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Kegs
04-13-2010, 16:40
Since 200 grain XTPs seem to be backordered everywhere, I guess it's going to have to be 180 XTP.

I'm thinking a maximum load here - something that runs about 1325 fps in a G20 size barrel (actually what I'm going to be using is an extended barrel in my G29 for these rounds).

Anyone use Blue dots to get these puppies flying?

AJE
04-13-2010, 20:36
I run a 6" barrel but I don't have any problem slinging 180gr XTP's about 1400fps using a slightly over max load of Power Pistol.

I tried a slightly over max load of Blue Dot (11.4gr.... max is 11.0) threw the 180gr FMJs at 1381fps average. I'm sure the XTPs will be faster with the same powder charge (they were with the Power Pistol) but I haven't been able to test this load out yet.

The magnum primers made the Blue Dot load slightly hotter and more consistent, whereas the Power Pistol showed a slightly lower velocity with more consistency.

Again, this is out of a 6", so YMMV.

MinervaDoe
04-14-2010, 13:45
:popcorn:

Taterhead
04-14-2010, 21:17
Have you tried a 200 gr WFNGC hardcast like those sold at DT? A healthy charge of A9 with a mag primer might make a pretty decent mountain load. That combo runs pretty will in my pistol.

As far as Blue Dot and 180 gr XTPs, a slightly less-than-max load chronies about 1230 fps in a stock G20. That was measured when it was only about 30 degrees. I imagine a max charge of BD, warmer weather, and a longer barrel may get you closer to your goal.

Kegs
04-15-2010, 05:46
I just realized that after looking at the ballistics, 180 grain xtps are just lame. I found some 200 grainers, and CCI 350 primers. I think I am going to work up to a flat priming nuclear beyond max of blue dot and see what kind of precision I get with the nuke loads. Hoping for 1215 fps or more.

Taterhead
04-15-2010, 19:50
I just realized that after looking at the ballistics, 180 grain xtps are just lame. I found some 200 grainers, and CCI 350 primers. I think I am going to work up to a flat priming nuclear beyond max of blue dot and see what kind of precision I get with the nuke loads. Hoping for 1215 fps or more.

Curious: When you refer to "ballistics," are you referring to internal, external, or terminal?

Kegs
04-15-2010, 20:03
Curious: When you refer to "ballistics," are you referring to internal, external, or terminal?

Good question.

Primarily, I have a tendency to focus on external ballistics, as I know either of the XTP bullets will take care of the impact (penetration and expansion being superb with this design). It's just that when I play out the "recommended maximums", 200g comes out the winner as the muzzle energy is a little higher, but the energy at 50y is a straight up gain. The B.C. of the bullets differ by quite a bit too, but that only plays a small role in the range of hunting large game with a handgun.

The bottom line is that less powder yields more energy with the 200. I think 200 is the optimal weight for a hunting round in the 10mm. The XTP is the best bullet I am aware of out there for this application as well.

Of course one can get more energy out of a 135 or 155 round moving out at very high velocities, but penetration is going to be lacking compared to the higher weight choices.

I need a 200 to fly >/=1215 fps or so to meet the energy figures I am looking for.

Taterhead
04-15-2010, 22:06
I look forward to a full range report.

_The_Shadow
04-15-2010, 22:39
Kegs, its a fine line to get those 200XTP's up to the 1200 fps mark as they will be pushing the emvelope. I load mine with 10.5 grs of Blue Dot, CCI 300, COAL 1.260" and from the 5" S&W1006 these run 1180-1200 fps, expect to see slighty flattened primers with these.

I did have some loads I tried with Power Pistol but I still doing some more testing, but I liked what I seen so far.

Let us know how you make out...Good luck!

Kegs
04-16-2010, 15:21
Original Norma spec was 200gr@1200fps out of a 5" barrel.

I'm really not asking for much more than that...Just a wee bit more. :supergrin:

Waffentomas
04-21-2010, 13:18
I think that using Longshot will get you to 1200, with slightly less pressure. It's what I use for 200s, 180s and 170s when I want some speed.

What the heck are you hunting with these?

Kegs
04-22-2010, 08:29
I think that using Longshot will get you to 1200, with slightly less pressure. It's what I use for 200s, 180s and 170s when I want some speed.

What the heck are you hunting with these?

Eventually, I will be hunting elk. I know a place I get practically right on top of them.
I'm just trying to meet Colorado's handgun hunting specs which is 550 ft./lbs.@50yards.

http://dfuse.us/COhandgunhunting.html

I am 100% confident that a 200gr. xtp will knock an elk down within 50 yards or closer - but meeting the legal requirements is a challenge. It will need a longer barrel (I already know this).

P.S> Cool link. I just got done reading your article. Very nice write up. From a hunting standpoint, 10mm can reach this Colorado spec - but .45 cannot. I might need an extended barrel for the 29 to do what I'm looking for, but you'd need a CARBINE in .45 to equate this, and in close quarters to gambel oak and similar brush found in my "secret elk ambush spot", + walking up steep slopes, cliffy areas, etc. carrying a carbine would be a disadvantage over a pistol.

hill billy
04-22-2010, 11:37
1200 FPS with Blue Dot is easy with 200's I'd have to look at my load when I get home, but I maxed out at an AVG of 1275 and then I just got scared to shoot too many more of them. So I made up all the 200's I had to avg at 1230 or so. 1275 was giving me flatter primers but not what I would consider flattened.

Kegs
04-22-2010, 18:00
1200 FPS with Blue Dot is easy with 200's I'd have to look at my load when I get home, but I maxed out at an AVG of 1275 and then I just got scared to shoot too many more of them. So I made up all the 200's I had to avg at 1230 or so. 1275 was giving me flatter primers but not what I would consider flattened.

Hillbilly- length and maker of barrel? primers? C.O.A.L.? how much of a crimp? How many grains of powder? Are we talking XTPs here? @ what elevation/R.H./temp? 1215 fps is enough, 1230 would be better though!

I don't mind flatter primers.

hill billy
04-22-2010, 22:35
Hillbilly- length and maker of barrel? primers? C.O.A.L.? how much of a crimp? How many grains of powder? Are we talking XTPs here? @ what elevation/R.H./temp? 1215 fps is enough, 1230 would be better though!

I don't mind flatter primers.

Lone Wolf 6" ported barrel, G20sf, Crimped just shy of buckling the brass, I still need to look up the load for you, Berrys bullets, Xtreme plated bullets and Precision Delta FMJ, between 1500 and 4500 FASL, temps from cold to hot, primers are CCI and Win or whatever I have lying around. I'll try and remember and look up my load in the morning.

Waffentomas
04-24-2010, 17:32
Kegs: I have killed a pig and an elk with my 10mm, and in neither case did it knock 'em dead. I'm not saying you shouldn't hunt elk with a 10mm, not at all. Actually, once we have enough elk down at elk camp so everyone has a good supply of meat (which isn't always, but has happened) I go out and hunt elk with my Glock 20 with 6" barrel. Just don't expect too much. I killed him with a 200gr Black Talon, (I have lots). I pulled the bullets of a box and loaded them up so it does just over 1200fps from the 6". He ran about 75 yards at a full gallop after I hit him, at 55 yards, give or take a foot. It was a shot that went in just behind the shoulder and hit a lung and some other stuff, but he really didn't even seem like he'd been hit. Still, he died, and I ate.

I wouldn't get to upset not finding 200gr XTPs, as those 180s will do fine.

Good luck hunting.

Kegs
04-24-2010, 19:29
I wouldn't get to upset not finding 200gr XTPs, as those 180s will do fine.

Good luck hunting.

I found 3 boxes (300) of the 200 grainers, so I am good to go for a little while.

You have "a lot" of 10mm/.40 black talons? :shocked: That's impressive! I don't think many other people have to many anymore.

Waffentomas
04-24-2010, 23:24
I have over 30 boxes - though I've pulled the bullets and reloaded nearly 1/2.

MikeS.
04-27-2010, 22:17
Black Talons, I actually found a box of 50 factory rounds buried in my safe last week.

I've been using 180grn XTPs for hunting whitetail for several years now.

Taterhead
04-29-2010, 18:06
I found 3 boxes (300) of the 200 grainers, so I am good to go for a little while.

Where did you track down the 200 grain XTPs? I have not seen them in a while.

Kegs
05-01-2010, 15:50
Where did you track down the 200 grain XTPs? I have not seen them in a while.

GOOD QUESTION! I actually found them thanks to a glocktalk member shooting me a private message regarding precision reloading. I bought the last 3 boxes they had.

For now I am not reloading as I am waiting to obtain an aftermarket barrel before I reload again.

Taterhead
05-04-2010, 23:04
What type of barrel are you going to get, if you don't mind me asking?

MakeMineA10mm
05-05-2010, 17:40
Black Talons, I actually found a box of 50 factory rounds buried in my safe last week.

I like Black Talons a lot, but unless you pull them and reload them, you're only getting something a tiny bit more powerful than an FBI load (a.k.a. 40S&W+P), as they are a 200gr @ ~950-1050fps (20grs heavier bullet @ ~50fps faster than a standard 40S&W).

I've pulled a few of mine and loaded them over a very similar (.3grs lower) charge of AA#9 as I use for the 200gr Hornady XTP, and they basically turn inside out with the "talons" folded back under the base of the bullet (pointing outwards toward the rear) at the end of their travel through the capture tank at the crime lab.

Considering their over-expansion characteristics at the higher velocities, I prefer to use the more easily available XTPs for any big game, because they tend to penetrate better at the top speeds of the 10mm, and I like penetration in combination with expansion.

Original Norma spec was 200gr@1200fps out of a 5" barrel.

I'm really not asking for much more than that...Just a wee bit more. :supergrin:

But keep in mind that the original Norma 200gr load was an FMJ, NOT a JHP. For the same weight, a JHP will seat deeper into the case than an FMJ, and this will raise pressures. It's very unrealistic, considering we're at the ragged edge of top-end pressure with this set-up, to expect to safely beat the factory ballistics with the handicap of deeper seating (which in and of itself increases pressures, if all other factors remain the same).

Be happy with 1175fps or so. You, nor your game will tell any difference between the same bullet at 1175 and 1225, but if your gun goes kaBOOM, you'll know! :whistling:


Now that we know you're thinking of Elk as your target animal, you should also consider that with game that large and strong, you should consider the need for penetration vs. expansion. If it were me, I'd use a 200-220gr WFN for Elk with the 10mm. 10mm is at the very bottom of acceptable calibers for Elk, IMO, and Elmer Keith would say you need to err on the side of penetration.

Taterhead
05-05-2010, 18:39
Eventually, I will be hunting elk. I know a place I get practically right on top of them.
I'm just trying to meet Colorado's handgun hunting specs which is 550 ft./lbs.@50yards.

http://dfuse.us/COhandgunhunting.html

I am 100% confident that a 200gr. xtp will knock an elk down within 50 yards or closer - but meeting the legal requirements is a challenge. It will need a longer barrel (I already know this).

P.S> Cool link. I just got done reading your article. Very nice write up. From a hunting standpoint, 10mm can reach this Colorado spec - but .45 cannot. I might need an extended barrel for the 29 to do what I'm looking for, but you'd need a CARBINE in .45 to equate this, and in close quarters to gambel oak and similar brush found in my "secret elk ambush spot", + walking up steep slopes, cliffy areas, etc. carrying a carbine would be a disadvantage over a pistol.

You've probably already run the calcs, but I was curious myself. I ran some calcs and it looks like you are right that a longer barrel may be needed to get the required energy at 50 yards. A 200 gr XTP has a bc of .199. With a MV of 1170 (the fastest of published data out there using 5" barrel) yields retained energy of 527 lb/ft @ 50 yards. I ran the calcs with atmospherics similar to my area.

1215 fps would just get you there at 50 yards. Looks like about a 22" drop at that distance too.

I have had faster velocities with a 200 gr WFNGC hardcast than with XTPs. The pressure/velocity curve seems to track somewhere between a 180 gr XTP and 200 gr XTP.

Like MMA10 mentioned earlier, it may be a better penetrator than the XTP. Those are hard buggers too. I do not hunt anything but paper, cardboard, or steel; but I imagine that wide square flat point would be a pretty devastating projectile on flesh. I have no idea what a BC would be for that bullet, so running trajectory tables might be iffy. If it is .150, then a MV of 1240 will get you there. My standard G20 barrel is getting 1205 fps so a 6" barrel may move that into a velocity that would permit lawful hunting.

FWIW, I ran the numbers for the 180 gr XTP. That would require an MV of about 1310 to have > 550 lb/ft of retained energy @ 50 yards. Probably doable with a longer barrel and the right powder.

Retired Squid
05-08-2010, 19:42
Man if you want to hunt with 10mm go to hard cast lead in a SWC or RN lead. The round nose HC should have better BC then any available JHP and better penetration to boot.

But with small WT deer the JHP might do pretty good, but I would go with the HC/LSW in my Smith's and HC/RN in my G20 and for sure the Colt DE with a two piece feed ramp.

Wildcat55
06-06-2010, 22:52
All the bullets above are good. Most anything that will penitrate deep enough will work. The trick is that it's all about bullet placement.

Mountain10mm
06-29-2010, 08:30
Hopefully this post isn't dead, it is a good topic.

Kegs, I'm in CO too, where are you?

I understand your situation very well. I used to load Hornady 200gr. FMJ and 200gr. HP XTPs until they stopped producing them. I still have a few boxes left, but have switched to 180 grain because I didn't want to waste time perfecting a 200 grain load only to have the bullet supply disappear. I have gotten a five shot average of 1267fps with a 200gr. FMJ out of a Jarvis 5.5" barrel. That should meet the 550ft.lbs. requirement. It's 14.0 grains of #9 in a nickel plated, starline case, CCI 300 primer.

However, I have been having problems with that load and the gun cycling properly. The slide speed seems to be too fast that it appears to return to battery faster than the magazine can deliver the next round. I've tried new Glock recoil springs and 20lb aftermarket springs, but they only lessened the problem. I also tried brand new magazines, same thing. I really like keeping Glocks stock so I tried a different round/load.

With a 180gr. XTP I can easily get 1240-1260fps out of a stock Glock barrel with no jams. It's reliable and accurate. At 1254fps, that's 627ft.lbs. of energy, which may make the cut at 50 yards. The only way to know for sure is to chronograph it at 50 yards. (I'd probably cover my chronograph with a steel plate at that distance just in case I missed.)

I like having a G20 as a backup during elk hunting (I have a small game tag too). It sounds like you want to use yours as a primary gun during elk season is that correct?

Kegs
07-12-2010, 08:44
Hopefully this post isn't dead, it is a good topic.

Kegs, I'm in CO too, where are you?

I'm a non-resident, but I like to hunt up near Aspen.


I like having a G20 as a backup during elk hunting (I have a small game tag too). It sounds like you want to use yours as a primary gun during elk season is that correct?

Yes, that is correct. I went from using a .300 win mag a-bolt to a Thompson center encore in .270 to arriving at the idea the 10mm is enough gun for bow-hunting range shots - which is pretty easy in the places I hunt (I'm not up in the open). I think it's plenty gun with the 200g bullet @ the higher velocities.

nickE10mm
07-13-2010, 20:00
Hopefully this post isn't dead, it is a good topic.
...However, I have been having problems with that load and the gun cycling properly. The slide speed seems to be too fast that it appears to return to battery faster than the magazine can deliver the next round. I've tried new Glock recoil springs and 20lb aftermarket springs, but they only lessened the problem. I also tried brand new magazines, same thing. I really like keeping Glocks stock so I tried a different round/load.


Hey there... was just wondering if you've put Wolff mag springs into your mags...?

Simply replacing the Glock mags will get you fresh "stock" springs but won't be any faster at getting that next round up into place for the fast slide movement. Wolff makes the +% springs (either 5% or 10%) that are MUCH better for hot rodding loads than stock springs. I've put them in my 10mm Glocks for a long while with great success.

MSgt Dotson
07-14-2010, 09:33
I am 100% confident that a 200gr. xtp will knock an elk down within 50 yards or closer - but meeting the legal requirements is a challenge. It will need a longer barrel (I already know this).
.

'Knock down' an elk? One week later does not count.

I think you are underestimating an elk (unless limiting yourself to 250 lb specimens, which seems a waste of a legal elk tag), and overestimating your handguns penetration abilities....an expanding bullet of any type only aggravates the problem.

If absolutely forced to use a handgun for elk, it would/should not be with a 10mm, and, it would be using hard cast bullets likely in heavy .45 Colt or .454/460 specimens.

Kegs
07-14-2010, 19:19
'Knock down' an elk? One week later does not count.

I think you are underestimating an elk (unless limiting yourself to 250 lb specimens, which seems a waste of a legal elk tag), and overestimating your handguns penetration abilities....an expanding bullet of any type only aggravates the problem.

If absolutely forced to use a handgun for elk, it would/should not be with a 10mm, and, it would be using hard cast bullets likely in heavy .45 Colt or .454/460 specimens.

Yeah, an elk is made of solid concrete and rebar. You might as well use a tank.

:rofl:

They are tough, they are big, but they are not so big and tough that they can walk around with half inch holes nearly through them. The 200 grain XTP is a very solid, bonded bullet. Have you worked with them much? 10mm with 200 grain XTP @ maximum speed (and by this, I do not mean sticking to saami specs) has an almost ideal mix of penetration and expansion. At the bowhunting distances I plan on hunting, I have 100% confidence a big 1200# bull will not be moving very far with one of these in the boilermaker.

nickE10mm
07-14-2010, 19:27
Yeah, an elk is made of solid concrete and rebar. You might as well use a tank.

:rofl:

They are tough, they are big, but they are not so big and tough that they can walk around with half inch holes nearly through them. The 200 grain XTP is a very solid, bonded bullet. Have you worked with them much? 10mm with 200 grain XTP @ maximum speed (and by this, I do not mean sticking to saami specs) has an almost ideal mix of penetration and expansion. At the bowhunting distances I plan on hunting, I have 100% confidence a big 1200# bull will not be moving very far with one of these in the boilermaker.

Hey Kegs,

just to clarify, the XTP isn't bonded.

That being said, I agree, you should be fine if you stay close up and perfect placement. Shoot twice if you think it's necessary to keep him down.

-nick

Kegs
07-14-2010, 19:34
Hey Kegs,

just to clarify, the XTP isn't bonded.

That being said, I agree, you should be fine if you stay close up and perfect placement. Shoot twice if you think it's necessary to keep him down.

-nick

Sorry I meant jacketed - the jacket is very difficult to remove from the lead shooting it, at least that's what I've found - and it will penetrate very well.

nickE10mm
07-14-2010, 19:38
Sorry I meant jacketed - the jacket is very difficult to remove from the lead shooting it, at least that's what I've found - and it will penetrate very well.

I get jacket/core separation quite often with the XTP but what we need to realize is that the IMPORTANT part is what the bullet does BEFORE separation occurs. The only time I've lost a jacket is after the bullet / jacket combination have already done their penetration and damage.

:)

the 200gr XTP's penetrate like demons on deer I'll tell you that...