Armed Robbery: What to do? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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MTPD
04-08-2010, 08:01
This advice is for those who carry concealed legally and refuse to be victims.

(1) Plan ahead. Decide what you will do if confronted by an armed robber, memorize it, practice it, and if the situation ever comes up, ACT THE INSTANT THE OPPORTUNITY ARISES!

(2) Play "What if?" games in your mind. For example, when you walk into a 7/11 ask yourself what you would do "if" this or that happens.

(3) Bear in mind that during real life armed robberies there are almost always opportunities to take out the robber(s). They usually don't watch everyone all the time. Or they get distracted by something or other. When their attention is momentarily elsewhere, that's the time to ACT!

(4) Carry a 100% reliable and effective pistol (or two) loaded with effective ammo, and practice enough to be confident in your ability to prevail. Confidence breeds success.

(5) Ignore all the "Oh Lordy, please don't start a gunfight Matilda!" nonsense you see on the net. In my police experience, hardly anyone hit by surprise with a powerful COM upper torso JHP is able to shoot back. If they can't shoot back, there is no "gunfight".

(6) Never ever follow orders to lie on the floor face down, or to go into a back room. Your survival probability drops considerably in those situations.

TACC GLOCK
04-08-2010, 08:06
I agree, good post.

dgg9
04-08-2010, 08:36
(5) Ignore all the "please don't start a gunfight" nonsense you see on the net. In my police experience, hardly anyone hit by surprise with a powerful COM upper torso JHP is able to shoot back. If they can't shoot back, there is no "gunfight".

Ignore all the Rambo nonsense you see on the net, usually issued by wannabes with no vetted police experience.

The fallacy in the quoted post is obvious. The shot BG doesn't need to "shoot back," he just needs to be able to pull the trigger before dying. Handgun rounds notoriously don't instantly vaporize anyone. Don't conflate "accurate aimed return fire from the BG to you" with "gunfight." If the BG is squeezing off rounds, bystanders, clerks, or you could get shot.

That said, that doesn't means you don't shoot the BG. It means you THINK about the totality of the situation and assess what's the best course of action. Sometimes shoot, sometimes not.

David Armstrong
04-08-2010, 10:34
This advice is for those who carry concealed legally.
It is worth noting that, as usual, virtually all law enforcment agencies, security professionals, and other folks that actually know something about this stuff disagree with most of the advice posted.

PlayboyPenguin
04-08-2010, 10:45
I am going to have to side with those that stated the advice given in the OP is NOT good advice. In my small amount of police experience I noticed that the vast majority of armed robberies never resulted in anyone being shot. Shooting the first chance you get to act during such an encounter increases the odds of someone dying during the encounter. I would add that my experience is quite different regarding someone getting hit and firing back. I have seen someone manage to squeeze off rounds even after being hit on multiple occasions.

I am always a little bit torn regarding how to react to a robbery though. About the only thing I can say for certain is play it by ear and react to your specific situation. If it seems like giving them the money will cause them to leave without harming anyone d it. If they give you reason to believe they are going to harm someone anyway then fight back. The most important thing is to stay calm and react with forethought and planning.

MTPD
04-08-2010, 11:45
[QUOTE=PlayboyPenguin;15089174

...Shooting the first chance you get to act during such an encounter increases the odds of someone dying during the encounter....
.[/QUOTE]

Exactly! But instead of it being the helpless victim that dies, it will probably be the armed robber.

LittleRedToyota
04-08-2010, 12:28
whatever plan one comes up with, try it in force-on-force.

one might decide one needs to come up with a new plan.

(my plan is generally "give the guy my wallet and do not turn a robbery into something worse"*...though it is, of course, situationally dependent.)

(*note that when i say "something worse", i mean for me. i don't care if an armed robber gets hurt or killed as a result of his armed robbery. but i would rather lose my wallet and live than die/be seriously injured and then lose my wallet.)

PlayboyPenguin
04-08-2010, 12:34
Exactly! But instead of it being the helpless victim that dies, odds are that it will be the armed robber.

It comes down to this, who would you rather see die, the innocent victim or the vicious armed felon?

Being from the "Olde School of Police Work", I don't understand the modern cop mentality of not wanting anyone (including perps) to get hurt. In my day, dangerous armed felons were authorized targets and we didn't care if they lived or died. If they were lucky, we gave them a split-second to surrender. If they surrendered, fine. If they didn't, we dropped them. And contrary to Playboy's experience, none hit solidly was ever was able to fire back. (Not that it can't happen, but it never did in my experience.)

The people we did care about were the innocent victims we were expected to, and did, protect. Unlike some modern cops, like those in charge at Columbine who didn't even try to protect the innocent until after it was too late.
I do not see much validity in your statements. I do not think most cops care of a perp gets hurt. They do not want to see non-deadly encounters escalated to deadly ones. I do not see any evidence to support drawing on an armed person results in them dying more often than the person drawing second either.

dgg9
04-08-2010, 13:09
It comes down to this, who would you rather see die, the innocent victim or the vicious armed felon?

Except it doesn't come down to that. Once you start shooting, there's no guarantee who dies.

And contrary to Playboy's experience, none hit solidly was ever was able to fire back. (Not that it can't happen, but it never did in my experience.)

And of course your "experience" is unvetted, undocumented, unproven, and worth exactly nothing as evidence.

6F0 Nick
04-08-2010, 14:56
Being from the "Olde School of Police Work", I don't understand the modern cop mentality of not wanting anyone (including perps) to get hurt. In my day, dangerous armed felons were authorized targets and we didn't care if they lived or died. If they were lucky, we gave them a split-second to surrender. If they surrendered, fine. If they didn't, we dropped them. And contrary to Playboy's experience, none hit solidly was ever was able to fire back. (Not that it can't happen, but it never did in my experience.)

Is this you OP?
http://www.tvparty.com/spotpix12/shaft2.gif

poodleplumber
04-08-2010, 15:01
I'm not sure all of the OP advice needs to be discarded. Thinking about different scenarios in advance can certainly help your mind to work well in a stressful situation. And I doubt that many of us would disagree that being ordered to lay face down on the floor or go into a back room puts us at greater risk of being eliminated as witnesses, and therefore increases the danger level quite considerably and might be a cause to use lethal force.

But since most armed robberies do not end in gunfire, there are certainly a lot of situations that do not call for lethal force and can be allowed to play out. I teach my office staff that if there is an armed robbery, they are to give the robber anything they need to give them to get them out of the building without getting someone hurt. I can replace any goods and equipment that I have, and I can go back to work and earn more money, but my staff members are real people with family and friends and loved ones, and they alone, of all the things in my office, are irreplaceable. Initiating an exchange of gunfire in close quarters at a time when there is still a reasonable chance at ending the situation more safely is not consistent with my commitment to the safety and well being of my staff, or even of strangers.

MTPD
04-08-2010, 18:21
Bear in mind my advice isn't for sheeple.

dgg9
04-08-2010, 18:37
Unvetted Dgg? Evidently you missed some previous threads where my police credentials were confirmed.

Nice bait and switch. Yes, surprisingly, someone vouched that you were in some PD at one time. But none of your claimed Walter Mitty exploits or factoids are vetted or documented. The fact that every one of your claims is rejected by virtually every known cop on this board speaks volumes.

PhoneCop
04-08-2010, 20:50
I really got nothing to say on this tired subject, instead I just wanted to see my new avatar.

btmj
04-08-2010, 23:07
I am not a cop. But I know cops, in my family, as friends etc.

If MTPD is a cop, he sure does not talk like any LEO I ever knew... Not saying he is or isn't, but no LEO I ever knew would say things like:

"In my day, dangerous armed felons were authorized targets and we didn't care if they lived or died. If they were lucky, we gave them a split-second to surrender. If they surrendered, fine. If they didn't, we dropped them."

Even the "old school" cops I know, long retired, do not use language like that.

Chieftain
04-08-2010, 23:37
MTPD,

If you are in fact on duty, with that present state of mind, you need to be relieved, NOW! Mostly for your own good, but for the agency and Jurisdiction you work for.

Please, to educate those of us that disagree with you, give us a valid reference supporting your point of view and why this would be the preferred tactics in this sort of situation.

I have rather extensive combat experience. If all I needed to stop a VCA from a violent act was a pistol shot to COM, why do we use rifles and shotguns? I don't trust any handgun, and frankly, many rifles to stop anyone short of a solid CNS hit. And so do every one of the terminal Ballistic researchers I know and know of. That includes the FBI.

Go figure.

Fred

wprebeck
04-09-2010, 01:07
Re: MTPD -

One of our regular officers in Coptalk has a quote from MTPD as a sig line; it's "advice" similar to the above, and mentions something about when going hands-on with a subject, the officer should drop the magazine from his gun, and rely on a backup piece.


If that's how that did it in the old days, then it's amazing ANY officers survived to make it to retirement. I'm fairly sure folks like Dragoon, Seanmac, and Blueiron weren't taught/didn't teach weapon retention in such a fashion. I know I haven't been taught anything remotely resembling such idiocy, and if I were, I'd ignore it and likely wouldn't participate in such jackassery.

Oh, and MTPD -

I've seen scars on inmates who've taken multiple hits on center mass from handguns; one that stands out took some .44 Magnum rounds in his torso. I'm fairly sure that, since he was breathing and talking to me, he survived. Pistol calibers aren't the best for stopping folks who are seriously dedicated to trying to kill you.

For those who don't know MTPD - he puts out some very....out there...advice.

MTPD
04-09-2010, 07:40
OK, I give up. Go ahead and do like the modern-day so-called "experts" here suggest and meekly hand over your wallet, your wife, your kids and your manhood to any slime-ball with a gun.

dgg9
04-09-2010, 08:05
......and the mamsy-pamsy media certainly won't like that!

Unlike the 70s cop shows, which is the only media that informs you.

beatcop
04-09-2010, 08:16
OK, I give up. Go ahead and do like the modern-day so-called "experts" here suggest and meekly hand over your wallet, your wife, your kids and your manhood to any slime-ball with a gun. Then submissively curl up on the floor in the forlorn hope you and yours won't be executed, and cry for your mama! It won't bother me a bit if you do, and David, Dgg, et al, will love you for it.

Above all, if you do somehow scrape up the courage to resist armed felons, please don't shoot first, fast and accurate like I advise. If you do, you just might drop the BG......and the mamsy-pamsy media certainly won't like that!

I don't think anyone is saying to just surrender in every circumstance, but to use your head. This stuff is so situational that a "kill, kill, kill!" response isn't the best course of action in every scenario....you can't teach every scenario, so why pretend there's only one answer and everyone else is an idiot.

Like I've said before, it's not always "Can I shoot?" it's "Do I have to shoot?". If you are/were a cop in a town with some population density you probably saw a few things and had a couple experiences which could have gotten ugly...you'd also realize what motivates a crook to commit armed robberies. They like the money!!! It enables their addictions...if all they want is to grab a couple bucks and run, why inject yourself into the mix? I'm talking about a citizen, not a cop.

Is a pack of Newports and $40 bucks worth getting killed over?


(5) Ignore all the "Oh Lordy, please don't start a gunfight Matilda!" nonsense you see on the net. In my police experience, hardly anyone hit by surprise with a powerful COM upper torso JHP is able to shoot back. If they can't shoot back, there is no "gunfight


The obvious: CNS=DRT, heart=dead in a minute

Dead men kill...go google up the north hollywood BOA robbery or Platt and Mattix.

I've seen a lot of walking wounded...crook on crook shootings, granted a lot were with substandard handguns and ammo, but it's an indicator of combat accuracy. For every guy that was laying down, 10 were running/walking. Don't fool yourself into thinking you can keep your **** wired tight or that some fool who doesn't practice/has never aimed a weapon at a living person is going to turn into a gunfighter....

MTPD
04-09-2010, 08:21
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

beatcop
04-09-2010, 08:29
...I had the highest felony arrest record in the history of my high crime city PD.


Sir, if you're retired now, spill the beans...what city? There's no more need for opsec.

MTPD
04-09-2010, 08:51
This quote of yours is so silly that I can't believe you are a real cop.

Beat says: Is a pack of Newports and $40 bucks worth getting killed over?

Let me explain. It's not the loss of money or goods that justifies dropping armed robbers. It is the deadly threat they pose to you and yours by pointing a gun at you. And, unless you are a mind-reader, you can't possibly know before they pull the trigger if they are just after a payday, or if they intend to murderer you.

dgg9
04-09-2010, 08:56
In essence, I would much rather rely on me and my pistola for survival, than on dumb luck.

In essence, the fact that you are incapable of realizing that once you start the bullets flying, you ARE relying on a fair amount of dumb luck makes it hard to believe you were ever a cop.

If you choose to watch and wait while a 7/11 robbery is happening, there's a chance that bystanders / the clerk / you get shot.

If you choose to start shooting, there's a chance that bystanders / the clerk / you get shot.

Neither route carries any guarantees.

volsbear
04-09-2010, 09:04
Ahhhhhhhhh another gem from MTPD.

Tagged while I grab some popcorn.

beatcop
04-09-2010, 09:05
This quote of yours is so silly that I can't believe you are a real cop.

:whistling: Sorry to derail the thread, but If I said I was a retired NYC cop (which I am not), what's the issue? 50k cops on board now, how many retired over 20 yrs? C'mon if you have the training and experience, lay it out there...otherwise we can just get back to our "opinion" based posts.

Me: FTO, Firearms Instructor, less-lethal shotgun instructor, "shooting decisions" certified...have done small city "urban" policing

MTPD? The Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (Metro) Transit Police Department (MTPD)????

Beat says: Is a pack of Newports and $40 bucks worth getting killed over?

Let me explain, since you don't seem to get it. It's not the loss of money or goods that justifies dropping armed robbers. It is the deadly threat they pose to you by pointing a gun at you. And, unless you are a mind-reader, you can't possibly know before they pull the trigger if they are just after a payday, or if they really intend to murderer you. That's why I advocate dropping evey armed robber at the first opportunity.

In essence, I would much rather rely on me and my pistola for survival, than on dumb luck.

Like I said, this stuff is too subjective...

Yup, I agree, if it looks like someone is going to get killed, I'll intervene. However, if a crook does a "grab and go" who cares? If you're not sworn, why expose yourself to the risk?

rwillis
04-09-2010, 09:20
I like MPTD's advice, that being said i do understand sometimes you shoot and sometimes u don't. It all depends on what is going on around you.

Thank you MPTD for speaking your mind.

beatcop
04-09-2010, 09:22
Since I have a minute to kill...sorry if this is too obvious for the S&T reader.

(1) Plan ahead. Decide what you will do if confronted by an armed robber, memorize it, practice it, and if the situation ever comes up, ACT THE INSTANT THE OPPORTUNITY ARISES!

The .mil calls them battle drills. They allow you to "react" instead of going through all stages of the ooda loop.


2) Play "What if?" games in your mind. For example, when you walk into a 7/11ask yourself what you would do "if" this or that happens.

Great idea...see above. Only one problem, if you have no idea what an appropriate reaction or a reality based scenario is, what's the point?


(3) Bear in mind that during real life armed robberies there are almost always opportunities to take out the robber(s). They usually don't watch everyone all the time. Or they get distracted by something or other. When their attention is momentarily elsewhere, that's the time to ACT!

We can debate the idea of shooting a robber in the back and usually conclude it's usually a GO, but you better be damn sure of what you're doing and have a full awareness of legal and tactical ramifications. There are a ton of other factors that some will observe (type of weapons, number of robbers, their MO, cover/concealment, backup) and there are some things that may be "perceived" (your skill level, the crooks apparent calmness/skill, the liklihood of success). Some will say to look out for your own safety and avoid initiating a gunfight if one isn't "likely" to occur without your intervention.


(4) Carry a 100% reliable and effective pistol (or two) loaded with effective ammo, and practice enough to be confident in your ability to prevail. Confidence breeds success.

Agreed.


(5) Ignore all the "Oh Lordy, please don't start a gunfight Matilda!" nonsense you see on the net. In my police experience, hardly anyone hit by surprise with a powerful COM upper torso JHP is able to shoot back. If they can't shoot back, there is no "gunfight".

See my previous posts...dead people can kill.


(6) Never ever follow orders to lie on the floor face down, or to go into a back room. Your survival probability drops considerably in those situations.

Very situational, but I would say that you are on to something here...this has been debated in other posts at length.

PlayboyPenguin
04-09-2010, 11:05
OK, I give up. Go ahead and do like the modern-day so-called "experts" here suggest and meekly hand over your wallet, your wife, your kids and your manhood to any slime-ball with a gun. Then submissively curl up on the floor in the forlorn hope you and yours won't be executed, and cry for your mama! It won't bother me a bit if you do, and David, Dgg, et al, will love you for it.

Above all, if you do somehow scrape up the courage to resist armed felons, please don't shoot first, fast and accurate like I advise. If you do, you just might drop the BG......and the mamsy-pamsy media certainly won't like that!

Okay, I was being polite before, but now I ham inclined to believe you are NOT a police officer. I do not care how many screennames you have and how many of them you use to back up your own tales. No police officer would ever equate being robbed to "turning over your manhood." That makes me believe that you are definitely not a retired LEO. In fact I doubt you are of legal age to even hold a job yet. That post shows a level of immaturity beyond any I have ever seen from even the worst LEO.

cpelliott
04-09-2010, 11:22
Doing some basic statistics on robberies and murders committed during robberies, it would seem that a murder is committed in about 1 in 500 robberies. If it is a simple robbery (no shots fired, they're not trying to get you in a back room), you are far more likely to live if you don't draw your weapon. If you draw, your odds are far worse than 1 in 500. Live for another day, go home and post a macho story on glocktalk.

beatcop
04-09-2010, 13:23
Okay, I was being polite before, but now I am inclined to believe you are NOT a police officer.

"What color is the boathouse at hereford?"


.....pin-drop

dgg9
04-09-2010, 13:27
"What color is the boathouse at hereford?"


.....pin-drop

To me, it kind of doesn't matter if someone was a real LEO or a LE poseur if you can't tell the difference. MTPD fails what I call the "Internet LE imposter Turing Test," namely:

Is this person's posts about police work and firearms advice indistinguishable from the same advice given by a 15 year old whose entire knowledge base about guns and crime comes exclusively from bad 1970s cop shows?

beatcop
04-09-2010, 13:40
Armed robbery survival by "Vinny"...8:28 minutes...give it a chance he'll grow on you.....:whistling:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9he1cpp4pw

David Armstrong
04-09-2010, 13:51
from mtpd:
It comes down to this, who would you rather see die, the innocent victim or the vicious armed felon?
Being from the "Olde School of Police Work", I don't understand the modern cop mentality of not wanting anyone (including perps) to get hurt.
Actually, there are many other options beside the "it comes down to this" choice you suggest. And being a fairly old school cop myself, I wish to assure those reading this that most old cops then, just as now, do have concerns about people getting hurt and wanted to minimize that.

from btmj:
If MTPD is a cop, he sure does not talk like any LEO I ever knew
While it does seem that he wore a badge at one time, most LEOs tend to disagree with just about everything he suggests regarding how police did things, or how LE or non-LE these days should do things. As I have phrased it, he may have worn a badge but it is obvious he never was really a cop.

David Armstrong
04-09-2010, 13:54
from mtpd:
OK, I give up. Go ahead and do like the modern-day so-called "experts" here suggest and meekly hand over your wallet, your wife, your kids and your manhood to any slime-ball with a gun. Then submissively curl up on the floor in the forlorn hope you and yours won't be executed, and cry for your mama! It won't bother me a bit if you do, and David, Dgg, et al, will love you for it.
Perhaps you could find anywhere that any of the folks here have suggested doing that? Oh wait, never mind...you can't find it because YOU MADE IT UP!! (like so many other things you post!)

At least one of the "experts" you apparently esteem was shot on the job, and I wasn't, even though I had the highest felony arrest record in the history of my high crime city PD. Now, I wonder why he was and I wasn't, if my advice is so bad and his so good?
Probably because he has a verified record of actaully making arrests and being in gunfights, while you have made lots of claims about it but haven't been able to convince a single known real officer here that you did ever made an arrest or pulled your gun out for anything besides cleaning it.

btmj
04-09-2010, 14:07
During the Battle of Normandy (June-July 1944) the allied forces fielded 1.3 million men, and suffered 120,000 casualties.

Raise your hand if you think that the ones who survived were the better gunfighters, and the ones who died were killed because they failed to deliver a "powerful COM upper torso" hit to their enemies. This is the MTPD theory of combat.

Or do you instead believe that with all those bullets, bombs, and shells flying around, it was mostly luck that determined who made and who didn't. This is the DGG9 theory of combat.

Hint: read some history. All the guys who were there believe it was luck, not skill, that allowed them to survive.

dgg9
04-09-2010, 14:21
Or do you instead believe that with all those bullets, bombs, and shells flying around, it was mostly luck that determined who made and who didn't. This is the DGG9 theory of combat.

I won't say "mostly" luck for all gunfights. But a "fair amount" of luck is definitely involved, even at the one on one level. There's skill too, but luck sometimes trumps skill.

ETA: but, to pursue your analogy: once you escalate (for example) a convenience store robbery into a gunfight, then for the BYSTANDERS, it's all about luck, like the Battle of Normandy.

brausso
04-09-2010, 14:38
(6) Never ever follow orders to lie on the floor face down, or to go into a back room. Your survival probability drops considerably in those situations.

I don't get this. If someone is pointing a gun your head and they tell you to lie face down, why the F would you not do it? Why wouldn't they shoot you dead right there for not complying. To me, if you do what they tell you, you are more likely to be out of sight, out of mind because they know you followed their demands. You pull out the tough guy stuff, they're going to keep an eye on you or just shoot you to eliminate the threat. Lie down and as the BG attends to others or doing the actual robbery, then maybe pull your gun and shoot the bastard. I don't think I could look down a barrel and say no.

I am not LE or claim to know a lot about these situations, but to me, the number one thing is to blend in and adapt, then if possible, make a move.

Just my .02

beatcop
04-09-2010, 14:53
I don't get this. If someone is pointing a gun your head and they tell you to lie face down, why the F would you not do it? Why wouldn't they shoot you dead right there for not complying. To me, if you do what they tell you, you are more likely to be out of sight, out of mind because they know you followed their demands. You pull out the tough guy stuff, they're going to keep an eye on you or just shoot you to eliminate the threat. Lie down and as the BG attends to others or doing the actual robbery, then maybe pull your gun and shoot the bastard. I don't think I could look down a barrel and say no.

I am not LE or claim to know a lot about these situations, but to me, the number one thing is to blend in and adapt, then if possible, make a move.

Just my .02

When this scenario is brought up it used to refer to the McDonalds shootings where they herded the staff into the walk-in fridge and popped then quietly. So, if it's one on one you're probably right...however, if they are "herding" the flock somewhere it could mean executions....or not.

On the floor:
-because it's easier to hit the back of someone's head than a moving target
-if the bad guy is planning on shooting a group....it's easier
-less stressful executing people who aren't looking
-won't get disarmed/rushed by victim
-passerby's won't see customers with hands up in the air and call LE
-one crook can guard and see a lot of people
-clear shot at people entering or running from the store
etc, etc....because they saw it in a movie?

brausso
04-09-2010, 15:05
When this scenario is brought up it used to refer to the McDonalds shootings where they herded the staff into the walk-in fridge and popped then quietly. So, if it's one on one you're probably right...however, if they are "herding" the flock somewhere it could mean executions....or not.

On the floor:
-because it's easier to hit the back of someone's head than a moving target
-if the bad guy is planning on shooting a group....it's easier
-less stressful executing people who aren't looking
-won't get disarmed/rushed by victim
-passerby's won't see customers with hands up in the air and call LE
-one crook can guard and see a lot of people
-clear shot at people entering or running from the store
etc, etc....because they saw it in a movie?

Some of that makes sense, but then what, when they've (maybe one BG, maybe 2 or 3) got a gun pointed at your head and tell you to lie face down and you say no? That seems like a lose/lose situation to me. It just seems like to me, if you obliged to their demands, you will have that split second opportunity to make a move if necessary.

If BG says, head to the back room and you say NO...boom dead! How does that work in your favor? If you're concealing a weapon at the time, IMO you are more likely to get an opportunity to take out the BG the more you blend in and don't draw attention.

brausso
04-09-2010, 15:12
BTW, at 7/11, I'm most likely going to be in the back in the beer section anyway, so hopefully that will give me enough time to react accordingly :beer:

dgg9
04-09-2010, 15:17
Some of that makes sense, but then what, when they've (maybe one BG, maybe 2 or 3) got a gun pointed at your head and tell you to lie face down and you say no? That seems like a lose/lose situation to me.

Well, it is. At that point, you're fairly well screwed. In this, as in all situations, you have to weigh action vs compliance.

The evidence indicates that a lot of the time, compliance ends up better: say, you're a bystander at the 7/11 holdup, the BG not really paying attention to you. Then the best result might be to let it happen and be a witness. Escalating the robbery by shooting at the BG probably increases the chance an innocent gets shot.

But there are times to escalate, even in the face of bad odds. If the BG wants to tie your hands, for example, or put you in the trunk of a car, I personally would escalate, even though the odds are poor -- because I believe the odds are poorer in this case for compliance.

K. Foster
04-09-2010, 15:23
I do not see much validity in your statements. I do not think most cops care of a perp gets hurt. They do not want to see non-deadly encounters escalated to deadly ones. I do not see any evidence to support drawing on an armed person results in them dying more often than the person drawing second either.

Well said. Especially the first sentance.

degoodman
04-09-2010, 16:44
Yet another thread that begins with a felony crime in progress of some livery, with the usual responses that unless you immediately present your firearm and empty it into one or all of the BG's you're a ******, pu$$y, sheep or unfit to carry a concealed weapon in public, or you're as good as dead right on the spot.

That's just not the way it is.

Lets state up front that you may in fact have to shoot. The situation may devolve to the point that the only choice is to engage the adversary with gunfire until one or all of you are dead. Yes, this is a possible outcome, and its the reason most of us carry a gun. But there is so much ground to cover between being involved in a crime and progress and executing a lethal force response that its impossible to cover them in tens of pages of narrative for a single incident, let alone a generalization presented in a single paragraph that ends with "now what do you do".

A crime in progress that may end with a use of force or lethal force doesn't occur in an instant. They evolve over seconds and minutes. There is the period of time before the actual events occur, that could be the years spent on the range honing skills and tactics to prepare your response, or it could be while you're handing cash to the clerk as you glance outside and notice a few people casually getting out of a car, and they're wearing coats and ski-masks, and its July. That impacts your actions and the responses available to you.

Once things actually start happening, the situation is necessarily dynamic and ever changing. There will be moments of opportunity that you have to act where you can seize a momentary advantage to launch a response, whether that's to draw a firearm and engage, or slip out the emergency exit, or hit send on your cell phone. as quickly as those moments present themselves, they can evaporate just as quickly. the one you just passed on or weren't aware of may be the last one you get in that incident, or it may lead to an even better chance to act in the next second.

Should you choose to act, your justification for doing so, and what you are justified to do will also change and evolve by the second. The elements of justification for a shooting are not permenant, and what may in fact be a perfectly justifiable use of force in one moment, may be a criminal act on your part just a moment later depending on what has transpired.

These scenarios as presented are also always too vague. Justification to act always hinges on the minutae. Minutae that following an incident just a few seconds or minutes in duration will take an individual or officer DAYS just to get on paper in interviews with investigators, depositions, and sessions of testimomy, and then more hours and days answering questions that arise as others look at the situation.

Of course the internet commandos always live to fill in the blanks left in the initial scenario with "what ifs" that must force the decision to shoot right then and there, and if you don't, yadda yadda yadda.

I like to consider myself a rational responder. My default position is not that I shoot anytime I see a crime in progress. In all honesty its probably to not shoot even when I might be justified in doing so. The decision on whether to engage a BG is rooted in the things that I observe that don't fit in a one paragraph scenario, 95% of which has already transpired, and which included actions taken by the individual setting the stage for me that I would have done very differently from the get go.

That doesn't mean that I won't shoot. I might have to. But I don't see the world as one where my only choices are dying proned out on the floor or shooting my way to victory. There are oh so many other things that can happen, with varying degrees of positive and negative in those outcomes. There are infiniely many decision points where I can make a choice that alters the landscape of the scenario, for the better or for the worse. I can do everything right and still die, or I can do everything wrong and still live.

We can and should discuss and disect these incidents. Discussing real incidents is even better. But you're missing the real value of the dissection if all you're looking at is whether or not you should shoot. The decision to engage in lethal force is the last link in the chain so to speak.

The real point here is to dissect the situation leading up to the decision to shoot, not putting on the internet bravado and saying "bla bla bla, I already said everything that needs said, shoot or don't shoot". Or discussing how if the decision is made to engage at a certain point, what tactics you can deploy at that moment to mazimze your chances of succes, while minimizing the risk to yourself or others.

Maybe then we'll gain some value from the scenario discussions. Until then, this crap is getting boring. Get yourself a copy of the first person shooter of your choice, and shoot it out to your hearts content. Just notice how no matter how good you are, that health meter keeps taking hits, and remind yourself that in real life there is no med-kit that restores the meter to 100%, and there are no save points and do-overs.

beatcop
04-09-2010, 17:36
^ Well said...I wasn't willing to devote that much typing to the standard nonsense here.

volsbear
04-09-2010, 18:30
While it does seem that he wore a badge at one time,

My kid's worn a badge too. He's 3. And I'm betting his came from the same little type of costume set as the OP's did.

MTPD
04-09-2010, 18:46
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

volsbear
04-09-2010, 18:49
Morons live to be 90, man. That hardly proves your point - though you're here, so...

So now you're MENSA worthy? We'll add that to the list of B.S. you've stacked up around here.

beatcop
04-09-2010, 18:55
C'mon if you have the training and experience, lay it out there...otherwise we can just get back to our "opinion" based posts.

Second call.....

Because if you hit the BG COM in the upper torso by surprise there isn't much chance of a gunfight.

I don't think surprise will generally be on our side....but that's just my .02

David Armstrong
04-09-2010, 23:20
from mtpd:
I keep hearing the, "Oh, please don't start a gunfight" nonsense over and over. How come?
Because it has been shown to be one of the most effective ways of getting through a situation with minimal loss of resources, which is why so many police departments, security professionals, researchers, and so on suggest it as a preferred action, and recommend against the shoot-em-up fantasy.
I know those who have never actually "been there" don't understand this fact of life and death, but it's true nevertheless.
Of course, the basic problem with that is there are so many here and elsewhere that are vetted as BTDT disagree with you, and you have absolutely nothing to support your claims.
In fact, I have a MENSA level IQ ...
I think we can file that one with the other mtpd fantasies.

Brucev
04-10-2010, 06:32
Hum... it's Saturday morning. I'm enjoying my second mug of extremely good rich coffee. I've finally gotten to the end of this thread and I have decided that excuses to the contrary, most of it amounts to ACWOT ... you know... a complete waste of time. Obsess over what you might/will do in this or any other scenario. But if/when an incident occurs, whatever you do, you will have to live with the consequences of your choice(s). Try to think about how to choose wisely in haste. Because if/when it happens, there will be little time for careful thought. Afterward your every action and rational will be subjected to extremely careful review. JMHO. Sincerely. Brucev.

MTPD
04-10-2010, 07:47
I don't get this. If someone is pointing a gun your head and they tell you to lie face down, why the F would you not do it?...

Just my .02

Like I said way back, my advice is NOT FOR SHEEP, it's for those who refuse to be victims.

MTPD
04-10-2010, 08:30
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

PlayboyPenguin
04-10-2010, 11:38
David, you should know by now that I can prove everything I've ever said about my background, and this includes multiple Police Officer of the Year awards, 50+ letters of commendation and multiple shooting situations. Your repeated lies and insinuations to the contrary speak volumes about your lack of honesty, personal honor and integrity.

We never have agreed on much, but that's no reason to stoop to character asassination.
Just to be clear...how do you prove those things are yours? I could stand next to my grandfathers medals and claim I won them all. I could stand next to my dad's service commendations and claim they are mine. I could then create multiple screennames and back up my own story. Wan't there even a story not too long ago about a guy that claimed to be a USMC officer (he wore the uniforms to school reunions and on the internet, he had all the ribbons and medals, had fake papers, etc.) who turned out to have never served at all?

brausso
04-10-2010, 12:46
Like I said way back, my advice is NOT FOR SHEEP, it's for those who refuse to be victims.

I call BS. Refuse to be victim? what are you called after you say no and you take a bullet between your eyes???? A dead victim!

RussP
04-10-2010, 12:58
David, you should know by now that I can prove everything I've ever said about my background, and this includes multiple Police Officer of the Year awards, 50+ letters of commendation and multiple shooting situations. Your repeated lies and insinuations to the contrary speak volumes about your lack of honesty, personal honor and integrity.

We never have agreed on much, but that's no reason to stoop to character asassination.Prove it. Furnish a link to the records.

By the way, the couple of things you told me, they didn't check out.

beatcop
04-10-2010, 13:10
I looked at some of MTPD's old posts....at least he's consistent.
If the goal of this forum is to further the tactical awareness of good folks here, let's put the good advice up for debate and put the bad where it belongs.

I have seen a lot of "this is my opinion" posts, which have a place, but not too many "this was put out when I went to thunder ranch/police academy/blackwater posts.....

If you're going to claim expert/high level user/trainer/operative status, put out your creds so the rest of us know the advice comes from training and experience, not some video game!

You've been called out numerous times, post your creds!!!!

-sorry for the double tap RussP

RussP
04-10-2010, 13:47
...
-sorry for the double tap RussPBack-up is always appreciated... :thumbsup:

dgg9
04-10-2010, 18:04
David, you should know by now that I can prove everything I've ever said about my background, and this includes multiple Police Officer of the Year awards, 50+ letters of commendation and multiple shooting situations.

Really? Go ahead and prove it then. The most I ever saw on the other thread in question was that someone vouched that you once were on a PD (WPB, I think?), nothing more. The rest is clearly your Walter Mitty inventions.

Real BTDT types almost never brag and preen in public, as you do in every single post.

RussP
04-11-2010, 09:30
Wait, I forgot, the mob is still looking for him. He can't ID himself. They'll search all of CO and Southern TX until they find him.

David Armstrong
04-11-2010, 11:04
David, you should know by now that I can prove everything I've ever said about my background, and this includes multiple Police Officer of the Year awards, 50+ letters of commendation and multiple shooting situations. Your repeated lies and insinuations to the contrary speak volumes about your lack of honesty, personal honor and integrity.

We never have agreed on much, but that's no reason to stoop to character asassination.
Yes, let's be clear. Another officer has said that you were a police officer for a few years in a relatively small and quiet city. That is about it. No verification or support for your wild claims. In fact many of them have been shown to be completely false. I make no lies or insinuations, I make statements: virtually all the advice you have posted is contrary to what most LEOs advise, most of the tactics you advise are in direct conflict with most of the recognized experts and professionals in the field, and all of your claims regarding actual experiences, awards, and so on are completely unsupported. There is no need for character assassination on my part or anyone else, as you manage to shoot yourself in the foot just about every time you post on these types of issues.

dgg9
04-11-2010, 11:11
you manage to shoot yourself in the foot just about every time you post on these types of issues.

And he's consistent there too, since his advice is to "always shoot first."

MTPD
04-12-2010, 07:55
And for all those who wouldn't "shoot first" in a life/death situation, I hope you've got plenty of life insurance, because your kids and widows are going to need it.

dgg9
04-12-2010, 08:09
[B]Ahhhhhhhhhh, yes, if I was a street cop in a small quiet city, perhaps you can explain why, while I worked there, it was the #1 highest crime rate city in the USA in the 100,000 pop category, averaging 31 murders a year. (NOTE: Later it dropped to 6th due to the numbers being G-2'd by the PD.)

On the contrary, YOU explain it by specifying which city this was, what exact time period, and what precinct/area you worked in.

That will be the first step in verifying your baseless claims.

You need to either step up the plate and declare chapter and verse on this "highest crime rate city" or go away.

MTPD
04-12-2010, 08:24
Let me guess, you have zero street experience in dealing with armed felons, right? :faint:

dgg9
04-12-2010, 08:31
Let me guess, you have zero street experience in dealing with armed felons, right? :faint:

His documented track record is no less than your own.

MTPD
04-12-2010, 08:42
And he's consistent there too, since his advice is to "always shoot first."

Dgg, I know this is pretty complicated, but those who don't shoot first are often killed or wounded by those who do.

So tell me, dgg, are you advocating shooting second, or third, or fourth, or what??? :faint:

David Armstrong
04-12-2010, 09:02
So, David, you are way off base and ignorant of the facts, like always.

Actually, MTPD, like always you have tossed out a bunch of stuff without any evidence to support it other than your own claims, which have been found to regularly come up short. Hard to tell if I am ignorant of the facts or not as we have yet to see you offer anything that can be verified as facts.

....perhaps you can explain why, while I worked there, it was the #1 highest crime rate city in the USA in the 100,000 pop category, averaging 31 murders a year.
I might suggest that if there was a murder rate of 31 it might be because you weren't a very good LEO and didn't understand how professionals work to prevent crime? I mean, you are always talking about how you never could seem to get a handle on controlling crime wherever you worked.

dgg9
04-12-2010, 09:15
Dgg, I know this is pretty complicated, but those who don't shoot first are often killed or wounded by those who do.

..unless this is the vast majority of cases, where nobody shoots. Are you under the impression that in all robberies, someone always gets shot?

Or they're bystanders or clerks killed or wounded when an unnecessary shooting starts.

So tell me, dgg, are you advocating shooting second, or third, or fourth, or what??? :faint:

So tell me, MTPD, have you stopped beating your wife yet, or what?

I missed the part of your post where you identified this "highest crime rate city," and what years you were on that PD.

PlayboyPenguin
04-12-2010, 09:56
..unless this is the vast majority of cases, where nobody shoots. Are you under the impression that in all robberies, someone always gets shot?

Or they're bystanders or clerks killed or wounded when an unnecessary shooting starts.



So tell me, MTPD, have you stopped beating your wife yet, or what?

I missed the part of your post where you identified this "highest crime rate city," and what years you were on that PD.
I think the name of the city is "Vice City."

MTPD
04-12-2010, 10:14
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

dgg9
04-12-2010, 10:17
Dgg, you seem to be dodging the question I asked.

You've got gall to even mention dodged questions, I'll give you that.

Here's the question you've been dodging for years now:

Specify which city this was, what exact time period, and what precinct/area you worked in.

That will be the first step in verifying your baseless claims.

You need to either step up the plate and declare chapter and verse on this "highest crime rate city" or go away.

MTPD
04-12-2010, 10:36
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

volsbear
04-12-2010, 10:43
MTPD, why not just answer the question?

MTPD
04-12-2010, 10:45
You've got gall to even mention dodged questions, I'll give you that.

Here's the question you've been dodging for years now:

Specify which city this was, what exact time period, and what precinct/area you worked in.

That will be the first step in verifying your baseless claims.

You need to either step up the plate and declare chapter and verse on this "highest crime rate city" or go away.

My, my, that really bothers you, doesn't it? And what's your name, address, phone #, DOB, SS#, wife's name, and history of employment?

And yours too, VOLSBEAR & PLAYBOY.

dgg9
04-12-2010, 10:54
My, my, that really bothers you, doesn't it? And what's your name, address, phone #, DOB, SS#, wife's name, and history of employment?

If I were basing 100% of the validity of my arguments on my name, address, phone #, DOB, SS#, wife's name, and history of employment, then yes, I would expect to be asked to produce them.

However, none of my arguments is based on any of that.

100% -- every single bit -- of your arguments are based on your claimed "experiences," and anecdotes you claim to have first hand knowledge of. Not one other real cop agrees with you, nor do any actual expert sources line up with your bizarre positions.

Therefore since you set up your claimed experiences as the SOLE basis for all your positions, you need to document them.

MTPD
04-12-2010, 11:23
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

volsbear
04-12-2010, 11:26
MTPD, why not just answer the question?

dgg9
04-12-2010, 11:27
Sounds like a BS excuse to me!

Yes, it sure is BS that you base every molecule of your positions on your claimed experience, then won't back it up.

Isn't it a surprise that the person who keeps demanding that others post names, dates, places, etc., refuses to post them too!

Isn't it a surprise that MTPD is lying, since I don't "keep demanding that others post names, etc." YOU are the only person I've made that demand of, and the reason is that everyone else here is making a good faith effort to argue from the observed facts to a conclusion. You, alone, are refusing to provide any basis at all for your positions other than your claimed experience. So only YOU need to cough up documentation for those claimed experiences.

degoodman
04-12-2010, 12:00
Sounds like a BS excuse to me! Isn't it a surprise that the person who keeps demanding that others post names, dates, places, etc., refuses to post them too!:rofl::wavey::rofl:

Hey, why not make it easy on the guy.

I don't want your real name, DOB, or any other personally identifying information.

I'd be happy with the name of your Agency or Municipality, and the dates of service you're talking about. I don't even care about actual dates or months, starting year and ending year will be good enough.

At least that much information will allow us to get to a UCR or a blotter report or SOMETHING that validates that an incident occurred, all without compromising your precious anonymity.

Oh, and if you want my information, its a public record in the State of Ohio, with personally indetifying information redacted, available for review at the William Oxley Thompson Memorial Library, The Ohio State University, 1858 Neil Avenue Mall, Columbus, OH, 43210. Its also been published in the Columbus Dispatch, Cleveland Plain Dealer, Toledo Blade, Cincinnati Enquirer and other news outlets, related to both my employment and my concealed weapons permit status.

Put up or shut up.

brausso
04-12-2010, 12:27
You must be a graduate of one of David's sheeple-defense classes. :rofl:

You don't "just say no". You do like the under-cover officer did the other day and pretend like you are complying until you see a good opportunity to draw and shoot. Then you drop the BG. Get it? You don't "say" anything. You quietly and meekly shoot the BG COM, repeatedly if necessary.

Let me guess, you have zero street experience in dealing with armed felons, right? :faint:

Seriously??? Hey dip s*it, did you not read my other responses about blending in and not drawing attention and then waiting for the right opportunity to make a move. You basically just proved my point as to what should be done. Thank you!

Try reading people responses before you open your mouth like a know it all.

David Armstrong
04-12-2010, 12:43
...just can't stand the idea of others not being scared little sheep like they are in the face of danger.
Actually, it seems as if you are the one that is scared, not the others. Most folks say they aren't too scared, and don't see any need to go all Rambo. You, on the other hand, seem to be so afraid of the BG that you will just blindly panic and start shooting, even if there is no need.

Isn't it a surprise that the person who keeps demanding that others post names, dates, places, etc., refuses to post them too!
That's not true. I've certainly posted my name and plenty of other stuff. Why won't you??

MTPD
04-12-2010, 13:41
I give up!

MTPD
04-12-2010, 13:45
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Cody Jarrett
04-12-2010, 13:47
This is sound advice. It can also be found in the instructor's manual for "NRA Personal Protection Outside the Home."

volsbear
04-12-2010, 13:54
MTPD, why not just answer the question?

brausso
04-12-2010, 13:57
Well, here is your entire post that I replied to. Nothing in it but what I said. :upeyes:

I don't get this. If someone is pointing a gun your head and they tell you to lie face down, why the F would you not do it? Why wouldn't they shoot you dead right there for not complying. To me, if you do what they tell you, you are more likely to be out of sight, out of mind because they know you followed their demands. You pull out the tough guy stuff, they're going to keep an eye on you or just shoot you to eliminate the threat. Lie down and as the BG attends to others or doing the actual robbery, then maybe pull your gun and shoot the bastard. I don't think I could look down a barrel and say no.

I am not LE or claim to know a lot about these situations, but to me, the number one thing is to blend in and adapt, then if possible, make a move.

Just my .02

Really? Do you see this ^^^^^^^^ You must have had a :blondmoment:

MTPD
04-12-2010, 14:27
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

dgg9
04-12-2010, 14:33
David, I think the difference between us is that I have survived multiple near-death experiences involving armed felons, while I doubt you have. The only reason I survived several of these is because I either shot first, or got the drop on the BG's before they could draw. A few others dealing with some of these exact same felons (before and after me) were more like you, and ended up murdered due to their lack of caution.

No, the difference between you and everyone else on this thread is that you base everything you say on your undocumented "experiences," aka fantasies.

Why should anyone believe anything you say? Ultimately it all rests on your unproven claims, which have zero validity.

PlayboyPenguin
04-12-2010, 14:34
David, I think the difference between us is that I have survived multiple near-death experiences involving armed felons, while I doubt you have. The only reason I survived several of these is because I either shot first, or got the drop on the BG's before they could draw. A few others dealing with some of these exact same felons (before and after me) were more like you, and ended up murdered due to their lack of caution.

There were many other situations involving felons that didn't require shooting, however, they all required (in my opinion, and in fact) that the BG's to be taken down at gunpoint. Hundreds of them. Both to protect myself, other officers, and even the felons themselves.

Like I say, I worked with a lot of less aggressive cops like you. 4 of them were murdered on the job, and several others were seriously wounded, which proved to me that some felons are ready, willing and able to murder cops as well as civilians.......given the opportunity and submissive/passive/unready victims.

David, do whatever you want for yourself when confronted by armed felons, but please reconsider giving advice to others, since I consider your advice to be dangerous to the point of being suicidal. Why? Because if I had followed it in several real-life situations I would have been murdered decades ago.
OMG! I have tried to remain fairly neutral and humorous in my criticism up until this point...but that is the biggest pile of internet ninja BS I have ever read. That is top notch Rambo stuff right there.

I am now 100% convinced this is all a scam being pulled by some 15 year old. At the very best it is some fat forty year old washout that spent 8 months as a glorified crossing guard on some Montana hick town police force (along with one other officer and a chicken) trying to feel important in-between working his night security job and playing Grand Theft Auto in his mom's basement all day.

dgg9
04-12-2010, 14:35
do whatever you want for yourself when confronted by armed felons, but please reconsider giving advice to others, since I consider your advice to be dangerous to the point of being suicidal.

The irony meter just exploded.

degoodman
04-12-2010, 15:46
Like I say, I worked with a lot of less aggressive cops like you. 4 of them were murdered on the job, and others were seriously wounded, which proved to me that some felons are ready, willing and able to murder cops as well as civilians.......given the opportunity and submissive/passive/unready victims. On the other hand, not a single aggressive cop like me was killed or even wounded, because they were "ready" and totally dominated every dangerous situation they found themselves in.

Link me even one of their names please. They're dead, so there is no fear of retribution. ODMP would lend a shred of credibility to your statements.

I'm not holding my breath.

David Armstrong
04-12-2010, 16:12
David, I think the difference between us is that I have survived multiple near-death experiences involving armed felons, while I doubt you have. The only reason I survived several of these is because I either shot first, or got the drop on the BG's before they could draw.
Could be you are right, except for the fantasyland stuff. You see, in spite of a few gunfights in my time I never felt I was in a near-death experience with armed felons. I was trained and experienced enough that I was able to control the situations so that I was never near death, just the BGs. Perhaps that is why a simple robbery scares you so much, your history of incompetence leading to near-death experiences with common criminals? That would explain some of your hysteria.
Like I say, I worked with a lot of less aggressive cops like you.
If you know what you are doing, you don't have to be real aggressive.
4 of them were murdered on the job, and several others were seriously wounded, which proved to me that some felons are ready, willing and able to murder cops as well as civilians.......given the opportunity and submissive/passive/unready victims.
Once again we see your penchant for insulting officers. Very sad. Many officers are injured or even killed on the job and it has nothing to do with being submissive, passive, or unready.
David, do whatever you want for yourself when confronted by armed felons, but please reconsider giving advice to others, since I consider your advice to be dangerous to the point of being suicidal. Why? Because if I had followed it in several real-life situations I would have been murdered decades ago.
Please do not project your incompetence and inability to handle a situation without panic and deadly force onto others who are more skilled. As for my advice, strange how it agrees with the advice given by most LE, security specialists, researchers, etc. while the only one who agrees with you is..., well, you.
And let me clarify one other thing. I never even came close to panic in any armed confrontation,
Sure doesn't sound like it from all these stories you keep telling.

David Armstrong
04-12-2010, 16:15
some Montana hick town police force (along with one other officer and a chicken)
Darn, Penguin, you just described my dream job!:supergrin:

PlayboyPenguin
04-12-2010, 16:22
Darn, Penguin, you just described my dream job!:supergrin:

Did I mention that the chicken was the superior officer? :supergrin:

Side note: When I decided I did not wish to remain with the state police I almost took a job with a very small police force in rural WV. One of the job requirements, and I kid you not, was that you provided your own car and gun. :)

beatcop
04-12-2010, 19:21
This will be wearing a lock veeeery sooon!

I will just assume the guy is a yahoo, JV, or sackless and let it go.

Any real cop worth their salt could pony up some shred...any shred of evidence to corroburate their rep under the "grueling" examination he's undergone... ie academy class number, pic, proprietary knowledge...what's a knox box? scale house key? a bus? etoh? skid? intox 5000...did it use the fluid or the gas cylinder in your day? years per stripe? lti 20/20? What's your ORI?....anything...

When a crook continues to ignore, divert, & pretend they haven't heard something, there's usually more to the story.....so why should things be different here?

Dragoon44
04-12-2010, 21:48
Like I say, I worked with a lot of less aggressive cops like you. 4 of them were murdered on the job, and others were seriously wounded, which proved to me that some felons are ready, willing and able to murder cops as well as civilians.......given the opportunity and submissive/passive/unready victims.

So after 4 cops were murdered on the job you came to the conclusion that some felons were prepared to kill cops or civilians huh?

Well that settles it, you must be a MENSA candidate.

:rofl:

btmj
04-12-2010, 23:05
Do you ever wonder about the discussion forum trolls... I mean, after awhile, they all start to sound alike. Wouldn't it be funny if it was all the same manchild screwing around on all the various sites? :shocked:

I once had a run-in with an A-hole on a big-block chevy site... then later on a water skiing site. Another time on a wood-working site. Recently I came across an irritating piss-ant on a sport-fishing forum. And now glock talk. The little bastards are like ticks... I just can't get away from them.

There just can't be that many dip-wits who sound this much alike? can there? Or is it something in the make-up of internet trolls that causes them all to be so much alike.???

I dunno... It just doesn't seem possible for there to be so many infantile jackasses on the planet. I bet it is all the same guy.

MTPD
04-13-2010, 07:51
Once again we see your penchant for insulting officers. Very sad. Many officers are injured or even killed on the job and it has nothing to do with being submissive, passive, or unready.

.

You are correct about "many" officers not being at fault. However, "many others" died because of making mistakes or being "unready".

What I write about has never been intended as "insults" to dead officers, like you are wont to BS about. The truth is that what I write is intended to prevent similar deaths by explaing real-world reality with regard to self-defense against armed felons.

dgg9
04-13-2010, 07:55
Yes, you are correct about "many" officers not being at fault. However, "many others" died because of being "unready". Of the 4 I knew that were murdered on the job, 2 were killed with their own guns, 1 with a gun taken from another officer, and the 4h was murdered while sitting in his patrol car writing a report and not paying sufficient attention to an approaching felon.

....

For example, what the 4 dead officers all had in common was that, for whatever reason, they allowed the felons to get the first shots. After being hit, none of them were able to fight back in any way. That's reality. If you allow an armed felon to shoot first, you are probably going to die.


Again, why should anyone believe these stories?

You don't seem to be completely dense, so by now you must realize that absolutely nobody here believes a single word you say. These anecdotes you have ready at hand are suspiciously ..."convenient."

Show some evidence that these anecdotes actually happened, or go away.

MTPD
04-13-2010, 08:13
Again, why should anyone believe these stories?

You don't seem to be completely dense.

Dgg, sorry I can't say the same about you. :wavey:

MTPD
04-13-2010, 08:16
Bear in mind that my advice is for those who refuse to be victims. It's not for sheeple, like those issuing off-topic personal attacks instead of contributing something of value.

dgg9
04-13-2010, 08:17
why should anyone believe these stories?

:wavey:

So you were given a chance to establish credibility. That's a "no," then.

Thanks for playing!

dgg9
04-13-2010, 08:18
Bear in mind that my advice is for those who refuse to be victims. It's not for sheeple, like those issuing off-topic personal attacks instead of contributing something of value.

You have not contributed anything of value, because none of your claimed anecdotes is vetted.

MTPD
04-13-2010, 08:43
Dgg, plese detail your street experience. Seems like I remember you being a computer nerd in real life?

dgg9
04-13-2010, 09:01
Dgg, plese detail your street experience. Seems like I remember you being a computer nerd in real life?

Maybe you are dense after all, if you think every reader here in this thread has already forgotten that we've been through this tap dance before. I'm not the one inventing anecdotes left and right to support my position -- you are.

To repeat:

If I were basing 100% of the validity of my arguments on my name, address, phone #, DOB, SS#, wife's name, and history of employment, then yes, I would expect to be asked to produce them.

However, none of my arguments is based on any of that.

100% -- every single bit -- of your arguments are based on your claimed "experiences," and anecdotes you claim to have first hand knowledge of. Not one other real cop agrees with you, nor do any actual expert sources line up with your bizarre positions.

Therefore since you set up your claimed experiences as the SOLE basis for all your positions, you need to document them.

David Armstrong
04-13-2010, 09:32
However, "many others" died because of making mistakes or being "unready".
So your solution is to run around paranoid all the time, and start gunfights and kill folks needlessly because you are scared of them? Sorry, real cops don't work that way.
And, by the way, your intentional lies are why your honesty and integrity are in question.
Strange, it seems most of the questions about background, honesty and such here are being directed at you, not me. I'm fairly well vetted around here, AFAIK.
The above incidents are why I consider your advice, which is basically "don't shoot first and start a gunfight, just meekly submit and hope for the best", to be suicidal in many cases.
Of course the idea that is my advice is simply more of your fantasy, and a gross misrepresentation of what I suggest.

MTPD
04-13-2010, 10:50
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

steve2267
04-13-2010, 15:16
Dang, if I didn't know better... it's almost as if Gunkid escaped or won early release.

MTPD
04-14-2010, 07:18
Let me refresh everyone's memory:

This advice is for those who carry concealed legally and refuse to be victims.

(1) Plan ahead. Decide what you will do if confronted by an armed robber, memorize it, practice it, and if the situation ever comes up, ACT THE INSTANT THE OPPORTUNITY ARISES!

(2) Play "What if?" games in your mind. For example, when you walk into a 7/11 ask yourself what you would do "if" this or that happens.

(3) Bear in mind that during real life armed robberies there are almost always opportunities to take out the robber(s). They usually don't watch everyone all the time. Or they get distracted by something or other. When their attention is momentarily elsewhere, that's the time to ACT!

(4) Carry a 100% reliable and effective pistol (or two) loaded with effective ammo, and practice enough to be confident in your ability to prevail. Confidence breeds success.

(5) Ignore all the "Oh Lordy, please don't start a gunfight Matilda!" nonsense you see on the net. In my police experience, hardly anyone hit by surprise with a powerful COM upper torso JHP is able to shoot back. If they can't shoot back, there is no "gunfight".

(6) Never ever follow orders to lie on the floor face down, or to go into a back room. Your survival probability drops considerably in those situations.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Caveat: If you can't stay on topic, don't participate.

dgg9
04-14-2010, 09:33
Caveat: If you can't stay on topic, don't participate.

I completely agree.

And since 100% of your argument rests on your undocumented and unvetted anecdotes, why should anyone believe you? That's the only topic worth discussing when it comes to your advice.

Show some evidence that these anecdotes actually happened, or go away.

David Armstrong
04-14-2010, 09:59
Spoken like a true sheep, David!
If you think I'm a sheep it shows how out of touch with reality you really are.
Let me explain, the people committing armed robberies are not "FOLKS"! They are dangerous, potentionally homicidal, ARMED FELONS!
Yeah, they are folks. Just like millions of other folks out there. They are not alien monsters, and they react and respond in fairly pridectable human patterns for the most part. True psychopaths or sociopaths are fairly rare.
And I'm not scared of them, and never have been.
Sure doesn't sound that way, given the stories you keep telling.
You, on the other hand, are living in Fantasyland where you think armed robbers are just good "folks" with nothing in mind but love, kindness and charitible donations.
Once again we see the fantasy at work, as nowhere have I suggested anything like that. It is just more proof of how you make things up.
And carry a rabbit's foot instead of a gun. A pink one.
My daughter carries the pink gun (at least the grips are pink). Mine is stainless and black or all black, depending on my mood.
Ignore all the "Oh Lordy, please don't start a gunfight Matilda!" nonsense you see on the net.
interesting that your advice is to ignore the advice given by most LE agencies, security expeerts, and researchers. It appears that perhaps all those folks who actually have a proven record behind them might know something you do on.
In my police experience, hardly anyone hit by surprise with a powerful COM upper torso JHP is able to shoot back.
And just when are we going to get some proof of this claimed police experience??

steve2267
04-14-2010, 10:16
David,

Could you post (or PM me if you're not comfortable posting them) links or bibliographic citations for the studies to which you have been alluding? (I'm not interested in picking a fight, just reading the studies / articles.)

Whilst the number of incidents of armed robbery from which statistical observations can be drawn is quite high (I presume, as I am not personally aware of them), do these studies or articles differentiate between armed robberies where no armed citizens were present, vs. armed citizens were present but cooperated and/or were discovered to be armed?

While I realize each situation is unique, might I inquire your personal "trigger" or "triggers" that would prompt you to "go to guns" (so to speak) if you were present in a convenience store that was being robbed?

I understand your perspective that the statistical odds favor doing nothing... yet by doing nothing, you risk being "shepherded" into a situation wherein you may very lose your most important edge -- that of surprise should you decide you have no other choice than to engage.

--
Respectfully,
Steve

dgg9
04-14-2010, 10:27
While I realize each situation is unique, might I inquire your personal "trigger" or "triggers" that would prompt you to "go to guns" (so to speak) if you were present in a convenience store that was being robbed?

I understand your perspective that the statistical odds favor doing nothing... yet by doing nothing, you risk being "shepherded" into a situation wherein you may very lose your most important edge -- that of surprise should you decide you have no other choice than to engage.


I won't speak for DA, but degoodman made a most excellent post along these lines, which I selectively quote from:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10858693&postcount=35

There is a chance of getting hurt or killed in a simple robbery. An exceedingly small chance, but still a chance. In concrete numbers according to the FBI/DOJ, there were approximately 343,000 robberies. of the homicides that occurred only about 1100 occurred during a robbery. that places the odds of getting killed in a robbery attempt at about 1 in 343. Contrast that with your odds of taking injury or getting killed in a gunfight, which various sources place anywhere between 1 in 5 at the worst, and about 1 in 10 at best.

An intelligent person will look at that and note that the odds of a successful encounter, defined by concluding the situation uninjured and alive, are highest if he doesn't respond, unless prompted to by actions of the BG other than the fact he's comitting a robbery.

And that's the key here. Robbery may serve as the legal justification for a defensive shoot, but if you have a brain, it is not the primary trigger for that shoot to occur. Most robbers want property or money that they can obtain easily and quickly and then they want to leave. The ones that don't usually telegraph that things aren't going that way in ways that we can react to, greatly increasing the chances that we wil shoot only when we absolutely have to if we base our response on those clues.

Is the robber becoming increasingly agitated in the face of compliant victims? Is he gathering hostages or taking people to a secondary crime scene? Is he attempting to restrain the victims of his crime? Is he becoming target focused on a single individual or subset of the victims? Is he attempting to barricade himself in? Has he changed the ready state of his weapon by cocking it or deactivating a safety? It doesn't take but a split second to notice these clues and base your reactions on them. And that second could be the difference between the end result being a robbery where the victim store lost $1000 worth of cash and portable property, or a shootout that you started, that resulted in 1 dead BG and 2 dead and 3 seriously injured patrons, one of whom will never walk again, and one of the dead is you.

MTPD
04-14-2010, 10:34
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

steve2267
04-14-2010, 10:40
Thank you dgg9. I quite agree with everything written there.

The third paragraph you cited is key:

Is the robber becoming increasingly agitated in the face of compliant victims? Is he gathering hostages or taking people to a secondary crime scene? Is he attempting to restrain the victims of his crime? Is he becoming target focused on a single individual or subset of the victims? Is he attempting to barricade himself in? Has he changed the ready state of his weapon by cocking it or deactivating a safety? It doesn't take but a split second to notice these clues and base your reactions on them. And that second could be the difference between the end result being a robbery where the victim store lost $1000 worth of cash and portable property, or a shootout that you started, that resulted in 1 dead BG and 2 dead and 3 seriously injured patrons, one of whom will never walk again, and one of the dead is you.

And I am interested in further discussing these clues that strongly suggest or hint that a simple robbery is about to take a turn for the worse. Are there any studies / articles that discuss different hints or clues and how they skew the original very low odds of being hurt during a simple robbery when they (the hints or clues) are present?

That is, is it a shades of gray problem of continually interpreting hints/clues or is it a far simpler binary go/no go decision where if ANY of the following (list of hints / clues / observations follows) are observed, it is time to go to plan B (i.e. stop cooperating)?

dgg9
04-14-2010, 10:54
Are there any studies / articles that discuss different hints or clues and how they skew the original very low odds of being hurt during a simple robbery when they (the hints or clues) are present?


I'll let DA field that one. One problem with that is that there are relatively few convenience store robberies that turn into massacres / executions, and I'm guessing fewer still where you could recreate a reliable account of what happened.

I'll SWAG that I read about less than a dozen a year in Philly. Usually (purely based on what I read), the witness-execution massacres happened when the robber had some inside track -- used to work there, or girlfriend works there, or some other stupidity. I've read about store robbery executions that happen in bars right around closing -- if I had to guess, the BG was stupid enough to rob a bar where he'd be recognized. Or maybe there was a personal/reprisal element all along. And the cases you read about where they shoot the clerk tend (IIRC) to be where the clerk is all alone in the store.

dgg9
04-14-2010, 10:58
Obviously you never worked in a high crime environment like I did! I dealt with murdering, raping savages on a daily basis, and they damn sure wern't normal "folks" like everyone else. That you think so shows how totally out of touch with street reality you are.

This sort of willful denseness on your part is getting tiresome.

Yes, there certainly are murdering, raping savages in every city. That's not the point. The point is: is the average 7-11 holdup guy going to act, during commission of his robbery, like a murdering, raping savage? On the average, no.

dgg9
04-14-2010, 11:00
, my best police buddy and I still get together and talk over old times. He worked two tours as Capt. of Detectives (with 30+ detectives under his command), and three tours as Capt. of Patrol, (with 200+ officers under his command). He and I agree on almost everything, including shooting first in life/death situations, which he and I have both done.

So, when charged with inventing imaginary things that no real, vetted person agrees with -- you invent another nameless, imaginary person as witness?

Hint: adding yet another fictional shill does not validate your arguments.

MTPD
04-14-2010, 11:16
...I understand your perspective that the statistical odds favor doing nothing... yet by doing nothing, you risk being "shepherded" into a situation wherein you may very lose your most important edge -- that of surprise should you decide you have no other choice than to engage.

--
Respectfully,
Steve

Steve, one needs to understand that stats are absolutely meaningless when you are personally confronted by an armed robber. Why? Because your armed robber is a unique individual, and your robbery a unique event. That being the case, the stats can no more predict what will happen in a unique event (armed robbery), than they can predict the next two cards you will be dealt at a Blackjack table in Vagas.

Yes, stats can tell you what happened in a majority of similar situations in the past, but stats can't tell you what's going to happen to you in this one particular robbery today.

David Armstrong
04-14-2010, 12:22
Could you post (or PM me if you're not comfortable posting them) links or bibliographic citations for the studies to which you have been alluding? (I'm not interested in picking a fight, just reading the studies / articles.)
Here is some stuff to start with:
*******************
It is well-appreciated that gun-underwritten intimidation deters victim resistance and increases victim compliance and submission. That gun-armed robbers are less likely to inflict injury on their victims than unarmed robbers or robbers armed with other weapons is consistent with their preferring submission to inflicting injury.
--Lance K. Stell. 2004. “The Production of Criminal Violence in America: Is Strict Gun Control the Solution?” Journal of Law, Medicine and Ethics. Spring.

See also
Richard T. Wright and Scott H. Decker, “Armed Robbers in Action: Stickups and Street Culture.” 1997.

Jack Katz, “Seductions of Crime.” 1988

Jody Miller, “Up It Up: Gender and the Accomplishment of Street Robbery.” 1998.

All of the available evidence indicates that the most common reasons for the actual use of violence during a robbery are victims resisting, making sudden moves, or otherwise hindering the completion of the robbery.
--Rosemary J. Erickson and Arnie Stenseth. “Crimes of Convenience.” 1996


In reference to defense acts in violent crimes: 1/5 of victims who defended themselves with a firearm suffered an injury. 1/2 of those who defended themselves with weapons other than a firearm or who had no weapon were injured. Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1994.


Robberies in which the offender attacked without prior threat constituted only 36 percent of robberies, but caused 66% of all serious injuries. Robberies in which the offender did not immediately attack, even though a greater percentage of actual attacks (64% vs. 36%) saw a lower rate of injury and less severe injuries. Victims who defended themselves against offenders armed with guns were more likely to be injured than those who took no actions during the crime. Across all weapon types, the most dangerous actions for victims were attacking, threatening, or resisting the offender. Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1995.


Even though a weapon, most commonly a firearm, is used in 83% of all carjackings, injury to the victim is rare, with most victim not injured and only 4% suffering serious injury. Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1999.
*****************************************************
One can also look at things like the UCR, NCVS, and so on.

While I realize each situation is unique, might I inquire your personal "trigger" or "triggers" that would prompt you to "go to guns" (so to speak) if you were present in a convenience store that was being robbed?
I don't have personal triggers outside of "minimize the loss of resources for me and mine" cost/benefit analysis. What is the BG saying or doing? What are the dynamics involved? What has he already done, and how has he done it? Who else is there, and what are they doing? That is the problem with so many of these things, they are not static, they are constantly evolving. I like degoodman's phrasing of "Robbery may serve as the legal justification for a defensive shoot, but if you have a brain, it is not the primary trigger for that shoot to occur." You don't start a gunfight just because there is a robbery, but things that happen during the robbery may indicate a need to shoot.
I understand your perspective that the statistical odds favor doing nothing... yet by doing nothing, you risk being "shepherded" into a situation wherein you may very lose your most important edge -- that of surprise should you decide you have no other choice than to engage.
Complying is not doing nothing. That is the mistake so many make. Complying with the BG is a reasoned response to reduce the chance of loss and injury. It is definitely doing something. Given the odds that is the default position to take, and work from there. You can always increase the force, it is hard to take it back once you have used it. Sure there is a chance you will lose your only really good opportunity to shoot the BG. But you need to balance that with the chance that you won't need to shoot him at all, and that you might get a better chance later, the chance that if you shoot at him you may miss or the shot may be ineffective, the chance that you haven't identified all the players (does the BG have an accomplice standing right next to you that you don't know about?) and so on.

dgg9
04-14-2010, 12:22
Steve, one needs to understand that stats are absolutely meaningless when you are personally confronted by an armed robber. Why? Because your armed robber is a unique person, and your robbery a unique event. That being the case, the stats can no more predict what will happen to you in a unique event armed robbery, than they can predict the next two cards you will be dealt at a Blackjack table in Vagas. Which is why Vegas casinos encourage players to study stats!!! In fact, casinos are so sure that past stats are meaningless with regard to each new and unique turn of the wheel, that they even post running stats (the most recent winning numbers) at many roulette tables.

In other words, stats can tell you what happened in a majority of similar situations in the past, but stats can't tell you what's going to happen to you in this one particular robbery today.

That David relys on yesterdays meaningless statistical averages for what to when your unique armed robber shows up today, is witchery at best, fraud at worst.

Your post is gibberish at best, 100% wrong at worst.

David Armstrong
04-14-2010, 12:39
David, Your advice to others is "sheeple" advice, in my opinion.
your opinion i sduly noted. Also duly noted is that your opinion of what should be done is contradicted by most of LE, security specialists, and researchers on the subject, so it is hard to give much credence to your opinion.
Obviously you never worked in a high crime environment like I did!
Given your inability to prove any of your claims regarding your work environment, I have no idea if I worked in a high crime environment like you did, or if you ever worked in a high crime environment at all. Given your stories I am inclined to believe that you never worked an area with much crime. I can only respond based on the times I worked in high crime environments.
This is the same kind of undocumented broad generality ...
LOL!!! For you of all people to talk about "undocumented" is the apex of humour!
He and I agree on almost everything, including shooting first in life/death situations, which he and I have both done. All my other police buddies, retired and current, agree also.
Ah yes, more mystery guests..."These guys will support everything I say, but only if nobody knows who they are or where they worked and what they did."
So where are you getting your stats from? DisneyLand?.
no, I try to use verified sources, things like Uniform Crime Reports, NCVS data, scholarly publications, and so on. I would suggest you might try them yourself to learn what the actual facts are.

Mayhem like Me
04-14-2010, 13:03
MTPD,

If you are in fact on duty, with that present state of mind, you need to be relieved, NOW! Mostly for your own good, but for the agency and Jurisdiction you work for.

Please, to educate those of us that disagree with you, give us a valid reference supporting your point of view and why this would be the preferred tactics in this sort of situation.

I have rather extensive combat experience. If all I needed to stop a VCA from a violent act was a pistol shot to COM, why do we use rifles and shotguns? I don't trust any handgun, and frankly, many rifles to stop anyone short of a solid CNS hit. And so do every one of the terminal Ballistic researchers I know and know of. That includes the FBI.

Go figure.

Fred


he has not been in uniform in decades...

Mayhem like Me
04-14-2010, 13:16
This advice is for those who carry concealed legally and refuse to be victims.

(1) Plan ahead. Decide what you will do if confronted by an armed robber, memorize it, practice it, and if the situation ever comes up, ACT THE INSTANT THE OPPORTUNITY ARISES!

(2) Play "What if?" games in your mind. For example, when you walk into a 7/11 ask yourself what you would do "if" this or that happens.

(3) Bear in mind that during real life armed robberies there are almost always opportunities to take out the robber(s). They usually don't watch everyone all the time. Or they get distracted by something or other. When their attention is momentarily elsewhere, that's the time to ACT!

(4) Carry a 100% reliable and effective pistol (or two) loaded with effective ammo, and practice enough to be confident in your ability to prevail. Confidence breeds success.

(5) Ignore all the "Oh Lordy, please don't start a gunfight Matilda!" nonsense you see on the net. In my police experience, hardly anyone hit by surprise with a powerful COM upper torso JHP is able to shoot back. If they can't shoot back, there is no "gunfight".

(6) Never ever follow orders to lie on the floor face down, or to go into a back room. Your survival probability drops considerably in those situations.

The only thing I can agree with is 2, 4 and part of six....
I shot a guy through the Heart with an Mp5 and he was still able to squeeze a round off from a Remmington 1100 that is not a comfortable feeling.

The problem is that YOU will probably be suffering more from tunnel vision than the robber who has done three of these in that past week!

The words to live by are money and property are not worth it, your life or a loved ones are worth it. That is where the line is drawn IMHO

If I am in uniform or if the perp starts taking patrons wallets where my creds are, yup I will cause a distraction and it will be go time. that is NOT the TYPICAL stop and rob scenario.

MTPD
04-15-2010, 07:54
Perhaps cops and civilians have different perspectives?

Mayhem like Me
04-15-2010, 08:18
What difference does it make if you are in uniform or not? Armed robbers can kill you either way.

Another officer and I were in a shooting situation where the robber was shot through the chest (in and out), nicking the heart, and the BG was able to run about 20 yards before collapsing and dying. But this guy was hit with an old-days 38 special round, which was notoriously ineffective.

Were you using JHP's or FMJ 9mm's in your MP5, and where did the shot the BG fired go? Was it aimed, or just an unaimed reflex shot?

As for tunnel vision, I've always had it when in dangerous situations. However, I never thought of it as a handicap. Quite the contrary, 200% concentration on the target helps me shoot better. But as soon as the target drops, tunnel vision disappears and allows me to scan for more BG's. I'd hate to think what a shooting situation would be like without tunnel vision, without being able to concentrate completely on the target!!!



Tactically being in uniform makes a huge difference if you don't know why I can't explain it.

Tunnel vision is a huge handicap think MULTIPLE THREATS.

But what do I know I have only based my professional career on teaching cops in High risk situations how to WIN not just SURVIVE.
That is 27 years of consecutive full time Law Enforcement service 25 of that training people to deal with hostile threats.
How many lesson plans have you written?
How many of your students have been involved in lethal confrontations and came back to you and thanked you and hugged you telling you your instruction made the difference?

Have a great retirement but don't preach to us like your still in the game...you're not.

MTPD
04-15-2010, 08:39
I give up!

David Armstrong
04-15-2010, 09:34
SWAT, go back and read the OP. This thread wasn't intended to be advice for police officers, rather it was specifically intended for those who carry concealed and refuse to be victims = civilians.
Bad advice is bad advice, be it for uniformed LE or others.
As for tunnel vision, I've always had it when in dangerous situations. However, I never thought of it as a handicap.
Which is just one more bit of evidence demonstrating your lack of understanding and experience regarding actual tactics.

MTPD
04-15-2010, 09:37
Bad advice is bad advice, be it for uniformed LE or others.

.

At last, we agree on something!!!!!!!!!! :supergrin:

RussP
04-15-2010, 16:16
...
Tunnel vision: Yes, I understand multiple threats. But.....you have to take them out one at a time, which means you have to concentrate/focus/tunnel-in on them one by one while actually shooting. I learned that early in life while hunting. When you jump multiple targets you have to concentrate on one (and only one) until that one drops, then quickly move on to the next, otherwise you might miss them all. Same thing with BG's.That is not total BS, just 99%. That may work when hunting 4-legged animals that do not have the capability of killing you, but when engaging the armed two legged variety, following your advice will get someone killed. Why do you say stupid **** like that...no question mark - that's rhetorical.

jdavionic
04-15-2010, 16:29
This advice is for those who carry concealed legally and refuse to be victims.

(1) Plan ahead. Decide what you will do if confronted by an armed robber, memorize it, practice it, and if the situation ever comes up, ACT THE INSTANT THE OPPORTUNITY ARISES!

(2) Play "What if?" games in your mind. For example, when you walk into a 7/11 ask yourself what you would do "if" this or that happens.

(3) Bear in mind that during real life armed robberies there are almost always opportunities to take out the robber(s). They usually don't watch everyone all the time. Or they get distracted by something or other. When their attention is momentarily elsewhere, that's the time to ACT!

(4) Carry a 100% reliable and effective pistol (or two) loaded with effective ammo, and practice enough to be confident in your ability to prevail. Confidence breeds success.

(5) Ignore all the "Oh Lordy, please don't start a gunfight Matilda!" nonsense you see on the net. In my police experience, hardly anyone hit by surprise with a powerful COM upper torso JHP is able to shoot back. If they can't shoot back, there is no "gunfight".

(6) Never ever follow orders to lie on the floor face down, or to go into a back room. Your survival probability drops considerably in those situations.

Good general advice. I will offer a couple of additional items for consideration. On items 1 & 2, I agree 100%...but, your plans will likely get trashed the second an incident occurs. It's still good to plan & run through the scenarios. But that's where your #4 comes into play. If you've ever shot competitively, you will quickly find out out that your plan often goes out the window when something unexpected happens and you are under stress. It doesn't mean that planning and playing what if scenarios is a bad thing. Not at all. I just mean that you need to practice, practice, practice...and take it beyond just standing in front of a stationary target at a range.

On item 6, I can tell you that's not always true. I can't discuss the details but an individual was a victim of an armed robbery. He was one of many victims being robbed. He decided to not follow orders. He was the only one shot & killed. Unfortunately I don't think there is a cardinal rule that works every time. If you are armed and have an opportunity to engage, I think you stand a better chance of winning the confrontation. But be aware there is the risk that you will not. You just need to make you best judgement and don't look back.

beatcop
04-15-2010, 20:08
The words to live by are money and property are not worth it, your life or a loved ones are worth it. That is where the line is drawn IMHO

If I am in uniform or if the perp starts taking patrons wallets where my creds are, yup I will cause a distraction and it will be go time. that is NOT the TYPICAL stop and rob scenario.


Stop with that crazy talk....you should know by now that anything resembling "sense" is just wuss talk!

After joining the military, becoming a cop, deploying, etc...I discovered that some people are different, some are nuts, & some don't get "it"...& never will.

I have seen a few things and can only express my hope that this old dude holds his fire...I see the armored car scene in Heat, the bank scene in Point Break (?) and a few others where "that guy" decides it's time to draw a pea shooter at the wrong moment, against insurmountable odds. Sorry, I can only articulate this through movie clips, but a pic is worth a thousand words.

We all have dillusions of superior marksmanship at times, but let's get real, we may not have the expertise of MTPD...and to recommend to the untrained masses to initiate combat at the first opportunity is bad advice.

We're not talking about a swat call-out, a plane hijacking by hajji, a suicide bomber at a roadblock in Iraq...we've been bantering about a "standard" grab-n-go where the crook takes the money and runs....toss your wallet and run. You'll live longer.

If you are joe whitebread and think you're going to outshoot a crook who has a bead already, you need to reevaluate the situation. Crooks who have reached this point in their criminal career have "training & experience"....they know they will smoke you at the first flinch you make, they've done this before & may enjoy it! They may have shot a few people...no hesitation here.

The fact that many people can perform the mechanics of handling and static marksmanship on a one way range has bolstered egos to the point where some feel they can handle violent scenarios and conversely guys who have seen a few things think they can take on the world.

I'm not a guru, but I feel the urge to say that survival is a mix of skill, mindset, and experience. Try to find the proper ratios by talking to folks who have a track record and maybe get some competent training if you can afford it.

brausso
04-15-2010, 20:14
On item 6, I can tell you that's not always true. I can't discuss the details but an individual was a victim of an armed robbery. He was one of many victims being robbed. He decided to not follow orders. He was the only one shot & killed. Unfortunately I don't think there is a cardinal rule that works every time. If you are armed and have an opportunity to engage, I think you stand a better chance of winning the confrontation. But be aware there is the risk that you will not. You just need to make you best judgement and don't look back.

Good stuff. That's exactly why I said it's not a good idea to stand out as the problem, but rather blend in and adapt. :agree:

MTPD
04-15-2010, 20:45
Good general advice. I will offer a couple of additional items for consideration. On items 1 & 2, I agree 100%...but, your plans will likely get trashed the second an incident occurs. It's still good to plan & run through the scenarios. But that's where your #4 comes into play. If you've ever shot competitively, you will quickly find out out that your plan often goes out the window when something unexpected happens and you are under stress. It doesn't mean that planning and playing what if scenarios is a bad thing. Not at all. I just mean that you need to practice, practice, practice...and take it beyond just standing in front of a stationary target at a range.

On item 6, I can tell you that's not always true. I can't discuss the details but an individual was a victim of an armed robbery. He was one of many victims being robbed. He decided to not follow orders. He was the only one shot & killed. Unfortunately I don't think there is a cardinal rule that works every time. If you are armed and have an opportunity to engage, I think you stand a better chance of winning the confrontation. But be aware there is the risk that you will not. You just need to make you best judgement and don't look back.

Every robbery situation is a unique event and the outcome can't be predicted. I just watched a crime program on TV where several adults and 4 children were hearded into the back room at a bowling alley and all were shot execution style by two armed robbers. Three survived, the rest died. Nobody resisted.

MTPD
04-15-2010, 20:48
I give up!

jdavionic
04-16-2010, 04:23
Every robbery situation is a unique event and the outcome can't be predicted. I just watched a crime program on TV where several adults and 4 children were hearded into the back room at a bowling alley and all were shot execution style by two armed robbers. Three survived, the rest died. Nobody resisted.

Yep...that's what black & white rules are impossible to develop for such a dynamic situation. I will say that have situational awareness is a huge factor in avoiding being put a major disadvantage. Noting the entrance of restaurant and looking at the folks coming in versus sitting obliviously with your back to everything would be a major advantage in helping you decide early how best to react.

Mayhem like Me
04-16-2010, 07:16
Every robbery situation is a unique event and the outcome can't be predicted. I just watched a crime program on TV where several adults and 4 children were hearded into the back room at a bowling alley and all were shot execution style by two armed robbers. Three survived, the rest died. Nobody resisted.

The situation you are describing is called "moving to a secondary crime scene" and is always an indicator you are in peril and you should resist, you should take my class on personal security.

It is clear when you are being moved to a secondary crime scene that your life is in danger and you should do what you can to survive.

That is MUCH different from a quick stop and rob scenario or bank takeover.

This is all a moot point since on any given day only about 20% of those that carry guns are truly mentally prepared to use them to take a life.

This is based on MY experience debrieng those that were in shootings or SHOULD HAVE SHOT. Both Police and civilian.

Mayhem like Me
04-16-2010, 07:18
Oh and about your signature line, you realize he is an entertainer???

MTPD
04-16-2010, 12:20
The situation you are describing is called "moving to a secondary crime scene" and is always an indicator you are in peril and you should resist, you should take my class on personal security.

It is clear when you are being moved to a secondary crime scene that your life is in danger and you should do what you can to survive.

That is MUCH different from a quick stop and rob scenario or bank takeover.

This is all a moot point since on any given day only about 20% of those that carry guns are truly mentally prepared to use them to take a life.

This is based on MY experience debrieng those that were in shootings or SHOULD HAVE SHOT. Both Police and civilian.

Am I disoriented, or are you agreeing with some of my original points? Namely, don't let a robber take you in the back room, plan ahead so you are mentally "ready", play "what if" games to refine your tactics, and be ready, willing and able to shoot first, if shooting becomes necessary.

If so, thank you!

By the way, I never thought of shooting in self-defense as "taking a life". I've always considered it saving a life, or lives (mine and other innocents'). As far as the armed felon goes, he accepted the possibility of himself getting shot, or of having to kill innocents when he decided to use a gun in the commission of a crime. So any shooting that takes place is totally his fault, not his victim's.

Bottom line is this, by using a gun to commit felonies, armed robbers (tacitly) volunteer to be targets. Just like the felon did that you dropped with your MP5, right? Which means whatever happens is the felon's fault. At least to me it is.

MTPD
04-16-2010, 12:39
Yep, Glenn Beck is both a political commentator and an entertainer, and does an excellent job at both. The main thing is that he's a loyal, patriotic American, and is almost always right. He also doesn't just give his "opinions", but provides the proof that what he's saying is true. He's #1!!!

Mayhem like Me
04-16-2010, 13:16
Am I disoriented, or are you agreeing with some of my original points? Namely, don't let a robber take you in the back room, plan ahead so you are mentally "ready", play "what if" games to refine your tactics, and be ready, willing and able to shoot first, if shooting becomes necessary.

If so, thank you!

By the way, I never thought of shooting in self-defense as "taking a life". I've always considered it saving a life, or lives (mine and other innocents'). As far as the armed felon goes, he accepted the possibility of himself getting shot, or of having to kill innocents when he decided to use a gun in the commission of a crime. So any shooting that takes place is totally his fault, not his victim's.

Bottom line is this, by using a gun to commit felonies, armed robbers (tacitly) volunteer to be targets. Just like the felon did that you dropped with your MP5, right? Which means whatever happens is the felon's fault. At least to me it is.


Semantics if you do it correctly you will take a life while saving one, and very few men and women have what it takes to do it when they need to.

I only agree withe the secondary crime scene scenario not the everyone on the floor don't look at me scenario.
In the case of the get on the floor don't look at me scenario it is counterproductive to bring atention to yourself.

The only time during that scenario you woudl have a chance is during divisied attention when more than one person was moving , and you'd better be sure your tunnel vision did not miss the robbers partner that was in the bathroom.

The problem with 6 bullet points of advise is they have no context or lesson attached and become disjointed and fail when questioned.
You can't break down a lethal encounter on a message board nor can you give sage advice about what to due during a robbery, that is given in person while evaluating capabilities and mindset.

MTPD
04-17-2010, 08:53
Semantics if you do it correctly you will take a life while saving one, and very few men and women have what it takes to do it when they need to.

I only agree withe the secondary crime scene scenario not the everyone on the floor don't look at me scenario.
In the case of the get on the floor don't look at me scenario it is counterproductive to bring atention to yourself.

The only time during that scenario you woudl have a chance is during divisied attention when more than one person was moving , and you'd better be sure your tunnel vision did not miss the robbers partner that was in the bathroom.

The problem with 6 bullet points of advise is they have no context or lesson attached and become disjointed and fail when questioned.
You can't break down a lethal encounter on a message board nor can you give sage advice about what to due during a robbery, that is given in person while evaluating capabilities and mindset.

I think we really agree on a lot of this. We are just using different words and looking at it from different angles. Plus, I've never advocated not using your head in dangerous situations. I assume, perhaps wrongly, that armed civilians confronted by armed felons will use their heads and wait for an appropriate moment to act. That moment may be immediately, or maybe a few seconds or minutes later. It's situaton dependent.

As for saving lives, here is another perspective. I shot at and missed a felon (short shotgun, long range) who we later arrested uninjured. Later, after he got out of prison, he murdered a California Highway Patrol Officer. In another case I had a felon, who was resisting with violence, at gun point but didn't shoot. When he got out of prison he and another guy committed a robbery/murder, beating a sailor to death with a 2x4.

So....not dropping the BG's can also result in unforseen fatal consequences for innocents.

David Armstrong
04-17-2010, 10:21
So....not dropping the BG's can also result in unforseen fatal consequences for innocents.
Just as attempting to drop the BG when not necessary can also result in unforeseen fatal consequences for innocents. The smart person tries to figure out which response gives the most likely favorable outcome.

MTPD
04-18-2010, 09:39
Just as attempting to drop the BG when not necessary can also result in unforeseen fatal consequences for innocents. The smart person tries to figure out which response gives the most likely favorable outcome.



Very true. I think I have long made it clear that my advice was for shooting only when the victim decides it is necessary. I, for example, have had +/- 600 felons at gunpoint (not including hundreds of rioters) but only had to actually shoot a few times.

I always use my head in dangerous situations, and suggest everyone else do the same.

That being said, whenever a felon points a gun at me or mine, I automatically consider that to be a death threat and act accordingly. Why? Because it is a death threat, and if you wait until after the felon pulls the trigger it's too late.

steve2267
04-18-2010, 10:08
That being said, whenever a felon points a gun at me or mine, I automatically consider that to be a death threat and act accordingly. Why? Because it is a death threat, and if you wait until after the felon pulls the trigger it's too late.

It has not been clear to me through this entire thread the context of the "armed robbery" being discussed.

Now I see it specifically mentioned that a "felon points a gun at me or mine." That is worlds apart from some crook running into a stop 'n rob and robbing the till.

MTPD, would you agree that if the robbers attention is NEVER directed at you or yours, the situation is somewhat different? Also, would you agree that once the assailant has his gun pointed at you, his attention focused on you, and is outside arms reach, that that is generally a really poor time to try to draw on him, even if you "explode off the X" ?

David Armstrong
04-18-2010, 13:31
I think I have long made it clear that my advice was for shooting only when the victim decides it is necessary.
No. Not only have you not made it clear, you have regularly advocated shooting just because one could, not because it was necessary.
I, for example, have had +/- 600 felons at gunpoint (not including hundreds of rioters) but only had to actually shoot a few times.
Just where and when was this, again? Anything to support these claims you keep tossing out so glibly? iven that most cops are able to arrest most of their felons without using their guns, why are yo uso far outside of the norm for common and accepted LE actions?

MTPD
04-19-2010, 11:14
It has not been clear to me through this entire thread the context of the "armed robbery" being discussed.

Now I see it specifically mentioned that a "felon points a gun at me or mine." That is worlds apart from some crook running into a stop 'n rob and robbing the till.

MTPD, would you agree that if the robbers attention is NEVER directed at you or yours, the situation is somewhat different? Also, would you agree that once the assailant has his gun pointed at you, his attention focused on you, and is outside arms reach, that that is generally a really poor time to try to draw on him, even if you "explode off the X" ?

Amed robbers generally point their guns at whoever is present, but probably not continuously if there are several victims located in different areas of the premises. So...it's unlikely that you won't have a gun pointed at you during an armed robbery, just as it is unlikely that it will be pointed at you continuously.

Bear in mind, that I started this thread by stating it was for THOSE WHO REFUSE TO BE VICTIMS! So it isn't intended for everybody, especially not those who seem to think being robbed at gunpoint as nothing much to worry about. :faint:

As I mentioned previously, what I would actually do is situation dependent. But generally speaking, I'd wait until the robber was momentarily distracted then act. Why? Because that would put me ahead of the curve, and him behind.

Here's a question for those who would just submit. How can you know ahead of time if your particular armed robber is planning to murder all the witnesses, including you, or not? The answer is simple, you can't know until after he starts the executions, and then it's too late. That being the reality of armed robberies, why take a chance? Why not drop what is obviously a potential killer (which is a certainty because he's pointing a weapon and threatening you, and maybe other innocent victims, with death) before he can start the killing? And if he really isn't willing to commit murder, why the gun? As for me, my concern is for the survival of the innocent, and I never have cared much about what happens to violent armed felons.

Those who are more concerned with saving the lives of armed robbers (because they are just good "folks" like everbody else?????) need not follow my advice. Not that they are capable of following it successfully in the first place.

MTPD
04-19-2010, 11:40
Just to show that I don't shoot every armed robber that tries to rob me, I was on a stake-out once along the RR tracks in my city. It was night, I was in my own private vehicle in plain clothes pretending to drink beer. I was trying to catch a black armed robber who had been going across the tracks and robbing whites at knife point (cutting the throats of several slightly) then fleeing back into the ghetto.

Well, I was supposed to be the back-up guy for the cop who was on foot pretending to be a drunk old codger, when the adult robber came up to my open window, along with 6-8 black teenagers, and demanded my wallet at knife point.

Being the cautions guy I am, I already had my .38 snubbie in my right hand, concealed under my right thigh. Some of the teens were at the passenger window leaning in and trying to see if I had any weapons. But they couldn't see it because it was covered by my leg.

I quickly reached out with my left hand, grabbed the knife-guy by the shirt front and jerked him up against the window frame so he couldn't use his knife easily, while at the same time putting my .38 in his face at contact distance and yelling, "POLICE!". The knife-guy dropped his knife, the teens fled, and nobody got shot or stabbed.

So.....maybe I'm a nicer guy than some here seems to think?

David Armstrong
04-19-2010, 12:05
So, while supposedly working as support for a decoy officer over a half dozen guys were able to approach your vehicle and assault/attempt to rob you without you noticing it until the act was well into the process. Yep, sounds like really good police work there!:faint:

Where and when was this, again?

MTPD
04-19-2010, 12:16
So, while supposedly working as support for a decoy officer over a half dozen guys were able to approach your vehicle and assault/attempt to rob you without you noticing it until the act was well into the process. Yep, sounds like really good police work there!:faint:

Where and when was this, again?

David, Did I say I didn't see them coming???? And, pay attention here, we were supposed to be pretending to be easy victims in order to sucker the armed robber into trying to rob us. Because of drunk victims' poor descriptions, we hadn't been able to ID him.

I thought I did a pretty good job, and didn't even have to resort to a bunch of meaningless stats, or do a cost/benefit analysis, to get the guy. :rofl::faint::rofl:

How would you have done it better? Armed robber in jail, no one shot or stabbed, and all that accomplished in only one hour on state-out.

dgg9
04-19-2010, 17:08
So it isn't intended for everybody, especially not those who seem to think being robbed at gunpoint as nothing much to worry about.

And it IS intended, apparently, for those who believe starting a gunfight among bystanders is nothing much to worry about.

Here's a question for those who would just submit. How can you know ahead of time if your particular armed robber is planning to murder all the witnesses, including you, or not? The answer is simple, you can't know until after he starts the executions, and then it's too late.

This has already been answered. The fact that you think the norm is that robbery becomes massacre with no warning speaks to your lack of knowledge in this area.

As for me, my concern if for the survival of the innocent, and I never have cared much about what happens to violent armed felons.

Actually, it's apparent that survival of the innocent is not your concern at all, else you wouldn't be so blase about advising escalation, as if "dropping the BG" without him getting off shots is some sort of automatic gimme. You seem to be living in this dreamworld consisting 100% of episodes of bad 70s TV cop shows, where the shot BG instantly drops to the ground, inert.

dgg9
04-19-2010, 17:10
So.....maybe I'm a nicer guy than some here seems to think?

No, just more imaginative.

beatcop
04-19-2010, 18:47
Just to show that I don't shoot every armed robber that tries to rob me, I was on a stake-out once along the RR tracks in my city. It was night, I was in my own private vehicle in plain clothes pretending to drink beer

...times have changed.

MTPD
04-20-2010, 05:28
...times have changed.

I was in my own private vehicle because in those days the BG's could recognize our unmarked police vehicles blocks away. When we didn't happen to have any confiscated vehicles available, we had to use our own personal vehicles on stake-outs/undercover ops if we didn't want to be "made".

David Armstrong
04-20-2010, 08:38
David, Did I say I didn't see them coming????
Oh, so you saw them coming and still let them surround your vehicle and put you at a distinct tactical disadvantage? Gee, that sort of ranks right up there with sitting in the car with your gun tucked under your leg. The more you talk the more obvious it is that you know next to nothing about good tactics or good police work.
And, pay attention here, we were supposed to be pretending to be easy victims in order to sucker the armed robber into trying to rob us.
No, YOU were supposed to be taking care of support for your partner. Sounds like you screwed that up royally.
I thought I did a pretty good job, and didn't even have to resort to a bunch of meaningless stats, or do a cost/benefit analysis, to get the guy.
Actually you did do a cost/benefit analysis, based on stats. You just can't seem to understand that is what you did.

MTPD
04-20-2010, 09:58
Oh, so you saw them coming and still let them surround your vehicle and put you at a distinct tactical disadvantage? Gee, that sort of ranks right up there with sitting in the car with your gun tucked under your leg. The more you talk the more obvious it is that you know next to nothing about good tactics or good police work.

No, YOU were supposed to be taking care of support for your partner. Sounds like you screwed that up royally.

Actually you did do a cost/benefit analysis, based on stats. You just can't seem to understand that is what you did.

David, until the armed robber actually tried to rob me we had no case. So I had to let him try. That's the way it's done. (Are you sure you were a cop once?)

My revolver was in my shooting hand the entire time I was on stake-out. Which is the way I always operated in such situations. I only tucked it part way under my leg to prevent the teen accomplices from seeing it until I wanted them to. And they tried their best to see if I was armed before actually initiating the robbery.

The robber was the one who did a cost/benefit analysis, if anyone did. After I grabbed him and shoved my .38 in his face, he only had a split-second to do the computations. Apparently he was a math wiz, because he immediately chose to drop the knife, surrender....and live. But I doubt he relied on stats for the decision, instead I think it was the look in my eyes that told him he was less than a second away from death.

David Armstrong
04-20-2010, 10:22
David, until the armed robber actually tried to rob me we had no case. So I had to let him try. That's the way it's done.
No, that is not the way it is done when you are in support of the decoy officer. Of course, that you would be doing this solo in your own car is also not the way it is done, so what else is new?
My revolver was in my shooting hand the entire time I was on stake-out. Which is the way I always operated in such situations.
As I said, poor tactics and poor police work.
The robber was the one who did a cost/benefit analysis, if anyone did.
Keep on thinking that. We'll add it to the many other things you obvioulsy don't understand.

MTPD
04-20-2010, 11:05
No, that is not the way it is done when you are in support of the decoy officer. Of course, that you would be doing this solo in your own car is also not the way it is done, so what else is new?

As I said, poor tactics and poor police work.

Keep on thinking that. We'll add it to the many other things you obvioulsy don't understand.

Are you saying I should have told the armed robber to wait for the right decoy cop, instead of taking him down myself when opportunity knocked? Or that me capturing the armed robber single-handedly only one hour into the stake-ou (even though he had 6-8 ghetto followers with him) was "poor police work"!!! Apparently my department disagreed with you, because I got a letter of commendation for the arrest. Mainly because the depaartment felt this guy was going to end up murdering a victim sooner or later, due to him having left cut marks on several throats previously. :faint:


Maybe you should explain in detail exactly what you would have done? All you do is complain that everybody else is wrong, without explaining how you, with all your bookish-brilliance, could have done better with the resources we had available at the time.

Available resources: 1 rookie patrolman decoy cop, 1 experienced Det. Sgt. back-up cop (me), no department unmarked cars that wouldn't be spotted as police vehicles. That was it.

David Armstrong
04-20-2010, 11:21
All you do is complain that everybody else is wrong, without explaining how you, with all your bookish-brilliance, could have done better with the resources we had available at the time.
I don't have to teach someone how to cook a pancake to point out that they have burned the one they cooked. You are the one that keeps claiming all this experience, many others, including me, keep pointing out that your claims and the way you say to do things conflicts with good tactics and the training that real police officers have. You want to continue posting bad advice and nonsense claims, go right ahead, but don't expect folks to let the nonsense slide by without pointing out that it is nonsense.

Dragoon44
04-20-2010, 11:24
1 rookie patrolman decoy cop

So let me get this straight, you put an inexperienced rookie patrolman in a highly dangerous decoy assignment?

Supposedly you are a Det. Sgt, but didn't have anyone in your squad that could perform the Decoy role?

David Armstrong
04-20-2010, 11:33
So let me get this straight, you put an inexperienced rookie patrolman in a highly dangerous decoy assignment?

Supposedly you are a Det. Sgt, but didn't have anyone in your squad that could perform the Decoy role?

Heck, he's also the only support element in what he has previously said was one of the most dangerous places in America to work in LE, and doesn't have access to a non-LE-identifiable unmarked unit. Doesn't sound like a very good officer to me, personally.

Dragoon44
04-20-2010, 11:38
Heck, he's also the only support element in what he has previously said was one of the most dangerous places in America to work in LE, and doesn't have access to a non-LE-identifiable unmarked unit. Doesn't sound like a very good officer to me, personally.

It sure as hell is not the way we did decoy operations.

BleedNOrange
04-20-2010, 12:32
http://robotpirateninja.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/inet_tough_guy.jpg

BleedNOrange
04-20-2010, 12:46
Dave, we have had this discussion before. As I have mentioned , I am all for taking action IF certain criteria has been met. I'm not a shoot em up guns a blazin every time advocate but sometimes you have to do what ya gotta do. I started a thread awhile back of a fellow officer in my dept that did exactly that. Took on 3 armed robbers. He was undercover and in plain clothes.
You are very good at giving statistics and numbers. Thats fine and dandy but if you are on the receiving end of that small percentage it would suck. MTPD does make a few valid points. It is always good to have situational awareness and be prepared to act BUT have the common sense not to if its not in your (or others) best interest.

beatcop
04-20-2010, 18:35
I was in my own private vehicle because in those days the BG's could recognize our unmarked police vehicles blocks away. When we didn't happen to have any confiscated vehicles available, we had to use our own personal vehicles on stake-outs/undercover ops if we didn't want to be "made".

There are some liability issues these days, your PD's and your personal insurance. Now we just rent a car and throw some plates on from the box.

MTPD
04-21-2010, 07:10
There are some liability issues these days, your PD's and your personal insurance. Now we just rent a car and throw some plates on from the box.

You are luckier than we were! Our Chief wouldn't even let two of us detectives drive a city car to another city about 150 miles away to interview a suspect in an unsolved robbery/murder that happened in our city. He was too cheap! The case is still unsolved.

Would the PD pay for rental cars for under-cover ops? No way!

By the way, the unsolved robbery/murder involved a HOJO Motel night manager who lay face down on the floor, like a good little sheep, and was executed by the robber(s). Apparently the robbers/murderers hadn't read David's golden book of stats!!! :upeyes:

MTPD
04-21-2010, 07:19
So let me get this straight, you put an inexperienced rookie patrolman in a highly dangerous decoy assignment?

Supposedly you are a Det. Sgt, but didn't have anyone in your squad that could perform the Decoy role?

Dragoon, nobody but rookies were foolish enough to volunteer to be armed robbery victims! This was especially so in this case, where previous victims had been cut. More experienced cops were too street-smart to put themselves in that kind of situation. I only ended up in it by accident.

MTPD
04-21-2010, 07:24
I don't have to teach someone how to cook a pancake to point out that they have burned the one they cooked. You are the one that keeps claiming all this experience, many others, including me, keep pointing out that your claims and the way you say to do things conflicts with good tactics and the training that real police officers have. You want to continue posting bad advice and nonsense claims, go right ahead, but don't expect folks to let the nonsense slide by without pointing out that it is nonsense.

Ignorant criticism is so easy even my mother-in-law can do it! :faint:

David Armstrong
04-21-2010, 08:52
As I have mentioned , I am all for taking action IF certain criteria has been met.
So am I. The questions become what type of action and what criteria. To me it is simple...almost all the available information out there indicates you start shooting as a last resort, not as a first option.

David Armstrong
04-21-2010, 08:55
Ignorant criticism is so easy even my mother-in-law can do it! :faint:

You mean that even your untrained mother-in-law can recognize that most of your advice conflicts with good tactics and the training that real police officers have? That should tell you something right there.