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bigleaf
04-05-2010, 10:28
I thought I'd go to the experts, since I've not found these combinations in manuals or on line... parts of each, but not the whole formula for 9mm. I'll shoot them out of a 19 and a 26.

I picked up 1,000 124 gr Gold Dot bullets and want to make up some loads for practice that act the same as my carry loads. I want to shoot some moving targets and would like the loads to travel pretty much the same speed, so that I can get used to the lead I'd need. I've got Bullseye, Silhouette, and 3N37 to work with. I'd prefer a suppressed flash powder like those, but powder's cheap enough, I can get something else, if you've got a great load.

I'd like to end up with 1200 +/- fps muzzle velocity. I'll be using Federal Small Pistol primers. And, I'll work up to whatever loads you suggest, testing as I go.

So, any suggestions as to powder weights and OALs? Thanks.

fredj338
04-05-2010, 11:25
Well forget BE, not flash suppressed & way too fast for safe 1200fps loads. You can get there w/ the other two, look into their reloading data. I do not use them but can get 1200fps easily w/ Unique or WSF, both a bit faster.

bigleaf
04-05-2010, 11:35
Thanks, fredj338. The Silhouette data I've seen shows loads for Hornady XTPs in 124, but no Gold Dots, The 3N37 shows data for Lapua Megashocks and CEPPs (I've never seen those in person) some ball and semi wadcutters, but again, not a Gold Dot. My concern is that these loads will be hot and I'd sure like a reliable OAL to go with the powder charge. I'm not fond of putting my hands in danger of a blowout if I seat the rascals too deep. ;-)

fredj338
04-05-2010, 14:13
Thanks, fredj338. The Silhouette data I've seen shows loads for Hornady XTPs in 124, but no Gold Dots, The 3N37 shows data for Lapua Megashocks and CEPPs (I've never seen those in person) some ball and semi wadcutters, but again, not a Gold Dot. My concern is that these loads will be hot and I'd sure like a reliable OAL to go with the powder charge. I'm not fond of putting my hands in danger of a blowout if I seat the rascals too deep. ;-)
Use the same data & drop 5% & work it back up. W/O a chronograph though, you will have no idea where you are going or when you get there. Working up +P data is NOT for the newb w/o some proper gear (chrono) & some reloading exp (reading pressure signs, extrapolating data, etc). OAL matters, swapping a GD for a XTP matters. Caution!

bigleaf
04-05-2010, 14:42
Thanks, fred. That's precisely why I'm asking for data. I've only been reloading for a few months, but the fellow I reload with has done it for thirty years. We'll have his chrono available, too. I just don't have a great place to start with the Silhouette or the 3N37 under these GDs... My friend mostly shoots Cowboy these days and a .45 for SD. I'm sure he feels like he's just humoring me with the 9mm. :embarassed:

All that said, anyone out there got charge weights and an OAL for these?

tjpet
04-05-2010, 16:42
Random case
Win. SP primer
6.2grns. WSF
115/124grn. bullet
1.150" OAL

Without a doubt the most accurate, consistant +P 9mm load I've ever seen. Most manuals top out at 5.7grns. so start low and work your way up. Good for 1250fps, give or take, depending on barrel length.

fredj338
04-05-2010, 17:07
Random case
Win. SP primer
6.2grns. WSF
115/124grn. bullet
1.150" OAL

Without a doubt the most accurate, consistant +P 9mm load I've ever seen. Most manuals top out at 5.7grns. so start low and work your way up. Good for 1250fps, give or take, depending on barrel length.
Yep, I go 6.1gr WSF under a 124grRGS @ 1.135" for 1215fps in my G17. 6gr of Unique will do the same. I consider both pushing +P.

Colorado4Wheel
04-05-2010, 17:21
Keep to reloading data. Use a slower powder to simulate the added punch of the factory loads. I wouldn't even use max reloading data with out a chrono. No freaking way you will notice the difference between 1150fps and 1220fps on a moving target. Never mind the factory stuff isn't going 1220fps (or whatever they claim) in your gun. I would concentrate on making safe middle to upper middle reloads and forget about the rest of it. Slower powders in upper middle range of the load data will be plenty punchy of practice.

bigleaf
04-05-2010, 18:52
Use a slower powder to simulate the added punch of the factory loads.

Thanks, C4W. Any suggestion as to which slow powder I might go with?

Colorado4Wheel
04-05-2010, 18:56
AA#7? I know nothing about "flash suppressed" powders. I use Power Pistol which has a huge flash inside. I don't see it at all. I have used #7 and it's a lot like PP in feel and velocity.

bigleaf
04-05-2010, 18:57
Random case
Win. SP primer
6.2grns. WSF
115/124grn. bullet
1.150" OAL

Without a doubt the most accurate, consistant +P 9mm load I've ever seen. Most manuals top out at 5.7grns. so start low and work your way up. Good for 1250fps, give or take, depending on barrel length.

Now we're talking! I might have to high myself off to the store & get some WSF. Thanks, tjpet.

fredj338
04-05-2010, 21:07
Now we're talking! I might have to high myself off to the store & get some WSF. Thanks, tjpet.
WSF is very good in the 9mm w/ all bullet wts. Just don't be stuffing 6.2gr in w/o working that load up from somewhere around 5.2gr. Like C$W said, you won't notice 50fps on a moving target at any normal handgun range under 50yds.

dougader
04-05-2010, 21:35
3n37 and Silhouette will get you where you want to go. Just start low and work up like Fred suggested.

nitesite10mm
04-05-2010, 22:05
I'd prefer a suppressed flash powder like those, but powder's cheap enough, I can get something else, if you've got a great load.

I'd like to end up with 1200 +/- fps muzzle velocity. I'll be using Federal Small Pistol primers. And, I'll work up to whatever loads you suggest, testing as I go.

So, any suggestions as to powder weights and OALs? Thanks.

Well, as far as flash suppressed powders for the 9mm I find that Accurate #7 is superb. I get high velocities and these pics I took might just speak for themselves...

Here are some pics of some Law Enforcement 9mm ammo I photographed just last fall:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/nitesite9/FederalBPLE.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/nitesite9/REM_GS_124_plusP.jpg

Now here is some AA#7, under a 147-gr bullet, same aperture and shutter speed and distance, same night, within five minutes of the other two.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/nitesite9/AA7_9mm_147.jpg

And here's where I pushed the low light details as far as I could so I could see how much muzzle flash there was:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/nitesite9/AA_9mm_boost.jpg

It works similarly in the 10mm. As a reference, here's a factory Gold Dot load.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/nitesite9/GAGoldDotG29.jpg

And heres a training load (albeit not a Gold Dot) with Accurate #7 that chrono's less than 50-fps slower than the factory ammo.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/nitesite9/AA7_10mm_180.jpg

I can't carry reloads at all, but used to in days gone by. Now it's all factory, all the time. Just thought you might find my photo's and data interesting.

bigleaf
04-06-2010, 13:25
Dougader, those are some fine looking fish on a fly! My mother-in-law in Wyoming turns 90 this June and I'll visit her (and take a couple of days in the creeks.)

And nitesite10mm... those are fabulous photos. They really show the difference in powder flash. That's unbelievable photography. I have a hard enough time shooting a mushroom or leaves up close. And they're sitting still! I'm going to send a couple of friends the link to this. Great shots.

So, to both of you... Any suggestion for an OAL and start and max powder weights for the AA #7, Silhouette or 3N37 with the 9mm 124 GD?

bigleaf
04-06-2010, 14:49
I just got an email back from Linda at Speer... (if writing to Speer had been a snake, it would have bit me. My family crest should read "Is There a Harder Way?")

1.120 OAL
AA#7 8.1 1077 9.0 1180
VV 3N37 5.7 1063 6.4 1179

Still nothing on Silhouette, but it looks like I'll be picking a pound of AA #7. Thanks, fellas. You all are the reason this site works.

MoNsTeR
04-06-2010, 15:04
Silhouette and 3N37 can both get you to Major, i.e. 1330+ fps with a 124, in appropriate guns, so 1200 is certainly not impossible. Load to maximum possible OAL and work up slowly. You will almost certainly see pressure signs.

My choice to duplicate punishing factory defense loads would be Power Pistol, FWIW. Flashy though.

bigleaf
04-06-2010, 16:51
Thanks, monster. Yeah, Power Pistol will get it moving, but Wow! What a fireball! The Speer manual states 1.120 for OAL. You referred to a max OAL... might that be longer than 1.12?

Colorado4Wheel
04-06-2010, 17:23
Max OAL is loading the bullet to the max that the gun will allow. In a 1911 style gun it may be longer then the 1.169. Even my lead loads with my 147 gr lead bullets are MAX for my gun/barrel @ 1.080. So it's gun dependent. Idea is to make that tiny 9mm case as big as possible by loading the bullet long. In a glock the magazine is ussually the deciding factor for FMJ RN profiles.

nitesite10mm
04-06-2010, 18:22
And nitesite10mm... They really show the difference in powder flash. I'm going to send a couple of friends the link to this. Great shots.



bigleaf~

If you want your friend to see more muzzle flash photos (including revolvers), send him this link:

http://www.glockpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10352

I guess you can tell that I truly am impressed with Accurate #7 for flash suppression. For a Gold Dot 124-gr and Accurate #7 I would start with an OAL of 1.120" per my Speer #14 and work up to somewhere around 9.1 grains, perhaps a tiny bit higher (but that would be above the Speer Manual MAX). And as Colorado4Wheel stated, you can seat the bullet longer and carefully try going higher with the powder charge. Make sure any longer seating drops in your chamber completely and with ease.

While I have not yet tried Silhouette, I hear great things about it and would love to get my hands on some.

PCJim
04-06-2010, 21:16
Be careful if you are adjusting your COL beyond published figures for a specific bullet profile. While it may work in your "test" firearm, it may not work in others in your collection or that you might acquire at a later date. It may be possible for the projectile to reach the rifling in some barrels.

If you do begin to work up loads specific for a particular weapon, be sure to note this on the ID tag you keep with the finished reloads.

rg1
04-07-2010, 01:14
Not the powders you have but a recent test with the 124 Gold Dot using Unique powder, CCI500 primer, and Win brass in my G19:
5.4 grains Unique--oal 1.120"--consistent 1135-1140 fps--50 degrees
Don't know about muzzle flash with Unique. Maximum in Alliant's Guide with Unique and the 9MM 124 Gold Dot is 5.8 grains at 1180fps (unknown barrel length)

bigleaf
04-07-2010, 07:17
Max OAL is loading the bullet to the max that the gun will allow. In a 1911 style gun it may be longer then the 1.169. Even my lead loads with my 147 gr lead bullets are MAX for my gun/barrel @ 1.080. So it's gun dependent. Idea is to make that tiny 9mm case as big as possible by loading the bullet long. In a glock the magazine is ussually the deciding factor for FMJ RN profiles.

So, if it'll load into the mags and cycle in the gun consistently, without the bullets getting marked up by the barrel rifling, it should work as a max OAL. Just short of the bullet getting pushed back into the case when it goes into battery. Cool. Thanks.

bigleaf
04-07-2010, 07:27
bigleaf~

If you want your friend to see more muzzle flash photos (including revolvers), send him this link:

http://www.glockpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10352

I guess you can tell that I truly am impressed with Accurate #7 for flash suppression. For a Gold Dot 124-gr and Accurate #7 I would start with an OAL of 1.120" per my Speer #14 and work up to somewhere around 9.1 grains, perhaps a tiny bit higher (but that would be above the Speer Manual MAX). And as Colorado4Wheel stated, you can seat the bullet longer and carefully try going higher with the powder charge. Make sure any longer seating drops in your chamber completely and with ease.

While I have not yet tried Silhouette, I hear great things about it and would love to get my hands on some.

Lord, nitesite, those shots sure make it plain why I don't like to shoot the big revolvers anymore! ;-) The blast at the cylinder is pretty impressive. I shot a .327 Magnum the other day, that a fella had at the range. I'd never even seen a .327. Well, the blast at my face from the cylinder/barrel gap sure got my attention. Only six shots of that and I know for certain I'll never go looking for one to own.

And, thanks for the maxed-out AA #7 info. I'll proceed with caution. I'm not looking to kill myself, just get to where I can hit something moving and rely on that same sight picture and lead if called upon to use my factory carry loads.

bigleaf
04-07-2010, 07:34
I hear you, PCJim. When I got my first lesson in reloading, my friend was uncharacteristically adamant about recording the load data and my shooting experience with that load in a notebook (which gun, too), and the segregating & labeling of every variation, no matter how small. I've got to admit that I thought he was being a little too hard core. Not any more. Those notes let me return to any previous load to tweak it or to load up a bucketful and get exactly what i thought I would get. Thanks.

bigleaf
04-07-2010, 07:35
rg1 - I think my pal has some Unique in his locker. I'll give that load a try.

bigleaf
04-20-2010, 08:12
Sorry to be so long getting back to this... my sister broker her back, leg, ribs in a fall from a deck and we've been busy.

I got some AA#7 and started with the 8.1 grains, looking to go by increments to 9.1 or so with an OAL of 1.120. Man! Even at 8 grains, that's a ton of powder for that little 9mm case. Fine as the finest sand, and even had to deal with some static, but I feared compression of the powder at even the 8.1 grains, let alone the 9 grains.

Can anyone tell me just how full a case can be before it becomes a danger? This data is straight from Speer, so it should be alright, but it sure looks scary. At the range, the 8.1 shot just fine... a little more recoil than I thought the bullet speed warranted, but accurate and no pressure signs on the empty cases.

I reckon I'll try loading the incremental increases in the next couple of days. But, if anyone knows just how full a case can be before it compresses, give me a hint, please.

tlafrance
04-20-2010, 09:35
About 15 years ago, in one of my manuals, I found data for AA#9 124gr 9mm. Since I was looking for a slow burning powder to use in my AR carbine and take advantage of extra barrel length, I figured this was a win. IIRC the MAX load was 10.5gr C, C denoting COMPRESSED load. Problem was, no matter what 9mm brass I used, there was NO WAY 10.5 gr would fit into the case without overflowing. I called Accurate and to confirm the data and was told yup, good to go. The most powder I was ever able to get into the case was 10.0 gr. Used to joke about "fill it up, scrape it level, seat the bullet". Have never found that date elsewhere, my book is gone in a divorce and all I have is my notes and chrono data left now. BTW 1923 fps out of the carbine with many cracked case in the pile. Never blew a case, flattened a primer or other mishaps. Disappointed I could never get 2000fps out of her:supergrin:

Tom

Sierra9
04-20-2010, 11:33
Anyone use Blue Dot in 9mm?

PCJim
04-20-2010, 15:50
Bigleaf, I've never done this myself, and personally shy away from compressed load. I have read (either here or on another forum) that you can get additional powder into a case by using a powder funnel (or maybe it was a straw?). I cannot explain how it works, unless it is to better allow the individual grains of powder to fit together in the case as it is being filled? Maybe a search of the reloading forum will turn up past discussions on this technique, or a google search.

There are others on here that, if they have used this technique, will chime in.

bigleaf
04-21-2010, 07:42
1923 fps? It doesn't matter what barrel it came out of, that's a pretty fast 9mm!!

I can see how a different technique might allow the powder to fit to itself in the case a little tighter. I was experiencing some static - noticed it when I weigh-checked the powder charge - that kept some powder on the sides of the case at the top, I might just settle for 1100 fps on the AA#7 and a 124 and an OAL of 1.120. Like I said, it's accurate (no pun intended) and it'll show almost no flash (as seen in those great photos), but I will need some convincing to feel confident that I'm not on the verge of something awful with that much powder in that little case.

Still, I'm going to try playing with the OAL... see if I can get some more room in the case and still feed and go into battery on my 19 and 26. I mean, what are hobbies for, if not experimenting??

Anyone heard about the straw or powder funnel method PCJim mentioned?

GioaJack
04-21-2010, 09:00
Anyone heard about the straw or powder funnel method PCJim mentioned?


The use of a drop tube is very common, almost a necessity when loading black powder cartridges since you're dealing with compressed loads.

Normally around 24 inches in length and typically made of brass or aluminum, although some are made of plastic but they tend to build up static and allow some of the powder to stick to the sides. (The most important thing to remember is the material must be NON-SPARKING.)

Since 2F and 3F granulation black powder are both much larger than most smokeless granulations the long length is needed for the powder to gain enough speed to compact itself as it settles in the case.

You can probably get away with a shorter drop tube for your needs but be aware that each case will have to be charged individually with the cases placed in a loading block or directly onto your shell plate or shell holder.

Obviously you can not do it on a progressive, you'll have to use a stand alone powder measure. Seems like a lot of trouble, especially since there are so many effective non-compressed loads out there.

Jack

bigleaf
04-21-2010, 09:58
Thanks, 'Jack. It does seem like a lot to do, especially for something I'll want to load in quantity.

I'll pick up a pound of 3N37 next time I'm at the reloading store. The starting powder charge for that is 5.7 gr, versus 8.1 on the AA#7. That might help me justify spending $29/pound, compared to the #7, which goes for around $17 here.

fredj338
04-21-2010, 13:07
Can anyone tell me just how full a case can be before it becomes a danger? This data is straight from Speer, so it should be alright, but it sure looks scary. At the range, the 8.1 shot just fine... a little more recoil than I thought the bullet speed warranted, but accurate and no pressure signs on the empty cases.
A compressed load unto itself is not a dangerous situation as long as the powder is slow enough. I doubt you could compress AA#9 or BD enough to have pressure issues. My 124gr+P load using Unique is slightly compressed & safe in the guns I have run it in. Now compressing powders that are any faster would start to raise pressures quickly.

dougader
04-21-2010, 13:38
I'll pick up a pound of 3N37 next time I'm at the reloading store. The starting powder charge for that is 5.7 gr, versus 8.1 on the AA#7. That might help me justify spending $29/pound, compared to the #7, which goes for around $17 here.


3N37 is a good powder, and I have about 8.5 pounds of it left from a bulk purchase, but for the price difference now I'd opt for something like Fred's Unique, Ramshot Silhouette or Power Pistol.

Colorado4Wheel
04-21-2010, 13:47
Take a look at Power Pistol for loading economy and power. It uses a very small charge (relatively speaking), it has a high amount of case volume/density and mimics AA#7 in performance. Just a lot more flash if shot inside.

Carlitos
04-21-2010, 14:03
As Monster pointed out, many shooters regularly load 9mm with 124s to FASTER than 1330 FPS and they shoot a LOT of such ammo - some even use Glocks, though a stronger recoil spring & new brass at a minimum is required.


Fact is, we used to load the 9mm with 124s to faster than 1411 fps until they lowered the speeds. So 1200+ is easily and safely done - especially if you have 3n37 or another modern safe V V powder towards the slow end (N350 comes to mind) or slower burning powder.

Max OAL for Glock tends to ba around 1.160"

Colorado4Wheel
04-21-2010, 14:50
I just noticed you want 1220fps. Don't use Power Pistol unless you find reliable load data to support your goal. Your nearly wanting to make Major. Thats not really a load for Power Pistol.

BBJones
04-21-2010, 15:25
Unique should get you close.
Blue Dot should get you there and then some.

I haven't started working up a SD load. I may never do it, but I would start with Unique and move onto BlueDot, if Unique didn't get me the performance I wanted.

Do GD's work well at those velocities? I have it stuck in the back of my mind that there could be overexpansion at high velocites with GD's (could be another bullet that I am confusing).
Can anyone point me to a reference of what self defense bullets do well at what velocities?

PCJim
04-21-2010, 15:31
Can anyone point me to a reference of what self defense bullets do well at what velocities?

BB, don't take this the wrong way - just trying to be helpful. You'll get more attention to your question if you ask it in a new thread.

fredj338
04-21-2010, 16:27
Unique should get you close.
Blue Dot should get you there and then some.

I haven't started working up a SD load. I may never do it, but I would start with Unique and move onto BlueDot, if Unique didn't get me the performance I wanted.

Do GD's work well at those velocities? I have it stuck in the back of my mind that there could be overexpansion at high velocites with GD's (could be another bullet that I am confusing).
Can anyone point me to a reference of what self defense bullets do well at what velocities?

In my own test w/ 124grGD at 357sig vel, nothing ius gained by pushing them any faster. The petals fold down along the shank w/ higher vel impact.

bigleaf
04-21-2010, 16:33
BB, Tests I've seen in gel and home made newspaper tests like those on YouTube show the Gold Dots from factory loads (the factory +P from Speer leaves a 4"barrel at 1230 fps, per their site) expand like a picture. The somewhat slower regular factory loads, too... they look like perfect (if deadly) flowers. So, I would hazard a guess that the GDs would expand correctly at a pretty wide range of velocities.

And thanks, Carlitos, for that max OAL for the Glocks. I will head out to the powder shop and pick up some 3N37. And try to make it all the way up to 9 gr of the AA #7, too, now that I know just how long I can go.

BBJones
04-21-2010, 23:34
PCJim - Yah I should have. No offense taken.

fred - good to know. .357sig velocity is way more than I will ever attempt out of my 9mm. GD's sound like they will work for me. A near max load of Unique behind a GD sounds like it might be the plan (of course working up slowly).

bigleaf - thanks. Must have been another bullet that was velocity sensitive (or just something I imagined).

tlafrance
04-22-2010, 09:56
1923 fps? It doesn't matter what barrel it came out of, that's a pretty fast 9mm!!



Dyslexia owns me :embarassed:

1623 with the 124gr, 1750 with the 115gr

Still disappointed, wanted 2000fps out of that rifle. I was younger and looking for an edge in 3 gun competitions. 9mm rocks for cqb and out to 200yds, but for 300-350yd shots it's like shooting a mortar with the elevation needed. I gave up and moved on to .223 and .308 :supergrin:

Tom

GioaJack
04-22-2010, 10:01
Dyslexia owns me :embarassed:

Tom


It gets even worse as you get older... rustt em. :whistling:

Jack

jrf
03-26-2013, 11:52
Since this thread helped me (I know it's old) I wanted to add my data.

124 grn Speer GDHP
1.120 OAL
9.1 grn AA#7

Out of 4.48" G17
AVG 1288
Out of 4.6" CZ85b
AVG 1290

Just off the chrono today.
Extreme spread for both was about 30fps

dougader
04-07-2013, 19:49
That's pretty good performance. I get right at 1225 fps with a Win. 115 grain jhp over 9.6 grains AA7 fired in a G19 and an Ingles Hi Power.

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