231 vs WSF vs WST [Archive] - Glock Talk

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XDRoX
05-06-2010, 22:22
I only have experience with WST.
Would you guys mind comparing the other two to WST so I can get an idea of how they will be in 9mm.

I want to experiment with another powder and I think I have narrowed it down to 231 or WSF.
A brief breakdown or description of each would be awesome so I can easily see the differences between them. Things like burn rate, whether they like light/medium/hot loads. Any thoughts/likes/dislikes you have regarding them.

Thanks

shepheard
05-06-2010, 22:34
Where they sit on the burn rate chart I'm not sure. 231 is an excellent powder to use for just about any hand guns, except full mag hot loads. I have used it in 9mm,40,45 and 357. In 9mm I have used 4.4gr with a 124fmj (nice plincking round) In 357 I believe I was loading around 6.5 with a 158jhp, again a nice smooth shooting target load. I can't recall what my charge was for the others but I find 231 to be a great powder for all my target shooting needs. For hot loads there are better powders to use but for paper punching it's a great powder.

MinervaDoe
05-06-2010, 22:44
:popcorn:

fredj338
05-07-2010, 00:30
W231 is slightly slower than WST, WSF slightly slower than W231. If you are happy w/ WST for light to std. vel.. then going to W231 will get you nothing but more soot (it is a bit dirty compared to WST). WSF is a great powder for std vel to +P loads in most service rounds, my fav 40s&w powder, works great in 9mm as well, but best above midrange load levels. All are spherical powders that meter well. It's not wise to try & tell the diff on appearance alone.

XDRoX
05-07-2010, 07:50
W231 is slightly slower than WST, WSF slightly slower than W231. If you are happy w/ WST for light to std. vel.. then going to W231 will get you nothing but more soot (it is a bit dirty compared to WST). WSF is a great powder for std vel to +P loads in most service rounds, my fav 40s&w powder, works great in 9mm as well, but best above midrange load levels. All are spherical powders that meter well. It's not wise to try & tell the diff on appearance alone.

Thanks Fred, good info. 231 is practically impossible to get now, but it sounds like it can't hurt to pick up a pound of WSF to mess around with. WST is great for light to medium loads, but not the best for hot loads. Looks like I can use WSF for some higher velocities.

I just found these descriptions in the ABC's:
231-The fastest burning of the Win powders, it is for handguns and is best used for light to medium target loads. It produces excellent accuracy in 9mm, 38spl, and 45ACP loadings.WST-WST is a shotshell propellant for Skeet and trap shooting. Its burning characteristics make it useful for 38slp and 45 ACP as well.WSF-WSF is a shotshell powder. It works well in 12-gauge and is the powder of choice for 20-gauge. WSF is also applicable for use in 9mm, 40S&W and 38 Super Auto handloads.Fred, the ABC's note 231 as the fastest of the Win powders. Looks like we just found a typo.

GOA Guy
05-07-2010, 08:55
I have seen some Winchester info that says 231 is their fastest......but then you go to a burn chart in the same manual (Hodgdon #27) and it is shown as slower than WST. In the real world WST is faster than 231. In my experience, all three of the mentioned Winchester powders are great in their proper applications with 231 being the most useful across the spectrum.

fredj338
05-07-2010, 09:14
Thanks Fred, good info. 231 is practically impossible to get now, but it sounds like it can't hurt to pick up a pound of WSF to mess around with. WST is great for light to medium loads, but not the best for hot loads. Looks like I can use WSF for some higher velocities.

I just found these descriptions in the ABC's:
Fred, the ABC's note 231 as the fastest of the Win powders. Looks like we just found a typo.
No, a quick look at a burn rate chart will show what is what. W231 is designated a pistol powder, so fastest of the pistol powders. Many shotgun powders work equally well in pistols, is designated as shotgun powder.:dunno:FWIW, I have never seen a burn rate chart that shows WST slower than W231. In any caliber I have loaded it in, it is faster than W231 (less powder to reach the same vel=faster burning).
IF you want top end 9mm loads, WSF is a good choice.

MisterLady27
05-07-2010, 09:34
Howdy All,

1. I can't speak to the WSF, haven't used it. But I've used a little 231 in 9mm and lots of WST.

2. On the lighter loading side, I found 231 to be distracting to shoot - soot and glowing "pieces of something" flying out of the barrel. OK, so maybe I wasn't concentrating on the front sight like I should have been - I quit using it and still have 1.5 lb on the shelf (1 lb unopened) Anyone else see this? It may be light load issue.

3. I bought WST in a 4 lb container, and now am most of the way through my second 8 lber. I use WST in .38 spc, 9mm, .40, and lots of GTR folks use WST in .45. I use TiteGroup in my larger stuff. If I only could get one powder for handguns - WST. WST doesn't scorch cases like TG.

4. WST meters like a dream through my 650. I like it. My .02

ML27

XDRoX
05-07-2010, 10:15
Howdy All,

1. I can't speak to the WSF, haven't used it. But I've used a little 231 in 9mm and lots of WST.

2. On the lighter loading side, I found 231 to be distracting to shoot - soot and glowing "pieces of something" flying out of the barrel. OK, so maybe I wasn't concentrating on the front sight like I should have been - I quit using it and still have 1.5 lb on the shelf (1 lb unopened) Anyone else see this? It may be light load issue.

3. I bought WST in a 4 lb container, and now am most of the way through my second 8 lber. I use WST in .38 spc, 9mm, .40, and lots of GTR folks use WST in .45. I use TiteGroup in my larger stuff. If I only could get one powder for handguns - WST. WST doesn't scorch cases like TG.

4. WST meters like a dream through my 650. I like it. My .02

ML27

Thanks ML:wavey:
If you have time would you mind adding your 38spl loads with WST to this thread:
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1216235
Thanks

owtlaw
05-07-2010, 11:57
I use alot of WSF for .45 ACP. It is cleaner than 231 and seems to flow well through the meter.

D. Manley
05-07-2010, 13:47
I only have experience with WST.
Would you guys mind comparing the other two to WST so I can get an idea of how they will be in 9mm.

I want to experiment with another powder and I think I have narrowed it down to 231 or WSF.
A brief breakdown or description of each would be awesome so I can easily see the differences between them. Things like burn rate, whether they like light/medium/hot loads. Any thoughts/likes/dislikes you have regarding them.

Thanks

While I have no problem with W231/HP38 or WST, for all 9MM bullet weights I'd pick WSF over either, hands down. WSF is a middle-of-the-road burn rate ideally suited to 9MM and gives great accuracy over a broad range of bullet weights and pressure levels. WST & W231 are both faster powders and while they both can be very good in 9MM, IMO neither offers the versatility of WSF. Between WST and W231, W231 does not burn as cleanly as WST but is probably the more versatile of the two. I might add that WST is cursed by a lack of loading data...it is more capable than the lack of data might suggest plus, you get that nice black pepper smell at no extra charge....:supergrin:

Starman99
05-07-2010, 16:53
I have not used W231, but I've used both WSF and WST in 9mm. Both meter extremely well. I would give a slight edge of cleaner burning to WST but WSF is a clean burning powder. As far as accuracy, I really couldn't tell much difference.....both were very good.

When it came down to ordering another 4lb. jug of powder, I almost had to flip a coin between the two. I ended up ordering the WSF this time. Do yourself a favor and order some WSF and give it a try.

XDRoX
05-07-2010, 19:00
While I have no problem with W231/HP38 or WST, for all 9MM bullet weights I'd pick WSF over either, hands down. WSF is a middle-of-the-road burn rate ideally suited to 9MM and gives great accuracy over a broad range of bullet weights and pressure levels. WST & W231 are both faster powders and while they both can be very good in 9MM, IMO neither offers the versatility of WSF. Between WST and W231, W231 does not burn as cleanly as WST but is probably the more versatile of the two. I might add that WST is cursed by a lack of loading data...it is more capable than the lack of data might suggest plus, you get that nice black pepper smell at no extra charge....:supergrin:

I have not used W231, but I've used both WSF and WST in 9mm. Both meter extremely well. I would give a slight edge of cleaner burning to WST but WSF is a clean burning powder. As far as accuracy, I really couldn't tell much difference.....both were very good.

When it came down to ordering another 4lb. jug of powder, I almost had to flip a coin between the two. I ended up ordering the WSF this time. Do yourself a favor and order some WSF and give it a try.

Great info guys. Thanks for sharing.

21 shooter
05-07-2010, 20:25
I have used 231 and WSF with 45ACP loads and 9mm loads. I find that WSF gives me less felt recoil with the heavier 147gr. bullets in 9mm. 231 is more "snappy" than I like. In 45ACP with 200 and 230gr. bullets, 231 is nice and provides some excellent accuracy. May get around to trying WSF in 45ACP someday just to see how it will compare.