357 mag Vs 357 sig [Archive] - Glock Talk

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GoonGlock21
03-31-2010, 17:52
Im up in the air on getting a g32 or a new 357 rev. what are yalls opinons on the two 357 rounds? how do the ballistics match up? etc.

SgtSam
03-31-2010, 18:09
Apples to Oranges, really. The only place that the two come close ballistically, is with the 125gr load that the SIG is known for. Outside of that, I think the .357 Mag is ballistically superior, and a hell of lot more versatile. Plus, with the .357 Mag, you can shoot .38 Spl.

And then you have the platform. Pistol vs revolver. They really aren't comparable. Pro's and Con's to both. Lot's of them.

I know a lot of people disagree, but I can't help but feel that the .357 Sig, for MOST of us, answers a question that was never asked, let alone even thought of. Yeah, I know, it's found a home with a number of LE departments. But, they don't need versatility as they have one mission and one purpose in a handgun. Most of us need the versatility.

But, good luck on your search for an answer. I hope however you work it out, you're happy with the decision over the long haul.

SgtSam

fredj338
03-31-2010, 18:11
Im up in the air on getting a g32 or a new 357 rev. what are yalls opinons on the two 357 rounds? how do the ballistics match up? etc.

Using a 4" 357mag vs 3.5"-4" 357sig & 125gr JHP, pretty close. In a 357mag snub, the 357sig wins hands down. The 357sig gives you an easier gun to conceal & shoot plus more rounds. I love the 357mag, but I am really liking the 357sig for CCW. Some comparisonsin size, M66, P239 & M19.Smolt, 6rds vs 8rds in a smaller pkg:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/357mags.jpg

Glolt20-91
03-31-2010, 18:22
Old tech Remington 125gr SJHP that doesn't plug up can be bought at Walmart. Chronograph from 4" barrel is 1465fps and 1610fps from a 6".

If you choose to handload, cost of .357mag brass is about the same as 9mm +P brass; both significantly lower in cost than the SIG when ordered directly from Starline.

The .357mag is far more versatile in bullet/ammo selection than its SIG cousin.

Add the additional cost of magazines plus several hundred rounds of you carry ammo, reliability testing, and the price of a S&W M686 becomes very competitive.

My 686 plus came with adjustable sights, drilled and tapped for optics, target trigger and hammer; first shot accuracy out to 160 yards from multiple shooters.

Bob :cowboy:

N/Apower
03-31-2010, 19:18
Apples to Oranges, really. The only place that the two come close ballistically, is with the 125gr load that the SIG is known for. Outside of that, I think the .357 Mag is ballistically superior, and a hell of lot more versatile. Plus, with the .357 Mag, you can shoot .38 Spl.

For self-defense, one would probably go with a 125gr load in both chaberings. Also, .38 Special costs the same as 357SIG, and 357 Magnum is significantly more, so price-wise, the 357SIG wins. Further, the G32 is going to carry 2x as many rounds as a comparably sized revolver, or any revolver, pretty much.

And then you have the platform. Pistol vs revolver. They really aren't comparable. Pro's and Con's to both. Lot's of them.

Agree

I know a lot of people disagree, but I can't help but feel that the .357 Sig, for MOST of us, answers a question that was never asked, let alone even thought of. Yeah, I know, it's found a home with a number of LE departments. But, they don't need versatility as they have one mission and one purpose in a handgun. Most of us need the versatility.

Any caliber but the 9mm and .45ACP could be argued as an answer to a question noone asked.

But, good luck on your search for an answer. I hope however you work it out, you're happy with the decision over the long haul.

SgtSam

Having shot 357SIG, and 357Magnum, from a 6" barrel, the 357 Magnum is going to shine. Anything less than a 6" barrel, go with the 357SIG. Unless you are hunting with it, and need to use 180gr Cast bullets or something--but then, why would you hunt something with a 4" revolver?

The auto-pistol offers less muzzle-flip. Higher capacity.
The Revolver offers more velocity in longer barrel-lengths, and the ability to shoot 180gr ammo.

N/Apower
03-31-2010, 19:20
Old tech Remington 125gr SJHP that doesn't plug up can be bought at Walmart. Chronograph from 4" barrel is 1465fps and 1610fps from a 6".

If you choose to handload, cost of .357mag brass is about the same as 9mm +P brass; both significantly lower in cost than the SIG when ordered directly from Starline.

The .357mag is far more versatile in bullet/ammo selection than its SIG cousin.

Add the additional cost of magazines plus several hundred rounds of you carry ammo, reliability testing, and the price of a S&W M686 becomes very competitive.

My 686 plus came with adjustable sights, drilled and tapped for optics, target trigger and hammer; first shot accuracy out to 160 yards from multiple shooters.

Bob :cowboy:

I have seen chronograph numbers from 125gr Rem SJHP running mid 1300's for a 4" barrel as well. Barrel/cylinder gap is going to play a role here, as well. For the most part, I would say that the two rounds are about equal from a 4" barrel. But then, most autos are 3.8" or 4.4", or so.

unit1069
03-31-2010, 19:51
I know a lot of people disagree, but I can't help but feel that the .357 Sig, for MOST of us, answers a question that was never asked, let alone even thought of.

The .357sig has answered my question, "Where do I find the equivalent of the 125-grain Magnum round but in a configuration that gives me more than double the capacity of a revolver while cutting the total weight of the firearm"?

I can understand why many LEO are switching to .357sig.

MinervaDoe
03-31-2010, 20:20
:popcorn::dancing:
I've got two .357 magnums and I'm really enjoying learning about the .357 sig. In that self defense niche which is topped by the 125 grain .357 magnum, the .357 sig looks like a really solid performer (in a high capacity auto pistol package). I'll probably start out with a .357 sig barrel in my Glock 20.

fsqridah
03-31-2010, 21:13
For SD, definitely the .357 SIG. For hunting, the .357 magnum.

For anyone who says it's an answer to a question never asked, that's just ridiculous. You can say the same thing about pretty much any cartridge out there. Look at all the 30-caliber stuff. .30 carbine, .303 British, .300 Wby magnum, .30-30, 7.62x39, 7.62x54R, .308, .30-06, .300 win mag, .300 WSM, .300 RUM, .300 RSAUM...I'm sure I've missed a few. I mean, they're all 30-caliber rifles...do we really need all of them? Probably not, but they all satisfy a particular need for particular people. If the .45 ACP was so awesome and perfect and fitting, we wouldn't have any other handgun caliber because nobody would need it.

The .357 SIG does exactly what it was designed to do...replicate .357 magnum ballistics from a 4" barrel with a 125gr bullet. The original standard of the .357 magnum was a 125gr bullet @ 1400fps from a 4" barrel achieving 544 lb/ft of energy at the muzzle. A G32 with a 4.02" barrel can easily push a 125gr bullet @ 1400fps. You also need to remember that a 4" revolver has more barrel than a 4" auto. So making things equal, a 4.75" auto versus a 4" revolver is a better comparison. So based on external ballistics, the .357 SIG does just as well with a 125gr bullet.

Now once you move up in bullet weights and start shooting 158gr bullets, the .357 magnum wins every time. There's just not enough case capacity in the .357 SIG to push 158gr bullets as fast as the magnum. Also, the revolver has the ability to use SJHPs, which have more violent upsets in tissue than JHPs. So based on terminal performance, the .357 magnum is more effective by most people's standards. It is more versatile because of higher case capacity (like a .30-06 versus a .308). And as said, you can run a .38 spl through it with no problems. However, with a .357 SIG, you have the distinct ability to swap your barrel and run a .40 or swap the barrel/mags and run a 9mm. You can't do that with the revolver. And of course you have the higher ammo capacity, faster reloads, and less recoil.

I think the reason that .357 SIG hasn't caught on is because of the high ammo costs. Most just can't afford to shoot it. If you made 9x19 $30/50 rounds and .357 SIG $13/50 rounds, what do you think people would start shooting?

Get the SIG...you'll love it.

:popcorn::dancing:
I've got two .357 magnums and I'm really enjoying learning about the .357 sig. In that self defense niche which is topped by the 125 grain .357 magnum, the .357 sig looks like a really solid performer (in a high capacity auto pistol package). I'll probably start out with a .357 sig barrel in my Glock 20.

Dude, forget the .357 SIG. Get a 9x25 Dillon barrel and send 115gr bullets down the range at 1700-1800fps. The 10mm itself is badass, but the platform gives you endless possibilities. Or you could be a d-bag and get the .50GI conversion from Guncrafter Industries. Possibly the dumbest thing I've ever seen, but I'm sure it gets them plenty of business.

MrVvrroomm
03-31-2010, 21:58
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y148/MrVvrroomm/Shoot/IMG_0658.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y148/MrVvrroomm/Shoot/IMG_0656.jpg

Then there's this. Try this load...357mag, 22gr Win296, SPM primer, 125gr JHP, OAL 1.590"

That round comes out the end of the barrel right at about 2000 fps.

I have .357 mag revolvers and .357 sig Glocks. Neither can pump out a .357 projectile like my Coonan Model B.

fredj338
04-01-2010, 01:00
[IMG]Then there's this. Try this load...357mag, 22gr Win296, SPM primer, 125gr JHP, OAL 1.590"

That round comes out the end of the barrel right at about 2000 fps.

I have .357 mag revolvers and .357 sig Glocks. Neither can pump out a .357 projectile like my Coonan Model B.
You actually chrono that load? I can't get that in a 6" tight revolver, maybe 1600fps, but 2000fps?:dunno:
Several factory 125gr offerings only just make 1450fps at best in (3) diff 4" 357mags. I am quite happy w/ the performance of the 357sig. If you like fragmenting type JHP, then go w/ the std. offerings by Win, Fed or Corbon. They all frag to a certain extent.

English
04-01-2010, 03:11
As said above, the two are nearly identical with 4" barrels and 125gn bullets with all the advantages of cartridge number, weight and size to the SIG. The magnum looses too much to the cylinder gap for its extra effective barrel length to make up.

Once you move to larger gn bullets and longer barrels, the extra case capacity and slower burning propellants make up for the cylinder gap loss and the Magnum gallops ahead.

English

Glolt20-91
04-01-2010, 12:35
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y148/MrVvrroomm/Shoot/IMG_0658.jpg

Then there's this. Try this load...357mag, 22gr Win296, SPM primer, 125gr JHP, OAL 1.590"

That round comes out the end of the barrel right at about 2000 fps.



:rofl:

What's your extreme spread?

Nice looking piece tho.

Bob :cowboy:

GunFighter45ACP
04-01-2010, 13:37
Nice Coonan!!!

For carry, I'll stick w/357sig. My thought being if I'm OK w/the size/weight of a 4" 357mag for carry, then why not just step up to 10mm and...

ABNAK
04-01-2010, 17:05
Million dollar question:

Which 125gr .357Sig loads closely duplicate a Remington or Federal 125gr SJHP load with regard to fragmenting? Obviously not bonded or Gold Dots.

Oh, and before you say Cor Bon keep in mind they were known for using Sierra JHP's but 2 new boxes of .40 165gr HP's I got recently were loaded with freakin' Gold Dots (which I hate for expansion) due to Sierra's inability to keep up with Cor Bon's demand. Not sure if it was just for .40 though, as I didn't ask when I called.

MinervaDoe
04-01-2010, 17:20
Which 125gr .357Sig loads closely duplicate a Remington or Federal 125gr SJHP load with regard to fragmenting? Obviously not bonded or Gold Dots.


from 2001 .... I'm not sure what is available now ...
...115 grain and 135 grain Quick Shok from Triton Cartridge ....the Quik Shok breaks into three large fragments, each weighing about 40 grains


Cor-bon's 125 grain Sierra JHP and the 125 grain Ranier JHP used by Triton in its .357 sig ammo typically expand and then fragment to a 60 percent recoverd weight. As such, the Triton and Cor-bon .357 sig 125 grain JHP are the most accurate duplications of this successful .357 Magnum 125 grain JHP.

ABNAK
04-01-2010, 17:26
from 2001 .... I'm not sure what is available now ...

Thanks!

IIRC Triton is out of business and what remains is whether Cor Bon uses Sierras or Gold Dots.

fredj338
04-01-2010, 17:26
Million dollar question:

Which 125gr .357Sig loads closely duplicate a Remington or Federal 125gr SJHP load with regard to fragmenting? Obviously not bonded or Gold Dots.

Oh, and before you say Cor Bon keep in mind they were known for using Sierra JHP's but 2 new boxes of .40 165gr HP's I got recently were loaded with freakin' Gold Dots (which I hate for expansion) due to Sierra's inability to keep up with Cor Bon's demand. Not sure if it was just for .40 though, as I didn't ask when I called.

If you like fragmenting type JHP, then go w/ the std. offerings by Win, Fed or Corbon. They all frag to a certain extent. Non are bonded that I know of. The 124grXTP doesn't frag but does expand nicely @ 1350fps.

ABNAK
04-01-2010, 18:37
If you like fragmenting type JHP, then go w/ the std. offerings by Win, Fed or Corbon. They all frag to a certain extent. Non are bonded that I know of. The 124grXTP doesn't frag but does expand nicely @ 1350fps.

What kind of velocities does the Federal and Winnie rounds achieve out of a 4" barrel? These are the standard loads, right? Not their premium line like Rangers or HST?

fredj338
04-01-2010, 22:37
What kind of velocities does the Federal and Winnie rounds achieve out of a 4" barrel? These are the standard loads, right? Not their premium line like Rangers or HST?

Correct, non bonded, approx 1350fps+.

fsqridah
04-01-2010, 23:36
Keep in mind that the goal of the .357 SIG cartridge was to duplicate .357 magnum BALLISTICS with a 125gr bullet from a 4" barrel; not terminal performance. Obviously you cannot use the SJHPs in any auto whereas you can use them in any revolver, so the fragmentation is a moot point. They wanted the .357 SIG cartridge to get the same velocities/energies as the magnum, but it was never designed to frag as such. What you get instead is terminal performance on human targets that are very similar to .40S&W in terms of penetration and expansion. They're smaller and lighter, so they have around the same levels of momentum. However, the much higher velocities give the .357 SIG bullets the added energy to punch through hard barriers while retaining .40 performance on humans. It's a pretty good idea. Obviously you're not slinging a tank of a bullet like you will with a .45 ACP, but you can shoot through stuff better than you can with a .45. For some that's a good thing, others not so much. I bank on the fact that if I'm ever required to use my weapon, it will be dim or dark (night sights), the BG will not be giving me a full frontal shot (need 12+ inches of penetration), my mag will malfunction or I'll run out of ammo (13rd spare), or there will be some form of hard barrier shielding the guy (the .357 SIG is a penetrator). For a lot of ppl the .357 SIG is not the best choice, and for whatever reason they make that decision, that's more than okay with me. But for me, it's all about the CYA. :)

fredj338
04-02-2010, 11:17
Keep in mind that the goal of the .357 SIG cartridge was to duplicate .357 magnum BALLISTICS with a 125gr bullet from a 4" barrel; not terminal performance. Obviously you cannot use the SJHPs in any auto whereas you can use them in any revolver, so the fragmentation is a moot point. They wanted the .357 SIG cartridge to get the same velocities/energies as the magnum, but it was never designed to frag as such. What you get instead is terminal performance on human targets that are very similar to .40S&W in terms of penetration and expansion. They're smaller and lighter, so they have around the same levels of momentum. However, the much higher velocities give the .357 SIG bullets the added energy to punch through hard barriers while retaining .40 performance on humans. It's a pretty good idea. Obviously you're not slinging a tank of a bullet like you will with a .45 ACP, but you can shoot through stuff better than you can with a .45. For some that's a good thing, others not so much. I bank on the fact that if I'm ever required to use my weapon, it will be dim or dark (night sights), the BG will not be giving me a full frontal shot (need 12+ inches of penetration), my mag will malfunction or I'll run out of ammo (13rd spare), or there will be some form of hard barrier shielding the guy (the .357 SIG is a penetrator). For a lot of ppl the .357 SIG is not the best choice, and for whatever reason they make that decision, that's more than okay with me. But for me, it's all about the CYA. :)

It's all dependant on the bullet construction though. Bonded, high vel JHP will penetrate well, cup/core will frag. Not really diff than the 357mag or even the 40.

uz2bUSMC
04-02-2010, 11:32
It's all dependant on the bullet construction though. Bonded, high vel JHP will penetrate well, cup/core will frag. Not really diff than the 357mag or even the 40.

You know, your like the only one that really understands that. I have to say this a million times and it just doesn't register with the masses. Long ways since the exploding bunny days, Fred, long ways! I'm not gonna let that go either... just so you know.:supergrin:

fredj338
04-02-2010, 18:00
You know, your like the only one that really understands that. I have to say this a million times and it just doesn't register with the masses. Long ways since the exploding bunny days, Fred, long ways! I'm not gonna let that go either... just so you know.:supergrin:
I'm not sure anything has changed. I still like to explode bunnies, but bullet construction has always mattered. I used to hunt big desert jacks w/ full house 250gr 44mag LSWC @ 1400fps. Didn't kill them as quickly as a 180grJHP @ the same vel. or even a 9mm w/ the old 95grJSP @ 1300fps. Bullet construction always matters, regardless of caliber or live target, unless one can guarantee a CNS shot.:wavey:

uz2bUSMC
04-02-2010, 18:11
I'm not sure anything has changed. I still like to explode bunnies, but bullet construction has always mattered. I used to hunt big desert jacks w/ full house 250gr 44mag LSWC @ 1400fps. Didn't kill them as quickly as a 180grJHP @ the same vel. or even a 9mm w/ the old 95grJSP @ 1300fps. Bullet construction always matters, regardless of caliber or live target, unless one can guarantee a CNS shot.:wavey:

Oh, I understand, that's where our areguments began.:supergrin: It's been a good couple of years here with these discusions, thanx Fred.:wavey:

fredj338
04-03-2010, 00:18
Oh, I understand, that's where our areguments began.:supergrin: It's been a good couple of years here with these discusions, thanx Fred.:wavey:

Yep, guns, trucks, sports teams & women. Probably the only thing guys can argue about & not get to pissed about. Now religion & politics, don't go there.:wow:

fsqridah
04-03-2010, 00:24
It's all dependant on the bullet construction though. Bonded, high vel JHP will penetrate well, cup/core will frag. Not really diff than the 357mag or even the 40.

Right, but revolvers use a bullet construction not available to autos. You can use the right bullet to get the fragmentation, but it won't have the same fragmentation properties as the revolver. All I'm saying is that the .357 SIG was designed to replicate the ballistics, so its original goal was a sucess. Whether or not you can compare it to .357 magnum terminal performance is completely different as well as something that was not really sought after.

PghJim
04-03-2010, 02:56
Like it was said, it depends what you want to do with it. Hunt - use the 357 mag, CC - 357 sig. A 4" 357 mag. is harder to conceal than a G32 (I have tried) and you get twice the capacity with the G32. The one problem with the standard factory 357 sig's is that they go 1,350 - 1,360fps. The ones I have had pressure tested from WW or Federal are slightly over 35,000psi and not the allowed 40,000psi of the round. I have safely loaded 125gr loads to over 1,425fps that pressure tested to 41,000psi at most, which is OK. It does make a difference. I guess factory has to work in every gun, so they are conservative. I have been carrying Buffalo Bore 125 gr GD's which go over 1,450fps out of my G32. Fortunately, I have older lots, because the new ones are not using the right Gold Dot bullet. Actually, if I was allowed to hunt in PA with a semi handgun, I would not have a problem with my G32 as long as the task called for a 125 gr. bullet. Also, a 1 and a half or 2" snub nose 357 mag is not only painful to shoot, it will not even come close to the G33 357sig.

glock2740
04-03-2010, 08:29
Apples to Oranges, really. The only place that the two come close ballistically, is with the 125gr load that the SIG is known for. Outside of that, I think the .357 Mag is ballistically superior, and a hell of lot more versatile. Plus, with the .357 Mag, you can shoot .38 Spl.

And then you have the platform. Pistol vs revolver. They really aren't comparable. Pro's and Con's to both. Lot's of them.

I know a lot of people disagree, but I can't help but feel that the .357 Sig, for MOST of us, answers a question that was never asked, let alone even thought of. Yeah, I know, it's found a home with a number of LE departments. But, they don't need versatility as they have one mission and one purpose in a handgun. Most of us need the versatility.

But, good luck on your search for an answer. I hope however you work it out, you're happy with the decision over the long haul.

SgtSam
Good post. I like the G32 and the .357 Sig round alot. But everyman needs a .357 revolver in their collection. You could get a G32 and a GP100, for about the price of several different models of the S&W revolvers.

Mrs_Esterhouse
04-03-2010, 10:06
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/results.html

Graphed data:
357vs357 (http://intrencik.com/357vs357.pdf)

fredj338
04-03-2010, 12:13
Like it was said, it depends what you want to do with it. Hunt - use the 357 mag, CC - 357 sig. A 4" 357 mag. is harder to conceal than a G32 (I have tried) and you get twice the capacity with the G32. The one problem with the standard factory 357 sig's is that they go 1,350 - 1,360fps. The ones I have had pressure tested from WW or Federal are slightly over 35,000psi and not the allowed 40,000psi of the round. I have safely loaded 125gr loads to over 1,425fps that pressure tested to 41,000psi at most, which is OK. It does make a difference. I guess factory has to work in every gun, so they are conservative. I have been carrying Buffalo Bore 125 gr GD's which go over 1,450fps out of my G32. Fortunately, I have older lots, because the new ones are not using the right Gold Dot bullet. Actually, if I was allowed to hunt in PA with a semi handgun, I would not have a problem with my G32 as long as the task called for a 125 gr. bullet. Also, a 1 and a half or 2" snub nose 357 mag is not only painful to shoot, it will not even come close to the G33 357sig.
This is just as true for 125gr 357mag loads. Current manuf are pretty far off the older stuff. I tested some Hornady, supposedly full power, & the best I could get from (3) diff 4" mags was 1352fps, pretty much what you get w/ most 357sig in 4" guns.

fredj338
04-03-2010, 12:20
I know a lot of people disagree, but I can't help but feel that the .357 Sig, for MOST of us, answers a question that was never asked, let alone even thought of. Yeah, I know, it's found a home with a number of LE departments. But, they don't need versatility as they have one mission and one purpose in a handgun. Most of us need the versatility.

SgtSam
Actually Sgt, versatility is probably the last thing anyone thinks about in a SD/HD pistol. Trail gun yes, but SD, it has one purpose, much like why LEO carry them, to stop a determined threat as quickly as possible. If you think about it, it is a natural developement. The 9mm can only go so far. Everyone touts the 9mm+P or +P+, so since it's unsafe to go +P++, you get the 357sig. If 100fps makes the 9mm better, w/ the right bullet, 200fps also must be an improvement. With the wrong bullet, it will not be able to benefit from the vel. (FMJ & to a point std cup/core bullets.
Being a 45 guy, I was slow to warm to it, but I have always been a 357mag fan. The round offers enough termbal gain, with the right bullet, that it is worth the slight add'l. training to be as proficient as w/ the 9mm+P rounds, but then again, that is how life is, reward vs effort.:dunno:

CanyonMan
04-03-2010, 13:33
I tried the sig. I'll stick with this... (not my ammo choice). I favor Federal 125gr JHP's. (or my own reloads). ;)


http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/1186/dscn1549j.jpg


Good shooting


CanyonMan

N/Apower
04-03-2010, 13:52
I tried the sig. I'll stick with this... (not my ammo choice). I favor Federal 125gr JHP's. (or my own reloads). ;)


http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/1186/dscn1549j.jpg


Good shooting


CanyonMan


Hrmmm...the same guy who uses 147gr 9mm that is very iffy on expansion because penetration is all that matters chooses to use a round known to not reach FBI 12" minimum and fragment? Explain. :dunno:

CanyonMan
04-03-2010, 14:05
Hrmmm...the same guy who uses 147gr 9mm that is very iffy on expansion because penetration is all that matters chooses to use a round known to not reach FBI 12" minimum and fragment? Explain. :dunno:


I don't care what the FBI says... I've seen this round work plenty well over a very lond period of time . There is my explaination. ;)

BTW I carry a 45acp. I just happen to like 147gr in the 9mm. And never in my life have I said "penetration is "all" that matters". I said it matters, and without it you've got nothing. We need to quote folks right now, if we're going to quote.



CanyonMan




CanyonMan

detroit9mm
04-03-2010, 14:14
Im getting a chance at a Sig P226 in .357sig and after researching the round I am really excited about it. It generates more energy than both the .40 and .45 according to manufacturer specs. My local dealer has Winchester Ranger T 125gr. JHP (50 round boxes) for $26.50 (I already bought 2 boxes) and S&B 125gr. FMJ for $22 / 50rounds. Not as cheap to shoot as my 9mm but not terrible. Also, I can buy a drop-in barrel for $160 and I have a .40. Its a win/win IMO!

fredj338
04-03-2010, 14:28
Im getting a chance at a Sig P226 in .357sig and after researching the round I am really excited about it. It generates more energy than both the .40 and .45 according to manufacturer specs. My local dealer has Winchester Ranger T 125gr. JHP (50 round boxes) for $26.50 (I already bought 2 boxes) and S&B 125gr. FMJ for $22 / 50rounds. Not as cheap to shoot as my 9mm but not terrible. Also, I can buy a drop-in barrel for $160 and I have a .40. Its a win/win IMO!
Again, keep in mind, ft# of energy mean very little unless the bullet is allowed to work. A 125grJHP @ 1400fps is going to hit diff than a 125grFMJ. I like the 357sig w/ the right bullet choice. I like the 45acp w/ any bullet choice regardless of energy numbers.:supergrin:

N/Apower
04-03-2010, 14:49
I don't care what the FBI says... I've seen this round work plenty well over a very lond period of time . There is my explaination. ;)

BTW I carry a 45acp. I just happen to like 147gr in the 9mm. And never in my life have I said "penetration is "all" that matters". I said it matters, and without it you've got nothing. We need to quote folks right now, if we're going to quote.



CanyonMan




CanyonMan


So what about all those reports that the 147gr 9mm old-school JHP's suck? They don't say you but the reports of the 125gr .357 Mag does?

Also, I did not quote you as saying that. There were not quotation marks. However, let me go digging. BRB.

ETA: Seems you load that .45 ACP with FMJ when you have your choice. To me, it means that penetration is all that matters to you. Maybe I have misinterpreted.

CanyonMan
04-03-2010, 15:01
So what about all those reports that the 147gr 9mm old-school JHP's suck? They don't say you but the reports of the 125gr .357 Mag does?

Also, I did not quote you as saying that. There were not quotation marks. However, let me go digging. BRB.


Excuse me. Is just me, or do I have the feeling you always trail me around tryin to rumble Hoss?

I do not have a clue what your point is dude, but i know that the WWB 147gr 9mm works very well in the penetration department, and so does the 125gr 357mag JHP. Penetration is very key. Never said it is everything, and there is no more... I don't care about quotaion marks. It is very plain in your wording that it made it look like I said that.

So, you run off and dig around all you want to. I'll make it clear here and now. Without a deep penetrating bullet, without it getting where it needs to go, I don't need it.

Like I said. I do not have a clue what your problem is ace, but climb down you'll be able to see more clearly.


CM

N/Apower
04-03-2010, 15:06
Excuse me. Is just me, or do I have the feeling you always trail me around tryin to rumble Hoss?

I do not have a clue what your point is dude, but i know that the WWB 147gr 9mm works very well in the penetration department, and so does the 125gr 357mag JHP. Penetration is very key. Never said it is everything, and there is no more... I don't care about quotaion marks. It is very plain in your wording that it made it look like I said that.

So, you run off and dig around all you want to. I'll make it clear here and now. Without a deep penetrating bullet, without it getting where it needs to go, I don't need it.

Like I said. I do not have a clue what your problem is ace, but climb down you'll be able to see more clearly.


CM

Don't have a problem, just saw that you posted in this thread that you were a fan of a round that fragments and doesn't penetrate a whole ton in one caliber, and in other calibers, you favor rounds that don't expand at all. Just very curious as to why. I guess you answered that with the statement that it has been proven to work well. I guess now I wonder why you use rounds that have been proven to work not-so-well in other calibers? Just curious about the logic here.

Why is it that you don't load 9BPLE and favor old-school 147gr JHP's that don't expand very reliably in 9mm, and when you carry a .357, you load a round that is very similar to 9BPLE? You yourself have said that 9BPLE has a great reputation, yet you prefer a round with a poor reputation. Now you are using the 125gr 357's track-record as justification for it.

I just cannot follow your logic train and am curious about the "why"?

I had posted in this thread before you did, so I was already interested in the thread. Not "trailing" you at all, just reading the thread and wondering about your response as stated.

CanyonMan
04-03-2010, 15:16
Don't have a problem, just saw that you posted in this thread that you were a fan of a round that fragments and doesn't penetrate a whole ton in one caliber, and in other calibers, you favor rounds that don't expand at all. Just very curious as to why. I guess you answered that with the statement that it has been proven to work well. I guess now I wonder why you use rounds that have been proven to work not-so-well in other calibers? Just curious about the logic here.


Man you got the WRONG guy here, and continue to put words in my mouth.

Read this: I am NOT a fan of fraging bullets. Hate them ! Sometimes almost any bullet can frag, but IF I 'know before hand' that it is "known' for fragmentaion, I would not touch it with a 10' pole. I do not know where you come up with this stuff. I have killed a good may deer with the 125gr fed, in a 357mag. Maybe one or two 'slight frags,' heck most went all the way through ! Talk about some penetration...

Also. I NEVER once ever, said any where on the planet, that "I favor bullets that do not expand.." That is total BS. I use a FMJ in all my 45acp's because I'm old school and chose too. I use a JHP in "everything else I shoot" for SD.

Fast expanders, designer crap, HST's, Frag bullets... NO thanks. But good rounds like GD's, GS's Ranger T's, XTP's all get the nod from me, 'except" in my 45acp's. Everyone on GT that has known me for 8-9 years can attest to this.

So, about stop twist words, adding to, and taking out of context, and "putting words and thoughts in my mouth" I never said or had !

EDIT to correct TYPO... That reads I use JHP's in all my other SD guns... (NOT FMJ)


Enough for me here....



CanyonMan

PghJim
04-03-2010, 20:52
This is just as true for 125gr 357mag loads. Current manuf are pretty far off the older stuff. I tested some Hornady, supposedly full power, & the best I could get from (3) diff 4" mags was 1352fps, pretty much what you get w/ most 357sig in 4" guns.

Fred this really bothers me. I have never bought a factory 357 magnum round but have handloaded many thousand. For most of my gun needs I handload and have some very good loads for most of my guns. However, I understand that handloading is frowned upon in SD shooting, so I go with factory rounds. The Speer 125gr. 357sig bullet performs OK at the 1,375fps they load it, but it performs better above 1,425fps. I have shot a few thousand rounds with 9.3 grains of Power Pistol (may be too hot for your gun - warning) and get between 1,425 and 1,450fps with no sign of over pressure with the Speer 357 sig bullet. Makes a big flash, but shoots well under 2" at 25 yards with my G32. Speer can order any powder burn rate they want and the last 10 Speer factory LE's I chronographed last week, none of them even reached 1,375fps out of my G32.

So from most factory offerings instead of getting a really powerful unique round, it turns out to be a 9 +P++. Well maybe another +.

N/Apower
04-03-2010, 21:20
Fred this really bothers me. I have never bought a factory 357 magnum round but have handloaded many thousand. For most of my gun needs I handload and have some very good loads for most of my guns. However, I understand that handloading is frowned upon in SD shooting, so I go with factory rounds. The Speer 125gr. 357sig bullet performs OK at the 1,375fps they load it, but it performs better above 1,425fps. I have shot a few thousand rounds with 9.3 grains of Power Pistol (may be too hot for your gun - warning) and get between 1,425 and 1,450fps with no sign of over pressure with the Speer 357 sig bullet. Makes a big flash, but shoots well under 2" at 25 yards with my G32. Speer can order any powder burn rate they want and the last 10 Speer factory LE's I chronographed last week, none of them even reached 1,375fps out of my G32.

So from most factory offerings instead of getting a really powerful unique round, it turns out to be a 9 +P++. Well maybe another +.

His chorno numbers look very similar to other numbers I have seen posted elsewhere for Remington SJHP, etc.

glock2740
04-03-2010, 23:48
Hey, N/A and Canyon. Go get a room. You two sound like an old married couple. :tongueout::rofl:

fredj338
04-03-2010, 23:52
Fred this really bothers me. I have never bought a factory 357 magnum round but have handloaded many thousand. For most of my gun needs I handload and have some very good loads for most of my guns. However, I understand that handloading is frowned upon in SD shooting, so I go with factory rounds. The Speer 125gr. 357sig bullet performs OK at the 1,375fps they load it, but it performs better above 1,425fps. I have shot a few thousand rounds with 9.3 grains of Power Pistol (may be too hot for your gun - warning) and get between 1,425 and 1,450fps with no sign of over pressure with the Speer 357 sig bullet. Makes a big flash, but shoots well under 2" at 25 yards with my G32. Speer can order any powder burn rate they want and the last 10 Speer factory LE's I chronographed last week, none of them even reached 1,375fps out of my G32.

So from most factory offerings instead of getting a really powerful unique round, it turns out to be a 9 +P++. Well maybe another +.
I think pressure testing equip has gotten better & because of legal reasons, factory ammo manuf have been backing off a bit on many of their offerings. I remember chronographing older Rem 125grJHP & getting 1450fps in misc 4" rev. Though I have not run every available 125gr factory load, they seem dialed back a bit. I am quite happy w/ 1300fps+ out of my P239 in 357sig. Smaller than a S&W K frame, more rounds & easier to score hits w/ quickly. SOme 9mm fans may argue the merits of another 100fps+ over 9mm+P, but then why use the 9mm+P, or a 357mag (even midrange) over a 38sp or a std 9mm over a 380, etc, etc?:dunno:

fsqridah
04-04-2010, 00:21
Velocity helps, but like Fred said, bullet construction needs to be tailored to perform optimally at that velocity. The Speer rep I spoke with on the phone said that most of the Gold Dots perform optimally at under 1300fps. The reason was that once you push past 1300fps, the bullet "overexpands," which means the petals are pushed back under the bullet, reducing its overall diameter. I don't get too caught up in the whole overexpansion deal like some, but it's something to consider. Like the short-barrel Gold Dots were designed to expand and perform optimally at lower velocties (700-900fps), the bullets they use in the high velocity loadings (like .357 SIG and .357 magnum) are designed for higher velocities, and will not perform well at lower velocities. So in that light, the .357 SIG is not taking a 9mm and making a +P++ version of it. It's pushing .355" bullets (9mm sized) at velocites that a +P++ would produce, but also using bullets that are constructed to operate at those higher velocities.

The 125gr Gold Dots I got from DoubleTap were loaded with 124gr Gold Dots designed for 9mm (deeper cavity with a 6-petal design). My 125gr Gold Dots from Speer have the very shallow cavity with a 5-petal design. While the DT rounds are probably faster, they won't perform as well because they're not designed to work at 1350+fps.

At some point in the near future I'll be testing penetration/expansion with 125gr DT Gold Dots, 125gr Speer Gold Dots, 125gr Remington UMC JHPs (for your standard design JHP), and 125gr Federal HSTs. They'll be coming out of a snubbie G33 with the factory 3.46" barrel and we'll see how they do. I will not be chrono'ing them, only seeing their relative performance on water jugs.

When I was at the range the other day, I ran some Gold Dots and HSTs through to see how the differed in recoil. The Gold Dots were noticeably softer shooting than the HSTs, but seemed softer than the DT loadings. Based strictly on that, I'd pick the Gold Dots for carry, but I'd like to see how they do against one another based on penetration and expansion, and I also plan to use some sheet metal and plywood to see how they perform going through barriers, and see if the bonded Gold Dot has any real advantage over the non-bonded HST. I'm collecting milk jugs, and I'm up to ten. I only need about 40 more. :rofl:

chewybaca67
04-04-2010, 00:36
I like 'emmmmmmmboth. And lots too. 357 Mag. is so flexible with all kinds of loads including all the various 38 loads that everybody already talked about. However, my 357 Sig is really a 5" barreled Glock35 in 40 S&W. except when I swap in my LWD 357 Sig barrel. Not as flexible as 357 mag, but homes loads put a 125 grain 124 grain hp at an average of 1530 fps. Speer manual shows 125 grain 357 mag bullet at around 1443 fps outta 6" tube. Wish I didn't end up shootin' my Chrony :crying: then I could find out the vel. out of my couple of 357 mag revolevers.

fsqridah
04-04-2010, 00:44
Wish I didn't end up shootin' my Chrony :crying:

I've always wondered if people ever shot their chronos by accident. I'd get as close to the thing as possible so that didn't happen.

ABNAK
04-04-2010, 09:03
I've always wondered if people ever shot their chronos by accident. I'd get as close to the thing as possible so that didn't happen.

I hate to admit this but add me to that category. :crying:

If you get too close the muzzle blast will skew your velocity reading.

fredj338
04-04-2010, 11:11
I've always wondered if people ever shot their chronos by accident. I'd get as close to the thing as possible so that didn't happen.
Easily done, don't buy a CHrony! Small, crappy screens & you are shooting at the guts of the system. The CED allows remote shots & the screens are at least 3x better quality, based on my own back to back to back comparison w/ a CED, ChronyMaster & my Oehler.
It's pushing .355" bullets (9mm sized) at velocites that a +P++ would produce, but also using bullets that are constructed to operate at those higher velocities.
So true. I have run wetpack test w/ handloaded 125grSGD. Push them over 1400fps & final exp is pretty unexciting. I have some RemGSbonded rounds. Very shallow HP in the same brass jacket. The expand very nicely @ 1350fps+. I am sure the 124grGS 9mm version would come apart at those speeds. I should load into a 357mag & try (won't fit into a 357sig).:whistling:

chewybaca67
04-04-2010, 11:18
Yep, shot my chrony when I was testing some 40 S&W loads from my G-35, G-27 and my Kel Tec Sub 2000 in 40S&W. There be a lotta' space between that front sight and the barrel on that Sub 2000. Just like an AR. I forgot to adjust for the difference and when I shot, I saw it wiggle and I just shook my head thinkin' "Crap. Did I just nail my Chrony?" Sure did. However, it still works 50% of the time, which ain't sayin' much.

sigcalcatrant
04-04-2010, 12:14
I know a lot of people disagree, but I can't help but feel that the .357 Sig, for MOST of us, answers a question that was never asked, let alone even thought of.

I always cringe when I see the old, tired, mis-used, over-worked and OVER-USED adage, "...answers a question that was never asked". Uh,...the question is, obviously, "How can we get the performance of the .357 Magnum 125 grain JHP fired from a four-inch barrel revolver out of semi-auto for use as a self-defense handgun against human bad guys?" The question was asked, and obviously, thought of. Answer: .357 SIG

N/Apower
04-04-2010, 12:20
I always cringe when I see the old, tired, mis-used, over-worked and OVER-USED adage, "...answers a question that was never asked". Uh,...the question is, obviously, "How can we get the performance of the .357 Magnum 125 grain JHP fired from a four-inch barrel revolver out of semi-auto for use as a self-defense handgun against human bad guys?"

That quote comes from the IWBA. I disagree with Dr. Roberts on several things, but he has been polite and cordial every time I talked with him, so I really have nothing ill to say of the man himself, and I must take into account that he knows more than I do from personal experience. However, I tend to side more with Todd Green and DiFabio regarding this caliber.

N/Apower
04-04-2010, 12:24
Velocity helps, but like Fred said, bullet construction needs to be tailored to perform optimally at that velocity. The Speer rep I spoke with on the phone said that most of the Gold Dots perform optimally at under 1300fps. The reason was that once you push past 1300fps, the bullet "overexpands," which means the petals are pushed back under the bullet, reducing its overall diameter. I don't get too caught up in the whole overexpansion deal like some, but it's something to consider. Like the short-barrel Gold Dots were designed to expand and perform optimally at lower velocties (700-900fps), the bullets they use in the high velocity loadings (like .357 SIG and .357 magnum) are designed for higher velocities, and will not perform well at lower velocities. So in that light, the .357 SIG is not taking a 9mm and making a +P++ version of it. It's pushing .355" bullets (9mm sized) at velocites that a +P++ would produce, but also using bullets that are constructed to operate at those higher velocities.

The 125gr Gold Dots I got from DoubleTap were loaded with 124gr Gold Dots designed for 9mm (deeper cavity with a 6-petal design). My 125gr Gold Dots from Speer have the very shallow cavity with a 5-petal design. While the DT rounds are probably faster, they won't perform as well because they're not designed to work at 1350+fps.

At some point in the near future I'll be testing penetration/expansion with 125gr DT Gold Dots, 125gr Speer Gold Dots, 125gr Remington UMC JHPs (for your standard design JHP), and 125gr Federal HSTs. They'll be coming out of a snubbie G33 with the factory 3.46" barrel and we'll see how they do. I will not be chrono'ing them, only seeing their relative performance on water jugs.

When I was at the range the other day, I ran some Gold Dots and HSTs through to see how the differed in recoil. The Gold Dots were noticeably softer shooting than the HSTs, but seemed softer than the DT loadings. Based strictly on that, I'd pick the Gold Dots for carry, but I'd like to see how they do against one another based on penetration and expansion, and I also plan to use some sheet metal and plywood to see how they perform going through barriers, and see if the bonded Gold Dot has any real advantage over the non-bonded HST. I'm collecting milk jugs, and I'm up to ten. I only need about 40 more. :rofl:

I have some 125gr GDHP TX DPS ammo, as well as 124gr XTP, and some 125gr GDHP LP ammo.

I plan on shooting them into phone-books from a P226 this week (wednessday or so).

I wish I had some HST or something. If someone wants to trade a box of HST for GDHP TX DPS load in this caliber, send me a PM. 50 cnt. boxes.

IF you have some HST and RangerT, I would more than happily trade 1 box of DPS stuff for 25 of each (50 rounds for 50 rounds).

Again, PM me, let me know. I just want to shoot some phone books and water jugs and see what's what. Pix will be taken of recovered slugs. and posted here.

*Canyonman*

I disagree with him and he disagrees with me. I think he is taking it a lot more personally than I am though. Lighten up, eh?

sigcalcatrant
04-04-2010, 14:13
That quote comes from the IWBA. I disagree with Dr. Roberts on several things, but he has been polite and cordial every time I talked with him, so I really have nothing ill to say of the man himself, and I must take into account that he knows more than I do from personal experience. However, I tend to side more with Todd Green and DiFabio regarding this caliber.Agreed! I have no problem with the sentiment attempting to be conveyed. My problem is with the actual expression. If someone has a well thought out reason why the .357 SIG, or round A, B, or C has no greater merit than another round from the same platform, is a duplication of another round from the same, or similar platform with similar capacity, or it just plain sucks, it should be stated. To simply say that a round is, "an answer to a question not asked", is annoyingly intellectually lazy. I'm sure Dr. Roberts has these well thought out reasons, but I was responding to a statement here. Usually when that expression is used it's nothing more than a simplistic platitude applied because the person doesn't care for what it's being applied to. I like to know the reasoning behind the conclusion.

fsqridah
04-04-2010, 19:41
Agreed! I have no problem with the sentiment attempting to be conveyed. My problem is with the actual expression. If someone has a well thought out reason why the .357 SIG, or round A, B, or C has no greater merit than another round from the same platform, is a duplication of another round from the same, or similar platform with similar capacity, or it just plain sucks, it should be stated. To simply say that a round is, "an answer to a question not asked", is annoyingly intellectually lazy. I'm sure Dr. Roberts has these well thought out reasons, but I was responding to a statement here. Usually when that expression is used it's nothing more than a simplistic platitude applied because the person doesn't care for what it's being applied to. I like to know the reasoning behind the conclusion.

I carried a G39 for a couple of months. For those of you that don't know, it chambers the .45 GAP. Of course all the .45 ACP fans rake it over the coals, and they all give you the, "a solution looking for a problem" crap. I won't even get started on why the .45 GAP is a great round, but that's not the point. It's just annoying, and people say that kind of thing because they're ignorant and uneducated on the particular matter. Not to mention, you'll get the "carry a .45 ACP, now that's a REAL man's gun" BS every once in awhile too, which explicitly states why that person carries a gun in the first place.

I just wish that as gun owners, people would take the time and consideration to be well informed, and to base their judgements on facts and actual data rather than their own selfish opinions that have no support other than the fact that it's what they prefer.

GoonGlock21
04-06-2010, 15:04
Thanks everyone for ur opinions, i think im going to go with the mag in a hammerless snub nose. this will be my summer carry for church (i.e. i really need to hide it) carry my g21 in the winter when i can get away with jeans and a hoody, and anytime i oc.
Thanx Goon

N/Apower
04-06-2010, 16:07
Thanks everyone for ur opinions, i think im going to go with the mag in a hammerless snub nose. this will be my summer carry for church (i.e. i really need to hide it) carry my g21 in the winter when i can get away with jeans and a hoody, and anytime i oc.
Thanx Goon

In something that small, a 357SIG is more powerful, but I doubt you will find one of that size.

Mrs_Esterhouse
04-06-2010, 19:43
In something that small, a 357SIG is more powerful, but I doubt you will find one of that size.

Exactly. For the same size and weight, a Glock 33 is more powerful and carries 2x the ammo (10rds vs 5rds) of a S&W snubbie. Once you hit a 3" barrel in a revolver, the 357Mag pulls ahead of the 357SIG.

N/Apower
04-06-2010, 20:22
Exactly. For the same size and weight, a Glock 33 is more powerful and carries 2x the ammo (10rds vs 5rds) of a S&W snubbie. Once you hit a 3" barrel in a revolver, the 357Mag pulls ahead of the 357SIG.

That is kinda debatable. I have seen lots of chrono numbers from 4" .357 Mags running in the mid 1300's range.

fredj338
04-07-2010, 11:34
Exactly. For the same size and weight, a Glock 33 is more powerful and carries 2x the ammo (10rds vs 5rds) of a S&W snubbie. Once you hit a 3" barrel in a revolver, the 357Mag pulls ahead of the 357SIG.

You can pocket carry a J-frame snub, not so w/ the "baby" GLocks. CCW is always abotu tradeoffs. The 357sig is going to be easier to shoot but harder to deep conceal.

Glolt20-91
04-07-2010, 16:03
Velocity helps, but like Fred said, bullet construction needs to be tailored to perform optimally at that velocity. The Speer rep I spoke with on the phone said that most of the Gold Dots perform optimally at under 1300fps. The reason was that once you push past 1300fps, the bullet "overexpands," which means the petals are pushed back under the bullet, reducing its overall diameter. I don't get too caught up in the whole overexpansion deal like some, but it's something to consider. Like the short-barrel Gold Dots were designed to expand and perform optimally at lower velocties (700-900fps), the bullets they use in the high velocity loadings (like .357 SIG and .357 magnum) are designed for higher velocities, and will not perform well at lower velocities. So in that light, the .357 SIG is not taking a 9mm and making a +P++ version of it. It's pushing .355" bullets (9mm sized) at velocites that a +P++ would produce, but also using bullets that are constructed to operate at those higher velocities.

The 125gr Gold Dots I got from DoubleTap were loaded with 124gr Gold Dots designed for 9mm (deeper cavity with a 6-petal design). My 125gr Gold Dots from Speer have the very shallow cavity with a 5-petal design. While the DT rounds are probably faster, they won't perform as well because they're not designed to work at 1350+fps.

At some point in the near future I'll be testing penetration/expansion with 125gr DT Gold Dots, 125gr Speer Gold Dots, 125gr Remington UMC JHPs (for your standard design JHP), and 125gr Federal HSTs. They'll be coming out of a snubbie G33 with the factory 3.46" barrel and we'll see how they do. I will not be chrono'ing them, only seeing their relative performance on water jugs.

When I was at the range the other day, I ran some Gold Dots and HSTs through to see how the differed in recoil. The Gold Dots were noticeably softer shooting than the HSTs, but seemed softer than the DT loadings. Based strictly on that, I'd pick the Gold Dots for carry, but I'd like to see how they do against one another based on penetration and expansion, and I also plan to use some sheet metal and plywood to see how they perform going through barriers, and see if the bonded Gold Dot has any real advantage over the non-bonded HST. I'm collecting milk jugs, and I'm up to ten. I only need about 40 more. :rofl:

I've dropped loading 124gr Gold Dots in 9mm and now load the 125gr Gold Dot because of its shallow hollow point cavity. It's pretty easy to handload the 9mm/125gr GD to 1300fps (G17). Speer published velocity for the .357SIG/125gr Gold Dot is 1350fps which is the muzzle velocity of other ammo companies like Hornady, Federal, Remington and Winchester's bonded RA357S. I expect the MV difference between 9mm/1300fps and .357SIG/1350fps is within the extreme spread velocities of these loads. Knocking on 1500fps in .38Super, the 124gr XTP is upper tier as an explosive self defense combination. Handloaders of the .357SIG should be able to replicate that velocity, but at a much higher chamber pressure.

I haven't seen Winchester's PDX line of ammo in .357SIG or .357mag, but I have it in .40S&W and .45auto. This morning I tested Hornady's Critical Defense .357mag/125gr FTX and was impressed with its expansion through a redwood 4x4 and into water bottles, also low muzzle blast/recoil (4" Dan Wesson). Critical Defense ammo is currently available in popular carry calibers 9mm, .38Special, .357mag, .40S&W and .45auto; no .357SIG at this time.

Using Winchester's penetration ballistic gel data, there's not much difference between the RA357S and 9mm 124gr+P or 9mm 147gr.

Using top end Double Tap velocities; compare calibers in ballistic gel, also included are some Brass Fetcher test numbers;

Here are official gelatin results for all of the DoubleTap loads!
All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin.
DoubleTap 9mm+P
115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps - 12.00" / .70"
124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps - 13.25" / .70"
147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66"

DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"


DoubleTap .357 Sig
125gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1450fps - 14.5" / .66"

DoubleTap .357 Magnum
125gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1600fps - 12.75" / .69"
158gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 19.0" .56"

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

DoubleTap 9X25
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1800fps - 10.0" / .64" frag nasty
125gr Gold DOt JHP @ 1725fps - 15.0" / .74"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 17.5" / .68"

For those who are asking, here it is!
-Mike
__________________
"TWO HOLES BLEED BETTER THAN ONE!"
www.doubletapammo.com
For the 10mm enthusiast!
Last edited by MCNETT on 06-21-2005 at 03:59 PM


http://www.brassfetcher.com/index.html

Ammunition :9x19mm Remington 147gr Golden Saber JHP

Block Calibration : All depths are corrected depths (590 ft/sec @ 10.7cm)

Shot 1 : Impacted at 993ft/sec, penetrated to 14.5" and had an average diameter of 0.618".

Shot 2 : Impacted at 982ft/sec, penetrated to 14.5" and had an average diameter of 0.612".

Shot 3 : Impacted at 981ft/sec, penetrated to 14.5" and had an average diameter of 0.622".

Shot 4 : Impacted at 959ft/sec, penetrated to 14.5" and had an average diameter of 0.627".

Shot 5 : Impacted at 962ft/sec, penetrated to 14.5" and had an average diameter of 0.613".

Cartridge : Speer 125 grain Gold Dot hollowpoint (load #23920)

Firearm : .357 Magnum revolver with 4.0" barrel length.

Calibration : 10.0 0.05cm and 591 0.500 ft/sec impact velocity.

Bullet impacted at 1432 0.500 ft/sec, penetrated 16.0 0.031" and out of the block and had a recovered diameter of 0.651 0.0005".

Cartridge: .357SIG Federal 125gr JHP (Part #P357S1)

Firearm : Recoil-operated handgun with 4.0" barrel length

Block calibration : All depths corrected (From 10.8cm @ 609 ft/sec)

Shot 1 - Federal 125gr JHP. Impacted at 1332 ft/sec and penetrated to 11.8". Recovered at 0.664" average diameter and 125.1gr weight.

Shot 2 - Federal 125gr JHP. Impacted at 1333 ft/sec and penetrated to 11.7". Recovered at 0.644" average diameter and 125.1gr weight.

Cartridge: .357SIG Cor-Bon 125gr JHP (Part #SD357SIG125/20)

Firearm : Recoil-operated handgun with 4.0" barrel length

Block calibration : All depths corrected (From 10.8cm @ 609 ft/sec)

Shot 1 - Impacted at 1381 ft/sec and penetrated to 11.9". Recovered at 0.535" average diameter and 84.2gr weight.



Cartridge : .44 Special CCI Blazer 200 grain Gold Dot hollowpoint (part # 03556)

Firearm : 44 Magnum revolver with 4.0" barrel.

Calibration : 10.0 0.05cm and 591 0.500 ft/sec impact velocity.

Bullet impacted at 905 0.500 ft/sec. Expanded diameter was 0.671 0.0005".
Bullet penetrated to 13.75 0.031".




The factory .357mag Speer 125gr Gold Dot more than holds its own vs Double Tap's .357SIG/125gr Gold Dot.

For snub nose carry, I prefer the .44Special over the .357mag or .38Special, but that's just me.

Bob :cowboy:

panzer1
04-07-2010, 23:13
Apples to Oranges, really. The only place that the two come close ballistically, is with the 125gr load that the SIG is known for. Outside of that, I think the .357 Mag is ballistically superior, and a hell of lot more versatile. Plus, with the .357 Mag, you can shoot .38 Spl.

And then you have the platform. Pistol vs revolver. They really aren't comparable. Pro's and Con's to both. Lot's of them.

I know a lot of people disagree, but I can't help but feel that the .357 Sig, for MOST of us, answers a question that was never asked, let alone even thought of. Yeah, I know, it's found a home with a number of LE departments. But, they don't need versatility as they have one mission and one purpose in a handgun. Most of us need the versatility.

But, good luck on your search for an answer. I hope however you work it out, you're happy with the decision over the long haul.

SgtSamI just would like to add that 357sig dose have "versatility" because you can also shoot the 40s&w if you just get the barrel.Just my 2cents.

panzer1
04-07-2010, 23:34
For SD, definitely the .357 SIG. For hunting, the .357 magnum.

For anyone who says it's an answer to a question never asked, that's just ridiculous. You can say the same thing about pretty much any cartridge out there. Look at all the 30-caliber stuff. .30 carbine, .303 British, .300 Wby magnum, .30-30, 7.62x39, 7.62x54R, .308, .30-06, .300 win mag, .300 WSM, .300 RUM, .300 RSAUM...I'm sure I've missed a few. I mean, they're all 30-caliber rifles...do we really need all of them? Probably not, but they all satisfy a particular need for particular people. If the .45 ACP was so awesome and perfect and fitting, we wouldn't have any other handgun caliber because nobody would need it.

The .357 SIG does exactly what it was designed to do...replicate .357 magnum ballistics from a 4" barrel with a 125gr bullet. The original standard of the .357 magnum was a 125gr bullet @ 1400fps from a 4" barrel achieving 544 lb/ft of energy at the muzzle. A G32 with a 4.02" barrel can easily push a 125gr bullet @ 1400fps. You also need to remember that a 4" revolver has more barrel than a 4" auto. So making things equal, a 4.75" auto versus a 4" revolver is a better comparison. So based on external ballistics, the .357 SIG does just as well with a 125gr bullet.

Now once you move up in bullet weights and start shooting 158gr bullets, the .357 magnum wins every time. There's just not enough case capacity in the .357 SIG to push 158gr bullets as fast as the magnum. Also, the revolver has the ability to use SJHPs, which have more violent upsets in tissue than JHPs. So based on terminal performance, the .357 magnum is more effective by most people's standards. It is more versatile because of higher case capacity (like a .30-06 versus a .308). And as said, you can run a .38 spl through it with no problems. However, with a .357 SIG, you have the distinct ability to swap your barrel and run a .40 or swap the barrel/mags and run a 9mm. You can't do that with the revolver. And of course you have the higher ammo capacity, faster reloads, and less recoil.

I think the reason that .357 SIG hasn't caught on is because of the high ammo costs. Most just can't afford to shoot it. If you made 9x19 $30/50 rounds and .357 SIG $13/50 rounds, what do you think people would start shooting?

Get the SIG...you'll love it.



Dude, forget the .357 SIG. Get a 9x25 Dillon barrel and send 115gr bullets down the range at 1700-1800fps. The 10mm itself is badass, but the platform gives you endless possibilities. Or you could be a d-bag and get the .50GI conversion from Guncrafter Industries. Possibly the dumbest thing I've ever seen, but I'm sure it gets them plenty of business.Hello Fsgridah I have a Question for you on the 10mm. Can you still get real full load 10mm ammo for that caliber?I was thinking of maybe geting something in that caliber but did not want to just get some lesser FBI loads.Thanks

panzer1
04-07-2010, 23:37
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y148/MrVvrroomm/Shoot/IMG_0658.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y148/MrVvrroomm/Shoot/IMG_0656.jpg

Then there's this. Try this load...357mag, 22gr Win296, SPM primer, 125gr JHP, OAL 1.590"

That round comes out the end of the barrel right at about 2000 fps.

I have .357 mag revolvers and .357 sig Glocks. Neither can pump out a .357 projectile like my Coonan Model B.WOW thats realy cool.Can you still get that gun & dose it cost an arm & a leg??

panzer1
04-07-2010, 23:52
Im getting a chance at a Sig P226 in .357sig and after researching the round I am really excited about it. It generates more energy than both the .40 and .45 according to manufacturer specs. My local dealer has Winchester Ranger T 125gr. JHP (50 round boxes) for $26.50 (I already bought 2 boxes) and S&B 125gr. FMJ for $22 / 50rounds. Not as cheap to shoot as my 9mm but not terrible. Also, I can buy a drop-in barrel for $160 and I have a .40. Its a win/win IMO!I have the sig226 in 357sig & it came with the 40s&w barrel. It's a great gun I got it on line buds gun shop.

panzer1
04-08-2010, 00:04
Fred this really bothers me. I have never bought a factory 357 magnum round but have handloaded many thousand. For most of my gun needs I handload and have some very good loads for most of my guns. However, I understand that handloading is frowned upon in SD shooting, so I go with factory rounds. The Speer 125gr. 357sig bullet performs OK at the 1,375fps they load it, but it performs better above 1,425fps. I have shot a few thousand rounds with 9.3 grains of Power Pistol (may be too hot for your gun - warning) and get between 1,425 and 1,450fps with no sign of over pressure with the Speer 357 sig bullet. Makes a big flash, but shoots well under 2" at 25 yards with my G32. Speer can order any powder burn rate they want and the last 10 Speer factory LE's I chronographed last week, none of them even reached 1,375fps out of my G32.

So from most factory offerings instead of getting a really powerful unique round, it turns out to be a 9 +P++. Well maybe another +.Can I put my 2cents in?? I my self like the 357sig but what p/o's me is I find it hard to find ammo thats over 1375fps or so. Like you said it should be in the 1425,1450fps range.

fsqridah
04-08-2010, 23:35
Hello Fsgridah I have a Question for you on the 10mm. Can you still get real full load 10mm ammo for that caliber?I was thinking of maybe geting something in that caliber but did not want to just get some lesser FBI loads.Thanks

Absolutely. Doubletap and Buffalo Bore would be your best place to look. There have been some recent concerns regarding DT's loading specs and many state that if they actually meet their claim velocities from the listed handgun model, then they're pushing beyond the SAAMI specified 37,500psi. The 10mm case can hold significantly more than that, but it's just not worth taking the chance of losing your hand just to get another 50-100fps so you can brag about it on the internet. :supergrin: I've never had an issue with weakened cases or primer flow from my DT ammo, but I only ran 150-200 rounds of DT ammo through my G29 while I had it. Some of the guys are here run thousands of DT rounds through their Glocks, so I'd go by what they say more than me. I'm not a handloader, so I'm not the one to talk to about proper pressure levels.

The 10mm is a beast if you get the right ammo, and it's versatile as heck. You can convert to .40, .357 SIG, 9x19, 9x25 Dillon, .38 Super, and .50GI with the G20 if you feel the need to do so. Usually 10mm peeps are a fan of the smaller, lighter, and FASTER bullets rather than the big, heavy, and slow bullets that are common with .45 ACP, and even more so with the .50GI. So the .50GI conversion for G20s probably don't sell too well.

The closest thing you'll get to the true 10mm loads from factory loaded ammo is the 175gr Winchester Silvertip or some of the Corbon stuff. Corbon always loads their stuff super hot without going beyond what's safe, and they're consistent. I carried 155gr DT Gold Dots in my G29 and they made one hell of a mess on rocks, cinder blocks, and tree trunks. Then again, velocity and energy aren't everything that matter, but high amounts of both can be fun and addictive.

If you can afford to shoot the 10mm and have solid shooting basics (stance, grip, trigger control, etc), then by all means go for it. Nobody on here will hold it against you. I ended up getting rid of mine because the gun itself was too big for a little guy like to me to carry it well concealed. So I went with the next best thing. :supergrin: Hope this helps. There are plenty of 10mm experts on here.

Bob, I remember reading your picture posts from awhile back on cavity depth, and when I argue about the .357 SIG being tailored for the higher velocities because of the shallower cavity, I always bring in your argument about the .357 magnum bullets having shallower cavities than the "identical" .38 spl bullets.

N/Apower
04-08-2010, 23:39
Absolutely. Doubletap and Buffalo Bore would be your best place to look. There have been some recent concerns regarding DT's loading specs and many state that if they actually meet their claim velocities from the listed handgun model, then they're pushing beyond the SAAMI specified 37,500psi. The 10mm case can hold significantly more than that, but it's just not worth taking the chance of losing your hand just to get another 50-100fps so you can brag about it on the internet. :supergrin: I've never had an issue with weakened cases or primer flow from my DT ammo, but I only ran 150-200 rounds of DT ammo through my G29 while I had it. Some of the guys are here run thousands of DT rounds through their Glocks, so I'd go by what they say more than me. I'm not a handloader, so I'm not the one to talk to about proper pressure levels.

The 10mm is a beast if you get the right ammo, and it's versatile as heck. You can convert to .40, .357 SIG, 9x19, 9x25 Dillon, .38 Super, and .50GI with the G20 if you feel the need to do so. Usually 10mm peeps are a fan of the smaller, lighter, and FASTER bullets rather than the big, heavy, and slow bullets that are common with .45 ACP, and even more so with the .50GI. So the .50GI conversion for G20s probably don't sell too well.

The closest thing you'll get to the true 10mm loads from factory loaded ammo is the 175gr Winchester Silvertip or some of the Corbon stuff. Corbon always loads their stuff super hot without going beyond what's safe, and they're consistent. I carried 155gr DT Gold Dots in my G29 and they made one hell of a mess on rocks, cinder blocks, and tree trunks. Then again, velocity and energy aren't everything that matter, but high amounts of both can be fun and addictive.

If you can afford to shoot the 10mm and have solid shooting basics (stance, grip, trigger control, etc), then by all means go for it. Nobody on here will hold it against you. I ended up getting rid of mine because the gun itself was too big for a little guy like to me to carry it well concealed. So I went with the next best thing. :supergrin: Hope this helps. There are plenty of 10mm experts on here.

Bob, I remember reading your picture posts from awhile back on cavity depth, and when I argue about the .357 SIG being tailored for the higher velocities because of the shallower cavity, I always bring in your argument about the .357 magnum bullets having shallower cavities than the "identical" .38 spl bullets.

Darn right it can. That is why I went with a 357SIG over .45 or 9mm. Noone will say it's WORSE than these, and it sure is a heck of a lot more fun to shoot!

chewybaca67
04-09-2010, 10:41
There have been some recent concerns regarding DT's loading specs and many state that if they actually meet their claim velocities from the listed handgun model, then they're pushing beyond the SAAMI specified 37,500psi.

Speer Manual #13 lists "The industry's maximum average pressure for this cartridge is 40,000 psi." (Speer Relaoding Manual: pg. 504) and this what I been loading it almost to. They don't mention any SAMMI specs in #13. Does #14 Speer manual state anything different?

Mrs_Esterhouse
04-09-2010, 11:17
Absolutely. Doubletap and Buffalo Bore would be your best place to look. There have been some recent concerns regarding DT's loading specs and many state that if they actually meet their claim velocities from the listed handgun model, then they're pushing beyond the SAAMI specified 37,500psi.

357SIG is 40,000 PSI for SAAMI. Most ammo makers load well below that because their pusshey lawyers tell them to. In Europe, the CIP (their SAAMI) spec is even higher - 44,236 PSI. European 357SIG handguns are certified to comply with both SAAMI and CIP specs and can SAFELY handle 357SIG loaded to 44,236 PSI. Unfortunately, most ammo makers load well below even the whimpy SAAMI pressures. Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, CorBon, etc are only makers loading to the max American SAAMI specs even though the guns can safely handle 4000+ more PSI.

To sum it up, most American ammo makers rob 357SIG users 7000 PSI of their gun's full potential. I don't understand why this is when ammo makers routinely load 9mm over its safe pressure with their +P+ loadings.

chewybaca67
04-09-2010, 11:26
357SIG is 40,000 PSI for SAAMI. Most ammo makers load well below that because their pusshey lawyers tell them to. In Europe, the CIP (their SAAMI) spec is even higher - 44,236 PSI. European 357SIG handguns are certified to comply with both SAAMI and CIP specs and can SAFELY handle 357SIG loaded to 44,236 PSI. Unfortunately, most ammo makers load well below even the wimpy SAAMI pressures. Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, CorBon, etc are only makers loading to the max American SAAMI specs even though the guns can safely handle 4000+ more PSI.

To sum it up, most American ammo makers rob 357SIG users 7000 PSI of their gun's potential.

Whimpy bastards.

fredj338
04-09-2010, 11:38
357SIG is 40,000 PSI for SAAMI. Most ammo makers load well below that because their pusshey lawyers tell them to. In Europe, the CIP (their SAAMI) spec is even higher - 44,236 PSI. European 357SIG handguns are certified to comply with both SAAMI and CIP specs and can SAFELY handle 357SIG loaded to 44,236 PSI. Unfortunately, most ammo makers load well below even the wimpy SAAMI pressures. Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, CorBon, etc are only makers loading to the max American SAAMI specs even though the guns can safely handle 4000+ more PSI.

To sum it up, most American ammo makers rob 357SIG users 7000 PSI of their gun's full potential. I don't understand why this is when ammo makers routinely load 9mm over its safe pressure with their +P+ loadings.

Europe doesn't have the letigious structure we have here. Also consider that 4Kpsi can be the diff switching primers or bullet setback of less than 0.06". Throw in a lawyer & you can understand the ammo manuf. want to hedge in their favor. CorBon has always had QC issues, DT switched bullets like my wife does shoes.:dunno:

N/Apower
04-09-2010, 16:53
I have yet to hear or see anything bad about Buffalo Bore other than their prices, though. I'm not willing to pay 120% money more per bullet for 3.5% more velocity.

Mrs_Esterhouse
04-09-2010, 16:59
Europe doesn't have the letigious structure we have here. Also consider that 4Kpsi can be the diff switching primers or bullet setback of less than 0.06". Throw in a lawyer & you can understand the ammo manuf. want to hedge in their favor. CorBon has always had QC issues, DT switched bullets like my wife does shoes.:dunno:

Ya, but they make 9mm +P+ all day long, which is over SAAMI's safe pressure limits. Why wouldn't they be worried about lawsuits resulting from those practices?

Glolt20-91
04-09-2010, 17:35
The 10mm is a beast if you get the right ammo, and it's versatile as heck. You can convert to .40, .357 SIG, 9x19, 9x25 Dillon, .38 Super, and .50GI with the G20 if you feel the need to do so. Usually 10mm peeps are a fan of the smaller, lighter, and FASTER bullets rather than the big, heavy, and slow bullets that are common with .45 ACP, and even more so with the .50GI. So the .50GI conversion for G20s probably don't sell too well.

The closest thing you'll get to the true 10mm loads from factory loaded ammo is the 175gr Winchester Silvertip or some of the Corbon stuff. Corbon always loads their stuff super hot without going beyond what's safe, and they're consistent. I carried 155gr DT Gold Dots in my G29 and they made one hell of a mess on rocks, cinder blocks, and tree trunks. Then again, velocity and energy aren't everything that matter, but high amounts of both can be fun and addictive.

If you can afford to shoot the 10mm and have solid shooting basics (stance, grip, trigger control, etc), then by all means go for it. Nobody on here will hold it against you. I ended up getting rid of mine because the gun itself was too big for a little guy like to me to carry it well concealed. So I went with the next best thing. Hope this helps. There are plenty of 10mm experts on here.

Bob, I remember reading your picture posts from awhile back on cavity depth, and when I argue about the .357 SIG being tailored for the higher velocities because of the shallower cavity, I always bring in your argument about the .357 magnum bullets having shallower cavities than the "identical" .38 spl bullets.

You've hit the nail on the head, excellent post +1

Go back several years on the GT 10mm loading forum and I posted some IMR 800X numbers using the 175gr Silvertip at 1400fps (G20/6"). Silvertips seem to expand aggressively, they frag but also penetrate. I anticipate a very large crush cavity with this combination of velocity/bullet weight, penetration and expansion.

Here's the shallow cavity pic you referred to, with the deep cavity 124gr GD right lower, all the rest are shallow cavity 125gr GDs.

l-r 9mm/upper 1200s, .38Super/low 1400s, .357mag/mid 1600s;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/GoldDot355-357caliber002.jpg

It wouldn't take much to run the .357mag in the 1700s from a 6" barrel and the Gold Dot should hold up to those velocities. For those who handload, the .357SIG can't compete with the .357mag, even at this weight.

This pic shows the result of a deep cavity 165gr Gold Dot that blew up because its velocity was too fast. Three more 165gr Gold Dots fired into water at mid-level .400 Corbon velocites yielded the same results;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/40cal165GD1500fps016.jpg

Speer #13 didn't publish 10mm/165gr Gold Dot data, #14 does and also states that the 155gr Gold Dot is a fast design bullet, yet it retains a deep cavity. For all practical purposes consider the 10mm/.400 Cobon velocites to be equal, much like .38Super/.357SIG comparisons;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/150GD0_641400CorBon1.jpg

Several years back I did a heads up comparison between 10mm/180gr Golden Saber/6"/upper 1300s and the equivalent sectional density .357mag/Remington 140gr SJHP/6". The MV of the 140gr was low 1500s using a beginning load powder weight, meaning, 1600s can be achieved w/o pushing the load hard.

Barrier 1/10" hard steel plate, Tide bottle (#1 position) split open like a book, all five bottles penetrated and bullet was not recovered;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/357mag140RemSJHP012.jpg

The 10mm/180gr GS also gave excellent performance, but it needed the velocity of a 6" barrel to do so.

If I need capacity and more power than what I can achieve with the G17, I bypass the .357SIG and go to the G20 SF, my second 10mm. I've also hiked in active mountain lion country with a 1911/.38Super/125gr GD running in the low 1400s and did so with complete confidence. Sectional density equivalent to the .355cal/125gr is the 155gr in 10mm. It's pretty easy to run 155gr XTPs and GDs in the low 1400s from a 4.6" barrel/G20; light recoil and muzzle blast.

From a 4" barrel, factory Remington 125gr SJHP chronographs at 1465fps and it's an aggressive expanding revolver designed, low tech bullet that's been getting the job done in law enforcement for decades.

Bob

unit1069
04-09-2010, 18:20
Here's the shallow cavity pic you referred to, with the deep cavity 124gr GD right lower, all the rest are shallow cavity 125gr GDs.

l-r 9mm/upper 1200s, .38Super/low 1400s, .357mag/mid 1600s;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/GoldDot355-357caliber002.jpg

Bob, I've got some .357sig Double Tap 125- and 147-grain Gold Dot ammo with what appears to be the deep cavity round in your photo labeled 124-grain. Both bullets look identical to me.

Can you tell me if either or both bullets were actually designed for 9mm or does Gold Dot make an identical deep cavity round in 125- and 147-grain grain weights for .357sig? And can you tell me something about the 147-grain Gold Dot?

The Double Tap boxes clearly identify both as 125- and 147-grain Gold Dot with velocities stated 1450 fps and 1250 fps. What's your considered opinion of these two .357sig rounds?

Glolt20-91
04-10-2010, 02:07
Bob, I've got some .357sig Double Tap 125- and 147-grain Gold Dot ammo with what appears to be the deep cavity round in your photo labeled 124-grain. Both bullets look identical to me.

Can you tell me if either or both bullets were actually designed for 9mm or does Gold Dot make an identical deep cavity round in 125- and 147-grain grain weights for .357sig? And can you tell me something about the 147-grain Gold Dot?

The Double Tap boxes clearly identify both as 125- and 147-grain Gold Dot with velocities stated 1450 fps and 1250 fps. What's your considered opinion of these two .357sig rounds?

The .38Super/125gr Gold Dot combination (same velocities as the .357SIG) has been a top, reliable performer, overlapping/exceeding a number of 10mm loads.

The 124gr Gold Dot is designed for 9mm velocities, its deeper cavity has less hoop tension than the shallow cavity 125gr GD, allowing it to expand at lower velocities. That's the short version

Here's another view of the 125gr and 147gr Gold Dots you're referring too and you can see the differance in the two cavity designs;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/GoldDot-SJHPsectionaldensity005.jpg

If you look at the two left boxes, just to the right of the word Speer is the outline of each bullet with its respective hollow cavity design.

The 147gr Gold Dot has been an unreliable performer in various barrier tests I've been doing on the Furniture Penetration thread;

At elevated 9mm 1155fps MV, notice in this experiment how the GD petals riveted inward rather than expanding outward;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/Furniture147GD-4x4-lid-rib016.jpg

So, why did the petals bend inward instead of outward?

Barrier was 1 redwood 4"x4", steel washing machine lid, cow rib and 2 two liter plastic bottles filled with water;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/Furniture147GD-4x4-lid-rib005.jpg

In different experiments, these two GDs failed to open up. The left bullet shows jacket/lead separation;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/FurnitureGoldDots9mm147failuretoexp.jpg

I haven't done much loading with the .38Super/147gr GD because, G17, 1155fps, 4 one gallon bottles filled with water, 0.470" expansion;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/9mm147grGoldDot.jpg

Ballistic gel penetration depths can be extrapolated when bullet weight, velocity and expansion are known. Bullet expansion in water, pig intestine and gel are basically the same.

Is anyone else getting mixed results with their 147gr GD testing?

Bob

unit1069
04-10-2010, 07:32
Thanks for the info, Bob.

It looks like I have .357sig Double Tap ammo in two weights that are loaded with 9mm Gold Dot bullets, with the 124-grain 9mm bullet labeled as 125-grain when it's the .357sig product.

I bought this ammo about 2 1/2 years ago before the buying panic so this makes wonder if DT has been using 9mm bullets in their .357sig ammo for quite some time.

What's your top picks in factory .357sig bonded ammo?

Glolt20-91
04-11-2010, 03:26
Thanks for the info, Bob.

It looks like I have .357sig Double Tap ammo in two weights that are loaded with 9mm Gold Dot bullets, with the 124-grain 9mm bullet labeled as 125-grain when it's the .357sig product.

I bought this ammo about 2 1/2 years ago before the buying panic so this makes wonder if DT has been using 9mm bullets in their .357sig ammo for quite some time.

What's your top picks in factory .357sig bonded ammo?

Wow, that's shocking news about DT ammo. :wow:

Other excellent choices would be Hornady's 124gr XTP and the expensive Corbon 125gr DPX.

This link from Gunblast should help a bit;

http://www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell_357Sig.htm

Bob :cowboy:

skip a stone
04-11-2010, 04:54
Wow, that's shocking news about DT ammo. :wow:

Other excellent choices would be Hornady's 124gr XTP and the expensive Corbon 125gr DPX.

This link from Gunblast should help a bit;

http://www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell_357Sig.htm

Bob :cowboy:

Sorry to just jump in here, but I just purchased 400 rounds of DoubleTap 357 Sig, half in 125gr the other in 147gr, and half of each weight was JHP while the other half was FMJ. I was planning on doing penetration tests of steel plate that I had come into possesion recently that could be layered and spaced to determine varying degrees of strength and resistance.

Putting that aside for the moment are you saying that it's possible that DoubleTap has been using lower velocity 9mm (deeper hollow point cavity) bullets in the 357 Sig loadings? If this is the case bonded or not won't this strongly effect the outcome and results of not only my tests, but the way these bullets will perform as self defense rounds should I need them to save my life?

By the way all my 357 Sig DoubleTap rounds bought are of the deeper hollow cavity variety.

-Skip-

unit1069
04-11-2010, 07:11
By the way all my 357 Sig DoubleTap rounds bought are of the deeper hollow cavity variety.

-Skip-

If Speer makes a Gold Dot deep cavity 125- and 147-grain bullet that's loaded with Double Tap ammo I wouldn't worry, but I can find no confirmation that's the case.

What is known is that Speer makes Gold Dot deep cavity bullets specifically in 124- and 147-grain weights, and that these are designed for 9mm velocities. If Double Tap is using 9mm Speer Gold Dot bullets in .357sig ammo then I worry as it's been made clear that pushing the Gold Dot 9mm bullet at .357sig velocities produces failure of the bullet to properly perform.

I have some 125-grain HST and on Bob's recommendation will pick up some .357sig Fiocchi Extrema XTP 124- and 147-grain ammo as well (once I confirm that Fiocchi isn't using a 9mm bullet in their loadings, of course). What I don't have at the moment is a bonded .357sig round that I know for certain is loaded with a bullet specifically designed for the .357sig caliber.

N/Apower
04-11-2010, 10:57
If Speer makes a Gold Dot deep cavity 125- and 147-grain bullet that's loaded with Double Tap ammo I wouldn't worry, but I can find no confirmation that's the case.

What is known is that Speer makes Gold Dot deep cavity bullets specifically in 124- and 147-grain weights, and that these are designed for 9mm velocities. If Double Tap is using 9mm Speer Gold Dot bullets in .357sig ammo then I worry as it's been made clear that pushing the Gold Dot 9mm bullet at .357sig velocities produces failure of the bullet to properly perform.

I have some 125-grain HST and on Bob's recommendation will pick up some .357sig Fiocchi Extrema XTP 124- and 147-grain ammo as well (once I confirm that Fiocchi isn't using a 9mm bullet in their loadings, of course). What I don't have at the moment is a bonded .357sig round that I know for certain is loaded with a bullet specifically designed for the .357sig caliber.

It's a safe bet that any 124gr bullets are 9mm bullets.

For my bonded SIG round, I picked up some of the TX DPS loads. It's a Speer Gold Dot shallow cavity designed to mimick the original loading's penetration characteristics with more reliable expansion, at 1375 published fps.

It shot into a 5-shot group of 1.17" CTC from my P226 at 25 yards off a sand bag.

I like the round :cool:

N/Apower
04-11-2010, 11:01
The .38Super/125gr Gold Dot combination (same velocities as the .357SIG) has been a top, reliable performer, overlapping/exceeding a number of 10mm loads.

The 124gr Gold Dot is designed for 9mm velocities, its deeper cavity has less hoop tension than the shallow cavity 125gr GD, allowing it to expand at lower velocities. That's the short version

Here's another view of the 125gr and 147gr Gold Dots you're referring too and you can see the differance in the two cavity designs;

If you look at the two left boxes, just to the right of the word Speer is the outline of each bullet with its respective hollow cavity design.

The 147gr Gold Dot has been an unreliable performer in various barrier tests I've been doing on the Furniture Penetration thread;

At elevated 9mm 1155fps MV, notice in this experiment how the GD petals riveted inward rather than expanding outward;


So, why did the petals bend inward instead of outward?

Barrier was 1 redwood 4"x4", steel washing machine lid, cow rib and 2 two liter plastic bottles filled with water;

In different experiments, these two GDs failed to open up. The left bullet shows jacket/lead separation;

I haven't done much loading with the .38Super/147gr GD because, G17, 1155fps, 4 one gallon bottles filled with water, 0.470" expansion;

Ballistic gel penetration depths can be extrapolated when bullet weight, velocity and expansion are known. Bullet expansion in water, pig intestine and gel are basically the same.

Is anyone else getting mixed results with their 147gr GD testing?

Bob

The petals bend inward because there is no hydraulic medium to fill the cavity, and you are basically hammering the nose. It's going to collapse. This is a good thing. Instead of expanding and stopping in the barrier, it is more likely to punch on through. Corbon DPX does the same thing on car-doors, forming a wad-cutter profile.

unit1069
04-11-2010, 11:37
It's a safe bet that any 124gr bullets are 9mm bullets.

The Double Tap rounds I have are marked 125-grain, but so far I can't confirm Speer makes a deep cavity .357sig round in that weight. I do believe Hornady's 124-grain .357sig round is designed for that caliber, but then it's not a bonded bullet.

For my bonded SIG round, I picked up some of the TX DPS loads. It's a Speer Gold Dot shallow cavity designed to mimick the original loading's penetration characteristics with more reliable expansion, at 1375 published fps.

It shot into a 5-shot group of 1.17" CTC from my P226 at 25 yards off a sand bag.

I like the round :cool:

I'm thinking I'll end up with the Speer factory round you carry. When I bought Double Tap I could pick it up at MidwayUSA when I traveled through Columbia MO. It was running $25 for a 50-round box back then, and I didn't buy it for the high velocity. It was just a per-round value at the time for what was advertised.

Since the ammo panic I've been reading quite a few disparaging comments about Double Tap ammo, and after seeing this and a couple of other threads I've begun wondering if the 125- and 147-grain Double Tap ammo I have is actually loaded with the 9mm Gold Dot bullets.

Like I say, if I knew for certain that I have deep cavity .357sig Gold Dots in the Double Tap ammo I wouldn't worry. The worry is that I've got 9mm bullets sitting in a .357sig case.

Do you know the particular product number of the Gold Dots you carry? I've pretty much decided I'm going to get some of those regardless of what I might subsequently learn about the Gold Dots I already have.

N/Apower
04-11-2010, 13:21
The Double Tap rounds I have are marked 125-grain, but so far I can't confirm Speer makes a deep cavity .357sig round in that weight. I do believe Hornady's 124-grain .357sig round is designed for that caliber, but then it's not a bonded bullet.



I'm thinking I'll end up with the Speer factory round you carry. When I bought Double Tap I could pick it up at MidwayUSA when I traveled through Columbia MO. It was running $25 for a 50-round box back then, and I didn't buy it for the high velocity. It was just a per-round value at the time for what was advertised.

Since the ammo panic I've been reading quite a few disparaging comments about Double Tap ammo, and after seeing this and a couple of other threads I've begun wondering if the 125- and 147-grain Double Tap ammo I have is actually loaded with the 9mm Gold Dot bullets.

Like I say, if I knew for certain that I have deep cavity .357sig Gold Dots in the Double Tap ammo I wouldn't worry. The worry is that I've got 9mm bullets sitting in a .357sig case.

Do you know the particular product number of the Gold Dots you carry? I've pretty much decided I'm going to get some of those regardless of what I might subsequently learn about the Gold Dots I already have.

Product# 54234

Just pull one and weigh it. If it's 124gr, DT is full of **** and you need to post it along with all the other posts of their hyperbole.

unit1069
04-11-2010, 13:38
Product# 54234

Just pull one and weigh it. If it's 124gr, DT is full of **** and you need to post it along with all the other posts of their hyperbole.

Thanks, I'll order some of Speer's Gold Dot when I see that product number.

I don't have tools for pulling and weighing bullets but maybe I'll ask a mom and pop local gun store if they will. I'll let everyone know if I do.

Glolt20-91
04-11-2010, 16:35
Sorry to just jump in here, but I just purchased 400 rounds of DoubleTap 357 Sig, half in 125gr the other in 147gr, and half of each weight was JHP while the other half was FMJ. I was planning on doing penetration tests of steel plate that I had come into possesion recently that could be layered and spaced to determine varying degrees of strength and resistance.

Putting that aside for the moment are you saying that it's possible that DoubleTap has been using lower velocity 9mm (deeper hollow point cavity) bullets in the 357 Sig loadings? If this is the case bonded or not won't this strongly effect the outcome and results of not only my tests, but the way these bullets will perform as self defense rounds should I need them to save my life?

By the way all my 357 Sig DoubleTap rounds bought are of the deeper hollow cavity variety.

-Skip-

I haven't seen the .357SIG 125gr GD that Unit1069 has questions about. The difference between the 124gr GD (deep cavity) and 125gr GD (shallow cavity) is very noticable; both bullet are .355cal. If either you or Unit1069 have a deep cavity GD bullet in DT's .357SIG/125gr GD, it's the 124gr GD designed to operate at 9mm velocities.

Speer only makes deep cavity 147gr GDs in .355cal, there are no shallow cavity 147gr GDs.

Bob :cowboy:

Glolt20-91
04-11-2010, 17:19
The petals bend inward because there is no hydraulic medium to fill the cavity, and you are basically hammering the nose. It's going to collapse. This is a good thing. Instead of expanding and stopping in the barrier, it is more likely to punch on through. Corbon DPX does the same thing on car-doors, forming a wad-cutter profile.

Yes and no, I've done extensive steel barrier testing, many with water bottles behind steel. Most bullets reliably expand when penetrating steel rather than rivet, hydraulic pressure is not needed for bullets to expand.

This is a pic of a 9mm/124gr GD after penetrating steel and only one bottle, bullet was on the ground several feet away. I posted this pic about the same time when New York State Police deemed the 9mm/124gr Gold Dot a cailber failure and switched to the .45GAP.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/9mmP124grGoldDot.jpg

In this picture we see the hole left by a .357mag/140gr Remington SJHP as it expanded while penetrating the 1/10" steel plate and continued through five more bottles; bullet was not recovered;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/357mag140RemSJHP015.jpg

Both the 9mm/G17 (handloaded with the 125gr SIG GD upper 1200s) and the 125gr GD/.38Super, low 1400s penetrated a 1/10" hard steel plate, plus water bottles. Both bullets expanded, 9mm 4 bottles and .38Super 5 bottles;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/Barrier125GoldDot9mm-38Super-230FMJ.jpg

Hornady's new line of Critical Defense ammo tested top tier in the .357mag/125gr FTX load. Unlike the 9mm/147gr GD/1155fps that riveted during a 4"x4" barrier, water bottle test, the 125gr FTX expanded w/i the redwood 4"x4" and sucked so many wood splinters into #1 bottle that it looked like debris swirling around in a tornado funnel;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/4x4125grFTX357mag020.jpg

Asymetrical expansion was 0.478"x0.628".

If Double Tap's quality control allowed deep cavity 124gr Gold Dots to be loaded into .357SIG ammunition; then those who have this ammunition should contact Double Tap immediately, IMHO.

Bob

N/Apower
04-11-2010, 18:55
Hornady FTX inserts act as hydraulic under pressure. Your round that went through steel looks like all the others I have seen from WInchester and ATK. It expanded radially as the edge of the nose crushed inward and the edges of the cavity mid-way down bowed outward. Kinda like smushing one of those 8oz milk-cartons under-foot to suprise a co-student in gradeschool, lol.

Calling this expansion is not incorrect, but it is not expansion in the conventional sense of the bullet "opening up". Symetrical radial deformation is more technically accurate I guess. IT just seems when you say "expanded", people think about what a bullet looks like after water or gel--"opened".

I have a corbon DPX round that did the same thing when I shot a car door with it. ended up looking like a wad-cutter with slight radial expansion.

unit1069
04-11-2010, 21:43
I haven't seen the .357SIG 125gr GD that Unit1069 has questions about. The difference between the 124gr GD (deep cavity) and 125gr GD (shallow cavity) is very noticable; both bullet are .355cal. If either you or Unit1069 have a deep cavity GD bullet in DT's .357SIG/125gr GD, it's the 124gr GD designed to operate at 9mm velocities.

That's what I was afraid of; the deep cavity bullet is actually a 124-grain 9mm bullet loaded in .357sig Double Tap ammo. I can tell from your posts and photos that I have the deep cavity Gold Dot. The illustrations on the side of the Speer bullet boxes you posted left me with no doubt.

Speer only makes deep cavity 147gr GDs in .355cal, there are no shallow cavity 147gr GDs.

Bob :cowboy:

What I've decided is to keep a magazine of both weights and shoot up the excess. I'm going to buy some Speer #54234 when I find it as that is the shallow "cup" design you have had such good success with. Then I'll have a .357sig bonded round that's designed for .357sig velocities.

Do you know how the Federal 125-grain HST performs? That's what I'm currently carrying in my G-32.

unit1069
04-11-2010, 21:49
If Double Tap's quality control allowed deep cavity 124gr Gold Dots to be loaded into .357SIG ammunition; then those who have this ammunition should contact Double Tap immediately, IMHO.

Bob

I've decided to shoot up all but a mag's worth of the two bullet weights I have (as it's my custom to save a mag of most premium ammo I buy).

There are too many GT members who've stated that they've contacted Double Tap and haven't gotten responses to their calls and emails. It's not worth my time to pursue this; I'm just happy that I now understand that the bullets in the .357sig Double Tap are not designed for .357sig velocities.

Glolt20-91
04-12-2010, 03:05
I've decided to shoot up all but a mag's worth of the two bullet weights I have (as it's my custom to save a mag of most premium ammo I buy).

There are too many GT members who've stated that they've contacted Double Tap and haven't gotten responses to their calls and emails. It's not worth my time to pursue this; I'm just happy that I now understand that the bullets in the .357sig Double Tap are not designed for .357sig velocities.

I feel your pain and there seems to be an increasing number of posts on the lack of quality control at Double Tap. This is a shame because he put in a lot of work at the 10mm reloading forum.

Bob :cowboy:

Case de Callier
04-15-2010, 14:23
Im up in the air on getting a g32 or a new 357 rev. what are yalls opinons on the two 357 rounds? how do the ballistics match up? etc.

...for SD I would go with the G32.