Are books really necessary? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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marklukich
04-19-2010, 17:36
Just getting started in reloading... Think I've read every thread available in the Reloading Area...

Most often, I see recommendations to get data from at least 2 or more books for a given load...

My question is this - with all the information available on the internet, are reloading books really necessary?

Just asking - mainly because I only plan on reloading 9mm for my Glocks and Kahr and can't see a reason why I would need books full of information I don't want/need just to get the (very) limited amount of info I do want...

Thanks in advance for any and all inputs...

dudel
04-19-2010, 17:42
So get the Loadbooks. Who verifies the info you find on the internet? someone on this forum makes a type on the charge weight and how would you know? Once you have experience, you know that 8gr of BE in a 9mm is just wrong, but how would you know just starting out?

As an example, yesterday I was looking for a load for 45 ACP with a 185gr HBRN plated Berry's projectile and BE. The Lyman book seemed low by 2 grains compared to Hornady, Speer and Loadbooks. Looking at the velocity numbers, I was able to extrapolate a load that fits with all books.

marklukich
04-19-2010, 17:47
how would you know?

I wouldn't... and I know that...

I wasn't talking about using load data from individuals, I was talking about using it off of company sites - such as www.wwpowder.com for Winchester WSF powder. Wouldn't they know and/or verify their information as much as a book publisher?

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to see what the benefit would be...

DoctaGlockta
04-19-2010, 17:47
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/131/400585782_2b196c7100.jpg

This guy says now you need 4 books.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://farm1.static.flickr.com/131/400585782_2b196c7100.jpg&imgrefurl=http://flickr.com/photos/silverlinedwinnebago/400585782/&usg=__L1s9DB82UfOFe3gAW4eMVIf7Ai0=&h=333&w=500&sz=99&hl=en&start=9&sig2=1UowtAkRTPXx_ts52Gg8LA&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=snLodT5t7auI0M:&tbnh=87&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dold%2Bman%2Bgiving%2Badvice%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=sOnMS9aqMMGqlAerw-TxDQ

dudel
04-19-2010, 17:50
I wouldn't... and I know that...

I wasn't talking about using load data from individuals, I was talking about using it off of company sites - such as www.wwpowder.com (http://www.wwpowder.com) for Winchester WSF powder. Wouldn't they know and/or verify their information as much as a book publisher?

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to see what the benefit would be...

Again, get a loadbook for the caliber you are interested. Costs about what you'd spend for a Happy meal, and you get load data from a wide variety of sources for a wide variety of projectiles.

marklukich
04-19-2010, 17:51
Again, get a loadbook for the caliber you are interested.

Didn't know they made them for individual calibers... Any recommendations for a book for 9mm?

And thanks, btw...

Diesel_Bomber
04-19-2010, 17:53
Load books are cheaper than one KB.

Just sayin'.

robin303
04-19-2010, 17:58
+1 on the load books. I trust the loads on Manufactures Web Sites and some seem weak so they wont get sued is my guess but question some others given by someone off the street when there is nobody to double check. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

robin303
04-19-2010, 18:00
Didn't know they made them for individual calibers... Any recommendations for a book for 9mm?

And thanks, btw...

http://www.midwayusa.com/Search/#9mm%20Loadbook____-_1-2-4_8-16-32

Get it in 3 days.

tyger006
04-19-2010, 18:03
I believe that manuals are a must for the reloader. I am sure you can get by with single caliber load books if you really really do your homework online, but having those books is a huge resource! I get a different one every other year and I still reference the old ones more than you would think!

dudel
04-19-2010, 18:03
Didn't know they made them for individual calibers... Any recommendations for a book for 9mm?

And thanks, btw...

No problem.

http://loadbooks.com/

cheaper at Midway:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=185458

They print one book per caliber.

Don

dudel
04-19-2010, 18:05
+1 Powders change. My Hornady books show different charge weights for the same caliber/projectile.

I believe that manuals are a must for the reloader. I am sure you can get by with single caliber load books if you really really do your homework online, but having those books is a huge resource! I get a different one every other year and I still reference the old ones more than you would think!

GioaJack
04-19-2010, 18:33
The need for loading manuals is dependent on how much you want to learn about and how involved you want to be in your hobby.

If your goal is just to be a pair of hands on an assembly line the reputable on-line resources or load books in your calibers will fill your needs quite well.

It very much akin to following a recipe in a cook book... it certainly doesn't make you a chef but it will satisfy your immediate appetite.

Loading manuals contain much more information than just load data... they all have chapters on the mechanics of ballistics, reviews of equipment, what you should do and how to do it, what you shouldn't do and how to avoid it and more importantly... why.

If you ever want to get to a point where you can pass on information to the next generation of loaders you'll need to know and understand a lot more than you'll ever learn out of a cook book.

Jack

RLDS45S
04-19-2010, 18:38
The information contained on the internet IS NOT SUFFICIENT for safe and reliable reloading. The NEWBE reloading needs at a min. Lyman 49th, and at least 2 or more of the following manuals.....Hornady, Sierra, Speer, Nosler, Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, Handloading for Competition, and the granddaddy The ABC's of Reloading. To question it is not a good idea. Buy once and cry once! You can never have enough information.....

dudel
04-19-2010, 19:26
The information contained on the internet IS NOT SUFFICIENT for safe and reliable reloading. The NEWBE reloading needs at a min. Lyman 49th, and at least 2 or more of the following manuals.....Hornady, Sierra, Speer, Nosler, Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, Handloading for Competition, and the granddaddy The ABC's of Reloading. To question it is not a good idea. Buy once and cry once! You can never have enough information.....

+1 After 20+ years of reloading, I still buy books. I still learn something new from them. Jack made a good point. Do you want to eat fast food all your life; or would you like to try something much, much better?

Those who barely scratch at the surface of this hobby, will never reap the full benefits of it.

M4J0R T0M
04-19-2010, 20:26
Let me just throw this out there...

SAFETY FIRST!

I am much like you, very new to reloading. Starting off, I read bunches of info here and on other forums and thought the same thing, "Do I really need those books?". But, as I discovered, every one had the same opinion. Start with the manuals. If you're coming to the forums seeking knowledge and advice, take the one piece of advice that is universal amongst all the old-timers (yes I'm talking about you Jack), and get yourself some manuals. I got the ABC's of reloading and Lyman's 49th.

Both manuals had very valuable safety info that I never ran across on any of the forums. So if you value the idea of keeping your hands and face intact, do yourself a favor and get a couple manuals.

mattellis2
04-19-2010, 20:38
here is my pet load for .308 winchester....

trim to length: 2.005"
primer: remington 9.5 LRP
projectile: 175 grain a-max
propellant: 123.2 grains of bullseye. note: this is a compressed load.
c.o.l. 2.780"

hey, you read it on the internet, it has to be good, right? :whistling:

FlyfishermanMike
04-19-2010, 21:51
I don't own any of the books but have read them all. I would start a new load without checking 3+ of them then averaging them out. With some loads I've found a pretty big range and even very different max loads. The internet is a great supplement but shouldn't be your end all. Some books have seemed pretty worthless with little amounts of data depending on the powder. I can't believe how some can leave out an important piece like OAL?!

380Seecamp
04-20-2010, 04:22
here is my pet load for .308 winchester....

trim to length: 2.005"
primer: remington 9.5 LRP
projectile: 175 grain a-max
propellant: 123.2 grains of bullseye. note: this is a compressed load.
c.o.l. 2.780"

hey, you read it on the internet, it has to be good, right? :whistling:

Guaranteed one-hole group!

http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Savge_Blow_Up_2_001.jpg

:supergrin:

marklukich
04-20-2010, 04:59
I appreciate all the advice - not sure I fully understand it - yet - but will definitely heed it...

I'll go see if I can find Lyman's 49th and the ABC's of Reloading and do some (more) reading before I get started.

I may be old and stubborn, but I'm not stupid. When every response says I need the books and not a single one says no, that tells me I need to open my mind up more and listen to what I'm being told...

Again - thanks to all who took the time to respond.

M4J0R T0M
04-20-2010, 07:26
I appreciate all the advice - not sure I fully understand it - yet - but will definitely heed it...

I'll go see if I can find Lyman's 49th and the ABC's of Reloading and do some (more) reading before I get started.

I may be old and stubborn, but I'm not stupid. When every response says I need the books and not a single one says no, that tells me I need to open my mind up more and listen to what I'm being told...

Again - thanks to all who took the time to respond.

Great choice in reading material. You will find some of the info redundant but all of it is useful. The ABC's are more like a newb's guide to reloading, and the Lyman's is more advanced and also has actual load data.

I'll give you an example of how the books probably saved some of my extremities. Primarily, I load .40 which is a very high pressure load, even on the lower end. This in turn means you have to be very careful with case inspection to make sure you dont have any over pressuring. I read on here about the infamous Glock bulge on .40 cases from where the case is not fully supported under the feedramp. Most of the replies were that it is normal and not to worry about it. And had I not gotten the manual and read on the importance of checking ALL your brass I could have potentially had a KB.

Now you may already know that you have to check every case, if so then you are not much a newb as I was, but at the very least the books will confirm some of the good advice you find here and dispel the rest.

Oh yeah, welcome to reloading. It is a fun and addicting hobby.

fredj338
04-20-2010, 11:47
I wouldn't... and I know that...

I wasn't talking about using load data from individuals, I was talking about using it off of company sites - such as www.wwpowder.com for Winchester WSF powder. Wouldn't they know and/or verify their information as much as a book publisher?

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to see what the benefit would be...
The problem w/ a lot powder manuf data is limited powder/bullet choices. Some, like Alliant, only give a max charge wt. Is it just me or are new reloaders afraid to read a book? The other point is you can have the books on your bench where you reload. The on-line soiurces are great for cross ref but my computer is not at my bench. Of course yo ucan print out stuff & organize it, oh yeah, like a loading manual.:supergrin:

Gunnut 45/454
04-20-2010, 12:54
Just my $.02! Being lazy about reloading will get you into trouble sooner or later! If you enjoy the use of your hands and eye's an may even your life then use the manuals! Yes alot of the reloading manuals are online -use them as well but that one time you don't have access to the net and you decide to go off of memory might be the last time you ever shoot again! Simple safety practices can make for a lifetime of shoot joy- one lapse can ruin a life is it worth it?:faint:

das9mm26
04-20-2010, 13:13
[quote=Diesel_Bomber;15153433]Load books are cheaper than one KB.

Just sayin'.[/quote

+1 on GETTING THE BOOKS....and ABSORBING THEIR CONTENTS!!!!
Yes, the Internet DOES have a variety of GOOD, informative sites on reloading data...BUT, as others have said...This ISN'T a "perfect" world, and typos DO occur.....and, when it comes to reloading......MISTAKES CAN COST YOU!!!!
For me, the best bet was to get a couple of the better-known publications (in my case, the Lyman 49th Edition and "The A-B-C's of Reloading") and just "devour" the contents (...err...figuratively....!) BEFORE buying ANY reloading equipment. Had I rushed into my first purchase "plan"....it would have cost me several hundred $$ more than what I ended up with--AFTER reading about the pros and cons of various presses available.....Some folks want a simple, no-frills setup; others like something a bit faster to operate and more elaborate....It all boils down to what YOU want to accomplish...and HOW YOU choose to do it.
Taking time up front to sort everything out will reap dividends down the road......here's hoping you get to like reloading and savor its many benefits!
Good Luck! Stay Safe!

WiskyT
04-20-2010, 15:58
Books? Who needs books? obama reads books and that's all I need to know about books.

KIDCOP
04-21-2010, 02:30
For someone just starting out a reloading manual from any of the majors is paramount. Load books are fine but they won't give you trouble shooting idea's, or the why's and why not's.

If you think just because you read a bunch of stuff on the net your are ready to make 9mm, you are not even close. Until you have read the how to sections where each required step is explained a couple of times I would not load anything. It's your gun your hand and your face.

marklukich
04-21-2010, 04:30
Books are on their way from MidwayUSA...

I appreciate all the helpful responses - gave me some things to think about that I hadn't considered.

A few of you apparently made some assumptions - well, let's just say they were incorrect. I'm only going to be loading 9mm. I'll be loading the same load every time - at least for the next 4k to 5k rounds - so once I get my equipment set up, there will be no changes, etc to be made from memory... (Yes, I will verify everything each and every time I load a new batch) I'm not interested (at least not yet) in experimenting with different loads - I'll settle on a nice, safe, middle-of-the-road load. All I want is the things to go bang and put a hole in the paper...

Sorry - got a little long-winded there... Just wanted to explain myself as I got the feeling that some thought I'm an idiot that was going into this blind and was going to try and reload everything under the sun at max pressures, etc...

Peace - and thanks...

fredj338
04-21-2010, 09:34
Books are on their way from MidwayUSA...

I appreciate all the helpful responses - gave me some things to think about that I hadn't considered.

A few of you apparently made some assumptions - well, let's just say they were incorrect. I'm only going to be loading 9mm. I'll be loading the same load every time - at least for the next 4k to 5k rounds - so once I get my equipment set up, there will be no changes, etc to be made from memory... (Yes, I will verify everything each and every time I load a new batch) I'm not interested (at least not yet) in experimenting with different loads - I'll settle on a nice, safe, middle-of-the-road load. All I want is the things to go bang and put a hole in the paper...

Sorry - got a little long-winded there... Just wanted to explain myself as I got the feeling that some thought I'm an idiot that was going into this blind and was going to try and reload everything under the sun at max pressures, etc...

Peace - and thanks...
There are really no assumptions being made. Just how are you going to get to the one load you describe? It doesn't exist ina any book. You just don't open the page to 9mm & put a finger in it & say there is my load. It's why you need a reloading manual. There are powders to consider, maybe 12 diff useable ones for 9mm. There are bullets to consider; 115gr, 124gr, 147gr. Just that little bit of information is going to require you test & work loads up to find what you want. Really, after you read ABCs, you'll have a better understanding of why some of us roll our eyes @ newbs that think it's baking a cake.:upeyes:

PCJim
04-21-2010, 15:27
Mark, as Fred just stated, you will be "experimenting" with several different recipes even if using only one powder and one bullet. You will want to find that "best" load given the components you will use and specific for your 9mm. Granted that once that is found, you can reload to your heart's content the remaining bullets on hand.

But, you will probably get bored. With so many different powders and bullet combinations, surely there might be an even better combination. And so, the experimentation continues.

I have a primary load that is my current go to recipe. But I also have probably five or six possible 9mm powders and maybe eight different bullet weights/profiles on hand, with recipes for each so that if any one component becomes temporarily unavailable, I have known good recipes that will suffice until supplies loosen up.

fredj338
04-21-2010, 16:30
Mark, as Fred just stated, you will be "experimenting" with several different recipes even if using only one powder and one bullet. You will want to find that "best" load given the components you will use and specific for your 9mm. Granted that once that is found, you can reload to your heart's content the remaining bullets on hand.

But, you will probably get bored. With so many different powders and bullet combinations, surely there might be an even better combination. And so, the experimentation continues.
I have a primary load that is my current go to recipe. But I also have probably five or six possible 9mm powders and maybe eight different bullet weights/profiles on hand, with recipes for each so that if any one component becomes temporarily unavailable, I have known good recipes that will suffice until supplies loosen up.
Not to mention what powder, what bullet? How does one that knows nothing about reloading come to that decision? Then what if it was a bad decision, ie, TG for say a 124grFMJ bullet @ 1175fps? There just has to be more thought put into reloading than; "hey what powder & bullet do you guys use".:upeyes:

thorn137
04-21-2010, 18:10
Question, as I haven't read the inside of these manuals: Do the Speer, Nosler, and Hornady books contain load data for bullets NOT made by those respective companies? In other words, does the Speer book have data for Hornady bullets... or "plain" plated or lead bullets?

thorn

PCJim
04-21-2010, 21:45
Question, as I haven't read the inside of these manuals: Do the Speer, Nosler, and Hornady books contain load data for bullets NOT made by those respective companies? In other words, does the Speer book have data for Hornady bullets... or "plain" plated or lead bullets?

thorn


No.

You can, however, use the data provided by those companies to help confirm other recipes for similar weight and design bullets. While there will be possible differences in bearing surfaces and the ogive profile, they will be similar enough for reference and potential substitution (for those with some reloading experience under their collar).

Colorado4Wheel
04-22-2010, 11:49
Question, as I haven't read the inside of these manuals: Do the Speer, Nosler, and Hornady books contain load data for bullets NOT made by those respective companies? In other words, does the Speer book have data for Hornady bullets... or "plain" plated or lead bullets?

thorn

Lyman doesn't make bullets, just lead bullet molds. They use a variety of bullets in their recipes.

GLShooter
04-22-2010, 12:09
I like to compare loading data as many of the books are bullet specific. After a while you can see trends in loading certain powders. You can also pick up the phone or send an e-mail to the powder and bullet guys. Accurate, Sierra and Hodgdon are super about giving advice.

I read OLD books too to get a feel for where this all got started. Sharpe's book on reloading is over 50 years old but much of it still applies to todays goodies.

Greg

PS: In short YES!! you need those books. -- G:upeyes:

dla
04-22-2010, 12:29
Just getting started in reloading... Think I've read every thread available in the Reloading Area...

Most often, I see recommendations to get data from at least 2 or more books for a given load...

My question is this - with all the information available on the internet, are reloading books really necessary?

Just asking - mainly because I only plan on reloading 9mm for my Glocks and Kahr and can't see a reason why I would need books full of information I don't want/need just to get the (very) limited amount of info I do want...

Thanks in advance for any and all inputs...

No. In pre-internet days the books were invaluable. Save a tree, skip the book.

BUT, the burden is on you to make prudent decisions about load data and practices that you pay attention to. There is a lot of really bad information available - often posted by arm-chair "experts", wannabes, and flat stupid people.

Colorado4Wheel
04-22-2010, 13:14
Just getting started in reloading... Think I've read every thread available in the Reloading Area...

Most often, I see recommendations to get data from at least 2 or more books for a given load...

My question is this - with all the information available on the internet, are reloading books really necessary?

Just asking - mainly because I only plan on reloading 9mm for my Glocks and Kahr and can't see a reason why I would need books full of information I don't want/need just to get the (very) limited amount of info I do want...

Thanks in advance for any and all inputs...


For a new reloader to not read a book about the subject is just not wise in my opinion. The internet is full of conflicting views on things. A book is the best way for a new reloader to learn about the hobby. Just go to the Library and inter library loan the book. It won't take long to read. Barnes and Nobel will let you read it while you sit and drink coffee. Do something besides the internet.

WiskyT
04-22-2010, 13:15
No. In pre-internet days the books were invaluable. Save a tree, skip the book.

BUT, the burden is on you to make prudent decisions about load data and practices that you pay attention to. There is a lot of really bad information available - often posted by arm-chair "experts", wannabes, and flat stupid people.

Free advice from un-edited sources that can't be held responsible for giving stupid advice is not the best way to learn about something dangerous. Books are published by companies who hire editors and use laboratories to make sure the info they give is accurate.

But other than that, books are stupid, who needs 'em?:upeyes:

fredj338
04-22-2010, 13:22
No. In pre-internet days the books were invaluable. Save a tree, skip the book.

BUT, the burden is on you to make prudent decisions about load data and practices that you pay attention to. There is a lot of really bad information available - often posted by arm-chair "experts", wannabes, and flat stupid people.

HA! We'll see how long you keep all you fingers. NEVER take data off an internet site that hasn't been vetted. Powder manuf sites are fine, but pretty limited. Not using loading data form known vetted sources is just flying by the seat of your pants. Not a good practice whne making small explosive devices. Baking a cake, fine, take any recipe, making handloaded amomo, use data references. The internet is not a substitute but a godd addition.:upeyes:

ssgrock3
04-22-2010, 13:58
There are ways to get good data off the net, powder mfg's sites, but at least for myself, the recipes I see online and by other posters is taken as their experiance and weighed against my own. If I ask for one, it is because I am probably tweaking a load and want ideas. There are guys like "clark"? that if no one else posts some ideas, then the user could end up with something they didn't want.

Reloading books are good ways to have/make safe ammunition. You cannot go wrong following one. Worst case scenario, it should works as intended. When a person gets more experiance, then they can tailor that data to their gun or goal.