Top of the line range pistol comparison - LONG READ [Archive] - Glock Talk

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bac1023
04-17-2010, 22:59
While a thread like this takes a great deal of time and energy, I thought I'd share my opinions on some higher end range/target pistols, in case somebody is in the market for one. The PMs I gotten over time suggest that there are quite a few people here who appreciate guns like the models in this thread.

Some of these are strictly target/competition pistols, but some others are/were not actually intended for that purpose. However, I feel their overall quality and capabilities make them superb range guns.

While most of these are no longer produced, most are also readily available on the used market. A few of these are still built today, in an age where heavy metal, high quality pistols are fewer and farther between.

I'll also state the obvious and say the following is merely one man's opinion, not fact. I'm going to state some useful facts, such as composition, weight, and action type, but this body of work is based solely on my experience and preferences. Its also limited to my collection, so if your favorite pistol isn't listed, I either don't own it or don't feel it performs in the same class as the others in my hands. Fair enough?

The last thing to mention before starting, is that there are absolutely no 1911s in this test. Many of you know I'm an avid 1911 collector and I've said many times that its my favorite pistol. However, I post plenty about them already. For the sake of this work, they are watching from the sidelines.

The players here are as follows, and I'm going to group them a couple different ways:

First by caliber.


9mm:

Sig X-Five L1
Sig P210-6
Pardini GT-9
S&W PC952
Sphinx Competitor
HK P7M8
Benelli B76
MAB PA-15
Walther P88
Browning HP Competition


40S&W:

HK P7M10
CZ 75 Champion
Beretta 96 Steel I


45ACP:

HK Mark 23
S&W PC945


38 Special:

S&W 52


38 Super:

Tanfoglio Limited



Now by intended purpose.


Race/Competition/Target:

Sig Sauer X-Five L1
Pardini GT-9
Sphinx Competitor
Browning HP Competition
Tanfoglio Limited
S&W 52
CZ 75 Champion


Military/Service:

HK P7M8
Benelli B76
MAB PA-15
Walther P88
HK P7M10
HK Mark 23


Somewhere between:

Sig P210-6
S&W PC952
Beretta 96 Steel I
S&W PC945


Since I'm rating these as range guns, obviously some have a distinct advantage, but I'll get started. All ratings use a 1 to 10 scale, with 10 being the best.

I'll start with 9mms, which is my favorite range caliber.

bac1023
04-17-2010, 22:59
Sig X-Five L1

Frame: Stainless steel
Slide: Stainless steel
Unloaded weight: 46.2oz
Price: $2000-$2500
Action: SAO

Accuracy: 10
Trigger: 10
Ergonomics: 9
Grips: 10
Sights: 9
Controls: 8
Finish: 10
Build quality: 10

Overall rating: 9.5

What's not to like? Hand built in Germany, the X-Five Level 1 is a supremely capable pistol. The trigger is incredible and also fully adjustable, the Nill grips are second to none, and the gun can group at 100 yards. On top of all that, its fit and finish are truly a sight to behold. It may be the best pure shooter Sig ever built.

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/cutillo_2009/000_1968.jpg

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/cutillo_2009/000_1969.jpg







Sig P210-6

Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded weight: 34.6oz
Price: $2500-$4000
Action: SAO

Accuracy: 9
Trigger: 8
Ergonomics: 8
Grips: 9
Sights: 5
Controls: 4
Finish: 7
Build quality: 10

Overall rating: 7.5

While its a legendary pistol, the P210 is showing its 60+ year age here. Regardless of the rating, it one of my favorite pistols. However, there are reasons it only rates a 7.5 on my scale. In all fairness, the P210 started life as a military gun, not a target pistol, so its ergonomics aren't as nice as some modern models. What really hurts the score is the rather thin bluing on the frame and terrible frame mounted safety. Its one of the most awkward in all of handgunning. Still, the P210 is a Swiss legend that will keep rising in value. I'm looking to add a heavy frame model one day.

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/cutillo_2009/000_2241-1.jpg

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/cutillo_2009/000_1865.jpg

bac1023
04-17-2010, 23:00
Pardini GT-9

Frame: Aluminum
Slide: Steel
Unloaded weight: 38.0oz
Price: $2000
Action: SAO

Accuracy: 9
Trigger: 10
Ergonomics: 7
Grips: 8
Sights: 8
Controls: 9
Finish: 8
Build quality: 9

Overall rating: 8.5

Here we have a very specialized target pistol in the Italian Pardini GT-9. It rates a solid 8.5 on my scale and one of my favorites at the range. The trigger is its strongest point, as is the overall smoothness of the gun. Its just a very slick pistol. The aluminum frame keeps this large pistol under 40oz, but its still very solid all around. I believe they're imported only through Larry's Guns these days.

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/cutillo_2009/000_1766.jpg

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/cutillo_2009/000_1767.jpg






Smith & Wesson PC952

Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded weight: 40.4oz
Price: $1500-$2000
Action: SAO

Accuracy: 10
Trigger: 9
Ergonomics: 8
Grips: 8
Sights: 10
Controls: 6
Finish: 10
Build quality: 10

Overall rating: 8.9

Only a very poor safety kept this stellar pistol from a rating over 9. Since the safety doesn't come into play at the range, its probably my favorite non-1911 target pistol. Build quality, finish, and attention to detail are impeccable. Along with the X-Five, I shoot this gun 100 yards on occasion with surprising results. Again, like the X-Five, it may be the best pistol S&W ever built, which says a great deal.

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/cutillo_2009/000_1935.jpg

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/cutillo_2009/000_1936.jpg

bac1023
04-17-2010, 23:00
Sphinx Competitor

Frame: Stainless steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded weight: 40.8oz
Price: $2000
Action: DA/SA

Accuracy: 8
Trigger: 5
Ergonomics: 9
Grips: 8
Sights: 8
Controls: 8
Finish: 9
Build quality: 9

Overall rating: 8.0

Sphinx pistols are CZ clones built in Switzerland with EAA parts. They're very well done overall, but tend to cost a good deal more than their just as capable CZ counterparts. The Competitor was one of the top of the line Sphinx 2000 series pistols. The big difference here is the DA/SA action, which hurts its trigger rating since I much prefer SAO pistols for target use. Ergonomics are typical CZ, so I love them.

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/cutillo_2009/000_1914.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu81/ollituc/000_1915.jpg






HK P7M8

Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded weight: 30.2oz
Price: $1000-$1500
Action: Squeeze cocker

Accuracy: 8
Trigger: 7
Ergonomics: 9
Grips: 8
Sights: 7
Controls: 8
Finish: 7
Build quality: 9

Overall rating: 7.9

The P7M8 gives up quite a bit to the competition as a range pistol. While its fixed barrel helps keep its accuracy with the others, its just not the same platform. Build quality is fantastic, though the P7 bluing has always been on the thin side. They do fit my hand very well, hence the high ergonomic rating. All told, these are very high quality, unique duty pistols that just happen to perform well at the range. As a target pistol, its overmatched by most of this company, but that's certainly nothing to be ashamed of.

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/cutillo_2009/000_1926.jpg

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/cutillo_2009/000_1927.jpg

bac1023
04-17-2010, 23:00
Benelli B76

Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded weight: 34.6oz
Price: $600-$900
Action: DA/SA

Accuracy: 8
Trigger: 5
Ergonomics: 6
Grips: 7
Sights: 7
Controls: 5
Finish: 7
Build quality: 7

Overall rating: 6.5

Why did I include this, you ask? Well, because its an accurate, fixed barrel steel pistol. While its clearly overmatched here, it is a nicely done pistol and certainly very rare. Once again, the DA/SA trigger didn't help its rating, nor did the horrendous safety and odd mag release. Ergonomics are average, but the pistol puts a smile on my face, simply because its so unique. It also has the accuracy to hold its own in this group of high performers.

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu81/ollituc/001-3.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu81/ollituc/004s.jpg






MAB PA-15

Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded weight: 40.8oz
Price: $600-$800
Action: SAO

Accuracy: 6
Trigger: 8
Ergonomics: 9
Grips: 8
Sights: 5
Controls: 9
Finish: 7
Build quality: 8

Overall rating: 7.5

Honestly, I love this French service pistol. It reminds me of a Browning HP, but with a much, much better stock trigger and a more solid feel. The ergonomics, grips, and controls are outstanding for my hands and I love the near 41oz of weight at the range. It features a rotating barrel, as a cool touch. Accuracy may not be quite as good as most the others, but there's no doubt the MAB belongs in this comparison. It actually rated as high as the Sig P210. While its not comparable on many levels, its makes up for quite a bit because it fits me well.

http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr97/briancut1023/010.jpg

http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr97/briancut1023/013-1.jpg

bac1023
04-17-2010, 23:01
Walther P88

Frame: Aluminum
Slide: Steel
Unloaded weight: 31.6oz
Price: $800-$1300
Action: SA/DA

Accuracy: 8
Trigger: 7
Ergonomics: 7
Grips: 6
Sights: 9
Controls: 9
Finish: 7
Build quality: 8

Overall rating: 7.6

The P88 is Walther's aluminum framed service pistol introduced in 1988, hence the name. The price was nearly $1000, which was unheard of in the late 80's, and ultimately doomed the pistol. Aside from all that, what we have here is an outstanding quality service pistol that performs very well at the range. It has one of the best DA/SA triggers I've ever used and some impressive accuracy as well. Controls are well-placed and completely ambidextrous. While I didn't rate these pistols on looks, the P88 may be the nicest looking of the bunch.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n5/bac1023/000_2509.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n5/bac1023/000_2511.jpg






Browning Hi-Power Competition

Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded weight: 36.4oz
Price: $800-$1200
Action: SAO

Accuracy: 7
Trigger: 7
Ergonomics: 9
Grips: 8
Sights: 6
Controls: 7
Finish: 6
Build quality: 8

Overall rating: 7.2

This was FN's attempt to make a competition ready Hi-Power out of the box. While they managed to ruin all the HP's great looks in the process, it does have some enhancements worth discussing. First would be the trigger, it feels about half the weight of standard HP and certainly helps improve its accuracy. The longer barrel also helps, as does the extra weight attached at the end of the slide. While I love the control placement, the small safety is so hard to manipulate, it managed only a "7" rating.

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu81/ollituc/008.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu81/ollituc/009.jpg

bac1023
04-17-2010, 23:01
OK, let's look at a few 40S&W pistols. Its not my favorite caliber, but I'm rating these guns on their attributes, not the caliber they fire.



HK P7M10

Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded weight: 42.8oz
Price: $2000-$3000
Action: Squeeze cocker

Accuracy: 9
Trigger: 7
Ergonomics: 7
Grips: 7
Sights: 7
Controls: 8
Finish: 9
Build quality: 10

Overall rating: 8.0

This pistol is a tank at 42.8oz. It shoots the 40S&W softer than the P7M8 shoots the 9mm. I gave it a slightly higher rating in build quality, only due to the sheer amount of steel used. It also bested the P7M8 in accuracy, because the extra weight enables me to shoot it with more consistency. The overall rating was also a notch better. However, if I were rating these as carry guns, the opposite would be true. The P7M10 is the rarest of the production P7 series and, likewise, the most expensive to buy.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n5/bac1023/000_1960.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n5/bac1023/000_1958.jpg






CZ 75 Champion

Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded weight: 40.6oz
Price: $1500
Action: SAO

Accuracy: 9
Trigger: 10
Ergonomics: 10
Grips: 9
Sights: 10
Controls: 9
Finish: 6
Build quality: 9

Overall rating: 9.0

This is my latest addition and a fantastic pistol, as you can see by the rating. In fact, it was this pistol that gave me the idea for this thread. A ranking that high is even better than I expected. The trigger is no more than 2lbs, with no travel whatsoever. It may be the best trigger in this contest. I only shot 50 rounds through it, but accuracy seemed terrific. Ergonomically, its a CZ 75, so its fantastic. I'm not real big on the finish. It will pass, but its nothing great. Build quality is solid.

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/cutillo_2009/001-2.jpg

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/cutillo_2009/005-2.jpg

bac1023
04-17-2010, 23:02
Beretta 96 Steel I

Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded weight: 42.8oz
Price: $1200-$1800
Action: SAO

Accuracy: 8
Trigger: 7
Ergonomics: 8
Grips: 7
Sights: 7
Controls: 9
Finish: 10
Build quality: 10

Overall rating: 8.3

The Steel I was Beretta's high end SAO pistol based on the 92 and 96. Its another heavyweight, tipping the scales at 42.8oz. The strong point of this pistol is the incredibly solid build quality and outstanding nickel based finish. The vertec ergonomics and controls work well for me. The trigger is precise, but too heavy for what it is. Honestly, it feels like 5-6 lbs. The sights are smallish, but work well enough. This is an impressive gun just to look at.

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/cutillo_2009/000_2249.jpg

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/cutillo_2009/000_2254.jpg

bac1023
04-17-2010, 23:02
We're now going to move on to a couple 45ACP pistols.



HK Mark23

Frame: Polymer
Slide: Steel
Unloaded weight: 39.4oz
Price: $2000
Action: DA/SA

Accuracy: 8
Trigger: 5
Ergonomics: 6
Grips: 7
Sights: 7
Controls: 8
Finish: 9
Build quality: 8

Overall rating: 7.3

Here we have the only polymer framed pistol in the test. I wasn't going to include polymers, but the Mark 23 is an exception. This pistol is large and cumbersome from an ergonomic standpoint, but does perform very well for what it is. The trigger isn't the best, but accuracy remains good. The Mark 23 was originally built for the Navy Seals, but is now more of a novelty item. It features separate controls for the safety and decocker.


http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/cutillo_2009/000_1961.jpg

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/cutillo_2009/000_1963.jpg






Smith & Wesson PC945

Frame: Stainless steel
Slide: Stainless steel
Unloaded weight: 40.6oz
Price: $1500-$2000
Action: SAO

Accuracy: 9
Trigger: 9
Ergonomics: 8
Grips: 8
Sights: 10
Controls: 10
Finish: 9
Build quality: 10

Overall rating: 9.1

The 945 is the most like my favorite handgun, the 1911. Likewise, it got the highest ranking on controls since they're the most familiar to me. Aside from that, the 945 is an outstanding pistol in its own right. The trigger is precise, the action is smooth, and the build quality is just what you'd expect from the Performance center. I actually like the PC945 more than the PC1911. The two tone stainless finish is also very nicely done. This is a terrific handgun.

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/cutillo_2009/000_1937.jpg

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/cutillo_2009/000_1938.jpg

bac1023
04-17-2010, 23:02
My last two entries are chambered in 38 Special and 38 Super, respectively.



Smith & Wesson 52

Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded weight: 40.4oz
Price: $800-$1200
Action: SAO

Accuracy: 10
Trigger: 10
Ergonomics: 8
Grips: 8
Sights: 10
Controls: 6
Finish: 8
Build quality: 9

Overall rating: 8.6

The S&W 52 is strictly a bullseye gun, shooting 38 Special wadcutters only. It holds only 5 rounds in its mag, so this is the most competition focused gun here. The 52 was built long before the Performance Center was around and is the gun the PC952 is based on. Like the 952, the safety is terrible. However, unlike the 952, this would never be used as a carry gun. The trigger and accuracy rank among the top of the heap. The sights are large and easy to see and the build quality is outstanding.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n5/bac1023/000_1902.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n5/bac1023/000_1903.jpg






Tanfoglio Limited

Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded weight: 45.0oz
Price: $1100
Action: SAO

Accuracy: 8
Trigger: 9
Ergonomics: 8
Grips: 9
Sights: 9
Controls: 9
Finish: 9
Build quality: 8

Overall rating: 8.6

This is another CZ clone, built in Italy. The Limited moniker designates a race ready frame and some tricked out features, such as a huge magwell for fast reloads. For the price, you can't beat it, and it actually rated very highly due to its trigger and ergonomics. Its got the ingredients of a great target pistol. The hard chrome finish is very decent and accuracy is on par with this group of elite handguns. 38 Super is a fun caliber to boot.


http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n5/bac1023/000_1975.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n5/bac1023/000_1972.jpg

bac1023
04-17-2010, 23:03
Now that I'm done, I'm surprised with a few of the results. I did not expect the P210 to place as low as it did and I sure didn't expect the Witness to place as high as it did. Like I said, I'm ranking them strictly as range guns and how well they shoot, handle, and feel at the range. I'm not ranking them solely on quality. If I had, the outcome would have been much different.

Having said all that, even the lowest ranking gun here is still an awesome pistol and there are other great handguns of mine that I didn't include for one reason or another.

Here are a few pics of the players ranking them from highest to lowest in this study.


http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr97/briancut1023/014.jpg

http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr97/briancut1023/015-2.jpg

http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr97/briancut1023/017.jpg


The Sig X-Five came out on top as the best overall non-1911 range gun from the models I own. It is an awesome pistol in every way. Despite its price, its still a value for what you get.

This was not a head to head comparison, as there is no way I'd bring all these pistols to the range at once. Rather its a comparison of my impressions of each and I was as honest as possible.

I hope whoever took the time to read it all found it informative and interesting. To keep this thread from being too lengthy, I was very brief in my descriptions. However, please feel free to ask for more info on any particular model.

Thanks for your interest in my thread. :wavey:

raven11
04-17-2010, 23:15
tagged for future reference, thanks for taking the time to write the review

ronin.45
04-17-2010, 23:32
Great comparison Bac. I do love that Pardini.

I've wanted an X-5 since they were introduced.

BOGE
04-17-2010, 23:35
Where do you live Bac and when do you go on vacation? :whistling:



:supergrin::rofl: Nice presentation. Very nicely & tastefully done. :wavey:

moeman
04-17-2010, 23:36
Very interesting! Thanks!!!

So when you came up w/ the numbers for the trigger how did you go about it... Feel plus trigger gauge??

e.g. for a gun w/ a trigger of "5" in this setting could it be a "8" in a home defense setting and vice versa?

I know I would not want a 2-3 lb trigger in my nightstand gun.

BTW: The biggest surprise to me is that the SIG 210 was rated so low. I trust your evaluation, not calling you out. I've only read about them.

Could you make a list form the above of the gens that can also fill the home defense role. eg I have a P7M8 and while ts not my go to gun I would have no problem trusting it for self defense. I also have a revolver that is great for the range but due to its light trigger I never would use it for self defense.

bac1023
04-17-2010, 23:45
Very interesting! Thanks!!!

So when you came up w/ the numbers for the trigger how did you go about it... Feel plus trigger gauge??

e.g. for a gun w/ a trigger of "5" in this setting could it be a "8" in a home defense setting and vice versa?

I know I would not want a 2-3 lb trigger in my nightstand gun.

BTW: The biggest surprise to me is that the SIG 210 was rated so low. I trust your evaluation, not calling you out. I've only read about them.

Could you make a list form the above of the gens that can also fill the home defense role. eg I have a P7M8 and while ts not my go to gun I would have no problem trusting it for self defense. I also have a revolver that is great for the range but due to its light trigger I never would use it for self defense.


Sure moeman.

The trigger rating was done only by my preference, weight, and feel. They all have good triggers, but for the range, I prefer SAO with a light, crisp break. The CZ Champion, X-Five, Pardini, and the PC Smiths have the best, in my opinion.

As for the P210, its an old military pistol desin being compared to a bunch of modern target/competition guns. The small sights also hurt its accuracy, so one rating can affect another. Now, there are P210s with larger target sights, mine isn't one of them.

Based strictly on quality, the P210 is second to none. Its a legend for good reason.

As for home defense, I wouldn't use the big, bulky pistols like the X-Five, Pardini, Mark 23, or Tanfoglio. I also wouldn't use compensated pistols, such as the Champion or Competitor. The S&W 52 is out because of the ammo it fires. All others would do fine as an HD weapon.

Hope this helps.






.

Jim B in CO
04-18-2010, 00:02
Great thread and a lot of really good info. Thanks for taking the time to post it. :thumbsup:

Chonny
04-18-2010, 00:49
Absolutely great thread. Sig X-Five. Mmm.

sk65
04-18-2010, 03:29
Excellent job! I'm not surprised you put my favorite (X-Five) on the top of the list.

Doc226
04-18-2010, 04:36
Great review

Golddog
04-18-2010, 06:44
An instant classic thread. Thanks a lot, Bac. This is as close as most of us will ever get to testing these magnificent specimens.

And great photography, as ever.

joecoastie
04-18-2010, 07:55
Great thread! Thanks for taking the time to post it. I really like the 952 and 945. Reading your various posts here on GT has definitely helped me develop a taste for fine firearms.

G33
04-18-2010, 07:57
So many words!
:wavey::wavey:

bac1023
04-18-2010, 08:07
So many words!
:wavey::wavey:

Believe me, I know. :faint:

I was determined to get it done and completed it all in one day. Threads like this are cool and I enjoy working on them to an extent, but it can get tiresome real quick. :sigh:

bluelineman
04-18-2010, 08:38
Based on reading this & knowing that you have every 1911 ever made, I'm guessing that you:

1. Have a good job
2. Are not married! (I don't know any married guys that have this many guns)
3. Have a good carpet cleaner ;)
4. Are the envy of many people on GT, myself included :supergrin:

El_Ron1
04-18-2010, 08:39
Who won?

longhair
04-18-2010, 08:41
Bac- thanks for the great reviews. I, too, thought the sig 210 would rank higher, but I understand your reasoning for its score. Overall, a great source for some fine firearms.

bac1023
04-18-2010, 08:51
Who won?

The X-Five ranked the highest. That said, I actually like the 952 more.

However, for the purpose of this test, I had to take everything into consideration. The controls on the Sig are better and the Nills make it better ergonomically for my hand.

It matches the 952 in every other catagory, including accuracy, so I couldn't see fit to rank it as high. I guess I like the 952's slim profile and elegant looks better.

Berto
04-18-2010, 08:57
Nice work, Bac!!

Now do your favorite target revolvers.:supergrin:

Did this last week, Target Masterpiece model 14 K frame, 25yrds offhand.

http://brenny.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Range&action=display&thread=5217&page=1

bac1023
04-18-2010, 09:04
Nice work, Bac!!

Now do your favorite target revolvers.:supergrin:



That's an idea, Berto.

I don't think I've ever posted a revolver test on this forum.

I have some nice wheelguns, but not nearly the variety like I have with autos.

bac1023
04-18-2010, 09:05
Did this last week, Target Masterpiece model 14 K frame, 25yrds offhand.

http://brenny.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Range&action=display&thread=5217&page=1

Berto, your link isn't working. :dunno:

RWBlue
04-18-2010, 09:52
You gave a detailed spec. You rated them on your subjective criteria, but you didn't hit on the one item I want to know. How do they shoot? Groups man, post your groups, or better yet hold a party and have 6-10 people shoot and post all the groups.

Berto
04-18-2010, 09:56
Berto, your link isn't working. :dunno:

Ah, private forum, that's why.

Just picture a target with 6 holes siamesed on the top left corner of the ten ring, about 1.25" C-C. :supergrin:

bac1023
04-18-2010, 10:09
Ah, private forum, that's why.

Just picture a target with 6 holes siamesed on the top left corner of the ten ring, about 1.25" C-C. :supergrin:

:thumbsup:

12131
04-18-2010, 10:16
What happened? Here I thought, all this time, you contribute nothing to the forum.
You know, I'm just substituting for the bac bashers, since they're not here, today. :supergrin::tongueout:







Thanks for the great thread.:wavey::cool:

Glockdude1
04-18-2010, 10:44
Excellent posts Bac!!

:thumbsup:

bac1023
04-18-2010, 11:04
What happened? Here I thought, all this time, you contribute nothing to the forum.
You know, I'm just substituting for the bac bashers, since they're not here, today. :supergrin::tongueout:



Thanks for the great thread.:wavey::cool:


:rofl:

Thanks!

happyguy
04-18-2010, 11:13
A worthy post!

Regards,
Happyguy :)

CharlestonG26
04-18-2010, 11:13
Well done. :wave::wave:

bac1023
04-18-2010, 11:22
A worthy post!

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Well done. :wave::wave:

Thanks guys.

I appreciate that. :cool:

bac1023
04-18-2010, 11:24
You gave a detailed spec. You rated them on your subjective criteria, but you didn't hit on the one item I want to know. How do they shoot? Groups man, post your groups, or better yet hold a party and have 6-10 people shoot and post all the groups.

Wow, that would be something to see. :supergrin:

Seriously, I hear you on the groups. I was just at the range, but only brought the CZ Champion out of this bunch, since I just got it.

Hines57
04-18-2010, 11:28
Now if you just had a 229 sport to throw in the mix....

bac1023
04-18-2010, 11:29
Now if you just had a 229 sport to throw in the mix....

...its on my list for later this year. ;)

I also want an HK P7M13 and a Walther P88 Compact for the collection.

bac1023
04-18-2010, 15:56
Based on reading this & knowing that you have every 1911 ever made, I'm guessing that you:

1. Have a good job
2. Are not married! (I don't know any married guys that have this many guns)
3. Have a good carpet cleaner ;)
4. Are the envy of many people on GT, myself included :supergrin:

:rofl:

1 and 2 for sure. :supergrin:


...not sure about 3 or 4. :wavey:

D3S3RT_P3NGU1N
04-18-2010, 16:07
Excellent post, a great read :thumbsup:

GlockPride
04-18-2010, 16:08
Thanks for that! It was a delight even though I doubt I'll ever be able to afford any of those.

checkyoursix
04-18-2010, 16:20
Thank you, very interesting review of some very interesting pistols. Concise, consistent and faithful to its premises, a rarity these days.

unit1069
04-18-2010, 16:32
Wow! Great job, bac! Well-written, concise, and informative. This is exactly the kind of information that is so fascinating to me.

I say make this thread a "stickie".

unit1069
04-18-2010, 16:38
Deleted; double post

bac1023
04-18-2010, 19:28
Thanks for that! It was a delight even though I doubt I'll ever be able to afford any of those.

No, thank you actually. :wavey:

You know, that's what gave me some pause before writting this thread.

I've been truly fortunate to own these fine pistols, but I certainly didn't want the thread to be taken the wrong way by anyone.

So far, so good, I think. :)

However, other than the simple fact that I'm a collector, there is no reason even an avid shooter would need more than one or two of these. I look at this thread as a way of helping somebody choose the best one for them. Like I said, if anyone would like more detail about a particular pistol, feel free to ask.

UniversalBrow06
04-18-2010, 20:24
Complete target pistol beauty. Very well done. I want your Pardini. Bad.

Honestly, I'm just a little... little... tad curious how some of your high end 1911's stack up, but I'll trust your judgment in excluding them from the rankings.

Ok, I'll take your Mark 23 as well... really any of your HK's.

bac1023
04-18-2010, 20:34
Complete target pistol beauty. Very well done. I want your Pardini. Bad.

Honestly, I'm just a little... little... tad curious how some of your high end 1911's stack up, but I'll trust your judgment in excluding them from the rankings.

Ok, I'll take your Mark 23 as well... really any of your HK's.

Thanks.

In my opinion, 1911s should be tested against each other, but I certainly understand your curiosity.

I'm going to put together some sort of 1911 buyers guide at some point, but the format will be a bit different than this thread.

UniversalBrow06
04-18-2010, 20:36
Thanks.

In my opinion, 1911s should be tested against each other, but I certainly understand your curiosity.

I'm going to put together some sort of 1911 buyers guide at some point, but the format will be a bit different than this thread.

shucks, I didn't trick you into it. :tongueout:

bac1023
04-18-2010, 20:52
shucks, I didn't trick you into it. :tongueout:

I'll tell you what, I'll try to add a few of my best 1911s into this thread over the next few days. :cool:

Being that the 1911 is my favorite platform and that I own some full custom models built to the most minute detail, they should mop up these target pistols. A few of best semi customs will score very well also.

As good as they are, these are all production pistols, so going up against some of my 1911s isn't really fair.

TexasVine
04-18-2010, 20:53
Great post. It was definately an education! Thanks.

Cole125
04-18-2010, 20:55
:yourock: Thanks for taking the time to post the comparison. Just finished reading it all. Very helpful as I am in the market for a high end target type pistol myself. :wavey:

You should start your own youtube channel, you would be a big hit! Think about it at least.

bac1023
04-18-2010, 20:59
:yourock: Thanks for taking the time to post the comparison. Just finished reading it all. Very helpful as I am in the market for a high end target type pistol myself. :wavey:



That's awesome Cole. :cool:

Feedback like this from you and many others makes writing threads like this worth the time.

Let me know when you're ready to make a purchase.

DEADLYACCURATE
04-18-2010, 20:59
tagged :wavey:

THEPOPE
04-18-2010, 21:18
Couldn't have gotten a better review in any magazine.........pics as well, and prices.....

I smell a sticky.....if not, then I simply smell..........

a.

sticky.


I am out.......:cool:

bac1023
04-19-2010, 04:30
Couldn't have gotten a better review in any magazine.........pics as well, and prices.....

I smell a sticky.....if not, then I simply smell..........

a.

sticky.


I am out.......:cool:

If not, a search will easily bring it up. :)

gnepig
04-19-2010, 10:13
Job well done= this thread rates a 9 for profesionalism..

nathanours
04-19-2010, 14:29
Thanks for the review, I really will not be able to afford any of these pistols any time soon, but I live looking at your pictures.

true believer
04-19-2010, 16:56
made the thread a sticky..if it gets out of hand we can close it..thanks for thr research..
:cool:

glock2740
04-19-2010, 17:30
Very cool. I bet that did take awhile.

GreyEclipse
04-19-2010, 17:36
Great read! I'm not really into the "target/bulls-eye" type handguns, I prefer "combat" handguns but it was still very interesting and I always enjoy hearing your input on a certain or guns. Thanks for taking the time to write it all out! :cool:

bac1023
04-19-2010, 17:41
made the thread a sticky..if it gets out of hand we can close it..thanks for thr research..
:cool:

No problem. :)

Thanks for the sticky. :wavey:

ranger88
04-19-2010, 19:51
Great job on the review, Brian. I always appreciate your perspective on these types of firearms (and 1911's of course).

So far I only have a few of the guns that you reviewed, but the collection keeps growing. After my upcoming wedding, I'll be back to collecting with a purpose instead of just being a victim of opportunity. Hahahaha..... :supergrin:

Rinspeed
04-20-2010, 18:57
Very cool Brian :thumbsup:, thanks for putting this together my friend. I'm going to buy you a ransom rest for Christmas.

bac1023
04-20-2010, 20:36
Very cool Brian :thumbsup:, thanks for putting this together my friend. I'm going to buy you a ransom rest for Christmas.

Yeah, I need one. ;)

bac1023
04-20-2010, 21:20
As promised, here are a couple of my best 1911s to add to the mix for comparison.





Infinity custom

Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded weight: 39.0oz
Price: $3700
Action: SAO

Accuracy: 10
Trigger: 10
Ergonomics: 10
Grips: 9
Sights: 10
Controls: 10
Finish: 9
Build quality: 10

Overall rating: 9.8

This comparison is almost unfair, as the Infinity is a one off custom build being compared to a bunch of production pistols. The Schumann AET barrel is about the best handgun barrel you can buy anywhere. Between this and the incredible tight bull barrel lockup, the Infinity just flat out shoots. The trigger is the patented Tri-glide system at about 1.5 lbs. Its the best trigger on any handgun I own. The Infinicoat finish is impressive and its extremely well built by some very skilled hands.

http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr97/briancut1023/000_2429.jpg

http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr97/briancut1023/000_2411.jpg






RRA Limited Match

Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded weight: 41.4oz
Price: $2400
Action: SAO

Accuracy: 10
Trigger: 9
Ergonomics: 10
Grips: 9
Sights: 10
Controls: 10
Finish: 9
Build quality: 10

Overall rating: 9.6

I've given this 1911 many accolades throughout the years I've owned it. I love everything about the Limited Match and the price includes the Black T finish. Unfortunately, RRA has stopped building 1911s, but they can be found once in a while on the used market. This model comes standard with a 1.5" accuracy guarantee at 50 yards and every feature you could want in a 1911. The Kart barrel also performs very well.

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu81/ollituc/011-3.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu81/ollituc/014-3.jpg

G33
04-20-2010, 22:16
Something stickey around here.
:supergrin:

Palouse
04-20-2010, 22:24
Great write up...thank you for your time you put into this.

bob_fuller
04-22-2010, 20:34
wow! that's pretty cool stuff, sir.

GRD67
04-22-2010, 21:53
Great post Bac, just curious, where would you rate the Glock in there?

NOLA_glock
04-22-2010, 22:20
That comparative review was awesome! You're always so knowledgeable and helpful on the subject of 1911s, and it's great that you took the time to do such a concise write-up covering multiple platforms.

I'm a little disconcerted with the lack of carpeting variety, however.:tongueout:



http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr97/briancut1023/000_2411.jpg


That gold barrel be gangsta, dawg!!:cool:

Thanks again! Keep up the good posting, BAC.

rfd339
04-23-2010, 00:13
Thank you for your time for doing this great review. Being a 40sw fan I really like the write up on the CZ75 Champion .

bac1023
04-24-2010, 19:00
Thank you for your time for doing this great review. Being a 40sw fan I really like the write up on the CZ75 Champion .

Glad to hear.

Thank you. :)

Quack
04-30-2010, 17:57
Nice!!!

so i was driving home today and i was listening to a podcast, and thought "hmmm...bac1023 should do a podcast about the different guns he owns"
with 1911's that's about 47 episodes in itself :supergrin:

jp3975
05-01-2010, 08:24
Great post.

bac1023
05-01-2010, 17:42
Nice!!!

so i was driving home today and i was listening to a podcast, and thought "hmmm...bac1023 should do a podcast about the different guns he owns"
with 1911's that's about 47 episodes in itself :supergrin:

:rofl:

gruntmedik
05-01-2010, 19:19
Very nice review, as usual. :thumbsup:


Next review should be along the lines of suitable carpet for handgun pics. :supergrin:

deadite
05-01-2010, 20:11
How did I miss this thread? I guess I sorta ignore the stickies.

Nice work BAC! I dig the 38 Special wadcutter calibered Smith!

deadite

bac1023
05-01-2010, 23:31
Very nice review, as usual. :thumbsup:


Next review should be along the lines of suitable carpet for handgun pics. :supergrin:

Thanks! :rofl:

bac1023
05-01-2010, 23:31
How did I miss this thread? I guess I sorta ignore the stickies.

Nice work BAC! I dig the 38 Special wadcutter calibered Smith!

deadite

Thanks deadite.

Yeah, the stickies are easy to pass by without even realizing it.

iconoclast
05-06-2010, 03:11
Hello bac,

I appreciate the time and effort you placed into your post, as I have considered purchasing a few of the models you have listed.

I would love to hear your opinions on several more models I am still considering, particularly with regard to (listed in general order of my priority)
1. trigger (weight, feel, action)
I consider the CZ Tactical sport the benchmark target pistol trigger and assume your CZ champion has a very similar if not identical trigger action.

2. ergonomics (grip size, angle, trigger distance, balance, weight)
I would likely place the CZ-SPO-1 or SIG 226 X5 Level 1 as the benchmarks in this category.

3. sights

4. recoil and weight


Models I am considering include:

1. Beretta 92 Steel
- now ruled out based upon your description of the trigger.

2. S&W PPC 9mm
- likely ruled out as it is no longer available from the factory.

3. Beretta 92 Combat
- likely ruled out as it is no longer available from the factory.

4. Beretta 92 Target
- likely ruled out as it is no longer available from the factory.

5. Tanfoglio Gold Team Elite 9mm
- in particular I would like to hear your comparisons between this model and the CZ Tactical Sport and Champion.
-I was seriously considering this gun for its factory compensator, ported barrel, and fitted magazine well but eventually passed due to numerous reports of difficult repair and parts availability and very poor customer service.

6. HK USP expert 9mm
- likely ruled out as it is no longer available from the factory.

7. HK USP Elite 9mm
- likely ruled out as it is no longer available from the factory.

8. Glock 17L with Vanek trigger kit
- I already own this, but would like your opinion for comparisons to other models (above).

9. CCF raceframe with g34 or g17L slide
- I already own this, but would like your opinion for comparisons to other models (above).

10. STI Targetmaster, 9mm
- I already essentially ruled this pistol out secondary to its ergonomics, and expensive, limited capacity, and questionably reliable magazines, though I would like to hear your experiences and comparisons


Many thanks for your insight.

SSR

1911ES
05-06-2010, 03:51
Excellent work, and super pictures in this very informative, and I'm sure, time consuming Post .... :wow:
How many years did it take to accumulate this fine arsenal of pistols ? Again, very cool thread ..... :bowdown:

bac1023
05-06-2010, 07:37
Excellent work, and super pictures in this very informative, and I'm sure, time consuming Post .... :wow:
How many years did it take to accumulate this fine arsenal of pistols ? Again, very cool thread ..... :bowdown:


Thanks for the compliments.

I've been collecting handguns for a long time, but all the pistols in this thread were purchased over the last four years or so.

bac1023
05-06-2010, 08:26
Hello bac,

I appreciate the time and effort you placed into your post, as I have considered purchasing a few of the models you have listed.

I would love to hear your opinions on several more models I am still considering, particularly with regard to (listed in general order of my priority)
1. trigger (weight, feel, action)
I consider the CZ Tactical sport the benchmark target pistol trigger and assume your CZ champion has a very similar if not identical trigger action.

2. ergonomics (grip size, angle, trigger distance, balance, weight)
I would likely place the CZ-SPO-1 or SIG 226 X5 Level 1 as the benchmarks in this category.

3. sights

4. recoil and weight


Models I am considering include:

1. Beretta 92 Steel
- now ruled out based upon your description of the trigger.

2. S&W PPC 9mm
- likely ruled out as it is no longer available from the factory.

3. Beretta 92 Combat
- likely ruled out as it is no longer available from the factory.

4. Beretta 92 Target
- likely ruled out as it is no longer available from the factory.

5. Tanfoglio Gold Team Elite 9mm
- in particular I would like to hear your comparisons between this model and the CZ Tactical Sport and Champion.
-I was seriously considering this gun for its factory compensator, ported barrel, and fitted magazine well but eventually passed due to numerous reports of difficult repair and parts availability and very poor customer service.

6. HK USP expert 9mm
- likely ruled out as it is no longer available from the factory.

7. HK USP Elite 9mm
- likely ruled out as it is no longer available from the factory.

8. Glock 17L with Vanek trigger kit
- I already own this, but would like your opinion for comparisons to other models (above).

9. CCF raceframe with g34 or g17L slide
- I already own this, but would like your opinion for comparisons to other models (above).

10. STI Targetmaster, 9mm
- I already essentially ruled this pistol out secondary to its ergonomics, and expensive, limited capacity, and questionably reliable magazines, though I would like to hear your experiences and comparisons


Many thanks for your insight.

SSR


Wow, let's see.

For starters, I do believe the CZ TS and Champion have identical triggers, though CZ claims the Champion has more hand fitting in the building process. Either way, they both have outstanding triggers. Since the Champion is gone now, the Tactical Sport is pretty much CZ's top pistol.

The Smith PPC-9 is for all intents and purposes, a double stack 952.

The Tanfoglio triggers are very nice. I have the Limited, which has the same trigger as the Gold series. That said, its not as light or crisp as the Champion's trigger.

I don't have any experience with the Vanek trigger kit, so I can't comment.

As far as the STI is concerned, I don't feel its quite up to the quality level as some of these target pistols. I do love the 1911 trigger, but for the price of some of these pistols, you can get a better 1911 then the Targetmaster.

Thge USP Expert and Elites are nice pistols, but I don't feel they have triggers on par with some of these SAO models.

The Berettas are also very nice, but I'd take the Steel model over the Target or Combat.

FWIW, I would not rule out a pistol just because its no longer in production.

Hope this helps somewhat. :)

iconoclast
05-06-2010, 21:56
Once again bac,

Thanks for your time and effort.

Your opinions on the Beretta Steel, SW PPC 9, Tanfoglio, and STI are particularly helpful - I suppose I can put those issues to rest and keep my eyes open for a nice PPC 9 and/or CZ champion (it seems someone recently purchased the last one on the continent :supergrin:).


Good luck and happy collecting.


SSR

bac1023
05-12-2010, 21:11
Once again bac,

Thanks for your time and effort.

Your opinions on the Beretta Steel, SW PPC 9, Tanfoglio, and STI are particularly helpful - I suppose I can put those issues to rest and keep my eyes open for a nice PPC 9 and/or CZ champion (it seems someone recently purchased the last one on the continent :supergrin:).


Good luck and happy collecting.


SSR

Thanks.

Glad you liked the report. :)

Tactical black
06-07-2010, 12:22
Great review Brian I can't believe I missed this thread so far I can't wait to see your 1911 buyers guide. :cool:

awtCZ
06-07-2010, 13:22
Great review Brian I can't believe I missed this thread so far I can't wait to see your 1911 buyers guide. :cool:

You're welcome for the heads up! :whistling:

Tactical black
06-07-2010, 18:15
You're welcome for the heads up! :whistling:

Thanks man :)

bac1023
06-07-2010, 21:01
Great review Brian I can't believe I missed this thread so far I can't wait to see your 1911 buyers guide. :cool:

Thanks. :)

Yeah, I need to get working on that at some point. :sigh:

Rinspeed
06-08-2010, 04:22
Thanks. :)

Yeah, I need to get working on that at some point. :sigh:




Let me know when you want to start. :whistling:

dne752
06-08-2010, 04:44
That's an idea, Berto.

I don't think I've ever posted a revolver test on this forum.

I have some nice wheelguns, but not nearly the variety like I have with autos.

A Colt, Ruger, S&W and anything else you've got tucked away "shootout" of the .357 caliber would be interesting. No raceguns or performance center gun, maybe replacement grips and small DIY tweeks.

bac1023
06-09-2010, 16:01
Let me know when you want to start. :whistling:



:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Chonny
06-13-2010, 17:32
This thread is an absolute sham. Not one damn 1911 in the entire review.

Just kidding.

I would really love to get a P226 X Five.

bac1023
06-13-2010, 19:47
This thread is an absolute sham. Not one damn 1911 in the entire review.





:rofl:

bac1023
06-13-2010, 19:48
I would really love to get a P226 X Five.

You wouldn't be disappointed. :)

ctfireman
07-14-2010, 14:16
Awesome write up! I can't believe i never saw this thread before.

LEAD
07-14-2010, 14:24
I thought there were a lot of feeding problems with the x five


how about who makes the best .22lr target pistol?

bac1023
07-14-2010, 15:21
I thought there were a lot of feeding problems with the x five


how about who makes the best .22lr target pistol?

I never had a single issue with my X-Five.

As far as a rinfire goes, the S&W 41 would be my nice. However, I don't spend much on rimfires.

bac1023
07-14-2010, 16:02
Awesome write up! I can't believe i never saw this thread before.

Thanks! :cool:

Sticky threads can get overlooked easily. I've done it many times. :embarassed:

tog
08-09-2010, 20:26
good job bac

that sig is delicious
and some of the others in there surely need to be looked at as well

ET.
08-10-2010, 08:26
Shoot, I can do that. Sorry I don't have the pictures though, but here goes...

My Hi-Point is a Jennings clone and a darn good one if you ask me. I like the way it doesn't fit in my hand. But when I compare it to my S&W Sigma I can tell that the Sigma is cheap and built to stay that way. I can't hit the broad side of a barn with it because the 12 lbs. trigger pull requires me to squeeze so hard it ends up aimed at the sky or the guy next to me at the range.:wow: He rated it a 4, at least that is how many knuckles I saw coming at me right before I passed out.

So...do I get a sticky also?

bac1023
08-14-2010, 18:45
Shoot, I can do that. Sorry I don't have the pictures though, but here goes...

My Hi-Point is a Jennings clone and a darn good one if you ask me. I like the way it doesn't fit in my hand. But when I compare it to my S&W Sigma I can tell that the Sigma is cheap and built to stay that way. I can't hit the broad side of a barn with it because the 12 lbs. trigger pull requires me to squeeze so hard it ends up aimed at the sky or the guy next to me at the range.:wow: He rated it a 4, at least that is how many knuckles I saw coming at me right before I passed out.

So...do I get a sticky also?

:rofl:

Tactical black
08-16-2010, 09:55
Shoot, I can do that. Sorry I don't have the pictures though, but here goes...

My Hi-Point is a Jennings clone and a darn good one if you ask me. I like the way it doesn't fit in my hand. But when I compare it to my S&W Sigma I can tell that the Sigma is cheap and built to stay that way. I can't hit the broad side of a barn with it because the 12 lbs. trigger pull requires me to squeeze so hard it ends up aimed at the sky or the guy next to me at the range.:wow: He rated it a 4, at least that is how many knuckles I saw coming at me right before I passed out.

So...do I get a sticky also?

I vote yes if you can come the stories coming :rofl::rofl::rofl:

iconoclast
08-19-2010, 01:57
So when do you plan on adding this to your collection?


http://www.czub.cz/en/catalog/240-subcompact-compact-standart-competition-adapters/PCOM/CZ_75_TS_CZECHMATE.aspx



http://czcustom.com/checkmatets.aspx



http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/08/03/cz-75-czechmate-pistol-coming-stateside/

http://stuartwong.wordpress.com/2010/07/30/165/

http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/08/robert-farago/czechmate-cz-75-land-stateside/

"Cold Dead Hands" !
08-24-2010, 23:32
G34 or G35 would rate #1, but you don't have one yet.
Good news is, the G34 is half the price & weight, with twice the capacity.

bac1023
08-25-2010, 04:11
G34 or G35 would rate #1, but you don't have one yet.
Good news is, the G34 is half the price & weight, with twice the capacity.

:rofl:

Really, the G34 holds more rounds than the Sig X-Five and Pardini GT-9? Now that's impressive!

This thread isn't about weight, cost, or capacity.





.

one eye joe
10-03-2010, 14:16
A VERY interesting thread, indeed. Thanks for your time and effort. As a shooter of handguns in combat, competition, hunting, self defense, and just plinking over the past 50+ years, I must say that the 9mm is my LEAST favorite caliber for any of the aforementioned purposes. Obviously you are knowledgeable, so I'm wondering what prompts you to make the statement that the 9mm is your favorite ''range caliber'' (whatever that implies). I'm a 45ACP lover, and have carried a Colt 1911 almost daily since 1968. I realize you collect 1911s and didn't test any, but that sheds no light on your statement, and just adds to my curiosity.......

bac1023
10-04-2010, 19:43
A VERY interesting thread, indeed. Thanks for your time and effort. As a shooter of handguns in combat, competition, hunting, self defense, and just plinking over the past 50+ years, I must say that the 9mm is my LEAST favorite caliber for any of the aforementioned purposes. Obviously you are knowledgeable, so I'm wondering what prompts you to make the statement that the 9mm is your favorite ''range caliber'' (whatever that implies). I'm a 45ACP lover, and have carried a Colt 1911 almost daily since 1968. I realize you collect 1911s and didn't test any, but that sheds no light on your statement, and just adds to my curiosity.......

Joe, I honestly just like the way the 9mm handles. I also love all the cool pistols chambered for it.

The thread wasn't about 1911s, but I did add a couple later on at some member's request.

They're in post #70.

one eye joe
10-04-2010, 20:14
BAC1023, You are certainly entitled to your preferences and opinions. I am just surprised that a person of your knowledge/experience would embrace the 9mm to such a degree. Thanks for responding to me, and best wishes. PS..I checked post#70. Those are some GORGEOUS 1911s ! !

bac1023
10-06-2010, 20:46
BAC1023, You are certainly entitled to your preferences and opinions. I am just surprised that a person of your knowledge/experience would embrace the 9mm to such a degree. Thanks for responding to me, and best wishes. PS..I checked post#70. Those are some GORGEOUS 1911s ! !

Thanks Joe.

Yeah, the 9mm may be my favorite round, with the 45ACP a close second. :)

Spdjunkie
10-07-2010, 12:39
Yeah, the 9mm may be my favorite round, with the 45ACP a close second. :)
:agree:, Same for me

bac1023
10-31-2010, 19:47
:agree:, Same for me

:cool:

Gallium
12-09-2010, 16:18
Late tag.



Excellent work sir!

'Drew

Roger G23
12-14-2010, 20:40
And I thought I was a pistol enthusiest...wow, I'm humbled.
Just one issue, I can't believe the CZ Shadow is not listed among the best 9mms in the world, as i truly believe, it must be.

bac1023
12-14-2010, 21:14
And I thought I was a pistol enthusiest...wow, I'm humbled.
Just one issue, I can't believe the CZ Shadow is not listed among the best 9mms in the world, as i truly believe, it must be.

Thanks.

As for the Shadow, I don't own one. However, I don't doubt its fantastic. CZ makes some incredible handguns. I love the Champion I have in 40S&W.

bac1023
12-14-2010, 21:14
Late tag.



Excellent work sir!

'Drew

Thanks Drew :cool:

Carrabelli
12-26-2010, 20:03
Fantastic review Thanks for your time and effort.

bac1023
01-02-2011, 08:15
Fantastic review Thanks for your time and effort.

Thanks!

AustinTx
01-15-2011, 00:44
That took some time & work. I've never even seen most of the guns shown.

Thank you bac:snoopy:

bac1023
01-22-2011, 20:33
That took some time & work. I've never even seen most of the guns shown.

Thank you bac:snoopy:

Thanks for the kind words. :wavey:

Jack23
01-28-2011, 17:34
Great and informative Post! I enjoyed it a lot. Just one question. Couldn't ya find even one spot to wiggle a Glock in there somewhere? :whistling: Those are all very exotic sounding weapons you list and I've only had a chance to hold 2 or three of them in my hand. I'd sure like to be your range assistant next time you put one of these together, you betcha. :winkie:

Thanks for the effort.

bac1023
02-20-2011, 12:25
Great and informative Post! I enjoyed it a lot. Just one question. Couldn't ya find even one spot to wiggle a Glock in there somewhere? :whistling: Those are all very exotic sounding weapons you list and I've only had a chance to hold 2 or three of them in my hand. I'd sure like to be your range assistant next time you put one of these together, you betcha. :winkie:

Thanks for the effort.

Thanks.

When I get a G34, maybe I'll see what I can do. :)

Glock40man
03-06-2011, 23:22
Thanks for taking the time to write this review bac. I will buy a X-5 someday.

bac1023
03-24-2011, 04:30
Thanks for taking the time to write this review bac. I will buy a X-5 someday.

Cool.

You won't regret it. :)

Top_Shot_31
05-13-2011, 22:15
I think I speak for the entire group here when I say the following.

Great collection, you son of a B****. ;)

bac1023
06-07-2011, 17:46
I think I speak for the entire group here when I say the following.

Great collection, you son of a B****. ;)

LOL Thanks! :wavey:

C0untZer0
07-31-2011, 00:16
I can't find the Sig X-Five L1 on Sig-Sauer's website.

What is the exact nomenclature of the pistol?

bac1023
08-20-2011, 17:40
I can't find the Sig X-Five L1 on Sig-Sauer's website.

What is the exact nomenclature of the pistol?

http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p226-x-five.aspx

hercster
08-21-2011, 11:38
Believe me, I know. :faint:

I was determined to get it done and completed it all in one day. Threads like this are cool and I enjoy working on them to an extent, but it can get tiresome real quick. :sigh:

I'll add my words of thanks to the others. I have a SIG X-five Allround that has been "Grayed" so I'm happy to see one of my favourites at the top of your list. I am waiting for the delivery of a SIG P210 Legend Target that based on your comments would move up the list on several counts. The safety has been improved and from what I have read, SIG does a great job on the finish. Add the thumb activated mag release better sights and I suspect the P210 would be up there with the front runners.

I know exactly what you mean about the effort involved in writing at above casual standards. I've done quite a bit of writing and can vouch for the fact that it is hard work. Hemmingway is said to have rewritten passages many times before they got to the editor. One of the qualities of good writing is the show of respect for the readers. Thanks again for all the effort.

bac1023
08-21-2011, 12:00
I'll add my words of thanks to the others. I have a SIG X-five Allround that has been "Grayed" so I'm happy to see one of my favourites at the top of your list. I am waiting for the delivery of a SIG P210 Legend Target that based on your comments would move up the list on several counts. The safety has been improved and from what I have read, SIG does a great job on the finish. Add the thumb activated mag release better sights and I suspect the P210 would be up there with the front runners.

I know exactly what you mean about the effort involved in writing at above casual standards. I've done quite a bit of writing and can vouch for the fact that it is hard work. Hemmingway is said to have rewritten passages many times before they got to the editor. One of the qualities of good writing is the show of respect for the readers. Thanks again for all the effort.

Thanks for the kind post.

Good luck with your P210. :)

LawScholar
09-01-2011, 16:28
Okay bac. Here is the list of things I would do, off the top of my head, for that Beretta Steel I

1.) Cut off any two fingers or toes (thumbs, trigger finger, big toes exempt).
2.) Build an heirloom-quality bookshelf while being stung by bees constantly.
3.) Attack, and, if possible, maim a person of your chosing.
4.) Flip off a box of kittens.
5.) Spray paint your name on any Federal building (no White House, I don't wanna die and I'm pretty sure Obama doesn't mind HIS people having firearms.)

That is a sickeningly good-looking firearm. austin_tx posted a picture of one on TFL a few months back and I had daydreams for weeks.

Glockdude1
09-01-2011, 16:45
Okay bac. Here is the list of things I would do, off the top of my head, for that Beretta Steel I

1.) Cut off any two fingers or toes (thumbs, trigger finger, big toes exempt).
2.) Build an heirloom-quality bookshelf while being stung by bees constantly.
3.) Attack, and, if possible, maim a person of your chosing.
4.) Flip off a box of kittens.
5.) Spray paint your name on any Federal building (no White House, I don't wanna die and I'm pretty sure Obama doesn't mind HIS people having firearms.)

That is a sickeningly good-looking firearm. austin_tx posted a picture of one on TFL a few months back and I had daydreams for weeks.

How about.....

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/pelosi_1.jpg

:outtahere:

LawScholar
09-01-2011, 17:44
You go too far, sir.

bac1023
09-05-2011, 07:57
Okay bac. Here is the list of things I would do, off the top of my head, for that Beretta Steel I

1.) Cut off any two fingers or toes (thumbs, trigger finger, big toes exempt).
2.) Build an heirloom-quality bookshelf while being stung by bees constantly.
3.) Attack, and, if possible, maim a person of your chosing.
4.) Flip off a box of kittens.
5.) Spray paint your name on any Federal building (no White House, I don't wanna die and I'm pretty sure Obama doesn't mind HIS people having firearms.)

That is a sickeningly good-looking firearm. austin_tx posted a picture of one on TFL a few months back and I had daydreams for weeks.

:rofl:

Good posting and thanks for the compliment on the Steel I.

Here are some better pics.


http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr97/briancut1023/107.jpg

http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr97/briancut1023/110.jpg

kashdaddy
09-06-2011, 01:32
X-5 baby!

LawScholar
09-06-2011, 01:35
:rofl:

Good posting and thanks for the compliment on the Steel I.

Here are some better pics.


http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr97/briancut1023/107.jpg

http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr97/briancut1023/110.jpg

Gorgeous. How aggressive is the front strap texture?

bac1023
09-11-2011, 20:19
Gorgeous. How aggressive is the front strap texture?

Not bad at all, but it does give a nice grip.

bac1023
09-11-2011, 20:20
X-5 baby!

:cool:

Viper 1
10-09-2011, 15:24
:cool:


I'm new to target shooting but would you include the FNH five seven in this group?

mgs
10-27-2011, 09:47
Colt Gold Cup Series 70, Mike.

bac1023
12-14-2011, 06:16
I'm new to target shooting but would you include the FNH five seven in this group?

I have that one too. Its a nice pistol, but I wouldn't include it in this group.

bac1023
12-14-2011, 06:17
Colt Gold Cup Series 70, Mike.

I've got a pre series 70 GC and a newer GC Trophy.

Both are outstanding, but this test wasn't about 1911s.

TexasVine
09-04-2012, 20:47
bac:
Thank you for such an informative post. I have always looked forward to your post when I sign on to the forum since I joined GT. I have steered many folks on other forums to your 1911 Buyer's Guide when I read about somebody in need of 1911 information.
Mike

bac1023
09-04-2012, 22:26
bac:
Thank you for such an informative post. I have always looked forward to your post when I sign on to the forum since I joined GT. I have steered many folks on other forums to your 1911 Buyer's Guide when I read about somebody in need of 1911 information.
Mike

Thanks Mike, much appreciated.

As for the buyer's guide, the more that read it the better. That took me months to write, on and off, of course.

"Cold Dead Hands" !
12-02-2012, 15:37
You gave a detailed spec. You rated them on your subjective criteria, but you didn't hit on the one item I want to know. How do they shoot? Groups man, post your groups, or better yet hold a party and have 6-10 people shoot and post all the groups.

He did rate accuracy first.

"Cold Dead Hands" !
12-02-2012, 15:54
Great thread BAC !

One experts opinion on all of those fine guns, eliminates a lot of variables from too many opinions.
Should be a big help for those wanting one from that list.
CZ's look like a great value.

I'd like to see you rate all the 1911's, and also compare them to the best in this list.

Best do it soon before the newly re-elected communist Obama administration is talking about banning semi auto guns, and he now knows what you got !

"Cold Dead Hands" !
12-02-2012, 18:10
Shoot, I can do that. Sorry I don't have the pictures though, but here goes...

My Hi-Point is a Jennings clone and a darn good one if you ask me. I like the way it doesn't fit in my hand. But when I compare it to my S&W Sigma I can tell that the Sigma is cheap and built to stay that way. I can't hit the broad side of a barn with it because the 12 lbs. trigger pull requires me to squeeze so hard it ends up aimed at the sky or the guy next to me at the range.:wow: He rated it a 4, at least that is how many knuckles I saw coming at me right before I passed out.

So...do I get a sticky also?
Were not talking Custom Guns in this thread.
.....customized by a gang banger.

25pd
12-06-2012, 20:29
Great Post ....but where do the Glocks. fall into the Mix ?????:crying:

bac1023
12-07-2012, 01:13
Great Post ....but where do the Glocks. fall into the Mix ?????:crying:

Thanks.

I guess that would depend on your preference. I personally don't shoot Glocks particularly well.

Rinspeed
12-07-2012, 08:51
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/Rinspeed/X5-4.jpg

bac1023
12-07-2012, 08:59
Very nice, Jeff :cool:

I'm glad you like your X-Five. :)

Rinspeed
12-07-2012, 09:21
It's no surprise that you have the X-5 rated so high compared to all those other great pistols. It's truely a magnificent piece. :faint:

bac1023
12-07-2012, 12:42
It's no surprise that you have the X-5 rated so high compared to all those other great pistols. It's truely a magnificent piece. :faint:

It certainly is. :cool:

aircarver
02-24-2013, 12:30
The only one of the collection that I own is the P88, and I agree with the rating you gave it.

One gun that I feel would have been worthy of inclusion as a 'range gun' ('cuz it's too big for carry...:supergrin:
is the CZ-97. It's my favorite (range) .45. I shoot it better than my P-220 Sig or my 1911 Colt.

.

bac1023
02-24-2013, 18:51
The only one of the collection that I own is the P88, and I agree with the rating you gave it.

One gun that I feel would have been worthy of inclusion as a 'range gun' ('cuz it's too big for carry...:supergrin:
is the CZ-97. It's my favorite (range) .45. I shoot it better than my P-220 Sig or my 1911 Colt.

.

I'm actually not even sure I owned my CZ-97 when I posted this. I'll have to check.

That said, it is certainly a very well built and accurate pistol. It it were a bit smaller and lighter, it would have been very popular.

Pier23
04-29-2013, 10:29
Sadly, I have none of these....

While a thread like this takes a great deal of time and energy, I thought I'd share my opinions on some higher end range/target pistols, in case somebody is in the market for one. The PMs I gotten over time suggest that there are quite a few people here who appreciate guns like the models in this thread.

Some of these are strictly target/competition pistols, but some others are/were not actually intended for that purpose. However, I feel their overall quality and capabilities make them superb range guns.

While most of these are no longer produced, most are also readily available on the used market. A few of these are still built today, in an age where heavy metal, high quality pistols are fewer and farther between.

I'll also state the obvious and say the following is merely one man's opinion, not fact. I'm going to state some useful facts, such as composition, weight, and action type, but this body of work is based solely on my experience and preferences. Its also limited to my collection, so if your favorite pistol isn't listed, I either don't own it or don't feel it performs in the same class as the others in my hands. Fair enough?

The last thing to mention before starting, is that there are absolutely no 1911s in this test. Many of you know I'm an avid 1911 collector and I've said many times that its my favorite pistol. However, I post plenty about them already. For the sake of this work, they are watching from the sidelines.

The players here are as follows, and I'm going to group them a couple different ways:

First by caliber.


9mm:

Sig X-Five L1
Sig P210-6
Pardini GT-9
S&W PC952
Sphinx Competitor
HK P7M8
Benelli B76
MAB PA-15
Walther P88
Browning HP Competition


40S&W:

HK P7M10
CZ 75 Champion
Beretta 96 Steel I


45ACP:

HK Mark 23
S&W PC945


38 Special:

S&W 52


38 Super:

Tanfoglio Limited



Now by intended purpose.


Race/Competition/Target:

Sig Sauer X-Five L1
Pardini GT-9
Sphinx Competitor
Browning HP Competition
Tanfoglio Limited
S&W 52
CZ 75 Champion


Military/Service:

HK P7M8
Benelli B76
MAB PA-15
Walther P88
HK P7M10
HK Mark 23


Somewhere between:

Sig P210-6
S&W PC952
Beretta 96 Steel I
S&W PC945


Since I'm rating these as range guns, obviously some have a distinct advantage, but I'll get started. All ratings use a 1 to 10 scale, with 10 being the best.

I'll start with 9mms, which is my favorite range caliber.

bac1023
04-29-2013, 11:32
Sadly, I have none of these....

You have to start somewhere. ;)

lifesizepotato
06-14-2013, 19:00
Might I humbly suggest, on behalf of your fans, that you update the OP with an assortment of the guns you've gotten in the meantime? I'd love to hear how the Korth semi-auto and Delta Top Gun and a few others compare, for example. I'm sure there are a dozen other new additions to your family that could use a brief write-up. :)

bac1023
06-14-2013, 20:00
Might I humbly suggest, on behalf of your fans, that you update the OP with an assortment of the guns you've gotten in the meantime? I'd love to hear how the Korth semi-auto and Delta Top Gun and a few others compare, for example. I'm sure there are a dozen other new additions to your family that could use a brief write-up. :)I hear you, my friend.

This thread has been in need of an update for a long time. Its over three years old now. I only had the one Sig P210 back then, let alone everything else.

Rinspeed
06-14-2013, 22:02
This thread has been in need of an update for a long time. Its over three years old now. I only had the one Sig P210 back then, let alone everything else.




What do say Brian when I get down that way maybe I could borrow a few. :wavey: I promise I will take real good care of them. :supergrin:

bac1023
06-15-2013, 16:36
What do say Brian when I get down that way maybe I could borrow a few. :wavey: I promise I will take real good care of them. :supergrin:

Hopefully, we can do some shooting at soon time soon, Jeff. :)

GunBugBit
07-10-2013, 15:29
Very cool variety of guns presented on this thread.

bac1023
07-10-2013, 16:09
Great thread BAC !

One experts opinion on all of those fine guns, eliminates a lot of variables from too many opinions.
Should be a big help for those wanting one from that list.
CZ's look like a great value.

I'd like to see you rate all the 1911's, and also compare them to the best in this list.

Best do it soon before the newly re-elected communist Obama administration is talking about banning semi auto guns, and he now knows what you got !


Sorry for the late reply.

I do compare 1911s in the guide in my signature, though I know its not exactly the same.

bac1023
07-10-2013, 16:10
Very cool variety of guns presented on this thread.

Thank you sir :cool:

Two Guns
01-12-2014, 09:10
Great thread Bac. Thanks for doing it.

bac1023
01-12-2014, 20:13
Great thread Bac. Thanks for doing it.

Glad you like it, thanks :wavey:

lifesizepotato
01-14-2014, 11:47
I'm reserving my "thanks, bac!" post for when he finally stops being a bum and adds all his new range guns to the OP. We all know you've already taken the photos!

:poke:


:tongueout:

bac1023
01-16-2014, 07:15
I'm reserving my "thanks, bac!" post for when he finally stops being a bum and adds all his new range guns to the OP. We all know you've already taken the photos!

:poke:


:tongueout:

:rofl:

Yeah, its been several years since I updated this thread...

:embarassed:

barth
04-03-2014, 14:30
My favorite range and carry gun is this -
http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r678/barthunderwood/Mobile%20Uploads/Photo1097_zps3ab081c1.jpg

bac1023
04-03-2014, 19:05
Very nice Barth

"Cold Dead Hands" !
04-24-2014, 09:29
It certainly is. :cool:


1911 !
http://mrs-yisearch.mrs.yimg.com/api/res/1.2/_EoChhJ1XSuPNnwk_60.WQ--/YXBwaWQ9eWlzZWFyY2g7Zmk9Zml0O2dlPTAwNjYwMDtncz0wMEEzMDA7aD00MDA7dz01MzM-/http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Glock-1911.jpg.cf.jpg

fnfalman
04-26-2014, 12:03
Great. Now we have an M1911 that melts.
1911 !
http://mrs-yisearch.mrs.yimg.com/api/res/1.2/_EoChhJ1XSuPNnwk_60.WQ--/YXBwaWQ9eWlzZWFyY2g7Zmk9Zml0O2dlPTAwNjYwMDtncz0wMEEzMDA7aD00MDA7dz01MzM-/http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Glock-1911.jpg.cf.jpg





Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

KIMBERSM
05-05-2014, 06:02
if you had the opportunity to buy new at the same price which one would you choose?

KIMBERSM
05-05-2014, 06:05
also would you consider hk usp expert 9 mm a range gun compared to the ones bac1023 mentioned ?

bac1023
05-05-2014, 15:27
if you had the opportunity to buy new at the same price which one would you choose?

Tough choice.

I prefer the style and looks of the P210 Legend Target, but I probably shoot the X-Five a little better. I guess I'd go with an X-Five L1.


http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr97/briancut1023/001_zps93ea3b45.jpg (http://s473.photobucket.com/user/briancut1023/media/001_zps93ea3b45.jpg.html)






However, I'd go with a Swiss P210-6 Heavy Frame over either of them. :cool:


http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr97/briancut1023/040-4.jpg (http://s473.photobucket.com/user/briancut1023/media/040-4.jpg.html)

bac1023
05-05-2014, 15:28
also would you consider hk usp expert 9 mm a range gun compared to the ones bac1023 mentioned ?

Personally? No, I wouldn't.

I would put the HK P9S Sport in the same light. I didn't own that in time for this thread. I guess I'll have to update it at some point. :sigh:

KIMBERSM
05-05-2014, 15:56
Personally? No, I wouldn't.

I would put the HK P9S Sport in the same light. I didn't own that in time for this thread. I guess I'll have to update it at some point. :sigh:

thank you for your expert opinion [ I did buy a les baer after reading the 1991 guide and love it]
i am trying to figure out what will be good range gun in 9mm [i already have a glock34 and hk p30l]and read good reviews of the usp expert .Since I shoot only in a range up to 25 yards how "inferior" is the expert versus the x5 or p210especially that the expert cost is half of the other two.

bac1023
05-05-2014, 16:51
thank you for your expert opinion [ I did buy a les baer after reading the 1991 guide and love it]
i am trying to figure out what will be good range gun in 9mm [i already have a glock34 and hk p30l]and read good reviews of the usp expert .Since I shoot only in a range up to 25 yards how "inferior" is the expert versus the x5 or p210especially that the expert cost is half of the other two.

I'd say average shooter (like me) will notice a difference at 25 yards, but the Expert is still a great pistol.

Having said that, I would prefer something with a steel frame for a range 9mm. Besides, you already have two polymer 9mms. You also font need to spend $2000+ on a steel 9mm to get a good one.

Congrats on the Baer. I'm glad you found the guide helpful in making your decision. :)

KIMBERSM
05-05-2014, 17:41
thanks bac

bac1023
05-05-2014, 17:46
No problem

Good luck with your purchase. :cool:

lifesizepotato
10-31-2014, 09:55
As I predicted, my own lengthy comparison effort-thread got less interest than a typical bac "Picked up a..." post. So, rather than let all that work fall into the forgotten netherpages of the GlockTalk, I'll post my reviews, in the style of bac's OP, here.

9mm PARA

http://i.imgur.com/qO5Mmdh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AtxaCdM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SDLO7RH.jpg

Walther P88 Competition/Champion
Frame: Aluminum
Slide: Steel
Unloaded Weight: 28.7oz/31.4oz
Price: $2000-2500
Action: SAO
Accuracy: 8
Trigger: 10
Ergonomics: 7
Sights: 8-9
Finish: 9
Build Quality: 9
Ease of Locating: 3

SA Break: 3.5lbs

The Competition and Champion are premium SAO versions of the Walther P88 Compact. The Champion features a 6” barrel, while the Competition has the standard P88 Compact’s 4” length. (A 5” was also available.)

These are probably the finest pistols Walther has ever produced, and that includes the beautiful pre-war PPKs and PPs. The trigger is one of the best available on a semi-auto, with an insanely sharp break, reasonably light weight, no overtravel, and short reset. The sights lose a couple points for not being adjustable on the Competition model, which has standard 3-dot fixed units. Ergonomics take a hit simply because of the stiff slide-mounted safety, a location which has never been and will never be ideal. The grips and other controls are good, however. Manufactured to the high standards of Walther in Ulm, my only knock on the build is the aluminum frame – I’d love to see this gun with a polished heavy steel frame. These weren’t imported in great numbers, but they do pop up once a year or so.


http://i.imgur.com/bqWkClm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Hgr3skb.jpg

Walther P5 Lang (Long)
Frame: Aluminum
Slide: Steel
Unloaded Weight: 29.9oz
Price: Hard to estimate. Regular P5s: $700-900
Action: DA/SA
Accuracy: 9
Trigger: 7
Ergonomics: 7
Sights: 7
Finish: 8
Build Quality: 8
Ease of Locating: P5 Lang: 1; Normal P5: 6

SA Break: 5.25lbs

The P5 is a service pistol without a doubt, but it’s a very good one. Mine in particular is the sporting model, the P5 Lang (German for “long;” also, pronounced like “long”), with an extended barrel, so I feel it fits on this list more than the standard P5 I had before it. While most of the gun is identical to the normal P5, the included 25m target is quite impressive. Accuracy at the range in my hands bears this out, and it’s a fantastic shooter. The aluminum frame, as in the P88 Competition/Champion, leaves me desiring a bit more weight to dampen the recoil, but otherwise, the experience is great. The trigger is good for a DA/SA trigger, with a clean break and good reset. Build quality is typical Ulm Walther and very good compared to most guns on the market, but isn’t at the top. Only about 80-100 of the Langs were made, so finding them can politely be described as “yeah, right.” While you probably won’t find a P5 Lang, I do recommend regular commercial P5s as solid 9mms from Walther’s history.

lifesizepotato
10-31-2014, 09:57
http://i.imgur.com/oGOmiB2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yILPX46.jpg

Vektor SP1 Target
Frame: Aluminum
Slide: Steel
Unloaded Weight: 41.7oz
Price: Hard to estimate. Regular SP1s: $900-1300
Action: SAO
Accuracy: 8
Trigger: 7
Ergonomics: 9
Sights: 9
Finish: 8
Build Quality: 8
Ease of Locating: 2

SA Break: 3.75lbs

The Vektor SP1 is a well-made pistol from South Africa based on the original Beretta 92. The upgraded Target models feature a straight SAO trigger, barrel weight/bushing, extended mag release, and adjustable sights. The gun is very smooth to rack – we’re talking P210 or GT9 smooth. (This is due in part to the fact that the barrel doesn’t tilt, per the Beretta design.) The ergonomics are mostly Beretta 92, which is a good thing, although the grip is a smidge narrower. The trigger’s break could be a little cleaner for an SAO gun, but it’s still quite good. I’m glad the safety is frame-mounted, like the OG 92s. Overall, a very shootable and good 9mm handgun that holds its own with these heavyweights. The normal SP1 models surface for sale infrequently, but they’re not unheard of. The SAO target versions don’t come up often at all.


http://i.imgur.com/SCDfxiG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ENQmkxl.jpg

MAB PAP F1
Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded Weight: 44.3oz
Price: $2500+?
Action: SAO
Accuracy: 10
Trigger: 8
Ergonomics: 7
Sights: 9
Finish: 8
Build Quality: 9
Ease of Locating: 1

SA Break: 5.5lbs

The PAP F1 is an accurized version of the more common MAB PA-15. These were used mostly by French military and police competitive shooting teams. Accuracy is said to rival the legendary P210 at distance. The trigger makes it a bit challenging to extract that at times, showing its service roots by being a touch on the heavy side, but it’s not insurmountable and has a good break and reset. When I first got it, there was a lot of squishy overtravel too, but an adjustment on the screw in the middle of the trigger fixed that. The ergonomics are a bit stodgy, with the controls being somewhat difficult to manipulate compared to more modern offerings. The finish and build quality are excellent, and I love the weight. Despite the weight and rotating barrel, however, recoil is not as dainty as you might expect. It gets a solid 1 on the “Ease of Locating” scale, but the regular PA-15 can be found with a few weeks of patience without trouble and would rate a 5.

lifesizepotato
10-31-2014, 09:57
http://i.imgur.com/KmNRKYN.jpg

HK P9S Sport Group III
Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded Weight: 40.3oz with barrel weight and wood grips
Price: $3500-4000
Action: SAO
Accuracy: 9
Trigger: 9
Ergonomics: 5
Sights: 8
Finish: 7
Build Quality: 6
Ease of Locating: 5

SA Break: 3.25lbs (adjustable)

The P9S Sport Group III is the premium model of the roller-delayed P9S. It featured two slides/barrel lengths, an SAO trigger, and ergonomic wood grips in a nice package. The fixed barrel design makes it one of the most accurate HK pistols ever made. The trigger has a fabulously crisp break, but the reset is kind of long. This isn’t a huge deal, though, because the takeup is effortlessly light. Controls are strange and somewhat hard to manage, and definitely involve a learning curve. The clunky heel magazine release loses it points there, too. Finish and build quality are both good, although it would be nice if it were a forged frame and slide. If “appearance” were a category in these ratings, though, the P9S would not fare well. It’s just kind of awkward and weird looking. An unfortunate design feature is the use of plastic recoil buffers that degrade over time and use. They’re not expensive to replace (yet), but it is something that needs to be checked once a year or so. The guns aren’t too terribly hard to locate with a bit of patience, at least in comparison to some others in this thread. Regular non-SAO P9S combat guns are easy to find and are also excellent guns, I’ve read.


http://i.imgur.com/ncVcBQj.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/eVroCgM.jpg

HK USP Match
*POTATO’S PICK*
Frame: Polymer
Slide: Steel
Unloaded Weight: 41.2oz
Price: $4000+
Action: DA/SA
Accuracy: 8
Trigger: 8
Ergonomics: 8
Sights: 8
Finish: 8
Build Quality: 8
Ease of Locating: 9mm – 2; 45acp: 6

SA Break: 3.5lbs

Bac was reluctant to include polymer guns in his original thread, but I think high-end USPs like the Match and Tactical (or Expert or Elite if I had them) easily fit in with this group of fine, accurate range machines. The USP Match is a USP with the HK’s match trigger and a unique barrel weight with a long barrel with O-ring. I don’t usually have much interest in polymer pistols, but there’s something about HK’s USP line that really appeals to me. The match trigger is probably the best I’ve felt in a polymer gun, with an excellent SA break. The DA is heavyish but smooth and not too long, although I never shoot in DA mode. I love the additional heft granted by the barrel weight – you’re looking at steel-frame pistol weight on a polymer gun. The included 25m test target proves this USP is more than capable of competing with other guns in this thread. Ergonomics are mostly exceptional, with very easy to manipulate controls and the paddle mag release I love, but many complain about the blocky grip so I docked it a couple points. Finish and build quality are superb, especially for a plastic gun. I see 45acp Match guns for sale every once in a while, but the 9mm guns are much harder to come by. Apropos of nothing, I think USPs are the best looking polymer handguns out there, besides maybe Steyr MxA1s.

lifesizepotato
10-31-2014, 09:58
http://i.imgur.com/VJxJ5h8.jpg

Benelli B76 Sport
Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded Weight: 40.8oz
Price: $1500+
Action: DA/SA
Accuracy: 8
Trigger: 8
Ergonomics: 6
Sights: 8
Finish: 9
Build Quality: 9
Ease of Locating: 2

SA Break: 3.25lbs

This is the DA/SA target version of the B76, which while rare, is the most common Benelli centerfire pistol of the B-series. The Sport featured an improved trigger pull, adjustable sights, polished slide, target grips, and extended barrel with barrel weight. All together, these make a very good service pistol into a very good range and sport pistol. The trigger is quite good for a DA/SA, which usually lag far behind their SAO counterparts. There is a bit more ovetravel than on the MP3S models, however. The fixed barrel allows for excellent accuracy. Ergonomics aren’t the best, as the safety is weird and the mags are a pain to load. The grips feel good, but they exacerbate the slide’s tendency to bite the hand. Despite that quibble, performance at the range is excellent. You’ll see regular B76s on Gunbroker maybe 3-4 times a year. Sports? Almost never. Be aware that field stripping is a royal pain on all of the B-series models.

http://i.imgur.com/mUs5HJq.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FBQXEvD.jpg

Benelli MP3S
Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded Weight: 41.6oz
Price: $2000?+
Action: SAO
Accuracy: 9
Trigger: 9
Ergonomics: 6
Sights: 8
Finish: 9
Build Quality: 9
Ease of Locating: 1

SA Break: 3lbs

Most of the above about the B76 Sport applies to the single action-only MP3S. A subtle difference is that the MP3S’s chamber is blued on top. The trigger is better, although surprisingly not by a lot. A very crisp break, no overtravel, and short reset are characteristic. This is literally the first and only MP3S in 9mm that I can confirm exists, so Ease of Locating is decidedly a 1. Even barely credible “I have an MP3S in 9mm” forums posts don’t exist online outside of this thread. This gun was only very recently acquired and was a key part of the impetus for undertaking the thread.

lifesizepotato
10-31-2014, 09:59
http://i.imgur.com/NjbkMXa.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5BcutDP.jpg

JSL Spitfire MK II
Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded Weight: 39.3oz
Price: $1500+?
Action: DA/SA
Accuracy: 7
Trigger: 5
Ergonomics: 7
Sights: 6
Finish: 8
Build Quality: 8
Ease of Locating: 1

SA Break: 5.25lbs

JSL was a company that existed in Britain for a few short years in the 90s. They specialized in well-made CZ75 clones. This Spitfire has a compensator which, along with the nice heavy weight, makes recoil almost nonexistent. The trigger is not that great, unfortunately, with a fair amount of takeup and a creepy break. Ergonomics are good, as are most CZ clones, although the slide release is a bit hard to reach thanks to the grip’s girth. Accuracy is good, though not quite up to par with some of the lofty competition in this thread. The gun is essentially handmade, so build quality and finish are excellent. Not quite a Sphinx, but still excellent. They were imported in very small numbers by a company in Florida, so finding them is a real chore.


http://i.imgur.com/LnqsUZd.jpg

Sphinx AT2000S
*POTATO’S PICK*
Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded Weight: 39oz
Price: $2000
Action: DA/SA
Accuracy: 8
Trigger: 8
Ergonomics: 9
Sights: 9
Finish: 10
Build Quality: 10
Ease of Locating: 4

SA Break: 4.5lbs

(Note: Bac did the Competitor version of this gun, but I’m not sure how different it is from this standard edition.) Sphinx is a Swiss manufacturer who builds CZ/Tanfoglio-based handguns to the standards you’d expect of a Swiss metal fabricator. Build quality and fit/finish are in the upper echelon of handguns. Though DA/SA, the trigger is very smooth and has a great SA pull. DA is a bit heavier than I’d like, perhaps. Sights are fixed but very functional. Ergonomics and controls are the fantastic CZ design most know and love. Performance at the range is stellar, and the gun is easy to shoot well. There’s also just an ineffable “something” to the Sphinx that makes it an obviously special gun. As they’d say in Hollywood, it’s got it. An AT2000-series Sphinx is hard to find, but given some patience and searching, you’ll find one. Incidentally, the SDP is not related to the AT2000S and is probably a couple rungs below it in quality. Once I get one, I’ll post back here.

lifesizepotato
10-31-2014, 10:00
http://i.imgur.com/hP3x2IM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QElByHw.jpg

Sig X6E Supermatch
*POTATO’S PICK*
Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded Weight: 47oz
Price: $2500+
Action: SAO
Accuracy: 10
Trigger: 9
Ergonomics: 10
Sights: 9
Finish: 9
Build Quality: 10
Ease of Locating: 7

SA Break: 3lbs (adjustable)

Bac covered the older X5, but these new X-Line Sigs are different beasts, and this is the longer barreled X6 anyway. Based on the famous P226, the X6 is the competition model featuring a longer barrel, all-steel construction, SAO trigger, adjustable sights, and a host of other features geared towards competitive and bullseye shooting. It is given extra attention at the Sig Mastershop, currently in Germany but soon to be located state-side. As such, it is the pinnacle of Sig’s current product line in my opinion, on par or perhaps exceeding the P210 Legend in most respects. Accuracy is phenomenal, making nearly anyone look like a crack shot. The trigger is adjustable, and I’ve gotten mine to be exceptional. However, the break is just barely fudgier than the Walther P88 Competition/Champion and the Pardini GT9, so it’s not quite best-in-class. The reset in particular is a bit soft and weak for me. The ergonomics are good, as the gun allows a very high hold, and the controls are all oversized and easy to operate. Overall, an outstanding 9mm target gun that excels at almost everything except perhaps concealed carry duty. These are new guns so availability shouldn’t be too bad in the coming months. By the way, I think these are so far beyond the standard P226 that it’s hard to believe they’re related.


http://i.imgur.com/Sey398D.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/OL1vEas.jpg

Steyr GB
Frame: Aluminum
Slide: Steel
Unloaded Weight: 34.5oz
Price: $700-900
Action: DA/SA
Accuracy: 8
Trigger: 6
Ergonomics: 6
Sights: 6
Finish: 7
Build Quality: 7
Ease of Locating: 8

SA Break: 4.75lbs

The Steyr GB is technically a service pistol, but it’s very well made, somewhat exotic, and pretty accurate, so I feel it belongs in this thread. Its unique gas delay system utilizes a fixed barrel, which as we know usually aids in accuracy. The controls and ergonomics are a bit wonky, though, in my opinion. The safety is slide-mounted and strange, and the hammer spur is hard to thumb reliably. (Some versions have a differently shaped spur, though.) Recoil is soft thanks to the gas system, and it’s quite a fun shooter. Build quality is good, though many look askance at the finish on the frame. It resembles a Rhino liner on a truck bed. Overall, a good gun and not too expensive, compared to others in the thread. The gas system does need to be cleaned periodically to ensure proper function. You rarely have to wait more than about a month to see one on Gunbroker for a decent price.

lifesizepotato
10-31-2014, 10:01
http://i.imgur.com/QkZ4V2y.jpg

Sig P210-1
Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded Weight: 36oz
Price: $1700+
Action: SAO
Accuracy: 10
Trigger: 7
Ergonomics: 4
Sights: 5
Finish: 10
Build Quality: 11
Ease of Locating: 8

SA Break: 4lbs

That’s right, the build quality is 11. It’s the main thing you take away from handling an early high-polished P210-1. It’s nearly a work of art. Bac’s previous thread discussed the -6, so I decided to cover the old -1 here. While it’s a beautiful gun surpassed by virtually no other in terms of accuracy and build, it is showing its age in a few areas. Controls are badly placed and hard to use. Hammer bite is an issue for most people. The trigger is good for a duty pistol, but has been eclipsed by many target guns. The fixed sights are small and regulated at 50m. Nevertheless, its status as a must-have for enthusiasts of high-end handguns means it needs to be in this thread. Enough of these were made that finding one isn’t too involved. Good specialty shops like Simpson LTD or Collector’s Firearms usually will have some. For what it’s worth, later model P210s serve better as pure range guns these days.


http://i.imgur.com/HBkQNXj.jpg

Pardini GT9
*POTATO’S PICK*
Frame: Aluminum
Slide: Steel
Unloaded Weight: 39oz
Price: $2300+
Action: SAO
Accuracy: 10
Trigger: 10
Ergonomics: 10
Sights: 9
Finish: 8
Build Quality: 8
Ease of Locating: 10

SA Break: 3lbs (adjustable)

Bac did the GT9 in his thread, but I don’t think he gave it the credit it’s due. It’s my favorite range pistol, obviously enough from the scores above. The trigger is adjustable and superlative. The ergonomics are nearly unequaled – the grip angle is ideal for me, and the controls are large and easy to use. The slide racks like it’s on wet ice. It is so easy to shoot well at the range that it seems supernatural. The only complaints I can think of are with the finish and build quality: only that the frame is aluminum, not steel, and the slide is kind of an ugly finish, a simple utilitarian black. If there frame were steel, and the slide finished in a high-polish blue, both finish and build would be 10s. The Pardini is hard to beat, even in this group of stellar contenders. The closest competitor is probably the X6. Used, these are tough to find, but new, they are ready to order from Pardini USA.

lifesizepotato
10-31-2014, 10:02
45ACP

http://i.imgur.com/Cw1w8zY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ciz2pj5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/125OcWw.jpg

Delta Top Gun
*POTATO’S PICK*
Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded Weight: 42oz
Price: $3000+
Action: SAO
Accuracy: 10
Trigger: 6
Ergonomics: 8
Sights: 9
Finish: 10
Build Quality: 10
Ease of Locating: 1

SA Break: 4lbs

The Delta Top Gun is one of my most prized handguns. Not only is it extremely rare, one of maybe 50 ever made, but it is also an adept performer, nice to look at, and beautifully crafted. I especially like the unique trigger guard shape – it makes the gun all the more exotic. I was shocked at the accuracy the first time I took it out, where I shot cloverleaves at 15yds offhand without even trying hard. The trigger isn’t the best, since despite being adjustable and SAO it serves to move a firing pin safety, too, which gives it a bit of disappointing mush. It’s no hindrance to shootability, somehow. The ergonomics are mostly good, although the ambidextrous mag release projects in an unusual way that sort of rubs my hands. Not enough to be a bother, though. Given the extremely small number produced, finding one of these for sale is unlikely without a lot of waiting and ardent digging. Note that some models had aluminum frames, but I think the polished steel really suits the gun’s character more.


http://i.imgur.com/NnUw77m.jpg

USP Tactical
*POTATO’S PICK*
Frame: Polymer
Slide: Steel
Unloaded Weight: 35.8oz
Price: $900-1200
Action: DA/SA
Accuracy: 8
Trigger: 8
Ergonomics: 8
Sights: 8
Finish: 8
Build Quality: 8
Ease of Locating: 10

SA Break: 4.5lbs

8s across the board mean this gun is a strong competitor in this field, despite never quite being perfect at any one thing. I shoot it very accurately, thanks in part to the excellent match trigger discussed in the USP match section. Ergonomics work great for me, though some complain about the thickness and size of the grip. Finish and build quality are solid 8s, meaning they are typical HK excellence. These are easy to find, with a handful on Gunbroker at any one time. As a side note, I sincerely believe the USP/MK23 platform guns are the most reliable handguns in the world, and if I had to actually hit the road during the zombie apocalypse with a single pistol, it would probably be this USP Tactical.

I especially enjoy shooting it with the pictured AAC TiRANT 45 and Viridian X5L laser light, which brings the weight up to nearly 55oz. It's like shooting marshmallows out of a gun made of pillows.

I kind of wanted to include the related Mark 23 in here, but bac already covered it well in his thread. However, in my own review, I’d mention that I think the trigger is extremely good, just heavy. Reset is phenomenal and the break is nearly perfect, especially so in a polymer combat gun.

lifesizepotato
10-31-2014, 10:03
http://i.imgur.com/3Ak9DRf.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/hvZqeWZ.jpg

ASAI OnePro 45
Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded Weight: 40.5oz
Price: $600-900
Action: DA/SA
Accuracy: 7
Trigger: 6
Ergonomics: 7
Sights: 8
Finish: 7
Build Quality: 7
Ease of Locating: 5

SA Break: 2.5lbs (!)

The ASAI OnePro 45 is a Swiss-made CZ75 clone chambered in 45acp. They were imported mostly by Magnum Research for a while in the early 2000s, to little fanfare or success. The guns are solidly made, but not on the level of its more famous Swiss competitor, the Sphinx 2000. The trigger in both DA and SA are shockingly light (you’d have to try one to believe it), although the SA loses points for its foggy break. There’s also a lot of overtravel. Many praise its trigger simply for its lightness, and it does contribute to its superb accuracy in my hands, but I feel the other aspects of the trigger need improvement. All that said, it is a lot of fun to shoot. The heavy weight is certainly a plus for me. These don’t come up on Gunbroker very frequently, but I’d say 2-3 times a year sounds right.

lifesizepotato
10-31-2014, 10:03
40S&W

http://i.imgur.com/Xm8REer.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/j1JRJf4.jpg

Wolf Ultramatic SV
Frame: Steel
Slide: N/A
Unloaded Weight: 46.5oz
Price: $700-1000
Action: SAO
Accuracy: 8
Trigger: 8
Ergonomics: 8
Sights: 8
Finish: 9
Build Quality: 10
Ease of Locating: 4

SA Break: 4lbs

You know I like a gun if I have it despite being in 40S&W. The Ultramatic, a short-lived pistol from Austria, is the only 40S&W in my collection and this thread. The weight is a very satisfying 47oz unloaded, due mostly to its unique construction that renders the gun nearly a solid block of steel, with a little space for a hollow barrel and magazine. The trigger is good, with a clean, light break. Accuracy is very good thanks to the fixed barrel. The field strip is a nightmare that absolutely requires the manual and some luck. Reliability on mine is not good, sadly – it rarely makes it through a mag without some malfunction. Despite this, build quality is clearly top-shelf, with excellent parts fitment and tight tolerances. I mostly recommend them as an intriguing oddity, but the pistol’s redeeming qualities and the fact that bac’s gun has been reliable mean I don’t feel bad including it on this list. You’ll see maybe 1-2 a year on Gunbroker.

lifesizepotato
10-31-2014, 10:04
32 S&W WADCUTTER

(Note: I have no idea where the photos I took of the MP3S in 32 went, but it looks identical to the 9mm. I'll find them eventually...)

Benelli MP3S 32S&W Wadcutter
Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded Weight: 41.7oz
Price: $1500+
Action: SAO
Accuracy: 9
Trigger: 9
Ergonomics: 6
Sights: 8
Finish: 9
Build Quality: 9
Ease of Locating: 3

SA Break: 3lbs

Most of the comments about the 9mm MP3S apply to the 32S&W variant. The recoil in this one is noticeably lighter, of course, which makes shooting it even more fun. Very hard to find – I’ve only seen a handful listed online in the last few years.

lifesizepotato
10-31-2014, 10:04
32 ACP

Neither of these are really top shelf range pistols like others in the thread, but they are unique, fire one of my favorite calibers, and I think most collectors interested in the guns in this thread would enjoy owning them.

http://i.imgur.com/7ZQ7Z5Z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/kmvX4xb.jpg

HK P7K3
Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded Weight: 32oz
Price: $2000+
Action: Striker/Squeeze Cocker
Accuracy: 7
Trigger: 6
Ergonomics: 8
Sights: 8
Finish: 8
Build Quality: 8
Ease of Locating: Ignoring caliber, 5

SA Break: 5lbs

Many are familiar with the P7 line, in particular the 9mm variants. Some are unaware, however, that the P7K3 existed, and that it came in 3 calibers – 380acp (most common), 32acp (least common), and 22lr. The guns are easily convertible between calibers, assuming you have the requisite barrels, slides and magazines. I only have the 32acp version, unfortunately, but would love to have the 22lr kit. Anyway, the K3 brings the positive features of the P7 series – good triggers, low bore axis, good accuracy, safe and innovative squeeze cocker – to a smaller package and a smaller caliber. Shooting the 32acp K3 is a lot of fun, and the gun is accurate enough to keep it enjoyable. The trigger is clearly service-grade, but the other handling characteristics of the gun compensate and keep shootability high. The 380 models come up for sale every few weeks, but the 32s are few and far between. Note that, similar to the P9S, these use a special buffer than should be checked every year or two.



http://i.imgur.com/5F9PVqF.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nZHrrBR.jpg

Benelli B77
Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded Weight: 35.5oz
Price: Hard to estimate. Probably $800+?
Action: DA/SA
Accuracy: 8
Trigger: 5
Ergonomics: 6
Sights: 8
Finish: 8
Build Quality: 8
Ease of Locating: 2

SA Break: 3.5lbs

Another Benelli?? What can I say, I like them. :cool: This one is the rare B77 variant in the 32acp chambering. As with the other Benellis, the grip angle is good, trigger isn’t bad for DA/SA (not as good as the B76S, though), fixed barrel accuracy is great, and slide bite is a possibility. Recoil is very pleasant, though, and it’s probably my best shooting 32acp, and certainly one you don’t see often. I don’t come across many of these at all, so Ease of Locating is a low 2.

bac1023
10-31-2014, 12:40
That's great, LSP...

Thanks for adding your efforts to the sticky.

lifesizepotato
10-31-2014, 14:44
That's great, LSP...

Thanks for adding your efforts to the sticky.

Seems like the best place for it, at least until you do your next comparison thread that gets 40,000 views and hundreds of responses in a couple weeks and is stickied immediately. :whistling:

Yuns
11-01-2014, 12:14
Since LSP has added information from his thread to bac’s original thread. I decided to revise my reviews to follow their format and include them in this thread as well. I have a few changes in that like LSP I included controls into ergos but like bac I kept grips separate. In addition, like LSP I don’t have an overall rating. Please note that I will not give anything a 10 in accuracy unless it can comes close to the sub-inch at 50 yards accuracy of my Pardini SP Bullseye.

9mm


http://i.imgur.com/USr0gsd.jpg
Sig Sauer P210 Legend Super Target
Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded Weight: 43.4 oz with empty magazine (nominal); 44.1 oz (measured)
Capacity: 8 rounds
Price: MSRP $3,993 (Street $2,999-$4,000+)
Action: SAO
Accuracy: 9.5
Trigger: 9
Ergonomics: 10
Grips: 10
Sights: 8
Finish: 9
Build Quality: 9
Ease of Locating: 4 in U.S. and decreasing because of the German Sig export ban (10 Europe)

This pistol is the highest-end modern P210 variant built in Germany by Sig Sauer. It is based on the last model Swiss-made SAN P210-5LS and the Nill/Ergosign design studies.


The fit and finish are incredible. The P210 is fit together more like a tight semi-custom 1911 than a mass produced pistol. Initially out of the box the slide takes a bit of force to break loose in order to rack and for the first box a couple times the slide did not go all the way back into battery due to the tight fit. After a few boxes however, the pistol is running perfectly. The finish is perfect but I did not give it a 10 because it is Nitron and less attractive than traditional bluing. I will note that the slide stop spring was missing in my brand new pistol but was replaced for free by Sig and the importer. I cannot blame Sig as it could have been lost at any point in the import chain.


Ergonomics are perfect. The original P210s are known for being very comfortable to hold but are notorious for their hammer bite and for their hard to use controls. The Super Target has an extended beavertail to eliminate the hammer bite problem. Furthermore, the safety axle is moved back and the safety is extended for extreme ease of use and now has a ball bearing under it to prevent the well-known safety scratch. The slide release is also extended and easy to use. The grips are the Karl Nill extended Bianchi-style grips that make for extremely comfortable use and also serve as a mag well.


The slide and extended heavy frame dustcover are impossibly thin heightwise compared to any other centerfire semiauto pistol I've handled. Like my other pistol with the slide inside the rails the Pardini, the slide doesn't give you much to hold on to so the rear serrations are critical.
The sights are good black on black adjustable target sights. The 6” barrel provides for excellent extended sight radius.


The trigger is outstanding and is also a bit disappointing. How are those two sentiments compatible? Well, it is an objectively outstanding trigger but I have some incredible triggers on many of my other pistols and I was hoping that the Super Target might be the best of all. Unfortunately it is great but not as good as the ones on the Pardini or the K38.


The trigger feels super light. It feels even lighter than the 2.6 lb trigger of my X5. However, it is heavier. It initially started out at 3.4 lbs but has now broken in and smoothed out to 2.9 lbs. There is a smooth short take up but the take up is not gritty but a bit squishy. With the slide off the pull weight is a super smooth and less than 2.75 lbs so the new firing pin safety in the slide of the German P210 adds some weight.


The break is crisp and initially the trigger travel after the wall was about 1.5 mm which included about 0.5 mm overtravel. I adjusted the internal overtravel stop and the overtravel is now gone. As measured with calipers, the full travel is now 3.35 mm. The take up to the wall is 2.5 mm and the trigger travel after the wall is a break of 0.85 mm. To reset, you have to let fully off the trigger so the reset length is 3.35 mm. This is a hair over a 1/8 inch reset so the reset length is fine. Although since it doesn't reset at the "wall" of the second stage, I tend to perceive it as longer than it actually is. The reset isn't nearly as short as the 2mm reset of the X5 or the 1mm of my H&K P9S Sport Group III .45.


Because of the squishy takeup and the very light break, the wall between the take up and the break is super easy to accidentally pull past. I mistakenly thought that it was a single stage rolling trigger the first few dry fires because I accidentally pulled right past the second stage. Once you get used to it you can stage right at the wall.


The break feels super light because of the very small difference in the force needed for take up and the force needed to break the shot. For example, if you have 2 pistols with 3.5 lbs triggers and one requires a 0.5 lb take up with a 3 lb additional force to break the shot, this will feel heavier than a pistol with a 2 lb take up with 1.5 lbs additional to break the shot.


Test target is a 5 shot 1.2 inch group at 25 meters. Please note that the modern Legends are shot by hand resting on a stand at 25m. The old Swiss P210 were shot for 5-10 shots at 50m but in a machine rest so the targets are not directly comparable.


This is one of the most accurate centerfire semiauto pistols that I have ever owned. The only centerfire semiauto pistols that I own that may match or exceed it for accuracy in my hands are my Pardini GT, P9S Sport Group III and my Sig Arms P210-5HF. It was even more accurate in my hands than my X5 and my USP Expert.


My first two magazines were all in the 8 ring without even worrying about sight picture much just alignment. It was an absolute laser beam. Consistently I got good groups while keeping a decent pace and just focusing on sight alignment. The trigger that wasn't so great dry firing was probably the easiest to manage actually shooting. At one point I put a 5 shots into a 0.3 inch center to center group at 15 yards. Unfortunately my next 5 on that target opened that up by a couple of inches.


Because of the weight and length, people expect the Super Target to have low recoil but frankly the recoil is generally the same as other full size pistols. The recoil mitigating properties of the length and weight are lessened by the thinness of the slide.

lifesizepotato
11-01-2014, 13:52
Great addition, Yuns! I was kind of hoping you'd add some of yours to this thread, too. :)

You're probably right to hold a higher standard for 10 in accuracy.

bac1023
11-01-2014, 17:08
Very nice, Yuns :)

I really enjoyed shooting that pistol last week. :cool:

Feel free to add some of your other reviews as well. There's no reason we can't have duplicates here. A couple different opinions on a certain pistol is fine.

Yuns
11-01-2014, 17:40
http://i.imgur.com/xAgrvoj.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0chOLbD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/OiQpdjj.jpg

Sig Arms P210-5HF
Oschatz Waffen modified with Nill beavertail, Nill grips, Oschatz barrel weight and tuned trigger.
Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Unloaded Weight: 39.9 oz with empty magazine
Capacity: 8 rounds
Price: Generally in the $3,000-$3,500 for a standard P210-5 but can go upwards of $4,000+ depending on a number of factors
Action: SAO
Accuracy: 9.5
Trigger: 9.5
Ergonomics: 6
Grips: 9
Sights: 6
Finish: 7.5
Build Quality: 10
Ease of Locating: 7 in U.S. for standard P210-5HF, 4 for Oschatz modified one.



This is a late production P210-5 Heavy Frame made by Sig Arms in Neuhausen Switzerland in about 1993 before they became SAN. The P210-5 was a sport/target model with the sport trigger, adjustable sights, and extended barrel. This was one of the earlier CNC milled models but likely has the cast hammer action housings with MIM internals. It was purchased by its German owner in Switzerland and personally imported to Germany. In Germany, it was modified by the tuning house Oschatz Waffen with a Karl Nill screw in beavertail to prevent hammer bite and Karl Nill grips. Oschatz also removed the standard extended barrel sight of the P210-5 and replaced it with their own barrel weight. Finally the trigger and action were tuned. I purchased it from its German owner and had it imported to the U.S


The finish is excellent but utilitarian. The frame is a dull matte whereas the slide is a sort of satin finish.


The fit is amazing. Unlike the P210 Legend Super Target which is noticeably tight and a bit sticky as a result. The P210-5HF slide moves like it's a skate on ice but there is absolutely no play at all in the slide to frame fit and the barrel to slide fit. It feels frictionless but not loose. The P210-5 is as smooth as my Pardini to rack which puts it among the very smoothest actions that I own.


The aftermarket Karl Nill beavertail eliminates the issue of hammer bite. The aftermarket Nill grip has a nice swell to it that fits the hand well and itís an extremely comfortable grip although it doesnít initially appear much different than the standard grips. The grip and feel are excellent; however, the controls leave much to be desired. The small safety is hard to reach and is quite stiff making it hard to use with the primary hand thumb. It also leaves the classic safety scratch that all Swiss P210s have. The slide release is well forward and also hard to reach so either the slide must be sling shotted or power stroked or the weak hand must hit the release.


Finally the magazine release is stiffest heel release I have ever used. I have tons of experience with heel mag releases with the HK P7 and P9S so I normally have no problems with heel releases and can use them surprisingly fast but the one on the P210 is hard as hell to actuate in comparison. I note that the P210-5 has a magazine safety and will not fire without a magazine inserted.


The sights are black on black adjustable target sights which are fine but not remarkable in any way.


The first stage of the trigger is very light and super smooth and the break crisp, clean and light without noticeable overtravel. On a Lyman scale the trigger is 3.0 to 3.1 lbs. The trigger is noticeably better than the Super Target. The Swiss P210-5HF has a near weightless take up with a break that is a touch heavier than the German P210 Legend Super Target. The German P210 has a heavier take up because of a new added safety and a slightly lighter break. Both are good but I prefer the Swiss trigger.


It also comes with the test target with a center to center extreme spread of 1.7 inches for 6 shots at 50 meters and all the paperwork. My first shots ever with it went into one nice hole. I noticed that most of the other shooters that I have let try shooting it were also very accurate with it. I believe that in my hands it is at least as accurate or possible slightly more accurate than even the excellent P210 Legend Super Target.


The P210-5HF has become one of my favorite pistols and it is a joy to shoot and even just to cycle and dryfire.

Yuns
11-01-2014, 17:48
Thanks bac and LSP. I hope to keep contributing to your thread.

bac1023
11-01-2014, 18:01
Thanks bac and LSP. I hope to keep contributing to your thread.


Please do, my friend...

bac1023
11-01-2014, 19:43
Since my initial entries into this thread were nearly five years ago, I will hopefully add a few in the near future.

These will include:

Sig P210-1
Sig P210-6 HF
P210 Legend Target
S&W 845
S&W 745
S&W Comp 40
Benelli MP3S
Delta Top Gun
Walther P88 Competition
ASAI One Pro
HK P9S Sport
Wolf Ultramatic
Lahti M40

...and maybe a few others. Perhaps even my Glock 17L. :shocked:

lifesizepotato
11-01-2014, 19:59
Since my initial entries into this thread were nearly five years ago, I will hopefully add a few in the near future.

These will include:

Sig P210-1
Sig P210-6 HF
P210 Legend Target
S&W 845
S&W 745
S&W Comp 40
Benelli MP3S
Delta Top Gun
Walther P88 Competition
ASAI One Pro
HK P9S Sport
Wolf Ultramatic
Lahti M40

...and maybe a few others. Perhaps even my Glock 17L. :shocked:

Good list. Don't forget the Korth, though. When I made my thread I was actually kind of embarrassed that I didn't have one to write about.

I have a feeling, too, that by the time you make your updates you'll have another 5 or 6 to throw in there. :whistling:

bac1023
11-01-2014, 20:11
Good list. Don't forget the Korth, though. When I made my thread I was actually kind of embarrassed that I didn't have one to write about.

I have a feeling, too, that by the time you make your updates you'll have another 5 or 6 to throw in there. :whistling:

I may include the Korth.

Actually, I'll be picking up a rare Luger at some point soon, so I'd like to include that.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1533744

We both have some service pistols in there, so a Luger would fit in very well. :cool:

Yuns
11-01-2014, 20:56
http://i.imgur.com/Xv8Cf2z.jpg
H&K P9S Target 9mm
Frame: Polymer and Stamped Steel
Slide: Stamped Steel
Unloaded Weight: 35.6 oz with wood grips
Price: $1800-$2500 ($2500+ for the 9mm Sport Group extended barrel models)
Action: DA/SA – SAO when the trigger overtravel stop is engaged
Accuracy: 9
Trigger: 9.5
Ergonomics: 8
Grips: 10
Sights: 9
Finish: 7
Build Quality: 7
Ease of Locating: 8 (9mm)

The P9/P9S series was the pinnacle of the H&K target pistols. The pistol was designed as a combat pistol with hybrid polymer and metal frame and an unusual roller delay mechanism and fixed barrel. The fixed barrel made for both an excellent suppressor host and exceptional accuracy and a handful made it into the inventory of the SEAL teams as a silenced pistol.

Unlike the expensive and skilled labor intensive forged and milled Sig Arms P210, the P9S used more mass production technologies including stamped steel for the slide and frame. Due to the design including the fixed barrel, these production techniques did not harm the accuracy of these firearms and their accuracy rivals the P210.

There are a number of different P9S models but the major ones are the standard P9S also commonly called the P9S Combat, the P9S Sport and the P9S Target. All came in .45 and 9mm. The .45 models (~8.462 made) are rarer than the 9mm models (~41,372 made). There is also the SAO predecessor P9 that is very rare (485 production models made in 9mm).

The standard P9S is sometimes called the P9S Combat and is a DA/SA pistol with 4" barrel, fixed sights, non-adjustable trigger and a plastic grip. Very early models are blued but most are matte phosphate finished. The matte phosphate is well done and smooth and even but very utilitarian.

The P9S Target has an excellent tall front sight (with a highly visible white vertical line on it) paired with an adjustable target rear sight, an adjustable swing up overtravel stop (use of the overtravel stop makes the gun effectively SAO), an adjustable trigger (adjusts only for sear engagement). In theory the adjustment screw only adjusts sear engagement and changes crispness of the trigger pull but in reality the screw changes both trigger weight and crispness. The target model has the standard 4" barrel and is SA/DA.

This example pictured here is my 9mm P9S Target. The SA trigger pull is an incredible 2.25 lbs (0.9 lb take up and 1.35 lb break). The take up is effortless and light and the trigger break is extremely crisp with no overtravel. The trigger break travel is around 1mm and the reset is 4mm. Except for the reset, this trigger is near perfect for me. The accuracy in my hands is excellent.

The ergonomic grip is perfect in my hands and in many other hands. The pistol just melts into my hand and becomes an extension of it. However if your hands are the wrong size they can be painful if the bottom shelf cuts into your wrist.

The controls are relatively easy to use; however, the bizarre manual of arms takes getting used to. The lever on the side that looks like a decocker serves as a slide release/slide catch and a decocker as well as a cocker. There is a slide mounted safety that works in the S&W 3rd gen/Beretta way rather than the 1911 way.

http://i.imgur.com/ZwM4T3B.jpg
H&K P9S Sport Group III .45
Frame: Polymer and Stamped Steel
Slide: Stamped Steel
Unloaded Weight: 40.5 oz with barrel weight and wood grips
Price: $4000+
Action: DA/SA – SAO when the trigger overtravel stop is engaged
Accuracy: 9.5
Trigger: 10
Ergonomics: 8
Grips: 10
Sights: 8.5
Finish: 7
Build Quality: 7
Ease of Locating: 3 (.45)


This is my .45 cal P9S Sport Group III.

The P9S Sport came in Sport Group I, Sport Group II and Sport Group III. This is almost the same as the Target. It has the target sights (but these are black on black), overtravel stop and adjustable target trigger of the target model but came with a Nills made ergonomic target grip as well as the regular plastic grip and with a 5.5 inch barrel with a weight on the end.

The Sport Group I was based on the original SAO P9 so you'll never see one.
The Sport Group II only came with the one 5.5" barrel with the weight.
The early Sport Group III came with one slide and a 4" standard barrel and the 5.5" extended barrel with the weight on it. The front sight is on the slide.
Later Sport Group III came with 2 slides: one was the standard 4" barrel slide with fixed sights and the second was the slide with the 5.5" barrel, the barrel weight and adjustable sights. The front sight is on the barrel weight of these later SGIII models.

I have only ever seen 8 P9S Sport Group III in .45 online. There is one very rare Sport Group model of which I have only ever known of 3. This model comes with 2 slides both with 5.5" barrels and barrel weights. One slide is .45 and one is 9mm and it comes with 4 magazines. 2 .45 and 2 9mm.

The adjustable trigger of the 9mm and .45 models are slightly different. The .45 has a shorter reset and the 9mm a lighter trigger.

My P9S SG III has a SA trigger pull of 3.8 lbs and the trigger pull and reset are each less than 1mm. The break is extremely crisp and the trigger resets right back at the "wall" of the second stage resulting in a less than 1mm reset. This is quite possibly the best trigger of any centerfire pistol I own except for the break of the Pardini.

The extended barrel and sights makes for an excellent long sight radius and the barrel weight balances the pistol nicely and helps bring it back down after recoil.

Test target pictured is around 1.1 inch center to center at 25 meters and the accuracy is stellar in my hands. I believe it to be equal to that of my P210s.

zeleny
11-02-2014, 01:07
Test target pictured is around 1.1 inch center to center at 25 meters and the accuracy is stellar in my hands. I believe it to be equal to that of my P210s.Not if you go by the factory standards for a milspec P210: 10 shots at 50 meters in less than 50mm. Often half that for the target variants.

Yuns
11-02-2014, 11:10
Michael,

I definitely know that the objective standard is higher for the P210s especially when they still required 10 shots. I'm sure this would be borne out on a Ransom rest but from a practical perspective at the 25 yard line and subject to my own limitations as a shooter, I do not see a significant difference either standing or sandbagged which is why I used the qualifier of "in my hands."

bac1023
11-02-2014, 18:35
Michael,

I definitely know that the objective standard is higher for the P210s especially when they still required 10 shots. I'm sure this would be borne out on a Ransom rest but from a practical perspective at the 25 yard line and subject to my own limitations as a shooter, I do not see a significant difference either standing or sandbagged which is why I used the qualifier of "in my hands."


Yeah, a ransom rest is needed to tell the difference in accuracy between pistols like this. The P210 may very well be the most accurate 9mm in the world, but I'm not a good enough shot to realize that or take full advantage of it.

lifesizepotato
11-13-2014, 18:10
If anyone cares, I just got a trigger pull gauge today so I measured the weights of the guns I reviewed. I added them to their respective reviews in this thread. When evaluating a trigger I usually put more weight (heh) on things like creep and overtravel than pull weight, but it should still be a useful data point.

bac1023
11-13-2014, 18:40
If anyone cares, I just got a trigger pull gauge today so I measured the weights of the guns I reviewed. I added them to their respective reviews in this thread. When evaluating a trigger I usually put more weight (heh) on things like creep and overtravel than pull weight, but it should still be a useful data point.

Cool :cool:

I'll take a look, as I don't own a gauge.

Yuns
11-13-2014, 20:49
Thanks for the updated trigger weight data LSP. Very interesting to see the numbers. I have been sorely tempted to buy a Triggerscan at some point so I can do travel vs weight graphs.

bac1023
11-13-2014, 21:09
Thanks for the updated trigger weight data LSP. Very interesting to see the numbers. I have been sorely tempted to buy a Triggerscan at some point so I can do travel vs weight graphs.

Yeah, I've been telling myself to pick one up for a couple years now. :embarassed:

KIMBERSM
11-15-2014, 07:01
Yeah, a ransom rest is needed to tell the difference in accuracy between pistols like this. The P210 may very well be the most accurate 9mm in the world, but I'm not a good enough shot to realize that or take full advantage of it.

what will be the going rate value for a sig P210-6[target sights] from the late seventies serial# 89xxx in good condition ?

bac1023
11-15-2014, 08:41
what will be the going rate value for a sig P210-6[target sights] from the late seventies serial# 89xxx in good condition ?

Hard to say, as values are all over the board. Without seeing it, I'd have to think somewhere between $2500 and $3000. With the box and papers, maybe even a little more depending on exact condition.

If "good" condition means 90% or below, I'd say less. Good condition can mean many different things.

KIMBERSM
11-15-2014, 08:50
Hard to say, as values are all over the board. Without seeing it, I'd have to think somewhere between $2500 and $3000. With the box and papers, maybe even a little more depending on exact condition.

If "good" condition means 90% or below, I'd say less. Good condition can mean many different things.

Its 98% with 5 magazines and since it is before the CNC area[its from 1979] but no box or papers I thought 3000 is fair price, in the ballpark?

bac1023
11-15-2014, 09:31
Its 98% with 5 magazines and since it is before the CNC area[its from 1979] but no box or papers I thought 3000 is fair price, in the ballpark?

$3000 is fair. Good luck. :cool:

KIMBERSM
11-15-2014, 10:02
$3000 is fair. Good luck. :cool:

thank you as usual:cool:

bac1023
11-15-2014, 10:03
Of course...