Why I use the Lee FCCD [Archive] - Glock Talk

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dudel
04-13-2010, 18:17
Prodded by Fred's post, I thought I'd put up one my target results.

I keep hearing about how the Lee Carbide Crimp die is so bad with lead, that I figured I post some of what I see. This is a light load 38 Spl with a 148gr WC (Lee cast DEWC water dropped, un sized, tumbled lubed with LLA from scrap alloy consisting mostly of stickon WW with some clipon WW). The gun is a T/C Contender in 10" from a rest with open sights at 25yds indoors.

The group *might* have been tighter without the use of the Lee CCD; but I doubt too many people are going to complain about the accuracy. I'm not sure I could do much better.

fredj338
04-13-2010, 19:07
Prodded by Fred's post, I thought I'd put up one my target results.

I keep hearing about how the Lee Carbide Crimp die is so bad with lead, that I figured I post some of what I see. This is a light load 38 Spl with a 148gr WC (Lee cast DEWC water dropped, un sized, tumbled lubed with LLA from scrap alloy consisting mostly of stickon WW with some clipon WW). The gun is a T/C Contender in 10" from a rest with open sights at 25yds indoors.

The group *might* have been tighter without the use of the Lee CCD; but I doubt too many people are going to complain about the accuracy. I'm not sure I could do much better.

i didn;t see much accuracy diff using a hard cast bullet. It's possible that there is little spring back or deformation of a harder bullet. Notice though, the plated, being soft lead, didn't seem to like the LFCD. I am going to run another test & include soft cast LHP. We'll get to the bottom of this whole LFCD thing.:supergrin:

Colorado4Wheel
04-13-2010, 19:20
Prodded by Fred's post, I thought I'd put up one my target results.

I keep hearing about how the Lee Carbide Crimp die is so bad with lead, that I figured I post some of what I see. This is a light load 38 Spl with a 148gr WC (Lee cast DEWC water dropped, un sized, tumbled lubed with LLA from scrap alloy consisting mostly of stickon WW with some clipon WW). The gun is a T/C Contender in 10" from a rest with open sights at 25yds indoors.

The group *might* have been tighter without the use of the Lee CCD; but I doubt too many people are going to complain about the accuracy. I'm not sure I could do much better.

You do realize "people" are saying to measure the die and check it for yourself NOT that they totally will ruin your ammo if you use one? BIG difference. I could post a target of my 10mm stuff that gets sized but whats the point. No one actually pays any attention once you mention the FCD around here.

steve4102
04-13-2010, 19:57
I have only been loading handgun ammo since Jan 09, I have used the LFCD on everything I have loaded so far. Jacketed, Lead and Plated, duno if my loads would be more accurate without the LFCD, but I am planing a test soon.


I do most of my shooting off a bag at 20-25 yards. I've been having good luck accuracy wise with every thing except the Rainer 115gr Plated in my 9MM. Maybe it's the crimp, duno, I'll find out soon.

I only shoot lead in my 45 ACPs. So far I have had no major leading issues and accuracy is good using the LFCD.

5 rounds from my DW PM-7 with 4.9gr WST and 200gr Missouri LSWC.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/steve4102/7BOB200SWC.jpg

mteagle1
04-14-2010, 10:40
I am not sure why other people use a Lee Factory Crimp Die but I use it so I am sure every round will drop in the barrel and fire. Reloading on a Dillon 550 and turning out 1000's of practice rounds I can not/will not check every round in a case guage to see if it fit in a chamber/cyclinder. Accuracy is obtained from using the right amount and type of powder and the crimp is more a removal of the bell needed to get the bullet into the case. Last recorded crimp for a 45ACP was .471 and the last 1000 plated .40's were .421. The 40 S&W's for a match were checked with only 4 failures to case guage all the same brand from range pickups. They were for a steel match were I had planned to not pick up brass.

DoctaGlockta
04-14-2010, 13:41
If it goes bang and makes a hole close to where I aim it I'm good.

Whether that be with a FCD or not.

Stop the insanity.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/pilots/2008/03/medium_susanbuild02-vi.jpg

Errrr.... except for rifle - I always use one :)

RustyFN
04-14-2010, 18:07
I am not sure why other people use a Lee Factory Crimp Die but I use it so I am sure every round will drop in the barrel and fire. Reloading on a Dillon 550 and turning out 1000's of practice rounds I can not/will not check every round in a case guage to see if it fit in a chamber/cyclinder.

Yea we have a winner. That is the exact same thing I use the FCD for. I have been trying to tell everybody that but some times it seems like nobody hears. To me a case gage is a waste of time. It won't tell me if the OAL is too long, you need the barrel for that. If a round won't chamber it is easy enough to figure out the problem without one.

fredj338
04-14-2010, 23:08
Yea we have a winner. That is the exact same thing I use the FCD for. I have been trying to tell everybody that but some times it seems like nobody hears. To me a case gage is a waste of time. It won't tell me if the OAL is too long, you need the barrel for that. If a round won't chamber it is easy enough to figure out the problem without one.

True Rusty, but once the correct OAL is established in your bbl, the case gage tells you if the round will chamber correctly. I wanted to give the LFCD a fair try, hate to be missing something, but so far, I don't feel I am. If I had it, I would use it for hard lead or jacketed, but the drop off in accuracy w/ plated would have me leave it in the box.:wavey:

Colorado4Wheel
04-15-2010, 07:16
Thats the crux of the issue. Some people have issues with the FCD and some don't. It's crazy that people that don't have issues dismiss the people who do have issues and that people who do have issues don't listen to those that don't. It's not a absolute. All I have said from the beginning is that the FCD has the possibility of sizing your rounds and tried to help people understand how to figure out if they could be sizing your rounds. People get all defensive in the process. Thats just crazy. BTW, my new lead bullet combo in 9mm is big enough that it would likely get sized by the FCD. Getting people to actually dial caliper these things is one of the hardest thing I have ever seen on a forum. Jeez. Pull out your dial calipers and just measure the damn thing.

mteagle1
04-15-2010, 09:57
My .45's with Precision or Black Bullet International go through the same FCD die but the Precision has an OAL of 1.220 because of the flat nose ogive while the BBI are 1.260. Guns are also different the Precisions go through 1911's and a Para, the BBI's in a S&W 625. My way of telling loads apart.

Uncle Don
04-15-2010, 10:04
Yea we have a winner. That is the exact same thing I use the FCD for. I have been trying to tell everybody that but some times it seems like nobody hears. To me a case gage is a waste of time. It won't tell me if the OAL is too long, you need the barrel for that. If a round won't chamber it is easy enough to figure out the problem without one.


I've heard you for along time Rusty - because I use it for the same reason. Any accuracy increase would be icing on the case, but I'm simply not going to be one of those that keep dropping cases into a gauge - seems completely silly to me.

XDRoX
04-15-2010, 10:30
I've heard you for along time Rusty - because I use it for the same reason. Any accuracy increase would be icing on the case, but I'm simply not going to be one of those that keep dropping cases into a gauge - seems completely silly to me.

I'm new to reloading and have a question about case gauging.
So far I have loaded over 1500 rounds without a case gauge or a LFCD. After my first round in a new batch I drop it in the barrel to make sure it goes all the way in and falls out easily. I assume if I was using a case gauge I would basically do the same thing.

Question: Why would I have to worry about some cases not passing the case gauge test? Aren't they all going through the same dies? Isn't the job of the dies to correctly size the case?

If so, then why would another sizing die (LFCD) at the end of the reloading process fix this?

I guess I'm confused about two things. Why do some rounds not case gauge? And what is the LFCD doing that my 3 die sets aren't?

Thanks

Uncle Don
04-15-2010, 11:51
XD,

The value of the fcd is hotley debated. Actual fact is that it is not required and if you are having perfect luck with your three die set, then you are good to go. There are two different types of factory crimp dies - two different types for handgun cartridges that have the carbide sizing ring (one produces a roll crimp for revolver calibers and taper for semi-auto calibers) The second style are those for rifle that use a collet that crimps the top portion of the case and those don't have a carbide sizer.

Some, including myself find it a beneficial die. Some like the fact that it post sizes so the final stage of loading puts the full cartridge through a sizer which means that it will chamber without any concerns. I like it because I often use several different types of bullets and don't want to change my seating/crimping die - therefore using the fcd to crimp leaves my third die to only seat the bullet. Under those circumstances, that can easily be done by the adjustment knob. I've not had occasion to "need" the post sizing, but I also know that the cartridge will chamber without having to use a case gauge or even the bbl to check it. Depending on the circumstances, they can increase accuracy due to each round having to have the same pressure to release the bullet. Consistency helps lead to accuracy. Improper adjustment of the die can naturally subvert any potential benefit, but no one ever admits to being one of those people.

The other crowd belives it is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and think the rest of us "need" it because we are somehow making a mistake earlier in the process that needs fixed at the end. Some believe the measurements cause bullets to deform and contest that they degrade accuracy. In the end, it is a tool in which you need to make the decision as to whether it enhances your reloading experience or not. I would highly recommend trying it yourself and coming to your own conclusion regardless of what it is. Don't let any of us convince you by words alone.

GioaJack
04-15-2010, 12:12
XD,

The value of the fcd is hotley debated. Actual fact is that it is not required and if you are having perfect luck with your three die set, then you are good to go. There are two different types of factory crimp dies - two different types for handgun cartridges that have the carbide sizing ring (one produces a roll crimp for revolver calibers and taper for semi-auto calibers) The second style are those for rifle that use a collet that crimps the top portion of the case and those don't have a carbide sizer.

Some, including myself find it a beneficial die. Some like the fact that it post sizes so the final stage of loading puts the full cartridge through a sizer which means that it will chamber without any concerns. I like it because I often use several different types of bullets and don't want to change my seating/crimping die - therefore using the fcd to crimp leaves my third die to only seat the bullet. Under those circumstances, that can easily be done by the adjustment knob. I've not had occasion to "need" the post sizing, but I also know that the cartridge will chamber without having to use a case gauge or even the bbl to check it. Depending on the circumstances, they can increase accuracy due to each round having to have the same pressure to release the bullet. Consistency helps lead to accuracy. Improper adjustment of the die can naturally subvert any potential benefit, but no one ever admits to being one of those people.

The other crowd belives it is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and think the rest of us "need" it because we are somehow making a mistake earlier in the process that needs fixed at the end. Some believe the measurements cause bullets to deform and contest that they degrade accuracy. In the end, it is a tool in which you need to make the decision as to whether it enhances your reloading experience or not. I would highly recommend trying it yourself and coming to your own conclusion regardless of what it is. Don't let any of us convince you by words alone.



Good post, very level headed, articulately written.

Jack

fredj338
04-15-2010, 13:03
I'm new to reloading and have a question about case gauging.
So far I have loaded over 1500 rounds without a case gauge or a LFCD. After my first round in a new batch I drop it in the barrel to make sure it goes all the way in and falls out easily. I assume if I was using a case gauge I would basically do the same thing.

Question: Why would I have to worry about some cases not passing the case gauge test? Aren't they all going through the same dies? Isn't the job of the dies to correctly size the case?

If so, then why would another sizing die (LFCD) at the end of the reloading process fix this?

I guess I'm confused about two things. Why do some rounds not case gauge? And what is the LFCD doing that my 3 die sets aren't?

Thanks
If you used all the same brass & bullets, it is unlikely that you would have a problem w/ your ammo. I never had case gages until this year, never needed the LFCD either. I shoot mixed brass, never sort, all kinds of diff bullets style. Occasionally, a case comes up that is out of spec.
If the case is very thick, once you put a bullet in it, seat it & crimp it, it is the dia it is. Some brass springs back a bit more than others. Number of firings, brand of brass, etc. All this can make for rounds that will become out of spec AFTER seating the bullet. The idea of the LFCD is to resize after bullet seating. Again, IMO, more of an issue since peopel started loading for their Glocks. If it makes anyone happy to use the LFCD, great, I just get tired of hearing, that it's necessary to make reliable, accurate ammo, which it is not.:dunno: Your ammo may be mnore reliable, but may also be less accurate. For IDPA/under 15yds, the loss of some accuracy may be unimportant vs making sure all your rounds chamber & fire.

XDRoX
04-15-2010, 13:35
XD,

The value of the fcd is hotley debated. Actual fact is that it is not required and if you are having perfect luck with your three die set, then you are good to go. There are two different types of factory crimp dies - two different types for handgun cartridges that have the carbide sizing ring (one produces a roll crimp for revolver calibers and taper for semi-auto calibers) The second style are those for rifle that use a collet that crimps the top portion of the case and those don't have a carbide sizer.

Some, including myself find it a beneficial die. Some like the fact that it post sizes so the final stage of loading puts the full cartridge through a sizer which means that it will chamber without any concerns. I like it because I often use several different types of bullets and don't want to change my seating/crimping die - therefore using the fcd to crimp leaves my third die to only seat the bullet. Under those circumstances, that can easily be done by the adjustment knob. I've not had occasion to "need" the post sizing, but I also know that the cartridge will chamber without having to use a case gauge or even the bbl to check it. Depending on the circumstances, they can increase accuracy due to each round having to have the same pressure to release the bullet. Consistency helps lead to accuracy. Improper adjustment of the die can naturally subvert any potential benefit, but no one ever admits to being one of those people.

The other crowd belives it is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and think the rest of us "need" it because we are somehow making a mistake earlier in the process that needs fixed at the end. Some believe the measurements cause bullets to deform and contest that they degrade accuracy. In the end, it is a tool in which you need to make the decision as to whether it enhances your reloading experience or not. I would highly recommend trying it yourself and coming to your own conclusion regardless of what it is. Don't let any of us convince you by words alone.

Very informative, thanks.

If you used all the same brass & bullets, it is unlikely that you would have a problem w/ your ammo. I never had case gages until this year, never needed the LFCD either. I shoot mixed brass, never sort, all kinds of diff bullets style. Occasionally, a case comes up that is out of spec.
If the case is very thick, once you put a bullet in it, seat it & crimp it, it is the dia it is. Some brass springs back a bit more than others. Number of firings, brand of brass, etc. All this can make for rounds that will become out of spec AFTER seating the bullet. The idea of the LFCD is to resize after bullet seating. Again, IMO, more of an issue since peopel started loading for their Glocks. If it makes anyone happy to use the LFCD, great, I just get tired of hearing, that it's necessary to make reliable, accurate ammo, which it is not.:dunno: Your ammo may be mnore reliable, but may also be less accurate. For IDPA/under 15yds, the loss of some accuracy may be unimportant vs making sure all your rounds chamber & fire.

This answers my question of why some rounds won't chamber after all the reloading is done. Thanks Fred.

Colorado4Wheel
04-15-2010, 15:16
I've heard you for along time Rusty - because I use it for the same reason. Any accuracy increase would be icing on the case, but I'm simply not going to be one of those that keep dropping cases into a gauge - seems completely silly to me.


So is loosing a match or stage because you didn't want to take 10 mins to case gauge the ammo.

dudel
04-15-2010, 15:36
+1 for Uncle Don's post. Clear and consise.

If you haven't made up your own mind yet, for $10 you can get one, try it, and come to your own decision. It's not going to break the bank; and there are enough out there who would buy it if you sold it. Heck, you could probably sell it on eBay and make a profit! :supergrin:

Don

XD,

The value of the fcd is hotley debated. Actual fact is that it is not required and if you are having perfect luck with your three die set, then you are good to go. There are two different types of factory crimp dies - two different types for handgun cartridges that have the carbide sizing ring (one produces a roll crimp for revolver calibers and taper for semi-auto calibers) The second style are those for rifle that use a collet that crimps the top portion of the case and those don't have a carbide sizer.

Some, including myself find it a beneficial die. Some like the fact that it post sizes so the final stage of loading puts the full cartridge through a sizer which means that it will chamber without any concerns. I like it because I often use several different types of bullets and don't want to change my seating/crimping die - therefore using the fcd to crimp leaves my third die to only seat the bullet. Under those circumstances, that can easily be done by the adjustment knob. I've not had occasion to "need" the post sizing, but I also know that the cartridge will chamber without having to use a case gauge or even the bbl to check it. Depending on the circumstances, they can increase accuracy due to each round having to have the same pressure to release the bullet. Consistency helps lead to accuracy. Improper adjustment of the die can naturally subvert any potential benefit, but no one ever admits to being one of those people.

The other crowd belives it is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and think the rest of us "need" it because we are somehow making a mistake earlier in the process that needs fixed at the end. Some believe the measurements cause bullets to deform and contest that they degrade accuracy. In the end, it is a tool in which you need to make the decision as to whether it enhances your reloading experience or not. I would highly recommend trying it yourself and coming to your own conclusion regardless of what it is. Don't let any of us convince you by words alone.

dudel
04-15-2010, 15:42
Your ammo may be mnore reliable, but may also be less accurate. For IDPA/under 15yds, the loss of some accuracy may be unimportant vs making sure all your rounds chamber & fire.

Good point Fred. At 15yrds, IPDA puts more emphasis on reliable feeding and firing than 300 yd benchrest does. I agree with Uncle Don's point as well. Seems strange to go progressive to crank out lots of rounds; only to go single stage to case guage each one.

Besides if if your technique is so good that you don't need the FCCD, then the rounds will just slide through without any effect from the sizing ring. If on the other hand you feel one that is getting sized, deal with it the same way you would if it didn't fit the case guage. Again, you've solved the neeed to case guage.

tjpet
04-15-2010, 15:44
I'm in the "don't need it camp."

Having loaded God-knows-how-many 9mm, 40S&W, and .45ACP rounds over the last 40 years through a variety of firearms, I've yet to see a need for such an item. If your resizing die is set up properly and you're taper crimping I still can't see the reason for the FCD except to cover a bit of sloppy reloading.

RustyFN
04-15-2010, 16:54
True Rusty, but once the correct OAL is established in your bbl, the case gage tells you if the round will chamber correctly.

I'm with you Fred. But the FCD will do the same thing without having to spend the extra time after you are done loading to sit there and gage them all. That's all I'm trying to say. Also I wasn't singling out you and Steve. You two have given a lot of good and valuable information and I'm looking forward to seeing more results from your accuracy testing.

So is loosing a match or stage because you didn't want to take 10 mins to case gauge the ammo.

I don't understand what more a case gage is going to do for me that I don't already do without wasting the extra time. I have been reloading and shooting competition four years and have never had an ammo malfunction and have never used a case gage. I have been using the FCD as a case gage and have never had a problem with ammo using that method. Besides I can lose a match just fine with good ammo.:rofl:

Uncle Don
04-15-2010, 17:21
So is loosing a match or stage because you didn't want to take 10 mins to case gauge the ammo.

It simply isn't necessary. Speaking only for myself, I don't remember an occasion when a round didn't work that had been through the die - .

I caught a bunch of backlash once when I said that I never check my loads periodically with a scale either. I stand by that in regard to the discs on the Pro Auto Disk. A fixed disc can't overcharge, much the same as I don't know anyone that checks their shotgun loader once they put the proper bushing in.

If you are comfortable using a gauge - great, and I'm not going to try and talk you out of it. I subscribe to another method and it works for me - and I simply ask that you accept that there is more than one way to arrive at the same result.

fredj338
04-15-2010, 17:30
Good point Fred. At 15yrds, IPDA puts more emphasis on reliable feeding and firing than 300 yd benchrest does. I agree with Uncle Don's point as well. Seems strange to go progressive to crank out lots of rounds; only to go single stage to case guage each one.

Besides if if your technique is so good that you don't need the FCCD, then the rounds will just slide through without any effect from the sizing ring. If on the other hand you feel one that is getting sized, deal with it the same way you would if it didn't fit the case guage. Again, you've solved the neeed to case guage.

In my little test, only the lead bullet & plated bullets (0.452") took any sizing. The jacketed never touched (0.451"). All the same brass.
I will admit to not gaging all my ammo for a match. I check the odd handful from a run. During a match, if I get a case that doesn't feed right, it becomes a malfunction drill. I do not shoot IDPA/IPSC to be the winner, just to improve my shooting. Even when I shot CAS, & won quite a bit, I shoot for fun & to improve my skills (no gamer loads, gimicks or gadgets). WHile the accuracy diff is yet to be determined absolutely, I would not want to give up 1" accuracy @ 15yds for 3" all things being the same (ie, reliable ammo). If it aint broke don't fix it. Again I have no issue w/ the tool, just the attitude some newbs & even older reloaders, that it's the only way to make reliable/accurate ammo.:dunno: Really, what did we all do before the LCFD?

G36_Me
04-15-2010, 18:47
OK, my opinion.
I use the LFCD on all my .45 ACP reloads.

What got me started? My Rainier 230 gr plated round nose bullets were shaving the plating when my dies were adjusted 'just right'. I got the LFCD to solve the problem, and it did. I used the 3rd die to seat and micro crimp, then applied the crimp die to finish the process. Result: perfect and beautiful bullets that shot great.

Then I figured out the best process for me (stress for me). Remember I only use one for my 45 ACP. Also, I like to load up many different 45 ACP types of bullets. I never adjust the 3rd die big ring to manage crimp, too much of a hassle; I only adjust the seating depth on the third die, only takes a second.

Then I finish the process with the LFCD.

It works for me and I'm sticking with it for a while, given my style of reloading.
I load probably 3-500 rounds per week on the same old single stage press I've had forever. Started reloading again about 18 mos ago when I got back into the sport after an absence of many years.

D. Manley
04-15-2010, 18:52
While I have no particular problem with the FCD (I do own 4 of them), I still run my rounds through case gauges. The FCD don't do anything to catch the #1 problem I encounter particularly in .45...extraction burrs on the case rim and them suckers will lock a gun up tight. It don't take much more time to case gauge a hundred rounds than it takes to load a primer tube. All these FCD threads seem to acquire a life of their own, I've not seen anything quite like it. Just MHO, but I personally consider the EGW U-Dies (http://egw-guns.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=40&zenid=daefae11c5689a3c57fd8ee701f58d41) (made by LEE) to be of more value to the average reloader than the FCD.

Colorado4Wheel
04-15-2010, 20:46
It simply isn't necessary. Speaking only for myself, I don't remember an occasion when a round didn't work that had been through the die - .

I caught a bunch of backlash once when I said that I never check my loads periodically with a scale either. I stand by that in regard to the discs on the Pro Auto Disk. A fixed disc can't overcharge, much the same as I don't know anyone that checks their shotgun loader once they put the proper bushing in.

If you are comfortable using a gauge - great, and I'm not going to try and talk you out of it. I subscribe to another method and it works for me - and I simply ask that you accept that there is more than one way to arrive at the same result.

It just depends a great deal on what you are loading. I wouldn't worry for a second about running my 124 gr MG bullets in a match with out a case gauge. Because I am using a Glock Barrel and bullets that seem to just want to seat perfectly. BUT, I will never forget the day of a match that I had NOT case gauged my ammo. I brought the gauge with me just because. I was using my new Hornady Seating Die with the fancy "in line seater" I had a 20% fail rate all of a sudden. Thankfully I had made double what I needed for the match so I still had enough. It was a combination of .38Super Zero bullets and that silly die. Make the same ammo with my trusty Lee Seating die and I had zero (no pun intended) issues. Hornady die hated those bullets. Of those 20% that failed about 10 malfunctioned the gun with the Glock barrel. Now that I am make lead bullets that are oversized and shooting in a KKM barrel I am getting more cases that fail the case gauge in a month then I would in a year of loading Jacketed. Sometimes I case gauge my practice ammo. Sometimes I don't. I wouldn't think about shooting them in a match with out case gaugeing them. No freaking way. Get a lead bullet a little sideways in a case and jam that in a KKM barrel and you need about 60 second to clear that jam. The case gauge sits next to my bench while I load. Anything that doesn't feel perfect gets grabbed before it's ejected and goes in the case gauge.

kcbrown
04-16-2010, 01:35
If you used all the same brass & bullets, it is unlikely that you would have a problem w/ your ammo. I never had case gages until this year, never needed the LFCD either. I shoot mixed brass, never sort, all kinds of diff bullets style. Occasionally, a case comes up that is out of spec.
If the case is very thick, once you put a bullet in it, seat it & crimp it, it is the dia it is. Some brass springs back a bit more than others. Number of firings, brand of brass, etc. All this can make for rounds that will become out of spec AFTER seating the bullet.


If the brass manages to spring back that much after a full-length resizing operation, there's no way the FCD will be able to fix it.

Why? Because the FCD doesn't size the case down as much as the sizing die does. It assumes a certain amount of springback from the brass and sizes down just enough below SAAMI spec to account for that springback (so the resulting round will be right at SAAMI spec, or very close to it).

So in the situation Fred talks about above, the round would fail the case gauge even after being passed through the FCD.

Where I believe the FCD is most valuable is when you're using a sizing die that can't size as far down the case as the FCD can. The primary example I can think of is the Dillon sizing die, which has enough in the way of advantages over the Lee sizing die that I find it to be worth using despite the fact that it won't size as far down the case. Benefits I've found from it include the spring-loaded decapping pin (which prevents the pin from breaking on difficult-to-decap cases while allowing continued use of the die without a stoppage, and is very easily removable simply by unscrewing the top of the die), the wide flared mouth opening that allows resizing of already-flared brass and, generally, a wider variety of brass, and (in my experience), the lower force required to size a case.

I wouldn't hesitate to use it on 9mm cases, although I'm surprised to hear that C4W has actually managed to make bullets so large that they might get swaged by his 9mm FCD. That's quite an accomplishment, and a testament to his skill at casting boolits. :faint: :supergrin:

Colorado4Wheel
04-16-2010, 11:29
I wouldn't hesitate to use it on 9mm cases, although I'm surprised to hear that C4W has actually managed to make bullets so large that they might get swaged by his 9mm FCD. That's quite an accomplishment, and a testament to his skill at casting boolits. :faint: :supergrin:


I haven't looked into the WHY? yet but I think it's because you have to seat a very long bullet very short. So you are engaging a thicker part of the case. It totally amazes me how many people on this forum seem to live by the rule of "it should be fine" rather then just pull out their dial calibers and start measuring things. Till I came around it seemed no one actually measured what a FCD did. Other forums were not like that, but around here we seem to have a hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil mentality about the FCD. Well, thats easy to do if you never bother measuring it. If you measure it and it's fine then good for you. Use it. Just like my Hornady seating die. I thought it was fine till I actually verified the results with a case gauge. Different story then. If all I owned was a FCD in 9mm then I would never have known any better (those rounds made with the Hornady seating die would have been sized away to a version of OK). To me thats crazy. I would have been sizing 20% of my rounds a significant amount for eternity. Why would you not at least want to confirm this stuff isn't happening? Lots of people posting in this thread use nothing but a FCD and never bother crimping with out the FCD. But they will sing it's praises because "it's been fine for me". WHo knows what/how many mistakes it is sizing away that could have been fixed properly. Again, like I have said in the past. If you know it's not sizing your bullets then why not use it if you want to? No big deal Even Uncle Don after measureing one of his FCD found out it was .006 smaller then the SAMMI size for that case. Why you would want that is way beyond my comprehension. No reason for it to be any smaller then about .003 smaller then SAMMI spec. But heay, I'm just a idiot who measures stuff rather then blindly believe it's "FINE".

kcbrown
04-16-2010, 12:15
I haven't looked into the WHY? yet but I think it's because you have to seat a very long bullet very short. So you are engaging a thicker part of the case.


Hmm...if that's the case then I would expect the FCD to have little to no actual effect on the resulting round since you'll still have a large section of the case at full tension against the bullet, plus the mechanics of the FCD will generally prevent it from having an effect on "backstop" created by the sizing die.

However: just how deep are you seating these bullets? Since the 9mm is a tapered case, I have to consider the possibility that you're seating them deep enough that the base of the bullet is below the possible "backstop" area generated by the sizing die. And that could indeed be a problem with respect to preventing setback (and the FCD will only make things worse in that regard). That's awfully deep, however.


As for the rest, I'm in agreement, but I can't help but think that maybe the good-natured ribbing I couldn't resist giving you went right over your head... :dunno:

dudel
04-16-2010, 12:44
But heay, I'm just a idiot who measures stuff rather then blindly believe it's "FINE".

No you're the guy who thinks that no one else has calipers or measures. :supergrin: New flash, many of us do (and we KNOW how to use them!)

You're also the guy who thinks that your measurements are the same as everyone elses, totally disregarding that others of us may have different dies, brass and projectiles. :whistling:

We do agree that those who just do it by "feels FINE" are wrong; we just disagree on how many of them there are. To imply that Uncle Don, Rusty, myself and all others who use FCCD do it because it feels "fine" is just plain wrong. I believe that Darwin sorts those out early. Since I've been at this game way longer than you, Darwin must be going after easier pickings.

You tend to come out rather strongly with opinions (and that's ok), which makes others push back (just so you realize it). Your earlier posts on those of us who used the FCCD, implied that our technique (or tools) were faulty. That's incredibly arrogant (and wrong). However, I see you've recently softened your approach to one that suggests there are two sides of the story, and that people should make up their own minds in their own situation. That's commendable.

Not that long ago, you couldn't see the reason for a single stage press. Now you have one. Somewhere you had one of those ah-ha experiences. That's a good and hopeful sign.

BTW, kc was just giving you a light ribbing. Mine's a very little, tee, tinnier bit heavier.

GioaJack
04-16-2010, 13:03
just do it by "feels FINE"



That's the criteria I've always used for deciding to get married... buying a FCD might have been considerably cheaper in the big scheme of things.

Buying the entire Lee company would have been cheaper. :crying:

Jack

Colorado4Wheel
04-16-2010, 13:29
Hmm...if that's the case then I would expect the FCD to have little to no actual effect on the resulting round since you'll still have a large section of the case at full tension against the bullet, plus the mechanics of the FCD will generally prevent it from having an effect on "backstop" created by the sizing die.

However: just how deep are you seating these bullets? Since the 9mm is a tapered case, I have to consider the possibility that you're seating them deep enough that the base of the bullet is below the possible "backstop" area generated by the sizing die. And that could indeed be a problem with respect to preventing setback (and the FCD will only make things worse in that regard). That's awfully deep, however.


As for the rest, I'm in agreement, but I can't help but think that maybe the good-natured ribbing I couldn't resist giving you went right over your head... :dunno:

If the FCD is smaller then the case @ the point that the bullet passes through then it has the "potential" to size the bullet. I have not checked all those parameters. I don't really care enough to do it. But, from just my first measurement it sure seems like there is potential. The tapered Carbide ring makes it harder to tell.

Yeah, I caught the ribbing. The bullets are @.356+ but not .357. So their not really that big. But you have to seat them @ 1.080"

Colorado4Wheel
04-16-2010, 13:36
No you're the guy who thinks that no one else has calipers or measures. :supergrin: New flash, many of us do (and we KNOW how to use them!)

Yeah, it just took days and days of arguing before Rusty (to his great credit) actually stepped up and did it. After that only Uncle Don was the one who did it.



You're also the guy who thinks that your measurements are the same as everyone elses, totally disregarding that others of us may have different dies, brass and projectiles. :whistling:



Never said that. I always said people should check it for themselves. Always said that based on my experiance/measurements far more people have the potential to be sizing bullets then are even aware of it. To this day, in this thread, I have said the same thing.

we just disagree on how many of them there are.

How can we disagree about something we have no idea the actual number on?

kcbrown
04-16-2010, 13:50
If the FCD is smaller then the case @ the point that the bullet passes through then it has the "potential" to size the bullet. I have not checked all those parameters. I don't really care enough to do it. But, from just my first measurement it sure seems like there is potential. The tapered Carbide ring makes it harder to tell.

Yeah, I caught the ribbing. The bullets are @.356+ but not .357. So their not really that big. But you have to seat them @ 1.080"

What's the length of the bullets? Also, and more importantly, what's the outside diameter of the case at the base of the bullet once the bullet's been seated?

Then, of course, compare with the inside diameter of the sizing ring at its narrowest point.

I suspect the sizing ring will still come out larger, but it may not be by much.

You almost certainly wouldn't be able to get away with using the FCD on significantly oversized bullets in a straight-walled case like .40 S&W.


Either way, I suspect that the effect the FCD would have on your 9mm rounds would be quite minimal unless the base of the bullet is very close to the point beyond which the sizing die won't give it a backstop. At that point, case tension on the bullet is the only thing preventing setback. That alone would make me somewhat reluctant to use that bullet, FCD or not. That said, the larger diameter of the bullet should allow you to put the base of the bullet deeper into the case before you run out of backstop room.


We always knew you wanted to be on the bleeding edge of 9mm cartridge development. :supergrin:

Colorado4Wheel
04-16-2010, 14:12
KC for you I will do these measurements. Let me know if this is what you wanted as this is a little confusing.

Carbide ring extends .443" from the bottom of the die.
Carbide ring @ this depth measures .378"
I am using a Lyman 147gr 9mm bullet. It's a tapered base bullet. You think that would help with this stuff. Bullet is .677" long, taper is about .0085" long. Then its on the bearing part of the bullet. Seating depth is 1.080. Its obviously bulging at the first portion of the bearing point on the bullet. Probably a good thing it's tapered already.
Fatest part of the case is .383". It's about .470" up from the bottom of the case.
So thats the numbers. The question is does that small part of the die hit that part of the bullet. If you take the crimp portion of the die out and just drop the loaded round in the FCD the case sticks out .373". It sure seems to be hanging up on that fat portion of the case. In fact just "eyeballing it" the bulge seems to be contacting the very first 1/4 of the carbide ring at this stage. At this point in the FCD the carbide ring is about .380". Again, just eyeballing it it would appear the case needs to go in the FCD about another .170" (using the normal mark from past sizings as my guide.

Colorado4Wheel
04-16-2010, 14:21
I just took a MG 124gr loaded round @ 1.130. The entire cartridge drops cleanly into my FCD leaving only .143" showing. Totally incasing that mark made by the sizing die I used as a reference above. I would bet on a press it would get forced in even more because its still not all the way in to were a shellplate would be. It obviously is not touching the bullet. Drops in clean. Thats a .230" difference. So my guess above is probably not accurate. In the press the other round would probably go in more then .170. Probably more like .240" totally more then it can cleanly drop into the die before hitting the carbide ring.

Colorado4Wheel
04-16-2010, 14:31
Pictures speak clearer then words.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r215/98sr20ve/DSC_3318.jpg
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r215/98sr20ve/DSC_3317.jpg

fredj338
04-16-2010, 15:38
If the brass manages to spring back that much after a full-length resizing operation, there's no way the FCD will be able to fix it.

Why? Because the FCD doesn't size the case down as much as the sizing die does. It assumes a certain amount of springback from the brass and sizes down just enough below SAAMI spec to account for that springback (so the resulting round will be right at SAAMI spec, or very close to it).
I was thinking mo re from seating the bullet than spring back form sizing. A pice o fbrass that has become brittle will expand a bit on seating the bullet. The brass will have less neck tension. Maybe the LCFD would restore that a bit, not sure. XD was asking about all the variables fo why one peice of brass holds a bullet fine & another fails. Age/ductility of the brass is a factor.

kcbrown
04-16-2010, 18:53
I was thinking mo re from seating the bullet than spring back form sizing. A pice o fbrass that has become brittle will expand a bit on seating the bullet. The brass will have less neck tension. Maybe the LCFD would restore that a bit, not sure. XD was asking about all the variables fo why one peice of brass holds a bullet fine & another fails. Age/ductility of the brass is a factor.

Unless the springback of the bullet is greater than the springback of the case, I don't see how running a round through the LFCD can increase the neck tension unless the standard sizing die is defective.

Of course, I'm assuming the round is an auto pistol round like 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, etc., where the primary means of preventing setback is the backstop created by the sizing die reducing the case inside diameter behind the bullet to less than the diameter of the bullet itself.

I agree, though, that the condition of the brass will have some effect on the ability of the case to hold the bullet in place, but in normal conditions it should have relatively minimal impact on the ability of the case to prevent setback, unless the brass is in really bad shape.

dudel
04-17-2010, 03:50
Pictures speak clearer then words.




Totally agree. That's why I posted targets. Results speak clear than measurements.

jwc17
04-17-2010, 08:19
delete

Colorado4Wheel
04-17-2010, 09:07
Totally agree. That's why I posted targets. Results speak clear than measurements.

Your so totally poking at me I hope. I'm sure you realize the value of actually measuring things. So go on the record. Do you believe that the FCD could resize someones bullets and cause issues for some people. I have already said many times that it doesn't destroy everyones ammo (thats kinda obvous). Whats your take? If the die's carbide ring is smaller then your bullet/case combo by .003" would you use it? What about .004". 005?. Where would you draw that line? Not just 1/100. But 20% of your stuff is that much smaller. Thats the real question. Would you still use it?

fredj338
04-17-2010, 10:57
Your so totally poking at me I hope. I'm sure you realize the value of actually measuring things. So go on the record. Do you believe that the FCD could resize someones bullets and cause issues for some people. I have already said many times that it doesn't destroy everyones ammo (thats kinda obvous). Whats your take? If the die's carbide ring is smaller then your bullet/case combo by .003" would you use it? What about .004". 005?. Where would you draw that line? Not just 1/100. But 20% of your stuff is that much smaller. Thats the real question. Would you still use it?
For me C4W, it's does it appreciabley degrade my accuracy. It seems w/ hard cast lead bullets, probably not, w/ soft plated, probably. I need to test some jacketed loads agin, but my first attempt, not good (have no idea why accuracy would be affected there). So I would pass. I may have a LFCD in 45acp for kahrma trade soon.:rofl:

dudel
04-17-2010, 14:17
Your so totally poking at me I hope. I'm sure you realize the value of actually measuring things. So go on the record. Do you believe that the FCD could resize someones bullets and cause issues for some people. I have already said many times that it doesn't destroy everyones ammo (thats kinda obvous). Whats your take? If the die's carbide ring is smaller then your bullet/case combo by .003" would you use it? What about .004". 005?. Where would you draw that line? Not just 1/100. But 20% of your stuff is that much smaller. Thats the real question. Would you still use it?

Of course I measure things. Two micrometers, no waiting. Backup mics to cross check. However, if the results are accurate; I care less about what the measurements are. Because, in the long run, I want accurate rounds, rather than ones that have a specific measurement. Given a choice, I'll take the accurate round. I'm rather pragmatic that way.

For the record: Of course an FCD could resize someones bullets and cause issues for some people.

At that point, is it the fault of the FCD or are the components out of spec (or is the FCD out of spec)? I'm sure you'll agree that generally blasting a piece of equipment because one/some might be out of spec (seems to happen more often with Lee stuff) is a bit extreme.

That's why I tell people to give it a try and see how it works for them, in their situation, with their components.

Similarly, if it doesn't work for me, I get rid of it. Witness the LCT I had and got rid of. Didn't work for me (although it works fine for others). The FCD works for me and so I keep it as part of my loading routine.

Colorado4Wheel
04-17-2010, 17:28
That's why I tell people to give it a try and see how it works for them, in their situation, with their components.

Similarly, if it doesn't work for me, I get rid of it. Witness the LCT I had and got rid of. Didn't work for me (although it works fine for others). The FCD works for me and so I keep it as part of my loading routine.

See thats the thing. It's pretty easy to know if the FCD is going to size your bullets. All you need to do is some basic measurements or even a drop test is a decent start. It is kinda interesting that for some reason I have found the times the FCD die does size things by simply looking. When you open your mind to options its amazing what you will find. I used it for years. NEVER had a issue. "Seemed fine" to me. Then I started looking and checking things and found out what it was really capable of. Even recently we all said "doesn't matter in 9mm, tapered case, etc, etc." Low and behold my new bullet/case combo it does matter. Blindly believing just doesn't work for me any longer.

fredj338
04-17-2010, 18:30
Blindly believing just doesn't work for me any longer.
Obviously you are not a liberal Democrat.:rofl: