chest looked like a well used cutting board afterwards........and was scarred forever! And he was a BIG cop, a lot bigger than the BG.

Taking knives away H2H is for the movies, not the street.

Stepaway
03-31-2010, 08:16
Since I have no experience or training in unarmed combat it sounds like thats a project that will have to wait behind my handgun training. However, I have picked up a hardwood cane.

Here's a followup question - assuming equal size and skill - who wins that battle, a man with a cane or a man with a knife?

Gallium
03-31-2010, 08:33
...

Here's a followup question - assuming equal size and skill - who wins that battle, a man with a cane or a man with a knife?

Real life does not work like that.

Who attacked 1st? What is the mindset of either? Who has more to lose? Who is more dedicated on winning?

Have you ever seen ANY (boxing, kickboxing, wrestling) where someone with lesser skill or size kicked the other's ass? Sometimes timing, circumstances and luck also come into play.



The question you ask is one almost EVERYONE with little or no experience asks - they are trying to find that magic talisman or shortcut. Real life does not work like this, where there are clear cut advantages we can look at in a sterile environment.

Would you prefer to have a knife, or a cane if you and your adversary are completely submerged in water? :)

Too many variables.

'Drew

Stepaway
03-31-2010, 09:04
Thank you for your comments, I understand what you're saying. I guess what I'm really asking is this - If someone comes after me with a knife should I even attempt to disarm them or just draw my gun? Of course, I don't want to shoot anyone but I also don't want to be a dead guy with a glock in my holster.

Currahee
03-31-2010, 09:28
Stepaway - if you feel someone is putting your life in danger and that you can protect yourself by use of your firearm, then do so. It doesn't matter if your attacker is using a knife, bat or gun. You have no legal or moral obligation to disarm an attacker.

Based on your questions I highly recommend that you attend a good training class before you concealed carry. Where do you live? We can recommend a good school.

Stepaway
03-31-2010, 09:45
I'm in Houston, thx for the help.

Currahee
03-31-2010, 10:08
Here is a list of Texas training I've found. I think 360 Tactical is near you. I would post a new question in "Tactics and Training" to see if anyone has any personal experience with any of these schools.

http://www.krtraining.com/
http://www.learn2shoot.net/
http://www.360tacticaltraining.com/Home.html
http://www.northtexastactical.com/
http://bluffdalefirearmsacademy.com/default.aspx
http://www.tdsa.net/
http://www.tacproshootingcenter.com/
http://www.tigervalley.com/
http://www.glcshootingacademy.com/

CRUEL HAND LUKE
03-31-2010, 10:10
It largely depends on how far away they are when you figure out the attack is imminent.

Problem is that most knife attackers in REAL life will not show the knife until they are VERY close to you. They will typically try to close the distance and get a hold of you as they deploy the knife. No one is going to do an impersonation of the "Cairo Swordsman" from Raiders of the Lost Ark before they attack you. Many victims of knife attacks think they are getting punched at first.....

If they are stupid enough to show you the knife at distance then SHOOT them. Problem is that is rare for them to show it early....


Try this exercise. Have a friend stand 2 arms reach away. He will be armed with a training knife, a dull butter knife or even an ink pen with a cap on it. You are armed with a blue gun or an empty airsoft gun with no bbs in it carried concealed just like you do for real on the street.

He will start the attack by lunging at you and trying to stab you as many times as he can. You will counter by drawing and "firing".

How many times did you get stabbed? Were you able to get your gun out? Did he foul your draw? Did he disarm YOU? Did you get stabbed multiple times in vital places?

Generally speaking if the attack starts within 2 yards you will have a tough time trying to just draw and shoot. You will need some type of empty hand skills to mitigate the attack and create either control over your opponent or create distance to draw your weapon.

Some sources for anti knife material is the AMOK knife system (edgedweaponsolutions.com). Their "Accessing While Under Attack" class spend the whole class defending empty hand against knife attacks starting out empty handed until you can make space to access your weapon. EVERYONE should experience this.

Other good sources are the Red Zone knife defense program and the STAB program. A good DVD set is Lee Morrison's "On the Sharp Edge".

There is a big wide world of information out there that never gets taught in typical "gun schools" or written about in gun magazines. The truth is out there........:supergrin:

Stepaway
03-31-2010, 10:46
Thanks a lot guys, thats why Glock Talk is impressive - so many guys with so much experience willing to help. Who knows you prob just saved my ***.

Gallium
03-31-2010, 12:01
Thanks a lot guys, thats why Glock Talk is impressive - so many guys with so much experience willing to help. Who knows you prob just saved my ***.

Well then thank Curahee and Luke, because while I've seen a lot of stuff 2nd hand, I can't say I have any experience with anything whatsoever. ;)

'Drew

Currahee
03-31-2010, 12:19
Well then thank Curahee and Luke, because while I've seen a lot of stuff 2nd hand, I can't say I have any experience with anything whatsoever. ;)

'Drew

***Disclaimer***
I don't have any experience with being attacked with a knife outside of a training environment. RPGs yes, knives no. :tongueout:

Stepaway - I take Krav Maga classes and there is a fair amount of time spent on defense against knives. It is not integrated with carrying with a handgun but still very useful. I know there is a school in Houston, you might want to check that out. I've really enjoyed the classes as well as learned a lot.

Esox357
03-31-2010, 18:27
There has been more than one incident where a guy with the knife kills the guy with a gun! You don't take away a knife and even disarming can be tricky depending on how skilled the individual is? Distance and awareness are you friends. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot someone with a knife! Esox357.

Gallium
03-31-2010, 19:00
There has been more than one incident where a guy with the knife kills the guy with a gun! You don't take away a knife and even disarming can be tricky depending on how skilled the individual is? Distance and awareness are you friends. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot someone with a knife! Esox357.


To the OPs credit, I think he meant "knife takeaways" where all you have is ...nothing, and you disarm a knife wielder. What do you do if you have no gun? Create distance? Use diversion? What if you get cornered? What do you do then?

'Drew

ElectricZombie
03-31-2010, 19:56
I've disarmed one person with a knife, and honestly, I probably got lucky as this was many years ago and I didn't have any training.

I've since practiced a bit, and it's hard to do even against a rubber knife.

Deaf Smith
03-31-2010, 21:00
An assailant armed with a knife should be shot first, then disarmed.

Actually, that is plan A. But that plan can go to heck if the knife welder does not wait for you to draw a gun.

Besides my TKD, I also train in Krav Maga. About 30 years in TKD and one year so far in KM.

KM does have some good realistic knife disarming IF the attacker is using a committed attack. If the knife welder is using an uncommitted attack, well watch out cause it's very hard to predict and stop such attacks.

What is more a lot of knife attacks are stabbings. A stabbing is different cause they tend to hide the weapon until they are close… to close, and stab you without warning. There is no real defense against that just as there is no real defense from being backshot.

But for an assailant that telegraphs his intentions, there are so good knife defense methods. If you can't take a KM class, get the book "How to Defend Yourself Against Armed Assault" byt Imi Sde-Or Lichtenfeld and Eyal Yanilov. That and get a buddy to practice with.

Deaf

rvrctyrngr
04-02-2010, 12:17
You would need some serious edged weapons training to do this.

It's far easier to simply DISARM someone with a knife than it is to "take it away". Disarming drills can be taught, or learned over a matter of a few days of intensive training.

'Drew

Very true, 'Drew. Very true.

Effective disarms can be taught in a relatively short period of time. I know a few instructors who do it, and do it very well.

However, developing the SA and mindset to survive long enough to deploy those skills is another matter, entirely.

Cody Jarrett
04-02-2010, 12:58
NYCDREW is correct. The objective is to disarm and neutralize the threat, not take away the knife. Of course retreat would be the best thing to do if you can do so safely but if forced to fight conisdeer looking into various knife defense classes. I espeically liked a class I took at Modern Warrior on using straps and belts as improvised weapons. Here's some clips from the class --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwNPnRSIBEI&feature=PlayList&p=03AF60B250AD017E&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=41. Some nice knife defense work at the end of the clip.

Even with proper training, this is still a very hard thing to do without getting hurt.

Jay S.
04-02-2010, 20:41
I got robbed at knife point by a few guys while in the Navy in the Philippines. There were about eight guys there and a few of them wanted my money. I pulled a handful of pesos from my pocket and threw them as hard as I possibly could at the guys face who was closest to me (the one with the knife). I then ran fast enough to make Usain Bolt jealous. I never once even considered trying to disarm him and made creating distance my #1 priority. There may be a situation where that is your only option but it would be a last resort for me. I am not any kind of instructor or claim to be an expert at anything - this has just been my experience and is my .02 cents worth.:wavey:

Gallium
04-02-2010, 21:22
NYCDREW is correct. The objective is to disarm and neutralize the threat, not take away the knife. Of course retreat would be the best thing to do if you can do so safely but if forced to fight conisdeer looking into various knife defense classes. I espeically liked a class I took at Modern Warrior on using straps and belts as improvised weapons. Here's some clips from the class --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwNPnRSIBEI&feature=PlayList&p=03AF60B250AD017E&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=41. Some nice knife defense work at the end of the clip.

Even with proper training, this is still a very hard thing to do without getting hurt.


This is really spooky. :) I was wrapping up a "practical shooting" class this evening, and the topic of a knife weilder came up. (some whacko in NYC stabbed and kilt two other guys). I told the folks (as I was pressed for a suggestion) that if there was no avenue for retreat, and no means of keeping the assailant outside of lunging distance, that a simple defense would be to remove and use one's belt.

:cool:

'Drew

Stepaway
04-03-2010, 04:48
NYCDREW is correct. The objective is to disarm and neutralize the threat, not take away the knife. Of course retreat would be the best thing to do if you can do so safely but if forced to fight conisdeer looking into various knife defense classes. I espeically liked a class I took at Modern Warrior on using straps and belts as improvised weapons. Here's some clips from the class --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwNPnRSIBEI&feature=PlayList&p=03AF60B250AD017E&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=41. Some nice knife defense work at the end of the clip.

Even with proper training, this is still a very hard thing to do without getting hurt.

Certainly looks more promising than most of the pseudo martial arts techniques that I have seen. Following Drew's suggestion of the belt, what would be the preferred method of creating enough "space" to get your belt off - a front kick? Or maybe more realistic is Jay S. suggestion to drop/throw money as a momentary distraction.

Gallium
04-03-2010, 07:31
Certainly looks more promising than most of the pseudo martial arts techniques that I have seen. Following Drew's suggestion of the belt, what would be the preferred method of creating enough "space" to get your belt off - a front kick? Or maybe more realistic is Jay S. suggestion to drop/throw money as a momentary distraction.


Hello Stepaway,

I've been stabbed twice (bad). Once in the right thigh, and once in the left shoulder, parring/deflecting a swing to my upper left chest area. I've also suffered a superficial piercing to my abdominal area.

(those of the joys of being raised in a 3rd world country).

In the instance I was stabbed in my thigh, I was jumped by 4 guys at a high school barbecue. I was still in my early teens. I was able to stab two of those miscreants and they broke the attack off.

For a scenario where I suggested using a belt, we are way past using a throw down wallet/etc. Using your belt would be in a case for example, where there was an attack on the NYC subways last week, one guy chopped up three other guys, two dead. In that scenario, you do what you can, with what you have.

'Drew

Stepaway
04-03-2010, 07:47
Jeez 'Drew, glad you are still with us. Can you elaborate a bit on the attack by the 4 guys. Our problem in Houston is a huge increase in gang activity and thats my primary concern. Were there any tipoffs that the attack was coming and what was your initial reaction to getting stabbed (any delay in drawing your own knife). Thx, don't mean to dwell on negative memories but this is exactly on point for my training.

Gallium
04-03-2010, 08:22
Jeez 'Drew, glad you are still with us. Can you elaborate a bit on the attack by the 4 guys. Our problem in Houston is a huge increase in gang activity and thats my primary concern. Were there any tipoffs that the attack was coming and what was your initial reaction to getting stabbed (any delay in drawing your own knife). Thx, don't mean to dwell on negative memories but this is exactly on point for my training.

It was too long ago, and too far away to have any real relevance to the conversation today. I was...14? This was in the early 80s. The four guys were your typical local homeless street urchins. They were in the school event (held a typical outdoor entertainment center) begging and harassing. They took my food and boxed it up in my face and then jumped me. I was fortunate to have a 4-5" knife on my person (everyone carried a knife in Jamaica, or an icepick). It was just a bunch of guys falling to the ground in a flurry of fists and feet.

'Drew

ChuteTheMall
04-03-2010, 08:36
Thank you for your comments, I understand what you're saying. I guess what I'm really asking is this - If someone comes after me with a knife should I even attempt to disarm them or just draw my gun? Of course, I don't want to shoot anyone but I also don't want to be a dead guy with a glock in my holster.

What would be safest for you?

I'd guess to draw AND SHOOT the knife wielding attacker to the ground would be the safest way to escape from death or serious injury. Don't forget to escape.

Merely running away could lead to a knife in your back, depending on your abilities vs his.

If you have no options (attacked on a nude beach or in a sauna) remember it's easier to bend or break his wrist than his elbow or shoulder.

Hedo1
04-05-2010, 07:39
At very close CQB distances you are better off deflecting or controlling the blade before trying to draw your weapon and fire.

My edged weapons instructor always said a man with a knife, up close, doesn't have to be good with it, just committed.

rockabillyrider
04-05-2010, 07:48
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWTNBRs7Ccs

Stepaway
04-05-2010, 15:32
Classic !

Deaf Smith
04-05-2010, 16:50
Now that is the way they kick in Krav Maga! And to the same spot!

Deaf

LittleRedToyota
04-06-2010, 15:30
i would humbly suggest that whatever one's plan is, one try it out with airsoft/simunitions and realistic training knives (not those foot long things) before having to attempt it in real life.

one might find out that "i'll just shoot him" doesn't work out so well unless the guy is just *threatening* (rather than *attacking*) with the knife--and from a distance (rather than at bad breath range).

deflecting the attack, creating space, and *then* bringing the gun into the fight might be the best option...depending, of course, on circumstances.

in any case, though, a knife up close is a very bad thing to have to deal with.