Moving to the kahr from glock [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Moving to the kahr from glock


intargc
05-02-2010, 09:16
I have recently purchased a Kahr P9. I have been shooting Glocks for a year and train quite often in groups and private training for concealed carry and tactical training. I have always used my Glock 19. I am quite used to Glock and firing the Kahr has proven to be difficult for accurate and quick follow up shots.

I carried the 19 for a while, but after a while it became more of a hassle than I could cope with and given I'm 5'9 and 165 lbs, it prints like a mofo on me. So I went with the Kahr. The Kahr carries wonderfully! However, it is just very difficult to shoot for me. Add the fact that all of my training is done with Glocks, coming back to the Kahr just makes me feel like I'm having to relearn again and again.

For those that train regularly with Glocks and have owned or do own a kahr. Does it get easier as time goes on? Or do most give up and just go with the 26/27 to maintain their platform? I get that if you don't train tactically and regularly, this isn't that big of a deal... But keeping muscle memory for me is a big deal. That, however, is matched with the strong desire to have a firearm that conceals well and is somewhat tolerable.

Any opinions from those in a similar situation are welcome!

Denied
05-02-2010, 10:56
I have a glock 26 and then bought a p9 and lately a pm9. The big difference is the trigger pull. I spent a lot of time dry firing the kahrs, it does two things, smooths the trigger and helps me get used to the longer and heavier pull. After a while I got better but still not as good as the glock. The kahr makes carrying so much easier its worth the time and trouble getting used to it.

JimBianchi
05-02-2010, 11:19
My daily carry is a G26 (with 12rd mags) or a Kahr MK9. I've used both guns in point shooting training (Suarez Classes were excellent). When I used the Kahr, it was more accurate at 7 and 10 and 15 yards than every other gun in class. I was the only one who used a micro gun. (As the instructor put it, "Biggest guy has the smallest gun")

For me, the Kahr trigger is nicer than the GLOCK. It was crap/long/stiff for the first 500rds or so, than after thousands of dry fire drills and another 2K of live ammo, the MK9 is as smooth as I'd want it to be. Long pull, but butter smooth.

My GLOCKs (I also have a G30) have 5K+ rounds down the tube and the triggers seem about the same as when I try the newer guns.

When I practice, I practice with both guns, both hands, draw from concealed, along with shoot and move.

I try and make practice as practical as possible. This helps with muscle memory.

The P9 is on my short list of guns to buy. I shot one in PHX and fell in love, but I prefer the concealment of the MK9.

Give it some time, I believe the P9 will grow on you. I also found that by carrying and shooting only one gun for a year, I became much better with the one gun. (MK9)

I pulled the G26 out and took another shoot-from-concealed class two weeks ago and found the G26 was still excellent. Seems the G26 needs a lot less training to use than the MK9. Also, it's nice to have 13rds (plus a 15rd second mag) when you are in a multi-target environment!

sns3guppy
05-02-2010, 11:26
The Kahr trigger is nice, but before you lay your life on the line for loyalty to Kahr, have you done any extended shooting with one?

The first time one fails to return to battery when you're exchanging shots with someone for your life, will you care about how the trigger feels?

intargc
05-02-2010, 13:47
The Kahr trigger is nice, but before you lay your life on the line for loyalty to Kahr, have you done any extended shooting with one?

The first time one fails to return to battery when you're exchanging shots with someone for your life, will you care about how the trigger feels?

oh, this happened to me a lot in the last class! Which is another reason I'm worried about it all...

A couple of times my thumb accidentally hit the slide lock while firing and caused the slide to not lock back on the last round. It's a thick slide lock, so it seems to happen to me when firing rapidly and under stress. Loading up a new mag and racking the slide caused the first round to nose dive into the feed ramp and forced me to rerack the slide again. Also, during a type 1 malfunction drill, this issue happened.

After the class I looked this up and apparently this is a common issue and Kahr is very retarded about it all. They say that "loading the Kahr should always be performed from a slide locked position." ok, so we all know that's not always possible in tactical situations... The flaw is with their magazine engineering. Apparently ProMag makes Kahr mags that work around this issue and are way more reliable than Kahr mags... Go figure...

Anyway, that was frustrating.

Mr. S
05-02-2010, 18:10
oh, this happened to me a lot in the last class! Which is another reason I'm worried about it all...

A couple of times my thumb accidentally hit the slide lock while firing and caused the slide to not lock back on the last round. It's a thick slide lock, so it seems to happen to me when firing rapidly and under stress. Loading up a new mag and racking the slide caused the first round to nose dive into the feed ramp and forced me to rerack the slide again. Also, during a type 1 malfunction drill, this issue happened.

After the class I looked this up and apparently this is a common issue and Kahr is very retarded about it all. They say that "loading the Kahr should always be performed from a slide locked position." ok, so we all know that's not always possible in tactical situations... The flaw is with their magazine engineering. Apparently ProMag makes Kahr mags that work around this issue and are way more reliable than Kahr mags... Go figure...

Anyway, that was frustrating.

Promags are more reliable than factory Kahr??

My personal experience with promags is they are ok for the range(mine would not feed hollowpoints) but I would never use one in a carry gun.

intargc
05-02-2010, 22:05
Promags are more reliable than factory Kahr??

My personal experience with promags is they are ok for the range(mine would not feed hollowpoints) but I would never use one in a carry gun.

I would normally agree with you here, but, it's a known issue and fact that Kahr magazines are poorly made due to the top round being able to wiggle out very easily and due to forcing the kahr to require you (their words, not mine) to have the slide locked open when inserting a new mag and chambering the first round or risk having it nose dive into the feed ramp.

Kahr has received thousands of complaints about the mag design they have. There are tons of people posting on forums about it and there are YouTube videos about trying to find workarounds for it... Kahr ignores all of this and tells us we should load our pistols the way they tell us to and shut up. ;)

ProMag takes care of both of the issues described above. With that being said, yes, sadly enough, ProMag magazines are more reliable than Kahr's this time around.

PlayboyPenguin
05-02-2010, 22:15
To answer the question presented in the Op we would need to know what part of shooting the Kahr is giving you issues? Is it the trigger pull? The grip? What? :)

gchild00
05-02-2010, 22:45
I have recently purchased a Kahr P9. I have been shooting Glocks for a year and train quite often in groups and private training for concealed carry and tactical training. I have always used my Glock 19. I am quite used to Glock and firing the Kahr has proven to be difficult for accurate and quick follow up shots.

I carried the 19 for a while, but after a while it became more of a hassle than I could cope with and given I'm 5'9 and 165 lbs, it prints like a mofo on me. So I went with the Kahr. The Kahr carries wonderfully! However, it is just very difficult to shoot for me. Add the fact that all of my training is done with Glocks, coming back to the Kahr just makes me feel like I'm having to relearn again and again.

For those that train regularly with Glocks and have owned or do own a kahr. Does it get easier as time goes on? Or do most give up and just go with the 26/27 to maintain their platform? I get that if you don't train tactically and regularly, this isn't that big of a deal... But keeping muscle memory for me is a big deal. That, however, is matched with the strong desire to have a firearm that conceals well and is somewhat tolerable.

Any opinions from those in a similar situation are welcome!

seems like your biggest issue is that you can no longer comfortably carry concealed the glock 19 without it printing. Maybe you should look into a new holster set up. MTAC, Crossbreed super tuck, and Desantis intruder are very good hybrid holsters that are comfortable IWB holsters that works wonders when it comes to concealability. My EDC is a blawkhawk talon flex instructor belt with an MTAC holster. I plan on getting a beltman belt for more formal occassions. You already know the glock 19 is very reliable and muscle memory is a huge advantage if S... hit the fan..Just my opinion

intargc
05-03-2010, 09:19
To answer the question presented in the Op we would need to know what part of shooting the Kahr is giving you issues? Is it the trigger pull? The grip? What? :)

Ah yes... It's mostly the trigger but I also feel as if I don't get a tight enough grip on the Kahr either. The Glock almost forces a tight grip due to it's thicker frame whereas when I come back to the Kahr, I notice my grip is a little weak. It's also the stock sights on the Kahr, but I know I can change those out and may do just that if I decide to keep it.

Switching back and forth between the excessively long pull and reset of the Kahr to the very short pull and reset of the Glock is what is tough for me to grasp. When I shoot the Kahr for a couple of weeks and then come back to the Glock, I find myself releasing the trigger of the Glock too much and not getting good follow up shots. When I shoot the Glock for a couple of weeks and come back to the Kahr, I find myself shooting at 6 o'clock a lot, especially on follow up shots.

My first shot with the Kahr is fine. I can get it dead on target as long as I take my time pulling the trigger (which I don't particularly like, cause I wouldn't do that in a defense situation), and follow up shots are fine as long as they're slow too... but if I try to practice point shooting and double and triple taps, I am always shooting 6 o'clock and I know it's cause of my lack of tolerance for the DAO trigger.

Again, spending time with the Kahr I'm sure would help, but once I do that and then if I have to jump on the Glock, I start shooting the Glock terribly.

Any suggestions on how to mix the two well would help...

PlayboyPenguin
05-03-2010, 12:44
The Kahr trigger is a wonderful thing. I really do think it is the best thing about them. I am one of the few people that think their size is the second best thing about them. I just love that trigger.

The bad thing about a Kahr trigger is it does require some getting used to by most shooters. I found myself taking to it like a duck to water. That is mainly because I was primarily a revolver shooter most of my life. If you have grown up on a diet of semi-autos you will have to adjust.

It does take some time to adjust to the longer pull but once you do you will find yourself wondering why all guns are not like that. You might even find your accuracy increasing at the range since the trigger is so fluid and predictable. It also doesn't hurt that all of my Kahrs test out to be a good bit more accurate from a rest than my Glocks. You might be glad you made the switch solely for that fact if you ever need your gun at a long distance.

As for your grip, do not squeeze so tight. You do not need a death grip on the gun. The gun is designed to stay in your hand as long as you do your part. Squeezing the life out of the gun is not only going to tire your hand but it will effect your accuracy and speed. It will make you twist the gun and make it harder to get the gun back into position.

Squeezing really hard also makes it harder for you to master your trigger pull. It makes it harder to learn exactly the right amount of pressure and makes it harder to reset your finger.

In the end, the stock Kahr will never shoot as fast as a stock Glock. But it just might shoot better for you. In a bad situation I would rather be able to place 6 shots dead center in 3 seconds than I would be able to place 8 shots all over the place in 2 seconds. But it will be up to you as to which gun ends up being the best for you. I personally shoot the Kahr more accurately than a Glock for the factors I mentioned above. Many people have the opposite experience. It will all come down to practice and personal achievement. :)

As this pic shows, the Kahr can do it's part if you practice.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r89/PlayboyPenguin/Targets/PM9target.jpg

intargc
05-03-2010, 14:11
Well, I never said I'm trying to get a death grip on the pistol.. Just tight enough to manage recoil and aim properly...

I can get nice 2-3" groupings with the glock and it was the first pistol I ever shot. It took little time and coaching to get there. With the Kahr, I just feel like it's not happening unless I'm really slow and careful with the trigger pull.

The glock (and other normal semi auto pistols) have a very pronounced trigger break point. You know how much slack to take out. The Kahr is definitely smooth and feels good, but it's not as pronounced. It's smooth all the way through. I feel like that's my issue... I can't determine it's break point so I can take the slack out like in my other pistols.

PlayboyPenguin
05-03-2010, 15:46
Well, I never said I'm trying to get a death grip on the pistol.. Just tight enough to manage recoil and aim properly...

I can get nice 2-3" groupings with the glock and it was the first pistol I ever shot. It took little time and coaching to get there. With the Kahr, I just feel like it's not happening unless I'm really slow and careful with the trigger pull.

The glock (and other normal semi auto pistols) have a very pronounced trigger break point. You know how much slack to take out. The Kahr is definitely smooth and feels good, but it's not as pronounced. It's smooth all the way through. I feel like that's my issue... I can't determine it's break point so I can take the slack out like in my other pistols.
Just keep working with it and you will start to feel the break point very clearly. How much experience do you have with revolvers?

Mr. S
05-03-2010, 18:03
I would normally agree with you here, but, it's a known issue and fact that Kahr magazines are poorly made due to the top round being able to wiggle out very easily and due to forcing the kahr to require you (their words, not mine) to have the slide locked open when inserting a new mag and chambering the first round or risk having it nose dive into the feed ramp.

Kahr has received thousands of complaints about the mag design they have. There are tons of people posting on forums about it and there are YouTube videos about trying to find workarounds for it... Kahr ignores all of this and tells us we should load our pistols the way they tell us to and shut up. ;)

ProMag takes care of both of the issues described above. With that being said, yes, sadly enough, ProMag magazines are more reliable than Kahr's this time around.

Are you going off internet talk or real experience?

My Kahr P9 will chamber a round by "slingshotting" it every time.

My Kahr P9 has never had a failure of any kind ( right around 1000 rounds including the break in period) with factory mags,it failed many times with the Promags,more on hollowpoints than ball.
My PM9 also has been flawless for me for >300 rounds(I bought it used) and it also failed on the promags as well.

If you are trying some for range mags great but I would never recommend anyone use one for carry.

intargc
05-03-2010, 21:34
Just keep working with it and you will start to feel the break point very clearly. How much experience do you have with revolvers?

Absolutely no experience with revolvers. I have only used glock, xd, m&p and 1911

intargc
05-03-2010, 21:39
Are you going off internet talk or real experience?

My Kahr P9 will chamber a round by "slingshotting" it every time.

My Kahr P9 has never had a failure of any kind ( right around 1000 rounds including the break in period) with factory mags,it failed many times with the Promags,more on hollowpoints than ball.
My PM9 also has been flawless for me for >300 rounds(I bought it used) and it also failed on the promags as well.

If you are trying some for range mags great but I would never recommend anyone use one for carry.

I'm going off my personal experience on the first round nose diving into the feedramp regularly when loading from a slide forward situation. Kahr themselves know this is an issue and says that it is not an issue according to them because their manual says you must load the kahr from a slide locked position...

The promag suggestion is definitely Internet talk as I have only started researching how to fix this issue because it caused problems in my last class.

So, half and half I guess.

Youre the first person that I've heard from that hasn't had the nose dive issue...

intargc
05-03-2010, 21:43
I'm definitely dedicated to learn how to shoot the Kahr. I have a class coming up this weekend and I'm leaving my Glock at home. I will use the Kahr through the whole 1,200 round class... Maybe something will "click" during that time.

PlayboyPenguin
05-04-2010, 01:19
Absolutely no experience with revolvers. I have only used glock, xd, m&p and 1911
You might actually benefit from spending some time shooting a wheel gun or two. It will help you learn how to adjust to the Kahr trigger. Having a similar feeling trigger with the visual aid of the hammer helps you learn how to anticipate the trigger break. :)

As for the loading issue. I have never had a problem with Kahr mags and I have never been able to find anyone I trust that has either. If you follow the guns instructions for the first few hundred rounds the first round issue disappears completely. In fact my guns have had the issue disappear much quicker if I actually put some rounds through them. :)

wingsprint
05-04-2010, 04:49
I'm going off my personal experience on the first round nose diving into the feedramp regularly when loading from a slide forward situation. Kahr themselves know this is an issue and says that it is not an issue according to them because their manual says you must load the kahr from a slide locked position...

The promag suggestion is definitely Internet talk as I have only started researching how to fix this issue because it caused problems in my last class.

So, half and half I guess.

Youre the first person that I've heard from that hasn't had the nose dive issue...

Add me to your list of people that have never had this issue. I have owned the gun for years.

intargc
05-04-2010, 08:42
As for the loading issue. I have never had a problem with Kahr mags and I have never been able to find anyone I trust that has either. If you follow the guns instructions for the first few hundred rounds the first round issue disappears completely. In fact my guns have had the issue disappear much quicker if I actually put some rounds through them. :)

So you're saying you had the problem initially but it went away after the breakin period?

PlayboyPenguin
05-04-2010, 10:59
So you're saying you had the problem initially but it went away after the breakin period?

I had an issue of the first round being difficult to chamber if I ignored the manufacturers instruction to use the slide stop to chamber a round. If I tried to slowly follow the slide home it would catch a little. I could still chamber the round but it was not at all smooth. If I did it the way the manufacturer says to do it I had no issues at all. Later I found I could do it either way with no issues.

intargc
05-04-2010, 11:58
I had an issue of the first round being difficult to chamber if I ignored the manufacturers instruction to use the slide stop to chamber a round. If I tried to slowly follow the slide home it would catch a little. I could still chamber the round but it was not at all smooth. If I did it the way the manufacturer says to do it I had no issues at all. Later I found I could do it either way with no issues.

Yeah, that's the problem though... that's a terrible solution to the problem. You can't always guarantee that you will be able to load a new magazine with the slide locked back in a bad situation...

During training, I had two instances where I was moving and shooting and my thumb accidentally hit the slide lock and caused the slide to not lock back on the last round. I had to load a new magazine with the slide forward, rack the slide twice in order to get the round to chamber.

Another instance was when we were working Type 1 malfunctions. After clearing the pistol, we're left with the slide forward but a cleared pistol. Load up the new magazine, rack the slide. I have to rack it twice due to the nose dive of the first round.

If this clears up with time, that's fine with me... but if it's an ongoing issue, it worries me a tad.

sns3guppy
05-04-2010, 12:43
oh, this happened to me a lot in the last class! Which is another reason I'm worried about it all...

Failure to return to battery isn't a slidelock issue; it's a design issue. For some time it was an annoyance in Kahr pistols to me. In most cases, the slide would stop about a millimeter out of battery. One might not notice it at all, if one were focusing properly on the front sight. A squeeze of the trigger and sometimes nothing, sometimes a "click," and the slide would drop into place.

One one occasion, at an indoor range, I didn't notice the slide hadn't returned to battery, and I pressed the trigger. It felt no different, and I was focused on the front sight. The P40 discharged, but sounded very different. The recoil felt different, and I felt an immediate numbness in my hand and burning sensation in my face. The pistol had fired out of battery, with no slide lock time. The slide moved aft under full chamber pressure, blew out the sideplate over the trigger draw bar and blew out down through the mag and mag well. My hand was burned and my face was burned.

At first, Kahr tried to say that it was a double charged round, even though there was no sign of overpressure to the fired case. No flattened primer, no bulged case, no cracking, nothing.

Kahr handguns are neat little handguns, and I've got several in my safe...polymer and steel. The steel handguns have been 100%, whereas all the polymer handguns have been back to Kahr, some several times. Kahr has generally spent a couple of months with them, in one case over seven months, and on two occasions, lost my pistols.

I've got considerable trigger time with revolvers, incidentally, for whatever that's worth. It has no bearing on shooting the Kahr.

As far as the fabled break-in period...I've put several thousand rounds through the Kahrs, without any sign that they've "broken in."

What I have found is a need to replace the slides and barrels several times due to peening of the barrel hood, and frame damage when the retainer spring for the slide stop failed and the slide backed out during firing. Kahr has replaced nearly every part of my handguns during visits, on several occasions, without the problem having been solved...and replacement was necessary due to parts failure. The two biggest failed parts have been slides and barrels, with peening evident on all the Kahr handguns.

Perhaps not enough rounds fired to "break them in." A few thousand more will do it, perhaps?

intargc
05-04-2010, 14:05
Failure to return to battery isn't a slidelock issue; it's a design issue. For some time it was an annoyance in Kahr pistols to me. In most cases, the slide would stop about a millimeter out of battery. One might not notice it at all, if one were focusing properly on the front sight. A squeeze of the trigger and sometimes nothing, sometimes a "click," and the slide would drop into place.

One one occasion, at an indoor range, I didn't notice the slide hadn't returned to battery, and I pressed the trigger. It felt no different, and I was focused on the front sight. The P40 discharged, but sounded very different. The recoil felt different, and I felt an immediate numbness in my hand and burning sensation in my face. The pistol had fired out of battery, with no slide lock time. The slide moved aft under full chamber pressure, blew out the sideplate over the trigger draw bar and blew out down through the mag and mag well. My hand was burned and my face was burned.

At first, Kahr tried to say that it was a double charged round, even though there was no sign of overpressure to the fired case. No flattened primer, no bulged case, no cracking, nothing.

Kahr handguns are neat little handguns, and I've got several in my safe...polymer and steel. The steel handguns have been 100%, whereas all the polymer handguns have been back to Kahr, some several times. Kahr has generally spent a couple of months with them, in one case over seven months, and on two occasions, lost my pistols.

I've got considerable trigger time with revolvers, incidentally, for whatever that's worth. It has no bearing on shooting the Kahr.

As far as the fabled break-in period...I've put several thousand rounds through the Kahrs, without any sign that they've "broken in."

What I have found is a need to replace the slides and barrels several times due to peening of the barrel hood, and frame damage when the retainer spring for the slide stop failed and the slide backed out during firing. Kahr has replaced nearly every part of my handguns during visits, on several occasions, without the problem having been solved...and replacement was necessary due to parts failure. The two biggest failed parts have been slides and barrels, with peening evident on all the Kahr handguns.

Perhaps not enough rounds fired to "break them in." A few thousand more will do it, perhaps?

That's quite a story. I've actually heard a lot of stories similar to this with other Kahr's.

Are your polymer ones the CW line?

PlayboyPenguin
05-04-2010, 15:47
Yeah, that's the problem though... that's a terrible solution to the problem. You can't always guarantee that you will be able to load a new magazine with the slide locked back in a bad situation...

During training, I had two instances where I was moving and shooting and my thumb accidentally hit the slide lock and caused the slide to not lock back on the last round. I had to load a new magazine with the slide forward, rack the slide twice in order to get the round to chamber.

Another instance was when we were working Type 1 malfunctions. After clearing the pistol, we're left with the slide forward but a cleared pistol. Load up the new magazine, rack the slide. I have to rack it twice due to the nose dive of the first round.

If this clears up with time, that's fine with me... but if it's an ongoing issue, it worries me a tad.
That would be a grip issue and not a gun malfunction. Also, I would not have to rack the slide twice. I would simply pull it fully to the rear and slingshot it home. There is no need to follow the slide.

intargc
05-04-2010, 16:31
That would be a grip issue and not a gun malfunction. Also, I would not have to rack the slide twice. I would simply pull it fully to the rear and slingshot it home. There is no need to follow the slide.

Either you misunderstand what I'm saying, or we're talking about two completely different things...

It has nothing to do with grip. The first round nose dives into the feed ramp. You could put the thing in a vice and it's going to do it due to the top round of the magazine pointing downward. You'd have to have one incredibly weak grip in order to consider that is the cause of the problem. I have a very firm and strong grip and can rack the slide quite well. I never ride the slide. When I rack, I push back fast and hard and my hand keeps traveling back while the slide moves forward. My hand never rides back forward with the slide... Even Glock's will cause a misfeeding when you do that. I've learned my lesson with riding the slide..

When the slide is forward, loading up a 7-8 round magazine forces the top round to push downward in the magazine. This causes the initial issue. When you rack the slide, it starts to load the first round, but it is already pushing downward, so it nose dives into the feed ramp.

You can actually cause it to feed correctly every time if you take an 8 round magazine and load it up with only 6 rounds. Then, the first round doesn't push down into the mag... It loads successfully every time if you do that.

Kahr themselves have recognized that this is an issue... They have said that in order to avoid it you have to load the magazine from a slide locked position. I'm not making this stuff up... haha Also, you can google "Kahr first round" and see how many people have the same issue... It's even talked about in the reviews on the Kahr site and how you're supposed to load from slide lock to avoid it.

If your pistol doesn't do it, I'd consider yourself lucky.

PlayboyPenguin
05-04-2010, 20:17
Either you misunderstand what I'm saying, or we're talking about two completely different things...

It has nothing to do with grip. The first round nose dives into the feed ramp. You could put the thing in a vice and it's going to do it due to the top round of the magazine pointing downward. You'd have to have one incredibly weak grip in order to consider that is the cause of the problem. I have a very firm and strong grip and can rack the slide quite well. I never ride the slide. When I rack, I push back fast and hard and my hand keeps traveling back while the slide moves forward. My hand never rides back forward with the slide... Even Glock's will cause a misfeeding when you do that. I've learned my lesson with riding the slide..

When the slide is forward, loading up a 7-8 round magazine forces the top round to push downward in the magazine. This causes the initial issue. When you rack the slide, it starts to load the first round, but it is already pushing downward, so it nose dives into the feed ramp.

You can actually cause it to feed correctly every time if you take an 8 round magazine and load it up with only 6 rounds. Then, the first round doesn't push down into the mag... It loads successfully every time if you do that.

Kahr themselves have recognized that this is an issue... They have said that in order to avoid it you have to load the magazine from a slide locked position. I'm not making this stuff up... haha Also, you can google "Kahr first round" and see how many people have the same issue... It's even talked about in the reviews on the Kahr site and how you're supposed to load from slide lock to avoid it.

If your pistol doesn't do it, I'd consider yourself lucky.
You said the reason you would not be able to use the recommended method was because you hit the slide stop and caused the gun to not lock back when empty. That is a grip issue not a malfunction. And even when you load a fully loaded mag into a gun with the slide forward the round will chamber if you pull the slide fully to the read and let if slingshot home. I have never seen one that will not with a little extra effort. It only becomes a real issue if you weakly rack and follow it home instead of allowing it to reach a fully to the rear position. This is also only necessary during the recommended break in period and does not last long.

intargc
05-05-2010, 11:38
You said the reason you would not be able to use the recommended method was because you hit the slide stop and caused the gun to not lock back when empty. That is a grip issue not a malfunction. And even when you load a fully loaded mag into a gun with the slide forward the round will chamber if you pull the slide fully to the read and let if slingshot home. I have never seen one that will not with a little extra effort. It only becomes a real issue if you weakly rack and follow it home instead of allowing it to reach a fully to the rear position. This is also only necessary during the recommended break in period and does not last long.

Oh, then it was a misunderstanding.

Yes, I agree, that is a grip issue on hitting the slide lock lever... However, my point is you can't guarantee this won't happen in a stressful situation. 99.9% of the time I do not hit the slide lock. But when put under a timer and stress in the class, I did since my grip wasn't 100% perfect.

Being that you can't guarantee a perfect grip every time and there is quite the possibility of the slide lock being tapped by the supporting thumb, you may in fact have an issue upon reloading the mags.

Also, like I said, in a type 1 malfunction clearing, you slide is going to be forward as well... Same issue arises here.

I can only assure you that I rack the heck out of the Kahr slide. If I ride the slide even on my Glock, there is a feed issue... It's possible under stress that I'm not paying attention and ride the slide a little or something... I'll give you that. But during practicing at home with dummy rounds, I have made it happen fairly regularly.

Maybe after this magical break in period, it will perform as desired.

the perfesser
05-05-2010, 20:11
A lot of long posts going back and forth. I want to return to intargc's initial points and the gist of the discussion:

(1) Kahr says load only from slidelock.
(2) Some people can load Kahrs regularly and reliably by sling-shotting the slide. Others -- I among them -- cannot with regularity.
(3) For those others, this will not be a problem if they (a) carry condition 1 and (b) do not experience a malfunction or operator's error which requires clearing a loaded round/case and subsequently have the slide forward before chambering a new round.

In the suggested bad scenario, it is a slight comfort that the reliability of successfully loading through slingshotting, in my experience, increases as the round count in the mag decreases. But intargc's point is well-taken......

sns3guppy
05-06-2010, 18:17
Are your polymer ones the CW line?

No, I don't own any of the CW's. The polymer ones are all P40's.

Don't get me wrong. I really like Kahrs. Great trigger, very small, lightweight, ergonomic package. Easy to control in 9mm or .40. It's the reliability issue that concerns me.

The failure to return to battery issue is most evident with a full magazine. It's the upward pressure on the slide with the magazine full that causes the right rear rail to hang up slightly as the slide moves nearly into battery. This prevents a proper lockup, and the weapon can fire without any lock time, and the slide moves aft opening the breach under full chamber pressure. If, that is, the weapon fires at all. This is frustrating, because the weapon may fire consistently for a time, and then fail completely.

In my particular case, it's definitely NOT a grip issue.

kgwld1
05-11-2010, 19:53
My first gun was a Kahr pm9 and a keltec p3at and I became very profecient with these triggers and then the Glock sickness hit. I think I shoot well because of learning on the long DOA trigger.

Keep practicing and tons of dry fire it will get easier.

PlayboyPenguin
05-11-2010, 20:02
My first gun was a Kahr pm9 and a keltec p3at and I became very profecient with these triggers and then the Glock sickness hit. I think I shoot well because of learning on the long DOA trigger.

Keep practicing and tons of dry fire it will get easier.
Your Kahr had a "Dead On Arrival" trigger??? :whistling:

kgwld1
05-11-2010, 20:11
oops tough to see on my cell phone. DAO there you go

the perfesser
05-12-2010, 16:28
What? You guys have never heard of my patented Double-Only-Action trigger? Such sheltered lives!....<grin>......

The Wire Source
05-12-2010, 23:37
I'm going off my personal experience on the first round nose diving into the feedramp regularly when loading from a slide forward situation. Kahr themselves know this is an issue and says that it is not an issue according to them because their manual says you must load the kahr from a slide locked position...

The promag suggestion is definitely Internet talk as I have only started researching how to fix this issue because it caused problems in my last class.

So, half and half I guess.

Youre the first person that I've heard from that hasn't had the nose dive issue...
Perhaps it is the way I clean my gun or the fact that I polished the barrel, including feedramp, the magazines, and trigger components. I have only fired 250 rounds through my MK9. My first range trip I shot 50 rounds, loading the proper way. Every since, I have been "slingshotting" with both 6/7 round magazines, both fully filled. I did the first polishing job after the first 50 rounds, may be a contributing factor.

rargos
05-13-2010, 17:17
For those that train regularly with Glocks and have owned or do own a kahr. Does it get easier as time goes on? Or do most give up and just go with the 26/27 to maintain their platform? I get that if you don't train tactically and regularly, this isn't that big of a deal... But keeping muscle memory for me is a big deal. That, however, is matched with the strong desire to have a firearm that conceals well and is somewhat tolerable.

Any opinions from those in a similar situation are welcome!

I carry either a G26 or Kahr MK9, depending on what I'm wearing : the Kahr is MUCH easier to conceal than the G26, so it tends to get carried more often. I also practice regularly with both during each trip to the range.

They have both been completely reliable since day one, both have about the same amount of recoil (very manageable : not unpleasant to shoot at all). I think the Kahr has the better trigger and fits my hand a little better (smaller hands), but I find the G26 is a more natural shooter and I like 10+1 more than 6+1.

I don't have a problem switching between them : I've shot a lot of different guns over the last few decades and I just concentrate on the fundamentals when I practice : good sight picture, good grip, good trigger control, etc. I actually think it helps to practice with different firearms to avoid customizing your technique to a particular firearm.

I might feel differently if I were a target/competitive shooter, but for plinking and defence practice, I'm happy if I can keep them in a reasonable group out to 25 yards.

Hope that helps. They're both great guns.

bean66
05-22-2010, 14:15
I've never shot a glock so cant really comment on the glock trigger vs kahr debate.
I can say that I do like the kahr trigger and that the surprise of the round being touched off lends itself to its accuracy for me.

One thing that helped me was to increase my left hand grip pressure and decrease the right some. That way it frees up your trigger finger for a nice smooth stroke.

As to the slide issues, I've never had any issue with a round not feeding. I consistently use the Slingshot method while practicing. During one session, I accidentally depressed the mag release. Causing the next shot to be just click, simple tap rack ready drill.

Shooting a PM9.

user
05-23-2010, 04:53
Aside from the way a trigger works on a DAO semiauto compared to a SA/DA, there are a couple of other significant differences between the Glock and the Kahr.

First, the Glock's recoil is felt about a half inch lower than on (I think) any other gun, because of how the barrel is mounted. That affects how easily one might control the gun while firing, and how easily one might reacquire a target. It tends to thrust straight back, rather than tipping up. So the Glock afficianado has to get used to the way other guns work, to avoid limp-wristing and loss of control. I don't mean to suggest that all Glock users are pansies, I didn't say that. It's just that the Glock has been designed to be easier to shoot.

The second thing is that the Glock is designed to be "sloppy-fit", so that one might, in the course of apprehending drug runners at two a.m. in the salt marshes, drop his gun in the muck, pick it up, and fire it without having it explode in his hand. Or take it to Iraq, get it full of sand, shake it out a bit, and shoot it. That kind of abuse requires very loose tolerances. The Kahr is CNC machined to very precise tolerances, which is why there's a break-in required. You cannot drop it in the muck or sand and expect it to work properly. On the other hand, once you learn to fire it properly, you can consistently put bullets through the same hole at seven yards with it. It is designed to be as accurate as a revolver, unlike Sigs and Glocks which only hope to produce "groups".

intargc
06-07-2010, 14:39
I guess I should comment on this since it has been a while...

I still own the Kahr currently and have been carrying it lately. I have started to really like this little pistol. I will say, after shooting 500 or so rounds, the sling-shot issue isn't as big of a problem, but I do in fact still have a nose dive issue every now and then and it still bothers me. However, it seems to have worked itself out a bit.

As for the trigger, I have gotten way more used to it. I actually really like it. However, I still do not like switching back and forth between the Glock and the Kahr for multiple reasons:

1) Trigger. While I can shoot the Kahr and the Glock just fine, if I have been shooting the Kahr regularly and then pick up the Glock, I have to reset muscle memory. Considering I use the higher capacity Glock for most of my classes and even IDPA, this bugs the crap out of me for some reason. Maybe I'm just mental... However, I find myself over releasing the Glock trigger and not releasing to the reset point.

2) Grip angle. This one is really funny to me because I always thought that people who discussed the grip angle of the Glock being odd was always just being picky. However, I have now experienced what they mean. While using the Kahr and presenting it from position 2 in a 4 point draw, the Kahr sights are leveled and right on target. When I do this with the Glock after consistent use of the Kahr, the Glock's front sight is pointed upward. This happened to me in IDPA the other day. I kept shooting high. Now, this isn't an issue if I continuously train with the Glock. Muscle memory takes over and I know to angle my wrist down a bit upon presentation... but switching between the two causes issues as I have to sort of retrain myself each time I switch and regather lost muscle memory.

I'm always back and forth between this Kahr and the Glock. The things I love about the Kahr are of course how thin it is and the single stack mags. I love carrying around an extra 8 round single stack mag in my pocket as opposed to the thick double stack Glock mags. I love the trigger of the Kahr when I have had consistent use with it. I love how light it is.

The things I don't like about the Kahr are that due to its thinness, I never feel like I have a good solid grip on it, even when I do. It's weird, but true... Obviously a mental thing. The mags doesn't hold the top round in place very well. By the end of the day, I may have 1 or 2 loose rounds in my pocket. The lack of consistency with sling shotting the first round and the trigger isn't consistent with my Glock.

I have honestly been debating getting a Sig with DAK (or maybe the P250 in DAO?) for my higher capacity pistol so that I can have a trigger and grip that is more similar to the Kahr. However, the Sig DAK and DAO are VERY long trigger pulls, where as the Kahr is much shorter (albeit longer than a Glock or M&P).

I have also been debating just using the Kahr for fun shooting every now and then and trigger practice and carrying and shooting the Glock regularly for IDPA and classes. Or, maybe the M&P (great pistol).

I'm just trying to find a good level of consistency so that I don't have to reset muscle memory every time I want to switch up for capacity reasons..

Roger G23
06-08-2010, 18:38
oh my GOD!!!! I BETTER JUST STICK WITH MY GLOCK 27!

FLSlim
06-08-2010, 19:37
I fire a G23 & CW9 during almost every range session. The trigger pulls are so much different that I need to shoot both weapons often to keep a "feel" for them. I carry one or the other; prefer the G23 because of capacity, but there are times that the size of the Kahr makes it the weapon I need to carry. Anyhow, no function issues with the CW9 after several thousand rounds and, as to the original question, adjusting to shooting the Kahr, for me, was just a matter of putting enough rounds down range.
Good luck with your decision.

jhayesvw
07-03-2010, 16:10
i sold my Glock 26 a few weeks ago and picked up a CW9.
i love it.
this cw9 is lighter than the glock and much thinner.
i picked up a new hoster (same exact type as the glock one i had) and it conceals better.

i would like the extra 3 rounds that the glock held, but not at the expense of concealability.

ive put alot of rounds downrange and its been flawless except 1 FTF from slide forward when swapping to a new mag.