Need help with 1st tactical shotgun [Archive] - Glock Talk

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jkalantzis
04-15-2010, 17:40
I've never owned a tactical shotgun, or any shotgun for that matter. I would like some feedback on what you guys think is the perfect 1st shotgun for someone. It will be used for home defense and if shtf. Thanks in advance gt. I see the remington 870 seems to be pretty popular, is this the one?

curriek
04-15-2010, 17:55
Remington 870, Mossberg 500/590 are the popular ones.

Joshhtn
04-15-2010, 17:59
Remington 870, Mossberg 500/590 are the popular ones.

^^^^ Good HD Shotguns!

jkalantzis
04-15-2010, 18:06
What about the mossberg 930 spx? Vs the rem 870

frankr
04-15-2010, 18:20
What about the mossberg 930 spx? Vs the rem 870

I’ve got both the 930 SPX and the Remington 870 (25077) . I love my 930 SPX with over 600 shells fired mostly low brass target loads with no malefactions. But there is something about a pump. I have five 00 buck in my extended magazine tube.

deputy tom
04-15-2010, 18:39
All good suggestions so far.If you are on a tight budget get a Maverick.tom.:cool:

TECH51
04-15-2010, 19:10
All good suggestions so far.If you are on a tight budget get a Maverick.tom.:cool:

That is a good answer. That way if you don't like the .73 rifle your not out a lot of $$

Murgatroy
04-15-2010, 19:19
The 870 seems to be the most popular, with the Mossberg coming in second. The Maverick is invariably mentioned as a cheaper alternative. However the NEF Pardner is another option . Those that don't own one will bash it, but those that do own one are fond of them.

I like mine.

I am 200+ shells into it and I have yet to have a malfunction of any kind.

dc2integra
04-15-2010, 19:51
mossberg 500 if u got the extra cash get the 870 its a solid gun

David Armstrong
04-16-2010, 12:23
I have got to ask. If you have never owned a shotgun, why are you selecting that weapon for HD? If it is to fill out a battery I understand, but if this is your HD starting point I'd sure look at things. The shotgun is the toughest platform to learn to use well.

kabob983
04-16-2010, 12:54
The shotgun is the toughest platform to learn to use well.

I dunno about the toughest to use well but it's the easiest to use period. Pump, click, pump, click while aiming in the general proximity beats anything else.

David Armstrong
04-16-2010, 16:19
I dunno about the toughest to use well but it's the easiest to use period.
Having trained a lot of folks on a lot of different platforms I'd have to disagree with that.
Pump, click, pump, click while aiming in the general proximity beats anything else.
That statement is an excellent example of why people need to get some training in shotguns. Almost anything beats "pump, click while aiming in the general proximity."

GAFinch
04-16-2010, 16:23
I dunno about the toughest to use well but it's the easiest to use period. Pump, click, pump, click while aiming in the general proximity beats anything else.

Everyone hears that, then can't understand why their shoulder gets bruised up so bad: bad posture and not keeping the gun pressed firmly into their shoulder while shooting.

dc2integra
04-16-2010, 17:46
the hardest plaform to learn to shoot well is a handgun hands down.a shotgun is fairly easy operate

jkalantzis
04-16-2010, 19:40
I have got to ask. If you have never owned a shotgun, why are you selecting that weapon for HD? If it is to fill out a battery I understand, but if this is your HD starting point I'd sure look at things. The shotgun is the toughest platform to learn to use well.

It would not be my only HD gun, I have several others. It is just what I can imagine using it for. Thanks for all the suggestions.

N/Apower
04-17-2010, 01:01
My first tactical shotgun was an M4. I skipped all the intermediate steps working up to it. However, I think perhapse I will add an 870 at some point.

mitchshrader
04-17-2010, 01:27
the easiest gun to shoot for a novice is a double action revolver.

the pump shotgun doesn't matter, but it's good to have choke tubes, or a second barrel, for hunting purposes. Literally doesn't matter, be it Winchester, Ithaca 37, recyled riot gun, or two credit cards worth of the latest and greatest.

Shotguns are deadly AT CLOSE RANGE WITH HEAVY LOADS.. Don't hunt folks with birdshot, stay under 40 yards with buck and 75 with slugs until you're darn well sure your skill matches or exceeds your expectations. The gun is cheap, the training & necessary ammo isn't.

Nutt51
04-17-2010, 09:21
I've always been an 870 man. I have a Mossberg, but I like 870's.
870's are solid, reliable, and there seems to be more parts out
there to customize with.
Go to JD's site, www.aiptactical.com (http://www.aiptactical.com) and read some of the information
he as there about 870's and defensive shotguns in general.
It may give you some more insight and help you make up your mind.
Good luck on your choice.

mixflip
04-17-2010, 12:32
Everybody knows you have a higher hit probability with one trigger pull of a shoulder fired shotgun vs one trigger pull of a handgun (1 bullet vs 9 shots of 00-buck)

It doesnt take rocket science and ninja tactical shotgun combat skills to learn to use a pump shotgun for home defense "effectively". Key word is effectively not LEO or soldier combat proficiently just simple home defense effective.

It takes training but basically its simple, my wife locks the bedroom door, grabs the 12 gauge, calls 911, takes cover behind the bed to make herself a small target and uses the bed as a bench to aim the shotgun at the fatal funnel (the door way) and yells out I have a gun, go away I called 911.

If he still breaks in, BANG! 9 shots of 00-buck all at once...vs 1 shot of 40 cal which could be harder for my wife to hit COM while scared, pumped up full of adrenaline and stressed.

She aint gonna be doing a building search, or pieing corners or breaching doors ect ect...

This is not everyones mindset and I dont loose sleep worrying about it because my wife is handy with her G19 also.

David Armstrong
04-17-2010, 14:30
a shotgun is fairly easy operate
Yes, as is a handgun. Both are hard to learn to operate well.

Key work is effectively not LEO or soldier combat proficiently just simple home defense effective.
I think one can make a pretty good case that LEO effectiveness level is the MINIMUM needed for "home defense effective".

It would not be my only HD gun, I have several others. It is just what I can imagine using it for.
Great. As part of a battery it makes good sense, as the start of the battery maybe not so much.

kabob983
04-17-2010, 20:50
That statement is an excellent example of why people need to get some training in shotguns. Almost anything beats "pump, click while aiming in the general proximity."

My post was talking about the 90%+ of people who have a gun for "home defense" that go to the range less than twice a year. For those people they don't know/care how to use a shotgun "well," they know basic operation. For those people it's the most logical solution.

Everyone hears that, then can't understand why their shoulder gets bruised up so bad: bad posture and not keeping the gun pressed firmly into their shoulder while shooting.

My satement is talking about people who rarely go to the range. They buy a shotgun and keep it for "home defense." They're not going to care if their shoulder hurts, they'll care if they live or not.

I'll agree, it's a very difficult platform to learn to use well but for someone with no proficiency with a pistol, carbine, or shotgun I'd suggest the shotgun...call me crazy.

Aceman
04-18-2010, 13:26
Back on point:

Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 - Midline.

Mossberg Maverick 88, Remington 870 Express - budget.

Mossberg 590, Remington 870 Police - high end.

They will all work just perfectly and have done so for years.

JFrame
04-18-2010, 13:29
Back on point:

Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 - Midline.

Mossberg Maverick 88, Remington 870 Express - budget.

Mossberg 590, Remington 870 Police - high end.

They will all work just perfectly and have done so for years.


As with Murgatroy above, to that budget list, I would also add the NEF Pardner for consideration.

.

David Armstrong
04-18-2010, 14:04
My post was talking about the 90%+ of people who have a gun for "home defense" that go to the range less than twice a year. For those people they don't know/care how to use a shotgun "well," they know basic operation. For those people it's the most logical solution.
We disagree. I've been in the firearms teaching business for over 30 years now, and I find the shotgun to be the most difficult to use effectively in the home defense mode. It works well if one shot solves your problem, but after that it falls by the wayside quickly. It is only a logical solution if one choosews to ignore logic and/or believes a lot of the mythology about the shotgun, like the afore-mentioned "Pump, click, pump, click while aiming in the general proximity beats anything else."
They're not going to care if their shoulder hurts, they'll care if they live or not.

They do care if their shoulder hurts, and those that meet your "rarely go to the range" standard are often the worse, as they never learn how to use it right and thus do not shoot it well because they are afraid of the hurt, thus being even more likely to miss with the one good shot they would have.
but for someone with no proficiency with a pistol, carbine, or shotgun I'd suggest the shotgun...call me crazy.
It's not crazy, it is a very common misconception fueled by the poor portrayal of the shotguns abilities on TV and in movies.

captcurly
04-18-2010, 14:56
I have both a Mossy 930 SPX and a Mossy 590 M&P. The 590 has a Knoxx Compstock (recoil reducing stock) and it is a great accessory. Both are fine weapons but I favor the SPX. Good luck with any decision you make. On second thought if this will be your first shotgun really check out the 590.

Aceman
04-18-2010, 18:12
Now - back to the side thread.

I have to say I am in the camp with mixflip.

#1 ANY long gun is going to generate more accuracy than a pistol
#2 ANY shotgun round has a much higher margin for error (COM/Critical-Stopping HIT) than any pistol round
#3 ANY shotgun hit has a much higher stopping potential period based on the pure number of rounds hitting (nearly) simultaneously

A shotgun is the number one man-stopper period. I can teach someone to hit more often, more effective, and shoot faster (while effectively hitting) with a shotgun than a pistol. Let me say that another way; It takes far more practice with a pistol to achieve the same level of effectiveness.

That said - yes; One has to practice A LOT with either. As for the shoulder pain, that's a weak argument. No reason to use anything other than low recoil indoors. There are any number of ways to mod the stock from knoxx to a pad to reduce recoil. And then proper instruction is key.

If your 30 years of instruction have shown that someone gets to be more proficient with a handgun than a shotgun faster - great. But I don't believe it. within a very short time I'm going to have someone very consistently and very quickly putting way more shot on target (and at least one critical target) than anyone with a pistol will be able to. Am I an instructor? No. But I am a scientist and a long time shooter.

As for going tactical and "clearing" the house and hunting down BG's - I say that's a bad idea period. Again, mixflip has EXACTLY the right idea IMO. And the myths about being able to disarm someone with a long gun vs a pistol are pure horse pucky too. As with all weapons - you need to learn a little hand to hand for just such occasions. I maintain if someone grabs my barrel, 9 out of ten times simply pulling the trigger will take care of the situation. The 10th time, just let go and beat the bejeebers out of them while they are working on figuring which end of the gun is up.

As for clearing a house with an SG - this is a whole other beast I don't want to get into. But lot's of people do this and do it very effectively.

mixflip
04-18-2010, 22:49
Well said Ace.








(your check is in the mail...lol)

Another note too. Dave does have a good point about shotguns. They can be awkward on reloads under stress and awkward around stairs and hallways and demand 2 hands for multiple shots.

In this case a hand gun may actually be a good choice for certain folks. My wife can wield a G19 and shoot it fairly well. She can hit a man sized target (multiple times), strong hand unsupported at hallway distances....all while guiding or pulling our little 3 year old boy to safety or cover with her support hand.

This same act becomes alot harder to do with her, our baby boy and a shotgun.

David Armstrong
04-19-2010, 11:02
A shotgun is the number one man-stopper period.
Yes, but one must hit the target with the round in order for it to work.
I can teach someone to hit more often, more effective, and shoot faster (while effectively hitting) with a shotgun than a pistol.
So can I. What can be done in a comparable time frame is a different thing, however. I find given typical HD distances, students get better hits, but are much slower, with a shotgun until well into the program, particularly follow-up shots and hits.
As for the shoulder pain, that's a weak argument. No reason to use anything other than low recoil indoors.
You may think it a weak argument, but it is the number one complaint and problem that I and most other shotgun trainers I've met encounter from students. Sure, there are ways around it, but for most non-dedicated folks those ways don't come into play that much.
If your 30 years of instruction have shown that someone gets to be more proficient with a handgun than a shotgun faster - great. But I don't believe it.
That's fine, don't believe me. Perhaps you would believe instructors from Gunsite, or other major places, or most LE trainers, as I've heard the same from them.
Am I an instructor? No. But I am a scientist and a long time shooter.
Whereas I am an instructor, and a scientist, and a long time shooter, so maybe I'm coming at it from a different perspective.

Look, I like the shotgun. When my shoulder was intact I would have chosen it over anything else for most situations. But history is a hard thing to argue with, and history has shown that learning to use the shotgun well for HD is harder than learning the rifle, the carbine, or the handgun.

vafish
04-19-2010, 11:29
I'm an instructor too and I find it easier to get a novice to hit moving clay targets with a shotgun then it is to get them to shoot a handgun well. Novices are just as afraid of handgun recoil as they are of shotgun recoil. Rifles or carbines are the easiest to get people shooting well fast.

As for the operation of a pump shotgun vs a double action revolver in a home defense situation. I got to say the double action revolver is much easier. Just aim and pull the trigger. Nothing else to even think about doing. Pump action shotgun has the safety, slide release, and slide to mess them up. Short stroke a pump action shotgun and you are left with a half way decent club in your hands.

Anyhow for a first shotgun?

I like pump guns, I've been shooting them for almost 38 years at clay targets and hunting. Other than a couple of old bolt action shotguns that were given to me I don't own anything but a pump gun. The use of a pump gun is just part of my nature now. But pump guns take a while to master. They beat you up pretty good with heavy defensive loads.

I'd suggest a semi auto 12 ga like the 930 SPX or 1100 Tactical.

If you do want a pump gun the Mossberg 500 or 590, Remington 870, Winchester 1200 or 1300, and Benelli Nova are all great guns that will serve you well.

kabob983
04-19-2010, 11:35
We disagree. I've been in the firearms teaching business for over 30 years now, and I find the shotgun to be the most difficult to use effectively in the home defense mode. It works well if one shot solves your problem, but after that it falls by the wayside quickly. It is only a logical solution if one choosews to ignore logic and/or believes a lot of the mythology about the shotgun, like the afore-mentioned "Pump, click, pump, click while aiming in the general proximity beats anything else."

They do care if their shoulder hurts, and those that meet your "rarely go to the range" standard are often the worse, as they never learn how to use it right and thus do not shoot it well because they are afraid of the hurt, thus being even more likely to miss with the one good shot they would have.

It's not crazy, it is a very common misconception fueled by the poor portrayal of the shotguns abilities on TV and in movies.

Hrm, guess I have alot to learn about shotguns. I'm not terribly familiar with the system, I've always been a pistol/rifle guy.

David Armstrong
04-19-2010, 11:49
Rifles or carbines are the easiest to get people shooting well fast.
That is my experience also. IMO some of the pistol caliber carbines are the best option for those who don't want to devote much time to the subject.
As for the operation of a pump shotgun vs a double action revolver in a home defense situation. I got to say the double action revolver is much easier. Just aim and pull the trigger. Nothing else to even think about doing. Pump action shotgun has the safety, slide release, and slide to mess them up. Short stroke a pump action shotgun and you are left with a half way decent club in your hands.
Exactly. Toss in a few recoil issues and problems with gunhandling and the shotgun becomes far more problematic than most foks realize.

mixflip
04-19-2010, 13:40
I think the point is you need to learn to be good with what ever you have. "run what ya brung" as they say.

I think I remember Clint Smith even saying a double barreled side by side is a good home defense weapon. Simple, light, short, and devastating. Oh and probably easier to reload than a revolver?

gunreviewonmyspace
04-19-2010, 13:49
The Reminton 870 is a really solid gun, but it is heavier, and the safety is more prone to failur than my favorite the Mossberg 500. Don't cheap out unless it is gonna lay under your truck seat or in the garage somewhere. Get the full price model whichever you choose. Both Remington, and Mossberg have cheapened versions of their defensive scatterguns. Both have plastic parts prone to breaking. I like the bare bones Mossberg 500 with a flashlight attached, and a side folding stock. Cheaper, lighter, and simpler. Solid as a rock and reliable as sin.

vafish
04-19-2010, 14:13
That is my experience also. IMO some of the pistol caliber carbines are the best option for those who don't want to devote much time to the subject.

Exactly. Toss in a few recoil issues and problems with gunhandling and the shotgun becomes far more problematic than most foks realize.

David,

We agree more then we disagree.

I think it's easier to get people making first hits with a shotgun then it is with a handgun. I also think that even though follow up hits with the shotgun are slower that it's not much of an issue. If they are getting first round solid hits with a shotgun they don't need the speed of a 9MM double tap to get results.

The other thing is I think a shotgun should be employed in a static defense in the home. I don't advocate trying to search or clear you home of intruders with a shotgun. The proper use of a shotgun in home defense is to get to your safe place where the shotgun is stored, call 911 on a cell phone and wait for the cavalry to arrive with the shotgun pointed at the avenue of approach. If the home intruder decides to come into your safe place then the shotgun is used. This reduces a lot of the handling problems you mention.

And mixflip is right, whatever you choose to defend your home with you need to invest the time and money to learn to use it properly.

David Armstrong
04-20-2010, 09:42
I think th epoint is you need to learn to be good with what ever you have. "run what ya brung" as they say.

I think I remember Clint Smith even saying a double barreled side by side is a good home defense weapon. Simple, light, short, and devastating. Oh and probably easier to reload than a revolver?


Sure. If one is not willing to take the time to learn how to use a pump gun, a good double might make more sense, as one doesn't have some of the manual of arms issues.

David Armstrong
04-20-2010, 10:08
I think it's easier to get people making first hits with a shotgun then it is with a handgun.
I think we could debate the point based on different types of handguns and shotguns, but even granting the point I disagree that follow-up shots are not much of a factor. Given low-trained non-dedicated personnel the likelihood of a miss with the first shot is pretty high, and given the typical HD distances that makes the follow-up shots particularly important. That is why I like the rifle/carbine for those folks. They get the advantages of a long-gun for control purposes without any of the recoil issues, assuming good selection of firearm.
If the home intruder decides to come into your safe place then the shotgun is used. This reduces a lot of the handling problems you mention.
I don't know. You still have to rack the slide, mount the shotgun, get a decent sight picture, and if you shoot you need to recover from the recoil, rack the slide, get a decent postion again, and so on. I've just seen too many well-trained folks mess that up to think that it will be easy for minimally trained shooters under high stress.
And mixflip is right, whatever you choose to defend your home with you need to invest the time and money to learn to use it properly.
Agreed, and that reduces many of the issues we talk about. But I was under the impression we were discussing this from my statement that the shotgun was not a good way to begin the HD process because it was the toughest platform to learn to use well.
If one does learn to use it well I think it is the best tool for HD, but that is quite different from the typical owner who buys a shotgun and had less than 1 day on its use.