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Jason12345
04-16-2010, 21:25
I have started having a problem with reloading 9mm where the bullet is not tight enough in the case after being seated. If I run 10 rounds out of the press I can probably push 1 or 2 bullets down into the case with my thumb. I do not reload a lot of 9mm but this has not been a problem in the past.

I searched and most similar posts seem to recommend more crimp. I have increased crimp tonight and still no better (even crimped until i have made a dent in the bullet but they are still not tight).

It seems to me it is either a tired batch of brass (I dont always keep track of the number of reloads) or the sizing die is not doing its job correctly. The dies are Hornady carbide and the bullets are precision delta.

I gave up for the night and will try again tomorrow but does anyone have suggestions of what to check?

Thanks!

Patrick Graham
04-16-2010, 21:29
This wouldn't be nickel plated Remington or AMERC brass would it?

Lately I've seen a lot of very thin nickel plated Remington brass.

AMERC has a reputation for junk brass.

4Baldy
04-16-2010, 21:42
You are not using enough bell in the case and way to much crimp. The case should be belled just enough to let the bullet start straight. Your crimp should take the bell back out and no more. Over crimping just loosens the bullet up more. Buy a gauge for about $12.00 or use the barrel of your pistol to check your loads. Good luck.

hill billy
04-16-2010, 21:53
You are not using enough bell in the case and way to much crimp. The case should be belled just enough to let the bullet start straight. Your crimp should take the bell back out and no more. Over crimping just loosens the bullet up more. Buy a gauge for about $12.00 or use the barrel of your pistol to check your loads. Good luck.

I'd be inclined to disagree with this statement. This works well for rifle rounds. Pistol rounds, especially when run in semi auto's, need a good crimp. Some rounds, 10mm for example, like a nice heavy crimp.

fredj338
04-16-2010, 22:41
I'd be inclined to disagree with this statement. This works well for rifle rounds. Pistol rounds, especially when run in semi auto's, need a good crimp. Some rounds, 10mm for example, like a nice heavy crimp.

You can NOT crimp enough to hold an undersized bullet into an old, worn out piece of brass. Measure the bullet dia. PD has been known to release some under sized bullet. It doens't take much. Check the expander button on your die, it should measure no more than 0.352" for best fit.

hill billy
04-16-2010, 22:59
You can NOT crimp enough to hold an undersized bullet into an old, worn out piece of brass. Measure the bullet dia. PD has been known to release some under sized bullet. It doens't take much. Check the expander button on your die, it should measure no more than 0.352" for best fit.

True. However, to say that handguns rounds need no crimp past closing the bell is incorrect and poor practice and can lead to problems.

dudel
04-17-2010, 04:31
True. However, to say that handguns rounds need no crimp past closing the bell is incorrect and poor practice and can lead to problems.

+1 It would be lunacy NOT to crimp revolver rounds. Plus, if you take a look at the Lyman and Dillon diagrams, they show the taper crimp closing much more than just "removing the flare". Note that Lyman and Dillon, don't show the crimp going into the projectile; just closing over the projectile.

dudel
04-17-2010, 04:37
It seems to me it is either a tired batch of brass (I dont always keep track of the number of reloads) or the sizing die is not doing its job correctly. The dies are Hornady carbide and the bullets are precision delta.

I gave up for the night and will try again tomorrow but does anyone have suggestions of what to check?


Do you load hot or mild loads? Mild loads will make the brass last much, much longer than hot loads. For mild loads, I pretty much stopped counting the number of times it was reloaded. They just last. On hot rounds, much less.

I use the Hornady dies myself, and have had no problems with them. Since it's not a problem on all rounds, I'd rule out the dies.

Unfortunately this points to the components. IIRC, PD has had a problem in the past with QC. How about pulling the projectile from a loose round and one from a tight round and mic them. I suspect the loose one is smaller. No amount of taper crimp is going to tighten that up. Heck, not even the Lee FCCD would solve that problem. :supergrin: (sorry, couldn't resist)

KB2MBC
04-17-2010, 05:12
You should have dial calipers on your bench.
Start measuring everything, case length, wall thickness at the mouth (compare to a new case since my Hornady manual does not have that dimension) and bullet diameter.
You only need to flair the case mouth slightly, you may have too much.
Check your crimp, you should be using a taper, not a roll crimp.
I have a single stage press and I use seperate taper & roll crimp dies so I am able to see exactly how much of a crimp I'm achieving. You could check your crimp against a factory round to see how the overall diameter at the mouth compare or look up on the Internet to see how others compare.

DWARREN123
04-17-2010, 05:44
I have found that if I crimp enough to fit the round in the chamber it will not allow me to push the bullet into the case.
Bell the case just enough to allow straight seating of the bullet. Use the chamber (barrel removed from gun) as a gauge and make sure the rounds fit the mag.

ScEd
04-17-2010, 06:35
The OP may be fighting a loosing battle if he has one of the batches of Remington cases with tin in the cases instead of good old fashioned brass.

CTSixshot
04-17-2010, 07:13
The OP may be fighting a loosing battle if he has one of the batches of Remington cases with tin in the cases instead of good old fashioned brass.

I can't address 9x19 specifically, but I've had many a Remington ni-plated .45 ACPs that simply do not size and the bullets drop right in. They just get culled and removed from the process.

GlockMonk
04-17-2010, 07:22
You need to tell us which brass you're using. Some of the newer brass are junk. Crimping tighter would only worsen the situation.

GlockMonk

Don At PC
04-17-2010, 07:29
My 9mm loads get crimped with a LFC die to 0.376. Loaded on a Dillon 550B, has produced great results for years. Currently reloading 135gr Xtreme Plated bullets.

Don

Colorado4Wheel
04-17-2010, 07:43
In 9mm the sizing creates the bullet tension. Repeat that 10 times before moving to the next step. In 9mm the crimp die removes the flare. It does not hold the bullet. Repeat that 10 times before moving on. So if that true you need to check your sizing die as step #1 in your trouble shooting process. Seat a bullet, do not crimp. Try to push it in further. Let us know how that goes before moving on.

chris in va
04-17-2010, 09:08
That's what I think too. Somehow the sizing operation isn't getting done.

Colorado4Wheel
04-17-2010, 09:11
Yep, or he is ruining the sizing opperation in the crimping.

HAMMERHEAD
04-17-2010, 09:38
You are not using enough bell in the case
I have to disagree.
The less flair/expansion the better. I discovered by accident that not flaring at all gives the best bullet tension.
In my jacketed 9mm and .38 Super loads I skip the expander die altogether and simply resize/reprime, charge and seat. No crimp. I can cycle my dummy rounds over and over with no bullet setback. I use straight line competition seater dies (Redding) which helps.
It's the bullet tension in the case that does most of the gripping, not the crimp.

Colorado4Wheel
04-17-2010, 10:09
I have to disagree.
The less flair/expansion the better. I discovered by accident that not flaring at all gives the best bullet tension.
In my jacketed 9mm and .38 Super loads I skip the expander die altogether and simply resize/reprime, charge and seat. No crimp. I can cycle my dummy rounds over and over with no bullet setback. I use straight line competition seater dies (Redding) which helps.
It's the bullet tension in the case that does most of the gripping, not the crimp.

With rare exceptions for Lead Bullets perhaps. Lead bullets can get sized down by a case. With a Dillon Powder funnel that expands the inside of the case neck out the funnel going deeper can help prevent some leading. Lead is a different story then jacketed. My lead bullets are so hard to get out with a bullet puller that I just don't even bother pulling bad rounds.

fredj338
04-17-2010, 10:41
The OP may be fighting a loosing battle if he has one of the batches of Remington cases with tin in the cases instead of good old fashioned brass.

True. I can't get RP brass to work w/ most jacketed 0.451" bullets, so reserve that for lead bullets 0.452" (yes, 0.001" matters).
The less flair/expansion the better. I discovered by accident that not flaring at all gives the best bullet tension.
That may work w/ jacketed bullets, much like rifle rounds, but a disaster w/ lead bullets & even plated. Nothing screws your accuray faster than damaging the base of the bullet. Mic the expander, Mic the bullets.

Colorado4Wheel
04-17-2010, 11:13
That may work w/ jacketed bullets, much like rifle rounds, but a disaster w/ lead bullets & even plated. Nothing screws your accuray faster than damaging the base of the bullet. Mic the expander, Mic the bullets.

Measureing with dial calipers is bad. Using a Mic might send you to the land where you can only buy factory ammo for 10X the cost of reloads. ;)

Jason12345
04-17-2010, 11:53
Unfortunatly I am not going to have a chance to investigate further until this evening (and I will report back) but here are a few comments on the ideas / comments so far:

- minor load, not a hot load.
- I realize crimping is not to hold in a bullet - I only mentioned that / tried that as it was suggested in other posts and I did it as an experiment to see if it impacted anything
- Mixed brass - A quick glance last night found several different headstamps with the problem, not a single make. Also, all true brass - no steel, aluminum, etc.
- I will pull and measure the problem bullets tonight and see if they are out of spec.

I still suspect either I just had a bad run of some worn out brass or something is wring with my sizing die. Tonight I will try to find the biggest / bulgy piece of brass I have and run it throught the sizing die and measure what it puts it down to and report back.

Stay tuned - and thanks for all the great tips!

kcbrown
04-17-2010, 12:59
Unfortunatly I am not going to have a chance to investigate further until this evening (and I will report back) but here are a few comments on the ideas / comments so far:

- minor load, not a hot load.
- I realize crimping is not to hold in a bullet - I only mentioned that / tried that as it was suggested in other posts and I did it as an experiment to see if it impacted anything
- Mixed brass - A quick glance last night found several different headstamps with the problem, not a single make. Also, all true brass - no steel, aluminum, etc.
- I will pull and measure the problem bullets tonight and see if they are out of spec.

I still suspect either I just had a bad run of some worn out brass or something is wring with my sizing die. Tonight I will try to find the biggest / bulgy piece of brass I have and run it throught the sizing die and measure what it puts it down to and report back.

Stay tuned - and thanks for all the great tips!

It is almost certainly either a problem with your sizing die or a problem with your bullets.

The sizing die reduces the inside diameter of the case so that it is smaller than the diameter of the bullet. When you seat the bullet, it expands the case around the bullet but not below the bullet. The end result is that there is a "backstop" behind the bullet where the inside diameter of the case remains smaller than the diameter of the bullet. That is what prevents setback.

The fact that you can push the bullet into the case by hand means that either your bullets are undersized or that the sizing die is no longer reducing the diameter of the case enough to create the aforementioned backstop.

HAMMERHEAD
04-17-2010, 13:19
The end result is that there is a "backstop" behind the bullet where the inside diameter of the case remains smaller than the diameter of the bullet. That is what prevents setback.
That sounds good. I think the brass does grip the side of the bullet as well, but you're right, that slight 'bottleneck' that is created behind the bullet is probably a big factor now that you mention it.

To the OP, I recommend making dummy rounds (no primer, no powder) and measure them before and after cycling them through a magazine into your pistol several times.
If they set back .001" to .005" after say, five cycles, that's OK. Just as long as they aren't setting back .010" to .050" or more. I think it's a better standard than just pushing with your thumb.

n2extrm
04-17-2010, 19:05
In 9mm the sizing creates the bullet tension. Repeat that 10 times before moving to the next step. In 9mm the crimp die removes the flare. It does not hold the bullet. Repeat that 10 times before moving on. So if that true you need to check your sizing die as step #1 in your trouble shooting process. Seat a bullet, do not crimp. Try to push it in further. Let us know how that goes before moving on.


I have to agree here. I think the only other real possibility is as Fred said the bullets are undersized. Some quick measurements will tell the truth.

Jason12345
04-18-2010, 15:42
I pulled 4 of the bullets that were not holding the bullet in place and made several measurements. Had to use dial calipers as I have no mic (yet).

1) Blazer Brass
Bullet OD - 0.355"
Case Mouth OD - 0.375"
Case Mouth ID - 0.353"
Case Wall Thickness at Mouth - 0.011"
Case Length - 0.745"

2) FC Brass
Bullet OD - 0.355"
Case Mouth OD - 0.375"
Case Mouth ID - 0.352 - 0.353"
Case Wall Thickness at Mouth - 0.011"
Case Length - 0.744"

3) Blazer Brass
Bullet OD - 0.354"
Case Mouth OD - 0.374"
Case Mouth ID - 0.354"
Case Wall Thickness at Mouth - 0.010"
Case Length - 0.748"

4) Blazer Brass
Bullet OD - 0.353 - 0.354" (out of round)
Case Mouth OD - 0.375"
Case Mouth ID - 0.354"
Case Wall Thickness at Mouth - 0.009"
Case Length - 0.748"

Then I found a few larger pieces of brass where a bullet could be dropped in before sizing:

1) Speer Brass
Case OD at Mouth - 0.378 - 0.380" AFTER SIZING ONLY = 0.371"
Case OD at mid point - 0.383 - 0.384" AFTER SIZING ONLY = 0.378"
Case OD near Bottom - 0.386" AFTER SIZING ONLY = 0.385"

2) Win Brass
measurements just about exactly as Speer above. On this one I measured inside diameter before and after as well. ID before = 0.358", After Sizing = 0.352".

Colorado4Wheel
04-18-2010, 16:09
You can always drop a bullet in a unsized case. Thats normal. Size all the above case and remeasure the I.D.. Then seat the bullet after flaring. DO NOT CRIMP. Then try the push test.

Jason12345
04-18-2010, 18:05
Is there a standard diameter or specification a sizing die SHOULD push a 9mm piece of brass down to?

Colorado4Wheel
04-22-2010, 11:47
So what was it? Did you measure the results of the die on the case?

Gunnut 45/454
04-23-2010, 17:06
Jason12345
Check to make sure your sizing die is set up properly! Die should come down and have just a few thousand of a gap between shell holder and die base! This will give you full sizing of the case! If your seat JHP/FMJ bullets you need very little belling of the case! This will give you max case grab on the bullet-DO NOT GET ANY LUBE ON BULLET OR CASE MOUTH! Crimp should be a slight taper crimp! If after doing this and your bullet still can be pushed into the case - get rid of those cases or you could try and annealing them again kind of dumb just 9mm case though! If you need brass I got a bunch of once fired I could sell you since I don't shoot 9mm ! Mostly Winchester!

ralphie98
04-25-2010, 16:52
Jason - do you know anybody else who has 9mm dies that you could borrow the resizing die from? I am very interested in the outcome of this because I'm going through the same thing myself with 9mm. I have pretty much come to the conclusion that my resizing die isn't doing the job. I have tried everything that has been suggested here and more. The only difference is that I'm using Lee dies.

keep us up to date on what you find out

D. Manley
04-25-2010, 17:50
Jason - do you know anybody else who has 9mm dies that you could borrow the resizing die from? I am very interested in the outcome of this because I'm going through the same thing myself with 9mm. I have pretty much come to the conclusion that my resizing die isn't doing the job. I have tried everything that has been suggested here and more. The only difference is that I'm using Lee dies.

keep us up to date on what you find out

Problem Solver (http://egw-guns.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=40&zenid=e824749214844166afc1ca7e9956c973).