Self Defense Shells [Archive] - Glock Talk

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ContractSoldier
03-31-2010, 22:14
Could anyone recommend a good brand of 12 gauge shells for self defense?.

I'm thinking about the LEO Federal Premium 2 3/4 00 buck with flight control.

Meat-Hook
04-01-2010, 02:03
you already nailed it.

with what you said, thats all you need.

Some will say: "use bird shot". Some will say: "Use a bean bag round".

"it will go thru your walls and kill your neighbors".

ect,..ect,..ect.

If its that bad,...then dont use a firearm. Call 911 and sit on your bed. Hoping for the best with a can of pepper spray.

Otherwise let it rip with the appropriate ammunition that will do the job with *one* shot at living-room distance and be done.

eaglesfan55
04-01-2010, 02:19
load a nice bird shot first then follow it w/ buck shot. if he isnt put down by the bird and is still advancing thats perfect example of necessary force. i dont know anybody that can tank a 12ga shell to the chest at interior home distances and keep advancing on you.

GreyEclipse
04-01-2010, 02:22
I heard and I've read that #1 is the best manstopper.
Plus it doesn't over penetrate as bad as 00 Buck...
But they both work, just choose one and you'll be set.

SiNNiK
04-01-2010, 02:30
Hornady TAP FPD 00 buckshot.

They use 8 pellets instead of 9 to reduce recoil so it remains full bore with a little less kick and they come in two flavors, slow and fast. Federal uses 9 pellets and just makes theirs with less punch to reduce recoil.

Hornady uses low flash powder also in order to save your vision in low light situations.

Jon_R
04-01-2010, 05:45
I bought a case of this and figured it should work and last me a while.

http://www.ombexpress.com/sf_988/c_283/p_AM768.aspx

Win Ranger 12 Gauge 00 Buck.

David Armstrong
04-01-2010, 11:52
I think any of the major brand reduced recoil/tactical rounds will work. I'm not that fond of birdshot, given that it has a hard time killing birds, but 00, 1, or 4 Buck all seem to work well within their usual parameters.

dorkweed
04-01-2010, 13:27
.....

dosei
04-01-2010, 13:51
load a nice bird shot first then follow it w/ buck shot. if he isnt put down by the bird and is still advancing thats perfect example of necessary force. i dont know anybody that can tank a 12ga shell to the chest at interior home distances and keep advancing on you.

I hope you are not under the delusion that bird shot is a "less lethal" option...great way to set yourself up to go bankrupt after a SD shooting if you actually think that.

gnasty1521
04-01-2010, 16:53
Yeah I agree with 00 buck. Think about it, if you "have" to shoot, don't you want it to end there? Plus the deader they are the less they can say how they knew you, you said they could stop by, they were checking in on an old friend, they were drunk and walked in the wrong house, etc etc etc.... The less story the better. Plus, courts want all the ammo they can against the second amendment, and birdshot as self-defense round will give them just that because now you have a maimed BG.

GenoTac Ind.
04-01-2010, 18:17
I use the Federal and Remington LE Reduced Recoil 9 pellet 00. Good stuff fast follow ups, but then again I also have the Knoxx Spec Ops stock. With that said I have a box of 15 3" Magnum 00 15 pellets handy if that sissy ***** doesn't work.:tongueout:

ContractSoldier
04-01-2010, 21:29
I went to a local sporting goods store and got lowest priced 12 gauge 00 buck they sold, Remington 2 3/4 00 buck 9 pellet. I dont think i could go wrong with this shell. I think this will be more then enough for home defense.

Thanks

FLglockdude
04-02-2010, 00:03
My 870 is loaded up with full power Federal Flitecontrol 00 buck.

Z71bill
04-02-2010, 08:56
It does not matter much for inside the house ranges -

Any buckshot - take your pick on the size (#1, 0,00,000) from a major ammo company will get the job done.

IMHO it is a good idea to test pattern your gun - if the pattern is all over the place may try a different brand - but I will guess at inside the house ranges you will be putting lead on the target no matter what brand you are using.

David Armstrong
04-02-2010, 09:02
Please explain!!!! I don't have a huge problem killing birds with my various bird loads!!
Might be a factor of what birds you are killing and what bird loads you are using.

dudehacker
04-02-2010, 11:28
My 870 is loaded up with full power Federal Flitecontrol 00 buck.

mine too. :winkie:

ScrappyDoo
04-02-2010, 11:57
Normally I would just use Winchester 00 Buck, which i BELIEVE Dick's had for like $10-12 for 15 shells I believe... and I keep a bunch of their specials of 25 Remington target loads, usually 7 or 8shot, for $8.97, I keep a bunch of those boxes on hand just in case.

But recently they have been closing out Hornady 00 Buck TAP Personal Defense , 5 shells for $7.97, and I have been picking them up and stocking them away just in case as well. The Dick;s shotgun shelves around me have been pretty bare, PLENTY of the Remington $9 target load 25/shell boxes, but scraps otherwise. THE ONLY Slugs they had yesterday were basic plane jane Rem slugs... and NO 00 Buck except huge expensive packs or the Hornady TAP ones.. ? (Why close them out when they're like the only 00 Buck 5 packs they have to offer/sell?)

sredish
04-02-2010, 12:13
My ego doesn't get in the way. I use Hornady TAP Low Recoil 00 buck, because the guy on the other end doesn't care if it hits him at 1600 or 1100, it's still going to hurt, helps with second picture and over penetration and as long as he's within 20 yards, he's going to know it hit him.

ScrappyDoo
04-02-2010, 12:25
My ego doesn't get in the way. I use Hornady TAP Low Recoil 00 buck, because the guy on the other end doesn't care if it hits him at 1600 or 1100, it's still going to hurt, helps with second picture and over penetration and as long as he's within 20 yards, he's going to know it hit him.


:tongueout::wavey::yourock: Excellent point and post.

Badguy still gonna go :faint:

K.Kiser
04-03-2010, 13:15
You Guy's that have a hard time killing birds with birdshot @ 5 yards need take some training courses, and I don't plan on encountering bad Guy's that are flying 20' off the ground @ 30 mph and 25 yards away... Overpenetration in a home is a very real situation and no Man is gonna take 660 grains of shot traveling @ 1250 fps in the upper torso and do anything but die, that's more than 3x the impact of a very agressive .45 ACP round... Inside of a home, no more than high brass squirrel shot... A good Friend that I went to high school with has now been a detective for 12 years has yet to see a survivor of any sort of shotgun blast to the torso at home defense distances... Outdoors, shoot'em with whatever You want... Not that I'm an elite, but I've been shooting guns My whole life and tens of thousands of shotguns shells at most everything and all distances... Shoot a bad Guy in the upper torso inside a home, and He won't bother anyone ever again...

VZ1600
04-03-2010, 15:16
You Guy's that have a hard time killing birds with birdshot @ 5 yards need take some training courses, and I don't plan on encountering bad Guy's that are flying 20' off the ground @ 30 mph and 25 yards away... Overpenetration in a home is a very real situation and no Man is gonna take 660 grains of shot traveling @ 1250 fps in the upper torso and do anything but die, that's more than 3x the impact of a very agressive .45 ACP round... Inside of a home, no more than high brass squirrel shot... A good Friend that I went to high school with has now been a detective for 12 years has yet to see a survivor of any sort of shotgun blast to the torso at home defense distances... Outdoors, shoot'em with whatever You want... Not that I'm an elite, but I've been shooting guns My whole life and tens of thousands of shotguns shells at most everything and all distances... Shoot a bad Guy in the upper torso inside a home, and He won't bother anyone ever again...

The summary on the second page of the link pretty much disagrees with your post. Sorry.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Not trying to pick a fight here, just trying to be informative.

That being said, I keep Remington 2 3/4 inch 0 buck (12 pellet) in my Mossberg 930 SPX and Federal 2 3/4 inch low recoil 00 buck (9 pellet) in my Mossberg 500A.

ManWitaBigStick24
04-03-2010, 15:47
Federal premium flitecontrol buck and Federal tru-ball slugs two kick ***** rounds

K.Kiser
04-03-2010, 17:46
I have My doubts about that report... It was said in that report that it takes #1 buck to reach vitals at close range, and that it laughable... I've shot 150 lbs. wild hogs with #4 buckshot and had the shot pass through the vitals and very effectively stopping the hog and that was at 20-25 yards... Essentially the writer of that article is stating that a human @ home range is more difficult to penetrate than is a leather skinned boar @ 4x the distance, I'm not buying... I've had 00 Buck pellets pass completely through medium size whitetail deer @ 20 yards and I'm not interested in that performance inside a home unless I'm the only resident in the house... Another experience that forms My decision is seeing a 135 lbs. Doe getting put on the table by 7 1/2 shot lowbrass 12 ga... It was only at less than 10 yards When My Uncle was awaking by a dumb curious deer while He fell asleep squirell hunting... That is a very unpreferred round for deer but it made the deer very dead, and will a Man also...I'm not holding You accountable for the article and I don't take it negatively, but rather I simply have My doubts based on nearly 30 years of shooting stuff.. Opinions are hard to sway, and I won't get in it any further so to each His own...

notosw
04-03-2010, 19:22
load a nice bird shot first then follow it w/ buck shot. if he isnt put down by the bird and is still advancing thats perfect example of necessary force.

Don't want to sound like a jerk, but you better have a good reason (necessary force) the first time you shoot someone, regardless of the load you use. The ballistic studies I have seen show no significant difference b/w bird shot and buck shot at inside home distances. Use bird shot if you wish, but don't be under the illusion it somehow changes the dynamics of a justifiable shooting.

Comp_sH00teR24
04-03-2010, 19:44
I keep my 870 loaded with #4 buckshot, since it is my primary HD gun and i live in an apartment, they shouldn't penetrate as far as 00. My side saddle is loaded with S&B OO...which has 12 pellets instead of 9 and patterns really well. They are a bit longer though.
As far as patterns are concerned...with the federal flight control 00 they will give you about a 2inch pattern at 21 feet (18.5in barrel). Where as my #4 buckshot is about 7-8 in. The S&B is usually around 5-6. Some of the best patterning stuff i have (that is not the flight control from federal) is some regular remington 9 pellet 00. It was military surplus and gives consistently evenly spaced round patterns at about 6in at 21 feet...for the price this is the best stuff i have sitting around.

ScrappyDoo
04-03-2010, 19:45
LOL here comes the birdshot mafia...

Please research physics.

all those little shots don't add up to one big shot. it's about as simple as it can be broken down to explain.

Faulkner
04-03-2010, 19:59
We've not had a problem with birds invading homes in my area, hence I don't intend to keep my home defense shotgun loaded with birdshot.

krab
04-04-2010, 00:00
Personally I like Grizzly Bear ammo for my shotgun. Just last week I had 2 700 lb. boars knock at my door and asked for some handouts. I told them to wait another few weeks and obama will come up with an entitlement plan for them.

ScrappyDoo
04-05-2010, 07:12
Personally I like Grizzly Bear ammo for my shotgun. Just last week I had 2 700 lb. boars knock at my door and asked for some handouts. I told them to wait another few weeks and obama will come up with an entitlement plan for them.

You rude mofo, alwAYS ASK *** ASK ASK ASK*** BEARS ...

don't TELL, you ask...

David Armstrong
04-05-2010, 12:19
Overpenetration in a home is a very real situation and no Man is gonna take 660 grains of shot traveling @ 1250 fps in the upper torso and do anything but die, that's more than 3x the impact of a very agressive .45 ACP round..
Your 660 grains of shot are not a solid mass, thus to try to calculate as if they were is rather deceptive. You don't have a 660 grain projectile, you have a bunch of 1 to 2 grain projectiles. In fact, a lot of that light birdshot will be stopped by a good leather coat. Testing in ballistic gel at close range shows birdshot commonly failing to reach more than 6 inches deep, where 12 inches is generally considered the minimum effective depth.

vafish
04-05-2010, 12:41
Pretty much any shotgun load that can penetrate a human enough to stop them reliably will also penetrate common stick built homes easily as well.

It's isn't safer to use bird shot loads, it is only slightly less dangerous when considering over penetration.

You have a responsibility to know your target and what is beyond, so plan you shots accordingly.

My shotgun ammo choice, plain old 9 pellet OO Buckshot. But we all have to use what makes us feel comfortable, if you are more comfortable trusting your life to #9 bird shot, go right ahead, it's your life.

K.Kiser
04-05-2010, 20:21
if you are more comfortable trusting your life to #9 bird shot, go right ahead, it's your life.

I don't remember mentioning #9, I don't even use #9 for birds but whatever... 7 1/2 shot super speed Winchester (1350 fps) is the lightest that I'll in mine, but #6 high brass is what I use most often.. I agree to use what makes us all comfortable, and I've seen and performed first hand what different shot sizes will kill or won't kill without internet reference... Although I haven't shot a human, I have shot and seen many things get shot and killed that compare pretty well from a weight standpoint... For all the "getting attacked by birds" statements, those are really comical... A 70lbs. pitbull mix doesn't even begin to get up from a Winchester Super Speed @ 12'... The very riled up dog was being use to threaten a small group of Us by an idiot handler until a fluffy 7 1/2 shot dropped it like a hot potato and He hit the ground with little more than a vibrating twitch for a few seconds in his abdomen via My buddies over/under Beretta... I'm not gonna try to make anyone use a certain shell or the other, but I know what the different ones will do... Ya'll haven't been attacked by birds, but I've never been attacked by gelatin blocks either... Send Me hate mail if Ya'll wan't, but if a bag Guy breaks into My house and I can get to My smoke pole He WILL DIE and of that I am without doubt... You Guy's are fun... :supergrin:

K.Kiser
04-05-2010, 20:28
Big difference between a police or military load where there may be 50 yard shots, and in a house where 15 feet is common...

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/shotshells/home-defense/home-defense-loads.aspx

blkt2
04-05-2010, 23:02
My ego doesn't get in the way. I use Hornady TAP Low Recoil 00 buck, because the guy on the other end doesn't care if it hits him at 1600 or 1100, it's still going to hurt, helps with second picture and over penetration and as long as he's within 20 yards, he's going to know it hit him.

I just tried the blue hull low recoil Hornady TAP 12ga 00 buck and my 8 year old was able to handle the recoil but it would not cycle any semi auto that I tried it in. Works great in my 870 though.

zx2loon
04-06-2010, 02:51
2rds of Nobel Law Enforcement Low Recoil 00buck (incase the wife has to shoot it:upeyes:), then 3 rds of Centurion Multi-Defense buck. (Those Italians can make some nasty stuff..... a single .650 sized pellet along with six #1 buckshot pellets going at 1300fps.......total destruction out of my Mossy.:supergrin:)

In the side saddle is 3 Federal TruBall Slugs and 3 more of the 00 buck.

Of course I have a 50rd bandolier filled with the above 3 types of rounds hanging right beside ole' Mossy waiting "in case"....:whistling: :yawn:


The awsome part of it all is I live in a brick house so I definatly don't have to worry about the neighbors.....:rofl:

KDawg0007
04-06-2010, 05:06
The new Remington home defense loads look interesting. Mixed #2 and #4 seem like a good compromise between the buckshot and birdshot. I'd be interested to see how it patterns.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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vafish
04-06-2010, 06:20
I don't remember mentioning #9, I don't even use #9 for birds but whatever...

I didn't quote you or say that you did mention #9 shot, I didn't mention your name at all. I didn't say anything about you.

I said "...we all have to use what makes us feel comfortable, if you are more comfortable trusting your life to #9 bird shot, go right ahead, it's your life."

The "you" in the statement refers to anyone reading the post, not k.kiser specifically.

Maybe I should have said:

..we all have to use what makes us feel comfortable, if ANY PERSON WHO READS THIS is more comfortable trusting their life to #9 bird shot, go right ahead, it's your life....

If you shoot someone in the chest with a light skeet load of #9 shot at a distance of 15 feet across a room they are probably going to stop what they are doing. Those that complain about bird shot not having enough penetration are fooling themselves about it's effectiveness at close range. Sure it won't penetrate 12" in Ballistic Gel, but when was the last time you saw someone who's heart was behind 12" of living tissue? Most people hearts and major blood vessels are only a few inches below the surface of their skin on a frontal shot typical in home defense.

But, I don't think bird shot is the best all around choice for home defense. Why is that? Because you might need more penetration, your attackers might be wearing heavy clothing, you might need to take a longer shot then 15 feet, your attacker might be partially hidden behind an interior wall or furniture and a ton of other things that could make bird shot a less then optimal choice. And you won't have time to change out your ammunition.

I also think the worry about over penetration when using buckshot is unfounded. I've shot deer with 3" magnum OO Buck shot and not had a single pellet penetrate completely through the deer. That includes shooting them in the neck from 15 feet away. I'm not worried about the pellets penetrating a person and injuring someone on the other side. What I am worried about is missing a person and injuring someone on the other side. If I miss them it really doesn't matter if I'm using #9 shot or OO Buck Shot there is still a danger to people on the other side. Even a load of #9 shot will penetrate typical building material and injure someone on the other side. (although the buck shot will retain more energy and do more damage after penetrating the wall which is why I mentioned it as a reason for preferring buckshot when an attacker is partially hidden behind an interior wall or furniture)

This birdshot vs. buckshot for home defense argument is just like any other caliber war on the internet. Everyone gets so wrapped up in their choice and being right about their decisions that they can't see any other point of view.

I don't want to get shot with a load of bird shot at 15 feet, but if I'm doing the shooting I'd much rather have the gun loaded with buckshot.

And finally, the Original Poster didn't say anything about home defense, he asked for shotgun ammo for self defense which could be inside the home or outside of it. The best all around self defense load for the 12 ga shotgun is OO Buckshot.

VZ1600
04-06-2010, 10:33
The new Remington home defense loads look interesting. Mixed #2 and #4 seem like a good compromise between the buckshot and birdshot. I'd be interested to see how it patterns.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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I have seen those locally and for a box of 10 rounds they want $30! If one wants to go that route, why not just get a box of Winchester Super-X #2 shot, 25 round box for $12? I'm not picking on you about the ammo in question, I'm just saying.

That being said, something in a smaller shot size that would seem to be a bit more effective (and a little bit cheaper) would be be this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJTtkEEaOiU

David Armstrong
04-06-2010, 14:04
But, I don't think bird shot is the best all around choice for home defense. Why is that? Because you might need more penetration, your attackers might be wearing heavy clothing, you might need to take a longer shot then 15 feet, your attacker might be partially hidden behind an interior wall or furniture and a ton of other things that could make bird shot a less then optimal choice. And you won't have time to change out your ammunition.
Exactly. I quit believing in birdshot after handling a call where the BG had been hit 3 times with 12 gauge birdshot (some turkey load, #6 I think) and not a single pellet had penetrated him more than an inch. One round in the back of a heavy leather coat with a quilted vest under it, one round in the front (mostly coat without much vest) and one through a couch pillow and the leather coat (most of which stayed in the leather).

K.Kiser
04-06-2010, 15:20
I went to a local sporting goods store and got lowest priced 12 gauge 00 buck they sold, Remington 2 3/4 00 buck 9 pellet. I dont think i could go wrong with this shell. I think this will be more then enough for home defense.

Thanks

Post #4 by the original poster...

B Coyote
04-09-2010, 08:48
My gun is kept loaded with #4 Buck because I live in an apartment.

If I had to choose a single defensive load, it would be Ranger Low Recoil 00 Buck.

bc

Willies
04-09-2010, 09:28
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot22.htm

vafish
04-10-2010, 20:22
Here is an article about a recent shooting on the Blue Ridge Parkway.

Shooter used a 20 ga shotgun with #4 bird shot.

From the article:

The victims were in a green Honda at the overlook when the shooter pulled in, pointed a shotgun through the driver’s-side window and fired, hitting both in the back, Fisher said.

Gun through the driver side window to the back and the woman in the passenger seat got out of the car and wrestled with the shooter.

I don't know the exact distances involved, but it doesn't sound like it was more than across a room. Also no mention if the window was up or down.

wilson133
04-11-2010, 07:05
Supposedly, more people have been killed by a .22 than any other round, but I don't expect to see any police departments adapting it. Birdshot might stop a BG and it might not, why bet on the less effective round? Odds are that you'll never know what works for you because you'll never be in that situation. However, as an experienced trainer once said, "It's not the odds, the consequences.