Dillon 550 : Sizing die issue [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Dillon 550 : Sizing die issue


Kwesi
04-08-2010, 22:15
After my 2nd time loading 9mm we found too many rounds that would not fit in the case gauge due to a slight buldge. We had adjusted the sizing die per the manual.

We found that my screwing it down 1 more turn that then the brass would fit properly and the primer was seated correctly.

Any problem this newbie should be aware of with this adjustment?

Thank you!

njl
04-08-2010, 22:17
What does the adjustment of the sizing die have to do with primers seating?

PCJim
04-08-2010, 22:32
Kwesi, I believe you are misnaming the die you are referring to. The sizing die is in station one on your 550b, the sizing/depriming die. Station 2 is your powder thru die and powder throw. Station 3 is your bullet seating and crimping die. If you bought a Lee FCD, it is probably in station 4.

Primer seating is performed without a die - it is the backstroke while a case is in station 1.

If you are referring to the sizing/depriming die in station 1, it should be initially adjusted such that the shell plate touches the bottom of the die at the bottom of the press stroke. Set each of your dies as per directions, then place a case in each station position and readjust as needed for a final tweeking.

If the sizing/depriming die does not touch the shellplate, it is not fully sizing the casings and can leave a slightly wider bulge at the base of the case. Might these cases be those that were ran thru the smg?

Kwesi
04-08-2010, 22:41
Kwesi, I believe you are misnaming the die you are referring to. The sizing die is in station one on your 550b, the sizing/depriming die. Station 2 is your powder thru die and powder throw. Station 3 is your bullet seating and crimping die. If you bought a Lee FCD, it is probably in station 4.

Primer seating is performed without a die - it is the backstroke while a case is in station 1.

If you are referring to the sizing/depriming die in station 1, it should be initially adjusted such that the shell plate touches the bottom of the die at the bottom of the press stroke. Set each of your dies as per directions, then place a case in each station position and readjust as needed for a final tweeking.

If the sizing/depriming die does not touch the shellplate, it is not fully sizing the casings and can leave a slightly wider bulge at the base of the case. Might these cases be those that were ran thru the smg?

PC: I am referring to station 1 using my Dillon carbide dies. We initially adjusted it per the manual then later gave it one more turn. We found a case that would not fit in the gauge then ran it thru after the above adj. It then fit fine! I thought this add'l adjustment might affect the primer seating properly which is why I made note of it.

Don't yet know if the brass was from the smg. I've been collecting several thousands of cases over the past 2 years. Easy enough to verify and I'll get back to you.

fredj338
04-08-2010, 22:46
What does Dillon say about setting up the sizing die? I screw the die down until it touches the shell plate. That seems to work fine. If you set the die down any firther, you do run the risk of cracking the carbide insert.

Kwesi
04-08-2010, 22:51
What does Dillon say about setting up the sizing die? I screw the die down until it touches the shell plate. That seems to work fine. If you set the die down any firther, you do run the risk of cracking the carbide insert.

fred: the instructions say to screw it down until it touches. I plan to call Dillon tomorrow and run it by them. Sure would make things really go smoother if they give it the ok. I have at least 2 dozen rounds to pull.

hoffy
04-08-2010, 22:53
+1 on fredj338, I have seen several carbide dies cracked over the years when I worked at a gun shop. All but one were set too low and hit shell holder, one was dropped on a concrete floor.

Murphy's Law
04-09-2010, 06:39
Sometimes it's necessary to lower the station #1 a little bit to make sure "head space" is correct. I don't believe lowering a turn would cause noted breakage.

unclebob
04-09-2010, 07:16
Go with what Fred said. Dillon dies have a beveled base. So you cannot have a space between the shell plate and the die.
Check too see if the rounds you loaded well chamber in the gun if they do, go ahead and shoot them.
With Dillon dies in station 3 you seat the bullet and station four is your crimp die

ron59
04-09-2010, 07:26
I got rid of my Dillon sizing die and got a Lee due to the same issue you described. After much googling, I found evidence that the design of the Dillon die doesn't size the base of the brass quite as good as the Lee.

Since the toolhead has play in it, I think just screwing it down until it touches the shellplate isn't quite good enough, you do need to go down slightly more. I followed these instructions from Steve (Colorado4Wheel):

1) Raise the ram and lower the die till it contacts the shellplate
2) Lower the ram a touch and lower the die a touch more.
3) Raise the ram again slowly, watch the toolhead/dieholder as it moves up. Watch the shellplate to see if it moves at all (they don't move as much).
4) Lower the ram and lower the die in toolhead again, repeat step 3 till you feel additional pressure in the handle. At this point STOP and loosen (raise) the die a touch. You will be able to get a good amount of movement down on the die before you notice any increase in pressure at the handle. Obviously, it's important to not have too much pressure on the die. Just enough to take the slack out of the press. Properly adjust you will feel no additional pressure in the handle then when you have the die just touching the shellplate and not taking the slack out of the toolhead/press.
5) Put a case in the shellholder and raise the ram, tighten the die lock ring. This will actually raise the die just a smidge as well.


I think the 550B has some inherent "slack" in it, as Steve said.
I have much less sizing issues now. All my WIN and Blazer brass drop into my hand gauge just fine. Some of the "mixed" brass I have hangs up, but that brass is more beat up with a few burrs and such. I used to remove those burrs with a file, but if it's only that last 1/16" or so it won't drop in, it'll still shoot out of the Glock. And it's my practice ammo anyway. And NO fault of the sizing die.

PCJim
04-09-2010, 11:21
On all my toolheads, after initially setting the dies, I load the shellplate up with four casings and readjust the dies as necessary. I do believe that there is a minute amount of play in the 550b, as Ron stated and I alluded to in my initial post. Making your final adjustments with a loaded shellplate (as the press would be operating while in full production) will insure everything is properly set.

fredj338
04-09-2010, 11:43
On all my toolheads, after initially setting the dies, I load the shellplate up with four casings and readjust the dies as necessary. I do believe that there is a minute amount of play in the 550b, as Ron stated and I alluded to in my initial post. Making your final adjustments with a loaded shellplate (as the press would be operating while in full production) will insure everything is properly set.

It's quite simple to remove the tool head "slop"; either shim or turn the tool head over & dimple the key so it needs some force to go back in the press. I don't use Dillon dies for the 9mm (RCBS), but do for the 40 & 10mm, 45acp, 44mag, 45colt, 357mag, 357sig, all are adjusted to just touch the shell plate. All size the cases reliabley to pass case gage & chamber checks (although the only Glocks I have are 9mm).

MrMunster
04-09-2010, 12:11
Add a Lee FCD in stage 4 and quit worrying about it.

I shoot 20k+ 9mm a year and stopped checking after I changed out the Dillon seating and crimp dies for the Lee. I do still use the Dillon sizing die because the beveled edge feeds better than the Lee.

Kwesi
04-09-2010, 13:36
I contacted Dillon today and was told that the extra turn on the sizing die is NO problem as this is often needed. After removing the bullets/powder (for the rounds that did not fit in the case gauge ) we put them back thru ( sizing die ) after first removing the stem and we saved 75% of the cases w/primers.

Dillon wanted me to make sure that we were not over crimping and thus causing the bulge. We had minimal crimp.

unclebob
04-09-2010, 15:56
I contacted Dillon today and was told that the extra turn on the sizing die is NO problem as this is often needed. After removing the bullets/powder (for the rounds that did not fit in the case gauge ) we put them back thru ( sizing die ) after first removing the stem and we saved 75% of the cases w/primers.

Dillon wanted me to make sure that we were not over crimping and thus causing the bulge. We had minimal crimp.

Would those rounds that would not pass the case gauge fit in the gun?

Colorado4Wheel
04-09-2010, 17:02
I don't like the random "just add a turn" idea. Do the work that was posted above and you will know it's right and as good as you can make it.

Kwesi
04-09-2010, 18:30
Would those rounds that would not pass the case gauge fit in the gun?

I did not have my G17 barrel to check. The smg probably is not as tight as the G17.

Kwesi
04-09-2010, 18:31
I don't like the random "just add a turn" idea. Do the work that was posted above and you will know it's right and as good as you can make it.

What problem do you see it causing? We followed the manual but had too many that weren't sized correctly. Remember that I'm a newbie to reloading.

unclebob
04-09-2010, 18:36
I did not have my G17 barrel to check. The smg probably is not as tight as the G17.

Glock have a very loose chamber. The rounds that you pulled would probably would have worked in the Glock barrels. Just because they well not pass the check gauge does not mean they well not work in a Glock I have yet too find a round that would not pass the case gauge, But everyone work in the gun.

ron59
04-09-2010, 18:43
What problem do you see it causing? We followed the manual but had too many that weren't sized correctly. Remember that I'm a newbie to reloading.

Too much stress on the die or shellplate, as was alluded to in some of the early responses.

"Adding a turn" isn't quite as *exact* as the instructions posted. They seem difficult, but shouldn't take more than 10 minutes to execute. They insure that you're getting the right "fit", without putting too much stress on the die or shellplate.

Kwesi
04-09-2010, 20:00
Too much stress on the die or shellplate, as was alluded to in some of the early responses.

"Adding a turn" isn't quite as *exact* as the instructions posted. They seem difficult, but shouldn't take more than 10 minutes to execute. They insure that you're getting the right "fit", without putting too much stress on the die or shellplate.

Thanks!

Colorado4Wheel
04-09-2010, 20:32
Stated simply, Just tighten the die till all the slack is out of the toolhead/shellplate. Then subtract a very scientific "smidge". Your done.

fredj338
04-09-2010, 21:49
Stated simply, Just tighten the die till all the slack is out of the toolhead/shellplate. Then subtract a very scientific "smidge". Your done.

Yep, sheet of paper works as a "feeler gage". Just touching also works, but I would be leary of turning the die down a full turn past full bottom stroke of the press. THis will cause you to bang into the bottom of the die every sizing & could eventually crack the ring.:dunno:

dudel
04-10-2010, 02:58
PC: I am referring to station 1 using my Dillon carbide dies. We initially adjusted it per the manual then later gave it one more turn. We found a case that would not fit in the gauge then ran it thru after the above adj. It then fit fine! I thought this add'l adjustment might affect the primer seating properly which is why I made note of it.

Don't yet know if the brass was from the smg. I've been collecting several thousands of cases over the past 2 years. Easy enough to verify and I'll get back to you.


Don't follow you at all. Case sizes on the upstroke (ram moving up). Primer seats on the downstroke (ram moving down). Two seperate motions unrelated to each other.

Colorado4Wheel
04-10-2010, 06:45
Yep, sheet of paper works as a "feeler gage". Just touching also works, but I would be leary of turning the die down a full turn past full bottom stroke of the press. THis will cause you to bang into the bottom of the die every sizing & could eventually crack the ring.:dunno:


To be clear, my suggestion and method is more then "just touching". Your actually raising the toolhead with the sizing die, taking all the slack out of the toolhead/shellplate then adding just a smidge of slack back into the die.

unclebob
04-10-2010, 07:19
http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1333

http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1230

If you are worried about slop, here are two ways in removing the slop in the tool head. Personally I think they are a waste of money.

Bren
04-10-2010, 07:26
I only use Lee carbide dies and follow Lee's instruction - never had a problem.

WiskyT
04-10-2010, 07:28
I think the sizing of the cases might not be the problem, but it always gets the blame. I was having the same problem recently and I have been doing this for decades. The problem was the case mouth expansion. I had reset my expander die and had too much belling of the case mouth. No amount of crimp, which I thought was the problem, would fix it because the mouth was left expanded below where the crimping takes place. It was all very subtle and it took me a while to catch on to it. Basically I had a very small bulge all the way around the case, just below the crimp and you couldn't see it. I had to lay the loaded rounds sideways in my calipers and look for the daylight before I finally figured it out.

I had made a lot of changes to my reloading process including casting my own bullets. So I figured the problems had to do with bullet size, crimp, etc. In the end, I was expanding the case mouth too much.

It's easy to see if the sizing is the problem. Size a fired case and see if it fits. Just because a finished round doesn't fit, doesn't mean the sizing is the problem. Usually it's something after the sizing that screws you up.

Almost all fired brass will fit in almost all chambers without even resizing. Take some brass off of the range floor and see if it drops in your chamber, almost always it will.

WiskyT
04-10-2010, 07:34
Also, I use Lee dies on a Pro1000. You Dillon guys don't know anything about slop until you try my 25 year old 1000. I adjust my dies so there is about the thickness of a nickel between the die and the shell plate and my sized cases fit perfectly in all of my guns in all calibers used.

Colorado4Wheel
04-10-2010, 07:47
I agree that a lot of problems get mis diagnosed. I also agree that a lot of people can easily set up their sizing dies different then my way of doing it and have zero issues. To me thats not really the point of the whole thing. To me it's about doing things right for the greatest chance of success. This is just one part of the process. If I try my best to set up every die as well as possible I then have the greatest chance of having the least amount of rejected rounds. It starts with the sizers and works it's way around the toolhead. I try and maximize each step. It's also why I recommend case gauges. It just helps you check the sizer function, bullet seating and crimping as well. Lets you isolate issues by checking each individually if needed. So propers sizing die setup is not the only thing but it's a start. I can't for the life of me think of a single reason to not set it up as tight as possible but not binding the press. Whatevery that means for your press and die. Lately, with lead bullets the biggest issue I have by far is seating the bullets. They seat just a smidge off center and then as a result fail the case gauge. They fit the barrel (barely, it's a tight chamber). Sizing is actually pretty darn easy to get right and check if you just have a case gauge. For me the barrel is too loose. I like them to pass a standard one step better then my barrel. Then I know they will work in a match.

WiskyT
04-10-2010, 07:51
This drawing shows two things. It shows an exagerted illustration of the problem I was having, and it allows everyone to make fun of my ability to use Paint. Of all the things on there, is there some way to draw a straight line? I thought there would be some kind of ruler on there:dunno:

Colorado4Wheel
04-10-2010, 10:32
I.C. Odd eh?? Do you know what your measurement of the flare was?

For a minute there I thought you were giving me the finger in a very clever way.

GioaJack
04-10-2010, 10:44
I thought it was a broken condom... then I remembered we were talking about Wisky and realized that it was a physical impossibility. :supergrin:

Jack

WiskyT
04-10-2010, 12:28
HaHaHa! Go ahead and have your fun. Some of us are serious about this stuff. You'll all be sorry when someone gets their feelings hurt.

ron59
04-10-2010, 13:25
I agree that a lot of problems get mis diagnosed. I also agree that a lot of people can easily set up their sizing dies different then my way of doing it and have zero issues. To me thats not really the point of the whole thing. To me it's about doing things right for the greatest chance of success.

It's the difference between being as "scientific" as possible, as opposed to "well, I'll just crank it down another full turn".

I agree Steve... I want to tune my setup as finely as possible, to maximize my quality for each and every round.

dudel
04-10-2010, 13:58
Of all the things on there, is there some way to draw a straight line? I thought there would be some kind of ruler on there:dunno:

Easy. Click on where you want the line to start, draw the line. While you are still have the mouse button down, hold down the shift key. The line will "snap" straight every 45 degrees from the origin.

WiskyT
04-10-2010, 14:47
Easy. Click on where you want the line to start, draw the line. While you are still have the mouse button down, hold down the shift key. The line will "snap" straight every 45 degrees from the origin.

Thanks!

WiskyT
04-10-2010, 14:53
Easy. Click on where you want the line to start, draw the line. While you are still have the mouse button down, hold down the shift key. The line will "snap" straight every 45 degrees from the origin.

Either it's not "easy" or my computer is dumb. It's a poor carpenter who blames his tools, and I'm a tool, I mean a poor carpenter. I read your instructions and tried it a dozen times with no results.

dudel
04-10-2010, 15:07
Either it's not "easy" or my computer is dumb. It's a poor carpenter who blames his tools, and I'm a tool, I mean a poor carpenter. I read your instructions and tried it a dozen times with no results.

Ok, the other way is to keep the shift key down while you draw the line (it starts out straight that way). If you hold the shift key down after you start drawing the line, it straigtens the crooked line you are drawing.

This may sound obvious, but make sure youv'e selected the line tool, not the curve tool from the toolbox (both show lines). BTW, this is MSPaint I'm talking about. The freebee that comes with Windows. There may be some other program out there called paint (can't speak to that one).

WiskyT
04-10-2010, 15:15
This may sound obvious, but make sure youv'e selected the line tool, not the curve tool from the toolbox (both show lines).

That did it, thanks. I was using the various crayons and brushes. The pencil thingy worked as you described. I'm not allowed to use pencils since they are too sharp. I'm only allowed to use crayons and washable markers.

GioaJack
04-10-2010, 15:19
Wisky:

After your sound verbal thrashing it occurred to me that I might have been too hasty in my assessment of your posted diagram so I have spent the better part of two hours studying it diligently.

I must admit that my first assessment was indeed incorrect. Nay, incorrect to too meek of a description for such an obvious and unthoughtful error... incompetent blunder would be more apt.

I clearly see now that it does not look like a broken condom, nor an obscene gesture with a specific digit as C4W so crudely implied. I will go so far as to say that that it bears no resemblance what-so-ever to a ring-toss game or a disfigured individual playing with a Hula-Hoop. Non of those visions ever flashed through my mind.

After close scrutiny I must say that it is the finest example of the endless possibilities available in the computer program known as Paint. Your use of complex angles would be a mind boggling challenge to Einstein himself and the imaginative use of every color distinguished by the human eye would cause Michelangelo to hang his head in shame.

In short, I am humbled by your obvious computer acumen and must confess that you communicated the subject of your post with acuity and precision.

Please accept my most sincere apology for being so shortsighted and petty... C4W on the other hand sent me a PM confirming that he meant everything he said. I think he should be banned.

Your humble servant,

Jack

dudel
04-10-2010, 15:20
That did it, thanks. I was using the various crayons and brushes. The pencil thingy worked as you described. I'm not allowed to use pencils since they are too sharp. I'm only allowed to use crayons and washable markers.

Yep, they also don't scratch the screen... :supergrin:

You can thicken the pencil line by first clicking on the desired thickness below (but you knew that already).

dudel
04-10-2010, 15:22
Wisky:

After your sound verbal thrashing it occurred to me that I might have been too hasty in my assessment of your posted diagram so I have spent the better part of two hours studying it diligently.

Jack

Jack, you must be a hoot with ink-blots! :supergrin:

Don

WiskyT
04-10-2010, 15:38
Wisky:

After your sound verbal thrashing it occurred to me that I might have been too hasty in my assessment of your posted diagram so I have spent the better part of two hours studying it diligently.

I must admit that my first assessment was indeed incorrect. Nay, incorrect to too meek of a description for such an obvious and unthoughtful error... incompetent blunder would be more apt.

I clearly see now that it does not look like a broken condom, nor an obscene gesture with a specific digit as C4W so crudely implied. I will go so far as to say that that it bears no resemblance what-so-ever to a ring-toss game or a disfigured individual playing with a Hula-Hoop. Non of those visions ever flashed through my mind.

After close scrutiny I must say that it is the finest example of the endless possibilities available in the computer program known as Paint. Your use of complex angles would be a mind boggling challenge to Einstein himself and the imaginative use of every color distinguished by the human eye would cause Michelangelo to hang his head in shame.

In short, I am humbled by your obvious computer acumen and must confess that you communicated the subject of your post with acuity and precision.

Please accept my most sincere apology for being so shortsighted and petty... C4W on the other hand sent me a PM confirming that he meant everything he said. I think he should be banned.

Your humble servant,

Jack

That's all I ask, a little respect. The acceptance by my peers would be wonderful, but I'll just have to settle for respect from my subordinates.

GioaJack
04-10-2010, 18:13
Jack, you must be a hoot with ink-blots! :supergrin:

Don


I don't understand why those psychiatrists keep showing me all those pornographic pictures.



That's all I ask, a little respect. The acceptance by my peers would be wonderful, but I'll just have to settle for respect from my subordinates.


Don't push it there Bucky. :supergrin:

Jack

WiskyT
04-10-2010, 18:41
Don't push it there Bucky.


That's it, the one name I have never been called. I can now die comfortably knowing that I have litteraly been called "every name in the book".

kshutt
04-11-2010, 09:42
What does Dillon say about setting up the sizing die? I screw the die down until it touches the shell plate. That seems to work fine. If you set the die down any firther, you do run the risk of cracking the carbide insert.

This!!!!!!!!

Kwesi
04-11-2010, 17:21
Would those rounds that would not pass the case gauge fit in the gun?

Just finished loading more 9mm after we "turned the sizing die down 1 turn" and endedup with 10 rounds that did not fit in the case gauge. Seven of those fit the G17 just fine. Haven't tried them in the smg but if they fit the Glock they should be fine.

njl
04-11-2010, 17:40
Just finished loading more 9mm after we "turned the sizing die down 1 turn" and endedup with 10 rounds that did not fit in the case gauge. Seven of those fit the G17 just fine. Haven't tried them in the smg but if they fit the Glock they should be fine.

So 3 of them wouldn't even fit the G17 chamber? I was going to ask who's case gage you were using, and if you've checked some factory ammo with it, because I just had Dillon replace a .45acp case gage that wouldn't fit most of the factory Blazer ammo I tried in it (most of my reloads weren't fitting either).

What brands of brass are you using, and are the ones that don't fit all the same headstamp?

What bullets are you using?

Kwesi
04-11-2010, 17:46
So 3 of them wouldn't even fit the G17 chamber? I was going to ask who's case gage you were using, and if you've checked some factory ammo with it, because I just had Dillon replace a .45acp case gage that wouldn't fit most of the factory Blazer ammo I tried in it (most of my reloads weren't fitting either).

What brands of brass are you using, and are the ones that don't fit all the same headstamp?

What bullets are you using?

Dillon case gauge. Factory round fit fine.
Correction: 2/9 rounds did not fit ( one was a .380 mixed in )
CCI and Win headstamp
Precision Delta FMJ bullets

Note: when I stated 2 did not fit in the G17 I was comparing the fit to a factory round.

njl
04-11-2010, 19:22
Note: when I stated 2 did not fit in the G17 I was comparing the fit to a factory round.

What does that mean? Either the rounds will drop in and drop out of the chamber (meaning they fit) or they won't. In the latter case, that would indicate some kind of problem with the brass or cartridge dimensions...especially since Glocks have rather generous chamber dimensions.

ron59
04-11-2010, 20:33
When I'm hand gauging... occasionally a round will not drop in all the way. Taking a small file and rounding off the very base of the case removes any burrs and allows it to fall in.

I don't worry about that with my practice ammo these days, as the Glock has that generous chamber, but I do make sure all my competition ammo fully drops into the gauge.

Kwesi
04-12-2010, 13:46
What does that mean? Either the rounds will drop in and drop out of the chamber (meaning they fit) or they won't. In the latter case, that would indicate some kind of problem with the brass or cartridge dimensions...especially since Glocks have rather generous chamber dimensions.

What I meant was that two of the rounds were protruding a bit higher. I did not load them into a mag and try and chamber them.