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Don Sarkisian
05-06-2010, 17:11
For several years I have reloaded;.308,22-250;.223,.45ACP;44 Rem.Mag and 38 special with Redding dies and an RCBS Rockchucker press.But this 9MM stuff is different.My once fired brass comes from my G17 Gen3 and has no sigificant buldge with factory barrel.
One of the 1st lessions I learned the hard way is not to bell case mouths or crimp them.Doing both of these operations on Federal or Winchester brass I am able with sufficient hand pressure force 115 grain XTP's further into the case.Eliminating both operations I am absolutely unable to force bullets further into the case.The only way I could accomplish any reasonable degree of set back was to lighty hammer on the back of the case with a rubber hammer (no primer).
The result of avoiding these two operations must provide greater case neck tension on that portion of the seated bullet.
I went cheapo route on the 9MM dies to start and was ready to can them and purchase a set of Reddings because of the set back I was finding at first.I gave the Lee's a second chance and threw away the expander die and eliminated the taper crimp and no set back.
I don't feel I have found anything new.

Colorado4Wheel
05-06-2010, 17:30
^^^^^^^^^^

Introducing Mr. Road Less Traveled.

;)

You sure seem to have found a way to make something simple very hard. If your getting setback with a Lee sizers send it back. It's diffective or your doing something else wrong.

Don Sarkisian
05-06-2010, 17:42
The Lee sizer is indeed doing its job perfectly according to all dimensions recorded B4 sizing,after sizing and bullet seating.I am convinced that case neck flaring and crimping was loosing case neck tension.While not a Lee fan I can load acceptable 9MM ammo using the Lee sizer and seater I have as verified using the case gauge,the Glock barrel and caliper measurements.Lee's are not Redding's but I cannot condem then for the job they do providing I do what is correct.

IndyGunFreak
05-06-2010, 18:04
The Lee sizer is indeed doing its job perfectly according to all dimensions recorded B4 sizing,after sizing and bullet seating.I am convinced that case neck flaring and crimping was loosing case neck tension.While not a Lee fan I can load acceptable 9MM ammo using the Lee sizer and seater I have as verified using the case gauge,the Glock barrel and caliper measurements.Lee's are not Redding's but I cannot condem then for the job they do providing I do what is correct.

I use Lee dies almost exclusively(including 9mm), and have no problem w/ the expander die and the FCD.

Have you shot these loads yet?

IGF

XDRoX
05-06-2010, 18:11
I am convinced that case neck flaring and crimping was loosing case neck tension.

If you think this was the fault of Lee Dies, I don't understand why you don't think other brands would not cause this as well:dunno:
Could it be that you were over flaring and under crimping?

IndyGunFreak
05-06-2010, 18:19
Could it be that you were over flaring and under crimping?

That was kinda my thought.

IGF

D. Manley
05-06-2010, 18:47
For several years I have reloaded;.308,22-250;.223,.45ACP;44 Rem.Mag and 38 special with Redding dies and an RCBS Rockchucker press.But this 9MM stuff is different.My once fired brass comes from my G17 Gen3 and has no sigificant buldge with factory barrel.
One of the 1st lessions I learned the hard way is not to bell case mouths or crimp them.Doing both of these operations on Federal or Winchester brass I am able with sufficient hand pressure force 115 grain XTP's further into the case.Eliminating both operations I am absolutely unable to force bullets further into the case.The only way I could accomplish any reasonable degree of set back was to lighty hammer on the back of the case with a rubber hammer (no primer).
The result of avoiding these two operations must provide greater case neck tension on that portion of the seated bullet.
I went cheapo route on the 9MM dies to start and was ready to can them and purchase a set of Reddings because of the set back I was finding at first.I gave the Lee's a second chance and threw away the expander die and eliminated the taper crimp and no set back.
I don't feel I have found anything new.

To be to the point, something's wrong. Expanding the case mouth and/or, crimping should not impact your case tension. If you want to fight through the load process by skipping the expanding/crimping steps by all means, have at it. That said, its a lot easier and results are equally good when the dies are used as designed. You either have a defective or wrong expander or oversized resizing die -or- you have something improperly adjusted that is creating the lack of case tension.

Don Sarkisian
05-06-2010, 18:51
I have both over and under flaired and crimped.And yes I have fired these loads.It seems there are others on this and other forums that avoid flairing and crimping when loading 9MM using jacketed bullets having a base radius.And with success.

Colorado4Wheel
05-06-2010, 18:58
The Lee sizer is indeed doing its job perfectly according to all dimensions recorded B4 sizing,after sizing and bullet seating.I am convinced that case neck flaring and crimping was loosing case neck tension.While not a Lee fan I can load acceptable 9MM ammo using the Lee sizer and seater I have as verified using the case gauge,the Glock barrel and caliper measurements.Lee's are not Redding's but I cannot condem then for the job they do providing I do what is correct.

Thats just impossible. The sizing die creates the neck tension for the bullet and prevents setback. So if it's working right (and your doing the other stuff right) you will not have setback issues. So you need to look at the process and find out whats not working right.

Don Sarkisian
05-06-2010, 19:31
I guess I should not have posted this issue since it seems its impossible.

Thanks,
Don

IndyGunFreak
05-06-2010, 19:42
I guess I should not have posted this issue since it seems its impossible.

Thanks,
Don

I don't think it's impossible, I think there is something else that's FUBAR in your process, and is making you experience this. You need to look at your process, adjustments, etc.

I read a lot of other reloading forums, and rarely see someone advocate not using a flaring die. Occasionally, yes, but FAR from the majority.

IGF

dudel
05-06-2010, 19:43
I guess I should not have posted this issue since it seems its impossible.

Thanks,
Don

Exactly what is imposible? Lots of people load 9mm, so it's not impossible.

Colorado4Wheel
05-06-2010, 19:52
I guess I should not have posted this issue since it seems its impossible.

Thanks,
Don

It's only impossible if you choose to not re-examine your process and current beliefs. Something does not add up. You just need to examine each step. IF like you say the sizer is sizing small enough to prevent setback then that leaves over expanding or over crimping. So it's not impossible, it's actually rather simple.

Edit: I got the "impossible" pun. Yes, it's impossible for the sizer to work, for you to flare a small amount and crimp to just remove the flare and still have setback issues. One of those process has to be wrong.

Colorado4Wheel
05-06-2010, 19:56
Also, check your seating die. Back it out a extra 1/2 turn to be sure it's not crimping and ruining case tension. Are you seating and crimping at the same time?

Don Sarkisian
05-06-2010, 20:34
Also, check your seating die. Back it out a extra 1/2 turn to be sure it's not crimping and ruining case tension. Are you seating and crimping at the same time?

I am not crimping these loads.My Lee 9MM seating die has its lock ring fixed well above case rim and locktighted in place with 272 high strength. I could not tell you how many thousand rounds of .45ACP I loaded and shot through 1911's,an XD and a Glock with no crimp and no set back.Now if one is loading lead then absolutely gotta flair and crimp.But you can also slighty over crimp on lead and loose hoop tension on the bullet also.

Just a 73 year ole dummy trying to do the best he can.

Thanks all for your input.

XDRoX
05-06-2010, 20:38
Is it possible that you got a bad batch of bullets? Smaller than they should be?

Don Sarkisian
05-06-2010, 20:41
Is it possible that you got a bad batch of bullets? Smaller than they should be?

They are Hornady 115 Grain XTP's and measure consistantly at 0.355"

Thanks,
Don

Colorado4Wheel
05-06-2010, 20:49
I am not crimping these loads.My Lee 9MM seating die has its lock ring fixed well above case rim and locktighted in place with 272 high strength. I could not tell you how many thousand rounds of .45ACP I loaded and shot through 1911's,an XD and a Glock with no crimp and no set back.Now if one is loading lead then absolutely gotta flair and crimp.But you can also slighty over crimp on lead and loose hoop tension on the bullet also.

Just a 73 year ole dummy trying to do the best he can.

Thanks all for your input.

Your not following what I am saying. Crimp does not prevent setback. What I am saying is if you have setback something is wrong with your sizer, or some other part of the process. It's that basic. Your unwilling to look at what those things can/could be so that kinda leaves your stuck with doing things the only way you know how I guess.

sdrnavy
05-06-2010, 20:57
I have lee dies, I never have to expand the case mouth. i have never had a problem. But I never load lead ! I only load FMJ. The only time that my Glock 21 has failed me, it is when i have loaded lead. I usually load "Frontier" CMJ bullets, they load very easily and cost the same as lead. They shoot as good as the Winchester FMJ that I have loaded.

Don Sarkisian
05-06-2010, 21:03
Your not following what I am saying. Crimp does not prevent setback. What I am saying is if you have setback something is wrong with your sizer, or some other part of the process. It's that basic. Your unwilling to look at what those things can/could be so that kinda leaves your stuck with doing things the only way you know how I guess.

Sir,nothing is wrong with the Lee sizer.My unflaired and uncrimpd loads cannot be set back by hand and I mean as hard as I can push.I can do it with a small rubber hammer.I can also get 0.002" to 0.005" set back by slingshot chambering up to six times.Many factory loads won't stand up to that.As soon as I get Mom out of her part "D" donut hole I will spend the $100 bucks on a set of Reddings but I will betcha ya that I throw away their flaring dye also.You don't needem with a good single stage set up and a sizing die of any make that does what its supposed to do.Now if I was loading with a progressive like a Dillon (had one-gave it away) then flair and crimp would be a must.

Did I mention that I hand chamfer the inside of my cases.Don't think I did.

Best,
Don

Colorado4Wheel
05-06-2010, 21:17
Answer this simple question.

Why does the bullet have setback issues after you flare and crimp?

No reason for those simple operations to cause any issues with setback. Why do you throw away all your flare dies when 99.9% of us have no problems with flaring and deflaring a case and maintaining good bullet tension.

I said the same basic thing a while back. If your sizer is good, then something else is causing the problem. And its not the die, its the setup.

GioaJack
05-07-2010, 05:56
If you can stand on your head wearing nothing but a jock strap and a 'kiss me I'm Italian' button and shoot X's all day long why do you need to shoot like everyone else?

If you get 100% performance from your loads, (function, reliability, accuracy, no setback and safe pressures), without flaring and crimping why do you need to change that system?

Kinda like giving back a winning lottery ticket because you didn't follow the rules exactly by filling in the bubbles with a number 2 pencil.

Don't listen to me though, I'm the village idiot and there's a reward for anyone who keeps me from sneaking back in. :whistling:


Jack

Colorado4Wheel
05-07-2010, 07:16
I agree, if it works for you then why change it. But, don't ber suprised when people go :dunno: especially when you say

I went cheapo route on the 9MM dies to start and was ready to can them and purchase a set of Reddings because of the set back I was finding at first.I gave the Lee's a second chance and threw away the expander die and eliminated the taper crimp and no set back.
I don't feel I have found anything new.

It just makes it sound like this is normal in some way.

Don Sarkisian
05-07-2010, 07:46
Bottom line is that two single stage reloading operations are eliminated when reloading jacketed bullets and produce excellent results.Brass life will be better, ammo passes gauge and barrel insertion tests and set back resistance is equal or better as compared to better factory ammo.Now being specific,this works well for me with Federal and Winchester brass.This same approach did not work well with Magtech brass (Brazilian) with its different wall thickness and possibly may not with other brands.

As I may have mentioned before,I arrived at this same proceedure after a time with .45ACP Win.brass and shot those jacketed reloads for years without belling or crimping case necks.

unclebob
05-07-2010, 08:01
All I can say is. :deadhorse: :brickwall:

fredj338
05-07-2010, 09:07
To be to the point, something's wrong. Expanding the case mouth and/or, crimping should not impact your case tension. If you want to fight through the load process by skipping the expanding/crimping steps by all means, have at it. That said, its a lot easier and results are equally good when the dies are used as designed. You either have a defective or wrong expander or oversized resizing die -or- you have something improperly adjusted that is creating the lack of case tension.
I agree, the OP would have to be one of the first to be able to produce 100% reliable semiauto ammo w/ no crimp.:upeyes: Yes, over crimping can cause loss of neck tension, so can an expander that is oversise. Lee is probably the worst for epanders oversize & sizing dies out of spec. IMO, one reason they "invented" the LFCD. Throw in poor technique, like over crimping, & you'll get setback.
Glad it's working for you, but I'll stick w/ the expander ball, 0.004"-0.005" under bullet size, & a good taper crimp for all my semiauto needs. It's only been working for me now for some 30+yrs & way more ammo than I can count anymore.:whistling:

Don Sarkisian
05-07-2010, 19:11
One final post regarding this issue:
I agree with all suggestions made and they are appreciated.But let me leave you with a question to ponder.First be aware that my preferred jacketed bullet is Hornady XTP and that I load only on single stage equipment.I full length size with the Lee die and seat with the Lee die with no case bell or taper crimp.And by the way when I purchase my Redding dies that same proceedure will be followed.As part of my case prep.I do lightly chamfer the inside of the case by hand with an RCBS countersink.I get no bullet shaving during seating,no runout,perfect coke bottle loads,0.376" as measured on the case exterior at the coke bottle buldge and very high resistance to set back.I know its different and not by the rules and I am not attempting or suggesting anyone here try it.Now accepting that this is true my question is why I should re-introduce any amount of case belling or crimp to potentially effect the high degree of case hoop stress on the bullet that is achieved.

Best,
Don

HAMMERHEAD
05-07-2010, 19:36
One of the 1st lessions I learned the hard way is not to bell case mouths or crimp them.Doing both of these operations on Federal or Winchester brass I am able with sufficient hand pressure force 115 grain XTP's further into the case.Eliminating both operations I am absolutely unable to force bullets further into the case.

That's how I do it as well, .38 Super too. Not only does it eliminate bullet set back, but it should lengthen the life of the brass too. I use just two dies for the 9mm and .38 Super. Lee sizers and Redding Competition seaters. I think the competition seating dies really helps maintain bullet alignment without belling the cases.

FWIW, I like to make up dummy rounds (no primer or powder) for every load I make and cycle them from a magazine into the gun at least 5 times, then re-measure COL to test for set back.

BTW, my ammo has been 100 reliable since I started doing it this way a couple of years ago.

For serious use ammo I like to check them with max cartridge gauges, but so far not one issue.

Don Sarkisian
05-07-2010, 20:16
Hammerhead,thanks for your response.I agree with you and I think you are 100% correct on the Redding seater.I also will use the slingshot method of loading test ammo looking for setback.I am happy to hear that the approach is not new and I am not alone in the world.

Best,
Don

Colorado4Wheel
05-07-2010, 20:18
My 9mm stuff is flared and deflared. It's not crimped. So the only thing holding the bullet is the sizier. Nothing at all wrong with that. For some reason he is getting setback when he flares and crimps. It's been a while since I have used a Lee expander. I remember them being very short and not extending into the case very far. No way just a little flare is going to ruin the case tension when the sizer is producing nice "coke bottle" shaped ammo. Impossible (something is wrong but thats kind of obvious). If the sizers sizes to the point of making a coke bottle shape the case will still have a ton of tension from the part the expander did not touch. I think he is overcrimping. I wonder if he is crimping with the bullet seater or a seperate crimp die. Either way, he's right, you don't need to flare or crimp (if you don't flare). It saves some steps on a single stage. IF your bullets can be seated straight then why add the work. I couldn't do it with the bullets I have used but maybe on a single stage it's a little easier. I got his intention from the first post. Thats why I called him "Mr road less traveled". Thats what he is doing, taking the road less traveled. I stil don't understand why he can't get his flare and crimp to work right. But thats not important. He doesn't care so why should I, he's happy doing it the way he is doing it.

HAMMERHEAD
05-07-2010, 20:30
Hammerhead,thanks for your response.I agree with you and I think you are 100% correct on the Redding seater.I also will use the slingshot method of loading test ammo looking for setback.I am happy to hear that the approach is not new and I am not alone in the world.

Best,
Don

Hang in there Don and don't let the nay sayers sway you. I discovered this approach by accident loading the .38 Super. Mine has a steep feed ramp (wall?) and I was getting a little set back, especially with nickel plated brass.
I was experimenting with minimum flaring and found a setting that gave no set back. Later I discovered that I wasn't flaring at all. No flare, so why crimp? Accuracy was less than stellar with the Lee seater die though, mostly because it's hard to hold the bullet just so. The Redding competition dies take care of that, and now my ammo is better than anything I can buy.

To be honest I never had set back with 9mm, but the method seems superior to flaring/removing flare/crimping.

People used horse and buggies for years and scoffed at the first automobiles, it doesn't mean Henry Ford was a fool.

Don Sarkisian
05-08-2010, 06:20
Hammerhead,when I decided to try loading 9MM even though I knew there was not much if any money to be saved,I decided to go the chepo route with initial die purchase and bought the Lee dies rather than Redding which is what I always bought in the past for other pistol and rifle calipers.

You are right about the Redding seater die especially regarding its bullet alignment ability during seating.Ordered one last night.As you have learned the Lee sizer does its job quite well as evidenced by the loaded round dimensions I cited in my last post so like you I will stick with that and continue the two die approach.I follow the same approach in .45ACP.

Best,
Don