Closed Folder as a Force Option [Archive] - Glock Talk

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mercop
04-22-2010, 16:21
For a long time, MCS has advocated drawing a closed folder into a hammer fist grip as part of deployment, especially for IET. This should not be confused with pre-deployment. We teach this as part of the draw because there is a high probability that under combat conditions you may not have the space or time to open the blade. The situation may also have changed from the time you decided you needed to use deadly force until the time you were able to get your knife out. There was no longer a threat that required deadly force, but mechanical force is still needed.

Drawing your folder closed as part of the draw should not be confused with pre-deploying (palming) a closed folder because you have alerted to a specific threat, or you are in a place that you feel the need to pre-deploy your closed folder.

Several years ago while attending SHOT Show, a friend and I went to a tattoo party hosted by Strider Knives. Afterward, we were walking towards our rental car parked in an alley. Because we had planned to do some drinking, I had chosen not to carry a pistol. My primary deadly force option was a Spyderco Military. As we walked out, two guys walking together kind of split up to walk around us. Without conscious thought, I palmed the Spyderco into my hand. We gave them the Sheepdog vs Wolves nod and everyone went on their way. I had already decided in my mind that I would hammer fist the one closest to me before moving onto the next one. Not that the buddy with me, a combat veteran, was any slouch.

We really need to consider the difference between "palming", which when done correctly should not let anyone see the knife in your hand, and brandishing a closed or open folder. As long as nobody sees the knife, you should be OK. I would have to assume, like me, that many of you reading this, would see even a closed folder as a deadly threat during a confrontation depending on the totality of the circumstances. If someone takes out a folder, closed or open, it is a deadly force threat. This is of course assuming that they are close to contact distance, and there is no physical barrier between us.

It really all comes down to the fact that most bad guys don't think they are bad guys. They certainly don't think that someone they have an altercation with is a good guy. Deploying a closed folder and allowing it to be seen is a very risky proposition. Just because you are concentrating on the threat in front of you does not mean that someone behind you or to the side cannot see your palmed folder. Once someone becomes aware of your weapon, they may very likely escalate their us of force as well.

Folders have going for them over fixed blades what pocket pistols have going for them over full size handguns. The ability to be discreetly held in the palm or in the pocket when the need arises. Transparency is your friend.

The truth is that the Central Nervous Disruption that can be caused by the concentration of force on a small surface area with a closed folder is likely to have a more immediately noticeable result than a cut or stab with an open folder. It may very well keep you from having to use deadly force.

It does need to be understood that any use of force situation is going to be like looking at a piece of modern art and asking "What do you see". It is all about background, and perception.

Jayman
04-22-2010, 17:47
I think the biggest issue you already mentioned, i.e. somebody seeing it and interpreting it as time for deadly force. If you do indeed bring it out discretely, then that is not an issue. In an altercation people probably can't tell what you hit them with anyway. Another alternative that may be worthwhile is a small expandable baton if such is legal to carry concealed. The smaller ASP is readily concealable and expands to 16". You can use it closed to deliver strikes, extend it, and if you really needed to, you could use it in a lethal force manner by applying strikes to such targets as head and neck. Some individuals may be deterred by you extending it in an aggressive manner as well, although that can't be counted on. (Obviously.) Then again, most people cart around a folding knife as a matter of course for the utilitarian value, and secondly as a defensive tool. A baton would be a single purpose item, add to your weight/bulk/concealment needs, and require some level of additional training/practice.

mercop
04-22-2010, 18:11
I have deployed an expandable baton several times, actually bending a 26 inch model on a human leg. The problem with batons and most baton training is the reliance of striking large muscle groups instead of bone as intended.- George

Jayman
04-22-2010, 18:16
I have deployed an expandable baton several times, actually bending a 26 inch model on a human leg. The problem with batons and most baton training is the reliance of striking large muscle groups instead of bone as intended.- George

One of the guys I train with has bent several. I tend to think of them as single use items, quite honestly. Police are taught to hit the target areas you mention, but other impact weapon systems don't. (Then again, most Kali systems emphasize head or hand hits, one of which will kill a person, as you know.) The shorter batons don't bend as readily, but they don't develop as much force, either. :(

mercop
04-23-2010, 07:16
Bring back the sap
1) Don't break the law
2) Obey verbal commands:)

DBZ220
04-23-2010, 12:23
Always loved the Benchmade AFCK series for its value closed. Same goes for the Emerson CQC-8 and more recently the Spydie Police 3. I've trained with those models over the years and found them to excel as much closed as they do open. As you mentioned, I've had them in hand during similar situations, especially when a firearm wasn't or couldn't be carried.

mitchshrader
04-23-2010, 12:28
I can see putting your hand on it, in your pocket. (generally if in public I'm in a jacket) ..

but to draw it FROM the pocket risks triggering THEIR situational awareness and potentially turning a non event into a confrontation.

I know you acknowledged that, rightfully, and merely feel the balance has more to do with level of risk than one 'best' strategy.

Some places, I'd do it your way, but I already have firm policies not to be in those places.

Jayman
04-23-2010, 22:36
Bring back the sap
1) Don't break the law
2) Obey verbal commands:)My agency prohibits saps and has since before I ever showed up. :(

Squaw Man Wolfer
04-24-2010, 07:49
Great summary! I've been doing it for years. I do want to note that most street folks will know you're palming something, if only because they are doing so themselves. In a wussy country, though, you will be treated like you are carrying an Uzi, so you might as well carry one.

mercop
04-24-2010, 09:48
Here is a follow up piece I wrote-
http://mail.myptsmail.com/mercop/blog/?p=664

DoubleWide
05-07-2010, 17:18
I can see putting your hand on it, in your pocket. (generally if in public I'm in a jacket) ..

but to draw it FROM the pocket risks triggering THEIR situational awareness and potentially turning a non event into a confrontation.

I know you acknowledged that, rightfully, and merely feel the balance has more to do with level of risk than one 'best' strategy.

Some places, I'd do it your way, but I already have firm policies not to be in those places.

Good point. From their view, those two guys gave way to move around you. As they neared you, you discreetly pulled a knife on them. The off duty cop behind you gets the same impression. I'd rather not have my hands in my jacket pockets though.