Women Instructors - Women Students ? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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PEC-Memphis
04-29-2010, 16:49
A couple of ranges which offer permit classes have "women only" classes mostly taught by women instructors.

So here's the question for the women in the forum:

Would you rather take a class where all of the classmates were women and/or the instructor is female?

If you would, why?

Are you more concerned about the quality of the instruction regardless of the gender of the instructor ?

degoodman
04-29-2010, 17:59
<--- Not a Woman. But I have posed this question to several women whom I've exposed to firearms in the context of defensive use.

The answer to the first question is yes alot of the time. not always, but often. And when the women have been further probed on the reasons, I've gotten several.

The first one is simply that many women have been the victim of poor training experiences by men who do not teach in "gender neutral" ways. I've seen examples with my own eyes where overzealous range masters intervene in disproportionally negative ways towards women who make mistakes, and are dismissive of more flagrant safety mistakes of men in the same class or on the same range.

Men frequently don't realize how gender specific much of the equipment surrounding firearms carry is. They don't understand that its not just the fashion of the day that limits the ability to carry a firearm on the belt, but the fact that most women have hips and breasts that make the same gun in the same holster sit completely differently on their bodies and make drawing using the cookie cutter technique quite difficult. They flat don't know how to properly carry a purse, or draw a gun from one, even a purse designed for firearms carry, etc etc etc.

That also extends to the physical differences between men and women. Having offered instruction to a few "physically endowed" women with larger chests, it was amazing to me how much impact that had on something as simple as drawing a full sized pistol from a belt holster with a forward cant, or getting into a good two handed stance changes when the "girls" are in the mix.

Another factor, and an unfortunate one, is that many women who come to realize the need for a defensive firearm have come to that realization because they've been a victim of a crime, and specifically domestic violence or sexual assault. Simply being in a room with a group of men, all of whom are armed, with instructors operating from a position of dominance is more than they can handle with whatever place in their recovery they are.

on the quality of instruction component, and this is me talking now, not retelling the answers I've been given, I think that everyone wants the highest quality instruction they can afford. that having been said, I think that often, as long as what they're being told isn't flat out wrong, many female shooters will get more benefit from an average class instructed by women compared to a "top notch" class taught and attended by men simply because they absorb the material better in an environment where they are more comfortable.

Mrs.Cicero
04-29-2010, 18:43
I would have preferred a woman-student-only class (gender of instructor I'm neutral on, as long as he/she is competent) when I was first learning to shoot, partly because I would have been more comfortable asking questions, and partly because I dislike being the reason a bunch of men have to sit thru a "how to draw from a purse" demo/lecture/lesson, when they'll never need to know that.
Fifteen years later, I don't think there are any women-only tactical courses at my level. They are all for rank beginners. And at this point, I'm so used to being the "only girl in class" that a class full of chatty women would irritate the daylights out of me. I know I'm weird. My husband doesn't mind.

Mrs.Cicero

PEC-Memphis
04-30-2010, 08:24
Mrs.Cicero & Degoodman,

Thanks for taking the amount of time that you have, and the well reasoned answers, in response to my question.

I am going to teach a basic class to an all female class in about a month. If it works out I will have another instructor (who is female) teach the class as well (she's having some issues beyond her control right now).

David Armstrong
04-30-2010, 11:54
Two points already made. One, an all-woman class helps with the training environment. Women tend to be more supportive while men tend to be more competitive. Two, the gender of the instructor doesn't matter nearly as much as the instructor understanding how to teach to different genders.
An excellent resource on this is "Teaching Women to Shoot" by Vicki Farnam, of DTI.

janice6
04-30-2010, 12:03
How many times have you seen "what pistol shall I get for my wife/girlfriend".

PEC-Memphis
04-30-2010, 12:48
Two points already made. One, an all-woman class helps with the training environment. Women tend to be more supportive while men tend to be more competitive. Two, the gender of the instructor doesn't matter nearly as much as the instructor understanding how to teach to different genders.
An excellent resource on this is "Teaching Women to Shoot" by Vicki Farnam, of DTI.

David - Thanks for the tip I wonder if Vicki :eyelashes: knows John :winkie:

ExxoticOne
04-30-2010, 19:29
Would you rather take a class where all of the classmates were women and/or the instructor is female?

If you would, why?

Are you more concerned about the quality of the instruction regardless of the gender of the instructor ?

Shooting with a group of experienced women is fun.

Learning to shoot with a group of inexperienced women is borderline dangerous and overall, very irritating.

I prefer a male instructor for weapons training and self-defense.

sawgrass
04-30-2010, 20:09
Shooting with a group of experienced women is fun.

Learning to shoot with a group of inexperienced women is borderline dangerous and overall, very irritating.

I prefer a male instructor for weapons training and self-defense.

This isn't gender specific. Inexperience is inexperience. Everyone pulls
the trigger the same way.

When I took my CCW class, I was the only woman. I'm used to that
so it was just another day. However, it might be nice to be in a class
with other women. It wouldn't matter to me re:gender of the instructor
as long as S/He is competent, has the right attitude, and recognizes the
differences women and men face regarding firearms. That includes
carry issues and "what if" court/jury issues.

ExxoticOne
05-01-2010, 10:10
Everyone pulls the trigger the same way.

It's the intestinal fortitude required to pull the trigger that I question.

David Armstrong
05-01-2010, 15:10
David - Thanks for the tip I wonder if Vicki :eyelashes: knows John :winkie:
I would bet she knows him rather intimately.:supergrin:

Lone_Wolfe
05-01-2010, 16:46
Would you rather take a class where all of the classmates were women and/or the instructor is female?

If you would, why?

Are you more concerned about the quality of the instruction regardless of the gender of the instructor ?

I used to be a shooting coach for a ladies only shooting group, and I specialized in first-time shooters, especially the nervous ones. Group after group there was always at least one who would tell me "I never would have done this if men were here too. It's so much less intimidating this way". More than half of the students I coached became regular shooters with the group.

PEC-Memphis
05-01-2010, 19:45
I used to be a shooting coach for a ladies only shooting group, and I specialized in first-time shooters, especially the nervous ones. Group after group there was always at least one who would tell me "I never would have done this if men were here too. It's so much less intimidating this way". More than half of the students I coached became regular shooters with the group.

Nice to hear from you Lone Wolf !

Lone_Wolfe
05-01-2010, 19:49
Nice to hear from you Lone Wolf !

Thanks! Good to see you too. :wavey:

Mrs.Cicero
05-03-2010, 07:12
ExxOne, Sawgrass, LW...

I have to admit, one of THE most irritating things I hear in nearly every martial arts/self-defense course I've taken/take currently is some woman saying she could never hit/shoot/hurt someone intentionally. It always makes me want to slap them upside the head (obviously I have overcome my difficulties with the concept and now have to fight the urge to evoke pain to prevent stupidity). One of the newbs in my kickboxing class said it this last week, fortunately within the instructor's hearing... because he immediately came back with "but if someone was trying to grab one of your kids you could, couldn't you?" She said, "Yes. " He said, "Just use that." I said, "Now hit my mitts like I'm the kidnapper." It worked. But it still bothers me that she is stuck in a mindset that won't allow for her own defense.

Mrs.Cicero

sawgrass
05-03-2010, 08:03
Mrs. Cicero,
I don't understand that mindset. It makes you wonder why they
are even in the class.

Someone on GT has a sig line:
"If someone is trying to kill you, you kill them right back"

I smile when I see it, because that's just about it.

Sawgrass

Lone_Wolfe
05-03-2010, 08:27
Mrs C, I didn't run into a whole lot of that and when I did they weren't reluctant to overcome that. So many of my groups coming through had at lest one woman that had been attacked, threatened, or hurt before and that was why they were learning to shoot. I would ask them if they would talk about it to the group and then I would talk about how a gun might have changed the outcome if it was the case. Many of my ladies would tell me afterward that they felt empowered by that and learning to handle and use a gun. It always made my day to hear it.

sawgrass
05-03-2010, 08:44
This thread has brought to mind a couple of events that happened
here in the TC.

Recently, during a home invasion Mr. went looking for the intruder.
The shotgun ended up going off, he killed his wife, and took a round
in the leg. The intruder escaped.

A young man went into his parents home with the intention of killing
them for the insurance money. The Mrs. went looking for the noise.
Her son shot and killed her. Mr. jumped out the bedroom window and
ran to the neighbors. Mr. was armed.

This is something that my SO and I discuss.
We are in agreement, you dial 911, get off the phone.
Wait for the intruder to come to you.

Wolfe, the irony of you getting shot...damn.

Mrs.Cicero
05-03-2010, 10:44
Mrs. Cicero,
I don't understand that mindset. It makes you wonder why they
are even in the class.

Someone on GT has a sig line:
"If someone is trying to kill you, you kill them right back"

I smile when I see it, because that's just about it.

Sawgrass

I may have to steal that sig line.

As for why they are in the class - the kickboxing classes have the rep for being the hardest workouts at the gym - so that means two types of people show up - the ones who want to kickbox, and the ones who just want the toughest physical workout. The ones who want to know how to kickbox don't say that. More than one of the students who just want to get into better shape do. Occasionally the instructor addresses it. He has more patience than I do.

I've heard it in pistol classes from women who come in with the attitude that they are simply going to bluff any attacker away by looking like they know what they are doing, and/or think they are going to learn to shoot "well enough to just injure their abusive spouse enough to make him stop" (yes, I've actually heard that). They seem to have a hard time understanding the concepts that a) if he beats on you, he is arrogant enough to believe you won't shoot him, and if you really won't, he'll take the gun and whip you with it at best, and b) shooting to injure... I don't think I can dumb it down enough for anyone who believes that to understand... The only way I can see to fix that mindset is to make them do Airsoft exercises at typical indoor distances so they see how often they end up disarmed/dead.

Mrs.Cicero

Lone_Wolfe
05-03-2010, 11:02
sawgrass, that's one irony I'd really rather have done without!

Mrs.Cicero
05-03-2010, 11:03
Mrs C, I didn't run into a whole lot of that and when I did they weren't reluctant to overcome that. So many of my groups coming through had at lest one woman that had been attacked, threatened, or hurt before and that was why they were learning to shoot. I would ask them if they would talk about it to the group and then I would talk about how a gun might have changed the outcome if it was the case. Many of my ladies would tell me afterward that they felt empowered by that and learning to handle and use a gun. It always made my day to hear it.

I like that idea. If I ever run a women-only class myself, I'm going to steal it. :wavey:

I used to be more patient with them, but lately I've been repeatedly exposed to the "I could never hurt anyone..." comments - to the point that I'm short-tempered and annoyed when I hear it. It makes me want to scream "If you won't stand up for yourself, why should anyone else?" Does anyone who won't fight back have a moral right to expect others to do so for them? (I am surrounded by lawyers and small children, which makes for odd questions, and odder answers). I expect I need to sit with my long-neglected journal for a few days until I have a polite, rational response again... thanks for the reminder that people can be willing to overcome that response...

Mrs.Cicero

ExxoticOne
05-03-2010, 16:44
ExxOne, Sawgrass, LW...

I have to admit, one of THE most irritating things I hear in nearly every martial arts/self-defense course I've taken/take currently is some woman saying she could never hit/shoot/hurt someone intentionally.

That's what prompted my "intestinal fortitude comment". Some women simply can't hang.

I took a self-defense course with a woman who talked a good game but when it was time to throw down she all but crawled up her own hoo-haa.

If I am in true danger (and cannot retreat) not only will I intentionally hit/shoot/hurt someone...I'll do it in a way that causes severe pain, agony, organ failure or worse.

I'll try and provide some sort of analogy. In golf, before you walk up to the tee box to hit your ball, you cross what is called "the line of decision". In other words, you commit to something before you step up to the plate. If a woman is going to arm herself or take a self-defense class or anything of that sort then they better get "right" in their mind exactly what they are there for.

This ain't Pilates :rofl:

professor gun
05-05-2010, 16:21
I run NRA Basic Pistol classes for women only. Feedback over the years has been consistent that those in the class liked the fact that all students are women and feel more comfortable with the set up.

I have tried very hard to recruit and involve women in this class as instructors and so far have had a lot of frustrations with that. They can choose any section they wish to teach, they can teach it in any way they wish sticking to the basic outline of the NRA Basic Pistol organization. Those that I have recruited from active shooters in our area either have no interest or will participate for a while and lose interest. There are some women who help us on range day (including my wife) and do a lot of one on one teaching with the students; feedback indicates that means a lot more to the students than having a female instructor up in front teaching.

Those of us who run the class put a lot of effort into running it gender neutral.

I will continue trying to recruit more female instructors but in the meantime I think if we avoid the macho stuff and war stories I hear from some other male instructors in this area, the students seem to get a lot out of the class.

Mrs. Tink
05-05-2010, 18:33
My CCW course was all-female with a male and a female instructor. I didn't select the class; my husband gave it to me for Valentine's Day. :hearts:

I enjoyed it for a number of reasons outlined above. There was no bravado among my classmates and the instructors were matter-of-fact and addressed a few issues unique to women.

The other ladies have expressed my opinions well, so I won't bore you with another. Suffice it to say that I would suggest that any woman, even very self-confident ones, could benefit from a ladies-only class.