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rvrctyrngr
05-08-2010, 10:21
Student shot at Gunsite (http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/05/06/20100506man-shot-at-arizona-gun-training-abrk0506.html)

Man mistaken for target shot during Ariz. gun training

[/URL] by Jolie McCullough and Jose Zavala - May. 6, 2010 09:34 PM
The Arizona Republic

Read more: [URL]http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/05/06/20100506man-shot-at-arizona-gun-training-abrk0506.html#ixzz0nM6taQ7u (http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/05/06/20100506man-shot-at-arizona-gun-training-abrk0506.html#comments)


A 50-year-old man was mistaken for a target
and accidentally shot during an exercise at a
firearm-training facility in northern Arizona,
authorities said.

The Florida man was training with three of
his colleagues Sunday at the Gunsite
Academy in Paulden, which is about 30 miles
north of Prescott, the Yavapai County
Sheriff's Office said Thursday.

The man was standing on a catwalk as his
colleague fired at targets. The colleague saw t
he black silhouette of the man and fired,
shooting the man in the abdomen, officials
said.

Instructors administered first aid before he
was flown to a local hospital for treatment
and surgery. On Thursday, he was listed in
good condition.

Trainees had been told not to shoot in the
area of the catwalk. No charges were
expected against the shooter.

Buz Mills is the owner of the facility and
candidate for governor. "We are relieved this
client is in good condition thanks to the swift
actions of our staff at Gunsite and the
dedicated paramedics at the Central Yavapai
Fire District," Mills said. Mike Scerbo, press
secretary for Buzz Mills, said Mills has owned
Gunsite Academy since 1999.

*********************************************************
Anyone have any additional information on this incident?

JoshK
05-08-2010, 10:43
so the student shot exactly where he was told not to and get's off clean? personally, i think a reckless endangerment charge should be in order.... but that is just my opinion.... I'm glad the old man is going to be alright....

steveksux
05-08-2010, 16:33
"Don't shoot in the area of the catwalk???" WTF is someone doing downrange on the catwalk during live fire in the first place? Obviously a screwed up decision by the guy on the catwalk, the rangemasters for allowing it, the students for not speaking up and saying this is retarded.

"Don't shoot at lanes 3 and 4, they're setting up targets while we practice these shooting drills.". uh..... NO.

Randy

Deaf Smith
05-08-2010, 17:18
It sounds like the catwalk is NOT downrange but maybe to one side. And the student, under the excitement of the challenge, just for a second saw the 'mover' and shot.

Happly he shot low! And I bet used range ammo, FMJ or RNL, and not as bad as if it was a JHP.

More will come out on this. Good idea to keep an eye on the AZ press.

Deaf

Sam Spade
05-08-2010, 17:35
It sounds like the catwalk is NOT downrange but maybe to one side. And the student, under the excitement of the challenge, just for a second saw the 'mover' and shot.

Happly he shot low! And I bet used range ammo, FMJ or RNL, and not as bad as if it was a JHP.

More will come out on this. Good idea to keep an eye on the AZ press.

Deaf

No, the catwalk is above the targets. You can get an idea from where the stairs are, and can just barely see it in the shadows:

http://www.redchrome.org/gunsite/gunsite-gas-funhouse.jpg

and here:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Yfm_ESqqoyU/SacbXYrWTWI/AAAAAAAAATI/s8sBu025fS8/S220/house.jpg

Here's how the "no shoot" is marked:
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:u3HDdNRO5FlJEM:http://www.barnesbullets.com/images/ConiBrooksGunsiteCourse.JPG

Frankly, it's appears to be a failure of the 180. Putting a student from a basic course in front of a student in a basic course and counting on a red line to keep them safe is obviously poor judgement.

rvrctyrngr
05-08-2010, 19:30
It sounds like the catwalk is NOT downrange but maybe to one side. And the student, under the excitement of the challenge, just for a second saw the 'mover' and shot.

Happly he shot low! And I bet used range ammo, FMJ or RNL, and not as bad as if it was a JHP.

More will come out on this. Good idea to keep an eye on the AZ press.

Deaf

According to another article I read, they were using frangibles, due to the indoor environment.

Deaf Smith
05-08-2010, 20:32
So they were in the building and he shot upwards?

I wonder how much damage the fragable did? Should not have penetrated as much as the FMJ but it makes an awful large wound.

Hope the guy comes out alright.

But I'll tell you this, you don't put basic students in such situations. I've see some many people who were really not gun people handle guns in dangerious fashon when they are nervious (as this kind of course would make them.) Yes poor judgment by some safety officer.

We will see how that plays out.

Deaf

rvrctyrngr
05-08-2010, 21:08
So they were in the building and he shot upwards?

I wonder how much damage the fragable did? Should not have penetrated as much as the FMJ but it makes an awful large wound.

Hope the guy comes out alright.

But I'll tell you this, you don't put basic students in such situations. I've see some many people who were really not gun people handle guns in dangerious fashon when they are nervious (as this kind of course would make them.) Yes poor judgment by some safety officer.

We will see how that plays out.

Deaf

That's how I figure it, based on the pics that Sam posted.

As to the rest, I agree, completely.

GreyEclipse
05-09-2010, 00:51
I don't understand what happened...

Sounds like it was just bad judgment all around.

NEOH212
05-09-2010, 04:08
That sucks. I wouldn't have wanted to be the guy on the receiving end of that deal! I hope everything turns out for the better for everyone involved. I bet the shooter feels like crap right about now though!

mercop
05-09-2010, 07:14
Did I miss where it said it was a basic course?

Gallium
05-09-2010, 07:39
Did I miss where it said it was a basic course?


Off the top of my head, I can think of uh, zero "basic" courses that involve shooting on the more, or decision based shooting.

In my head, a basic course covers the fundamentals of shooting, and nothing else (with regards to shooting) - except for possibly clearing certain types of stoppages.

'Drew
:cool:

MTPD
05-09-2010, 07:48
Sam, what is the purpose of the catwalk? Is it an observation area so shooters going room to room can be observed from above?

ijacek
05-09-2010, 08:05
Sam, what is the purpose of the catwalk? Is it an observation area so shooters going room to room can be observed from above?

I believe it is very useful in the advanced LEO trainings of specialized teams to evaluate their "flood" technique and overall movements. It aids in evaluating the operators from more objective viewpoint.

Marky Mark
05-09-2010, 08:40
so the student shot exactly where he was told not to and get's off clean? personally, i think a reckless endangerment charge should be in order.... but that is just my opinion.... I'm glad the old man is going to be alright.... Ahem,

A 50-year-old man was mistaken for a target
and accidentally shot

"Old Man"?

:steamed:

Sam Spade
05-09-2010, 08:45
Did I miss where it said it was a basic course?



I was told that it was 250, though that wasn't reported. 250 does simulators, as do all the pistol classes. I'll double check if you like, but a quick look over at Gunsite's calendar shows that none of the advanced courses were in session.

David Armstrong
05-09-2010, 09:03
Off the top of my head, I can think of uh, zero "basic" courses that involve shooting on the more, or decision based shooting.
In my head, a basic course covers the fundamentals of shooting, and nothing else (with regards to shooting) - except for possibly clearing certain types of stoppages.
'Drew
:cool:
Might be a misunderstanding of what constitutes a "basic" course at one of the major training centers. A basic course at TR, Gunsite, DTI and so on WILL include shooting with movement/on the move, decision-based shooting, etc.

Deaf Smith
05-09-2010, 10:06
Sam, what is the purpose of the catwalk? Is it an observation area so shooters going room to room can be observed from above?

Then I suggest like indoor gun ranges bullet proof glass protect the catwalks. Not the whole ceiling as that cost alot of $$$, but sort of a 'V' of glass protecting the catwalk. Lke '\_/' shield. That way any errant shot, for say a ricochet, would be stopped yet they can look down and evaluate.

Deaf

Gallium
05-09-2010, 10:57
Might be a misunderstanding of what constitutes a "basic" course at one of the major training centers. A basic course at TR, Gunsite, DTI and so on WILL include shooting with movement/on the move, decision-based shooting, etc.

Then, by definition, it is not a "basic" course. It is including elements that require a firm grasp of some basic shooting fundamental (in fact, all of them).

Shooting on the move and decision based shooting are not components of a basic shooting course - don't matter if the course is offered at FLETC, F&N, SIG, FBI Academy, Farnham, Ayoob etc.

'Drew

David Armstrong
05-09-2010, 11:03
Then, by definition, it is not a "basic" course. It is including elements that require a firm grasp of some basic shooting fundamental (in fact, all of them).

Shooting on the move and decision based shooting are not components of a basic shooting course - don't matter if the course is offered at FLETC, F&N, SIG, FBI Academy, Farnham, Ayoob etc.

'Drew
And yet so many professionals in the business disagree with you. I think I will go along with the experts in the field that have been doing this sort of stuff for decades.

Sam Spade
05-09-2010, 11:16
<----API 250 graduate.

Then, by definition, it is not a "basic" course. It is including elements that require a firm grasp of some basic shooting fundamental (in fact, all of them).

Yes, it's the basic course. It takes shooters who may have never handled a firearms, and builds from "the bullet comes out here". They have fine-tuned the instruction for the Modern Technique so that they can cover a lot of ground in a week, but there's no long-term memory or depth of experience involved.

ETA: Their course description is at http://www.gunsite.com/classes_pistol.html When it says "Prerequisites: None", I think they've defined a basic course.

Deaf Smith
05-09-2010, 16:39
<----API 250 graduate.

When it says "Prerequisites: None", I think they've defined a basic course.

Any basic 'this is a gun' course mixed with fun houses, movement, decision making, etc.. is a pretty poor one as for the term 'basic'.

For as we now see, a guy got shot, not by some AD on a square range, but in a complex environment were fast decision making was required.

Deaf

Gallium
05-09-2010, 17:22
David,

Please do enlighten me! Point me to a few of those experts who would define a basic shooting class as one involving shooting on the move and decision based shooting.

Thanks in advance,
NYC Drew

mercop
05-09-2010, 17:36
It is not always the beginners that makes mistakes. Familiarity breeds contempt.- George

Gallium
05-09-2010, 17:43
It is not always the beginners that makes mistakes. Familiarity breeds contempt.- George

I would have to agree with you sir. In recent years, if my memory still works, no less than THREE police academy firearms instructors shot themselves or police cadets (one shooting was about 4-6 months ago).


And then there is Daniel Ménard. :whistling:

:supergrin:

PhoneCop
05-09-2010, 19:56
Jeezzzzuss! Are we really arguing what's a basic course and what's not!?

AS IF IT MATTERED?!?!

Gunsite has a stellar record, I am unaware of any other accident such as this. They've been doing it for years. BUT...

At anytime you mix faliable people with guns you create a situation wherein someone could get shot. Sometimes is a failure of many levels and persons which finally coincide or it's the one person who just didn't listen, incorporate and execute.

It's as simple as the guy told to load three rounds in a magazine, load magazine in gun, fire three rounds and he misfires on the second, turns the gun to the side as he performs a remedial action shoots the guy next to him before the RO has the opporunity to correct.

It's as complex as you can imagine- maybe a guy on a cat walk where maybe he shouldn't be, a guy ignoring a red line and verbal instruction not to shoot above said red line and an instructor a moment too late to shout, "stop."

PhoneCop
05-09-2010, 19:58
It is not always the beginners that makes mistakes. Familiarity breeds contempt.- George

Excellent observation.

thegriz18
05-09-2010, 20:37
Don't think I'll ever go to Gunsite. I'd rather not get shot. I suppose that this somewhat comes with the territory.....

David Armstrong
05-10-2010, 08:42
David,
Please do enlighten me! Point me to a few of those experts who would define a basic shooting class as one involving shooting on the move and decision based shooting.
Thanks in advance,
NYC Drew
As Sam already pointed out, Gunsite. I'll include Thunder Ranch, DTI, FR&I, and Shoot-N-Iron to the list through personal experience.

David Armstrong
05-10-2010, 08:46
Jeezzzzuss! Are we really arguing what's a basic course and what's not!?
AS IF IT MATTERED?!?!
Apparently it does matter to some people, and I think NYC Drew raises an interesting point: what should one find at a basic class?

Gallium
05-10-2010, 09:34
As Sam already pointed out, Gunsite. I'll include Thunder Ranch, DTI, FR&I, and Shoot-N-Iron to the list through personal experience.


Ok. The majority of the sites I checked do not list shooting on the move and decision based shooting in their basic courses. Thunder Ranch on it's own web site does not list the things you are claiming to be components of a basic class to be as such.


Thunder Ranch: http://www.thunderranchinc.com/courses.html

Read for yourself if they consider shooting on the move a part of "basic" handgun skills........

DTI does not list a "basic" pistol shooting course on their website. :)
http://www.defense-training.com/courses/index.html

Gunsite: http://www.gunsite.com/classes_pistol.html
150 Defensive Pistol is an introductory course. You will be taught the Modern Technique of the Pistol, focusing on safety, weapons handling, basic pistol presentation and marksmanship skills in this three day class.




Shoot n Iron: http://www.shoot-n-iron.com/SIhndgun.asp#SI150

Intermediate handgun courses are designed for the natural progression of student skills, both defensive and competitive. Each phase of this course enhances abilities and skills. Reactionary and moving targets will be utilized. Students completing this level of training can handle most lethal encounters without problem. The intermediate course stresses:
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr> <td valign="top" width="100%">Crisis management and mental preparedness</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top" width="100%">Defensive and competitive exercises</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top" width="100%">Close quarter speed and accuracy </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top" width="100%">Tactical and speed reloading</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top" width="100%">Strong and weak hand weapon operation and loading</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top" width="100%">Tactics</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top" width="100%">Long range accuracy</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top" width="100%">Cover and concealment</td></tr></tbody></table>.........

FR&I no longer has an active web site...
.....

From SIG Academy:

http://www.sigsaueracademy.com/courses/ShowCourseDetails.aspx?CourseID=46

Intermediate Practical Handgun Skills (Handgun 103)

Duration: 1 day / 8 hours

Overview


Review of handgun safety practices
Review of successful shooting basics
Alternative shooting positions
Advanced reloading techniques
Malfunction clearance drills
Single handed shooting techniques
Use of cover
Shooting while moving
Multiple target engagements

Prerequisites: This course is Step 3 of 3 in our foundational handgun series. We strongly recommend Basic Practical Handgun Skills (Handgun 102) (http://www.sigsaueracademy.com/Courses/ShowCourseDetails.aspx?CourseID=45) or equivalent before you attend Handgun 103. The student MUST know and be able to demonstrate how to safely load, fire, and unload a handgun as well as have demonstrated competence in working from a holster and performing reloads.

Sam Spade
05-10-2010, 09:48
Apparently it does matter to some people, and I think NYC Drew raises an interesting point: what should one find at a basic class?

Can't answer that. Gunsite's 250 is billed as a basic class---by which I mean that there are no prerequisites, and someone can literally walk in with no experience and a brand new gun. NRA First Steps has no prerequisites and someone can literally walk in with no experience and a brand new gun. (Yes, I know, I'm making a point.)

To compare a 5-day, 1000 round course at Gunsite with NRA's First Steps that takes half a day is silly.

dosei
05-10-2010, 10:45
...just to tangent this train wreck even more...

Can someone give an example of a time when firing a weapon is not "decision based shooting"? (Excluding ND's) Since when did the basic rule of Know your target and what is beyond get thrown out the window and students given free reign to shoot without thinking?

I've got to agree with Sam...any course that has no prerequisites is a "Basic" course. And just about any course that lasts more than one day is going to get into "shooting while moving".

DTI does not list a "basic" pistol shooting course on their website. :)

Of the 7 courses listed, only 1 requires any previous training. That means they have 6 basic (entry level) courses and 1 intermediate course.



As to the OP and OT (original topic)...very tragic and sad. Thankfully no fatalities. Suspect the rules at Gunsite will get tweaked a bit. (i.e., catwalks are off limits to students during live fire drill with beginner & intermediate classes.

Gallium
05-10-2010, 11:09
Can't answer that. Gunsite's 250 is billed as a basic class---by which I mean that there are no prerequisites, and someone can literally walk in with no experience and a brand new gun. NRA First Steps has no prerequisites and someone can literally walk in with no experience and a brand new gun. (Yes, I know, I'm making a point.)

To compare a 5-day, 1000 round course at Gunsite with NRA's First Steps that takes half a day is silly.

Anything over 2 days or 250-400 rounds of shooting is not, in my opinion considered "basic". :cool:

Yes sir. You can also walk into Rodman's Point as someone who has never touched a gun, or up at the NYSP police academy, and after 2-3weeks of shooting, be proficient at consistently hitting a moving target while you yourself are moving. :)

A "basic" course historically - even at most of the places David cites will full confidence (but divergent from reality) does not include move-n-shoot, nor does it typically include decision based shooting.

A basic shooting course would cover shooting fundamentals and a few types of malfunction clearance drills.

MarkP
05-10-2010, 11:59
YAVAPAI COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE
255 East Gurley Street
Prescott, Arizona 86301
Media Relations Office
(928)771-3275
Media Release
Citizens can contact the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office with information or questions at
(928) 771-3260 or the YCSO website: www.ycsoaz.gov
May 6, 2010
Man Unintentionally Shot during Training Exercise
at Gunsite Academy
***
On May 02, 2010, at approximately 10:15 A.M., Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office
deputies were dispatched to the Gunsite Academy in Paulden, Arizona, to assist
Central Yavapai Fire Department (CYFD) with a shooting victim. Deputies learned that
a 50-year-old Florida man had been unintentionally shot during a routine training
exercise.
The training course, which began earlier in the week, involved the victim and three of
his colleagues. The prior evening, this group went through night shoot training and
was then provided instructions for the next days training scenarios. The Sunday training
included a live fire course involving various shoot/don’t shoot scenarios.
On Sunday, the victim had just completed his indoor shooting scenario and was
standing on a “catwalk” above the training area to observe his colleague. The next
student entered the room and fired two rounds into a target. As the student prepared to
engage the next target, he noticed a black silhouette in his field of view and fired a
round. The silhouette was actually his colleague who was watching the training
exercises from the “cat walk.” The “catwalk” area is designated by a red line and
students are told not to engage anything above the line. The round struck the man in
the abdomen. The round was a frangible bullet type used to avoid ricochets.
Gunsite instructors began first aid and notified CYFD, who in turn, contacted YCSO.
The victim was eventually transported by helicopter to John C. Lincoln Hospital for
treatment and surgery. His current condition is listed as good. No charges are expected
against the student.
Gunsite has fully cooperated with YCSO during the investigation. Gunsite Operations
Manager Ed Head said, “This is the first accident of this nature in Gunsite's 34 years of
business.”

http://www.co.yavapai.az.us/WorkArea/showcontent.aspx?id=56208

MarkP
05-10-2010, 12:02
the shoothouse at gunsite

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bn-5X4Kej0

MarkP
05-10-2010, 13:18
Buz Mills Gives Kudos to His Staff at Gunsite in Shooting Mishap; Accident was Facility's First

Buz Mills, Republican candidate for governor, praised his staff at the Gunsite Academy in Paulden, Arizona on Thursday for helping the victim of Sunday's shooting mishap.

"We are relieved this client is in good condition thanks to the swift actions of our staff at Gunsite and the dedicated paramedics at the Central Yavapai Fire District," Mills wrote in a statement sent to New Times by his campaign staff.

Sunday's wounding of a 50-year-old man from Florida was reportedly the first such shooting accident since the business opened in 1976.

On the average, that seems like a decent track record for the 2,000-acre facility north of Prescott. But we're still concerned, after reading the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office account, that someone was "downrange," providing an accidental target for the shooter.

We called Ed Head, the facility's operation manager, to help us understand what happened.
Image: www.gunsite.com


Head tells us the accident happened in a "live-fire tactical simulator -- call it a shoot-house, if you will."

The shoot-house is a large building for indoor shooting exercises with a catwalk around the perimeter for observers "for for controlling large military groups," he says.

While the victim stood on the catwalk, one of his colleagues inside the building mistook his silhouette for a target and fired. The victim was struck in the abdomen with a frangible bullet made to crumble apart and avoid ricochets.

An instructor was conducting one-on-one training with the shooter, but "sometimes people do things before you can stop them," Head explains.

The shooter, who isn't expected to be charged, had been told he wasn't supposed to shoot up toward the catwalk.

"People are thoroughly briefed" about the rules of the shoot-house, Head says. He doesn't think the building or those kind of exercises are dangerous, noting that this was the first accident the place has ever had.

Gunsite staff provided first aid until paramedics with the Central Yavapai Fire Department showed up. The victim was said to be in good condition on Thursday.


http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2010/05/buz_mills_gives_kudos_to_his_s.php#

David Armstrong
05-10-2010, 13:21
Ok. The majority of the sites I checked do not list shooting on the move and decision based shooting in their basic courses. Thunder Ranch on it's own web site does not list the things you are claiming to be components of a basic class to be as such.

It doesn't list going through the shoothouse either, but hundreds of us have done it.
DTI does not list a "basic" pistol shooting course on their website.
So what? Neitehr does TR. Believe it or not, not everything and everyone revolves around websites and such, and different places use different terminology for similar things.. Again, just like at TR, hundreds of folks have gone through a DTI basic handgun course, including myself, and movement, decision-making, etc. is taught.
Gunsite: http://www.gunsite.com/classes_pistol.html
150 Defensive Pistol is an introductory course. You will be taught the Modern Technique of the Pistol, focusing on safety, weapons handling, basic pistol presentation and marksmanship skills in this three day class.
Have to discuss that with Sam. He has pointed out that 250 is considered a basic course and it includes movement and decision-making.
Shoot n Iron: http://www.shoot-n-iron.com/SIhndgun.asp#SI150
Note that it includes "Basic defensive or competitive techniques" and "Tactics". That is where you get movement and decision-making.
FR&I no longer has an active web site...
Again, so what? Websites are just that, websites. It has nothing to do with what was/is taught. I used to teach with Steve and we taught movement and decision-making at the basic class.
Anything over 2 days or 250-400 rounds of shooting is not, in my opinion considered "basic".
And there is the key, as mentioned earlier. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but "....so many professionals in the business disagree with you." I would suggest the folks that are actually conducting the courses and doing the training are better qualified to determine what should go into their basic course than someone who has not trained with them.
A "basic" course historically - even at most of the places David cites will full confidence (but divergent from reality) does not include move-n-shoot, nor does it typically include decision based shooting.
Thta is a nice claim, but it conflicts with reality. Baic courses at many, if not most, of the well-known training facilities will include move and shoot and incorporate decision-making. That you don't think they should be considered basic as fairly irrelevant to the fact that the folks actually offering the courses and the folks taking the courses consider them basic.

Gallium
05-10-2010, 13:40
Why am I not surprised that you have offered an opinion, and the only thing to have to back it up is "many of us professionals have done it".

Where is the proof really? What do you have to offer except your opinion?

Mamaluke
05-10-2010, 13:55
We teach safety (stressed heavily throughout), grip, sight alignment/sight picture/trigger, stance, drawing, trigger reset, multiple targets, shooting on the move followed by an assault course in our Handgun 1 course. Instructors at shooting ranges teach "basic shooting" which is done in a classroom followed by shooting at a lane. Again, this is what we do...other schools may have different curriculums.

Sam Spade
05-10-2010, 15:27
Anything over 2 days or 250-400 rounds of shooting is not, in my opinion considered "basic". :cool:

You look at content of the syllabus, I look at the experience of the students. Since there's no industry standard, one definition is as good as another.

(And while I don't know how Rodman's does it, here we call that course "Basic Officers' Training". ;) )

Gallium
05-10-2010, 16:26
You look at content of the syllabus, I look at the experience of the students. Since there's no industry standard, one definition is as good as another.

(And while I don't know how Rodman's does it, here we call that course "Basic Officers' Training". ;) )

I actually look at both, but if/when a course is advertised, I consider what is being offered. In determining who can sit the class, the experience of the candidate is taken into consideration.


I know a minute FEW schools and trainers who consider shooting on the move and/or decision based shooting to be a basic skill. I don't know of many places that offers this stuff to folks who have no knowledge, exposure or experience with guns (meaning, it's not usually in day 1 of the curriculum).



How 'bout in your part of the Union? :cool:

'Drew

David Armstrong
05-10-2010, 17:47
Why am I not surprised that you have offered an opinion, and the only thing to have to back it up is "many of us professionals have done it".
No Drew, I've offered a set of verifiable facts. The facts are that at TR the basic handgun course includes movement and decision-making. The facts are that at Shoot-N-Iron the basic class includes moving and decision-making. The facts are that at DTI the basic class includes moving and decision-making. The facts are that at FR&I the basic class includes movement and shooting. The fact that you are unaware of what goes on at many professional training programs does not change those facts.
Where is the proof really? What do you have to offer except your opinion?
The proof is in the courses. Again, your lack of understanding does not change any of that. Sam has also pointed out that movement and decision-making occur at a basic class at Gunsite, and it seems the same happens at the facility that Mamaluke is discussing. If I understood Dosei correctly he is has found basic classes that include movement and decision-making. So it seems it is not just my opinion, it is the combined experience of several people.

NMGlocker
05-10-2010, 18:45
I demand more out of my students (yes, even my first time ever touching a gun students) than then to spend 1/2 a day standing in one spot doing step by step slow fire.
Treat adults like idiots and you get a class full of idiots.
Challenge your students and demand they take responsibility and 99.9% of them step up and make it happen, the other 0.1% gets sent home with a suggestion to take up golf.

snevel
05-10-2010, 19:08
Here's some follow-up information from Yavapai County Sheriff's office about the incident:

http://www.co.yavapai.az.us/WorkArea/showcontent.aspx?id=56208

As speculated, the person who was shot was observing his classmate from the catwalk go thru a live fire exercise in a shoot house type environment.

Personally, *I* wouldn't watch a live fire exercise from any sort of unprotected vantage point.

Even if everyone was told "Whatever you do, don't shoot *that* way"

Simeon

Deaf Smith
05-10-2010, 19:24
Here's some follow-up information from Yavapai County Sheriff's office about the incident:

http://www.co.yavapai.az.us/WorkArea/showcontent.aspx?id=56208

As speculated, the person who was shot was observing his classmate from the catwalk go thru a live fire exercise in a shoot house type environment.

Personally, *I* wouldn't watch a live fire exercise from any sort of unprotected vantage point.

Even if everyone was told "Whatever you do, don't shoot *that* way"

Simeon

And that is why I would put bullet proof glass to protect the catwalks. A '\_/' of glass protecting the catwalk. That way any errant shot, for say a ricochet or upward shot, would be stopped yet they can look down and evaluate.

Deaf

snevel
05-10-2010, 22:30
And that is why I would put bullet proof glass to protect the catwalks. A '\_/' of glass protecting the catwalk. That way any errant shot, for say a ricochet or upward shot, would be stopped yet they can look down and evaluate.

Deaf

Personally, I think videocam coverage would be more than adequate for monitoring and has the benefit of recordings that can be analyzed after the exercise.

It would probably be MUCH cheaper than 10s to 100s of linear feet of ballistic glass to enclose the catwalk.

You couldn't pay me enough to stand unprotected in a live fire zone and it makes me think a bit less of Gunsite (even with as many good things as I've heard about the place) that they allowed a student to do so.

I understand that this incident involved a shot into a "no shoot" zone, but the shooter could have tripped and had an unintended discharge with the same effect.

Simeon

fredj338
05-11-2010, 12:48
"Don't shoot in the area of the catwalk???" WTF is someone doing downrange on the catwalk during live fire in the first place? Obviously a screwed up decision by the guy on the catwalk, the rangemasters for allowing it, the students for not speaking up and saying this is retarded.

"Don't shoot at lanes 3 and 4, they're setting up targets while we practice these shooting drills.". uh..... NO.

Randy
Man, I have to agree with that. Downrange, no vest, sounds kinda stupid to me. Whenever training w/ live fire, safety is always first. Telling someone to not shoot here or there is not quite enough IMO. The traling instr should have been close enough to stop him form elevating to engage the non target on the catwalk, but I wasn't there, again, JMO.

PhoneCop
05-11-2010, 12:54
Apparently it does matter to some people, and I think NYC Drew raises an interesting point: what should one find at a basic class?

Who says it the conclusion reached here will or should be the correct one. The arrogance of presuming to dictate/direct/decide what is a Basic class or should be it's content is astounding.

The Basic class is the basic class one takes. It's what you pay for. He pays for this, she pays for that.

Totally irrelevent.

Sorta like Sam says:
Since there's no industry standard, one definition is as good as another.

(And while I don't know how Rodman's does it, here we call that course "Basic Officers' Training". ;) )

David Armstrong
05-11-2010, 13:02
Who says it the conclusion reached here will or should be the correct one.
Umm, nobody says that. It is called a discussion, where people of differing views present those views and others comment on them.
The arrogance of presuming to dictate/direct/decide what is a Basic class or should be it's content is astounding.
Perhaps you could indicate where that has occurred. IMO it seems that nobody has done any of that. They have discussed what is considered as basic in different formats, but reviewing the thread I don't see anyone who is dictating to anyone else.
Totally irrelevent.
And yet you have found it important enough to comment on the issue twice now.:yawn:

CAcop
05-11-2010, 14:42
First our PD goes to a range every couple of years and runs through a shoot house. The shoot house has a catwalk. We run it with at least one instructor on the catawalk and a 1 to 1 student to instructor ratio on the ground. As far as I know no one has been shot at that range doing that. Of course while not all SWAT ninjas they are not basic students.

Now onto the concept of a "basic" course. The definition of "basic" ultimately depends on who is running the program. Gunsite for its 250 class fires off 1000 rounds in 5 days. To be honest that is half of what most acadamies run here in CA. A graduate of Gunsite 250 probably has more training than rookies in states where academy training is minimal if not nonexistant.

To be honest any "basic" class that only teaches you "the bullets come out here and they hit over there" is not enough to teach you anything except how not to shoot yourself.

A class designed to prepare people for defensive use of a handgun should include shoot/no shoot and basic movement. Why? Because that is what is going to happen if you have to use your weapon defensively. You are going to have to make a desicion to shoot or not and you are probably going to move. You might as well have done it at least once or twice live fire. Sure airsoft will work but it is not a cureall. We are talking about turning, moving 4 directions, and basic room clearing. We are not talking about team entries, unusual shooting positions, etc.

Having trained new recruits and seeing them progress rather fast even with no prior training I can guess what the Gunsite 250 lesson plan looks like. It probably looks like ours. By the end of the first day the student should be able to draw and fire from a holster and reload. The second day they should be able to handle basic movement while shooting, one or two steps in 4 directions. The third day malfunctions of all kinds and turning movements. The fourth day, all the above at night. The fifth day, various under pressure drills such as man vs. man on steel, basic solo room clearing, shoot/no shoot.

Anyone ever go to Gusite 250? Am I close to the lesson plan?

Gallium
05-11-2010, 16:44
First our PD goes to a range every couple of years and runs through a shoot house. The shoot house has a catwalk. We run it with at least one instructor on the catawalk and a 1 to 1 student to instructor ratio on the ground. As far as I know no one has been shot at that range doing that. Of course while not all SWAT ninjas they are not basic students.

Now onto the concept of a "basic" course. The definition of "basic" ultimately depends on who is running the program. Gunsite for its 250 class fires off 1000 rounds in 5 days. To be honest that is half of what most acadamies run here in CA. A graduate of Gunsite 250 probably has more training than rookies in states where academy training is minimal if not nonexistant.

To be honest any "basic" class that only teaches you "the bullets come out here and they hit over there" is not enough to teach you anything except how not to shoot yourself.

A class designed to prepare people for defensive use of a handgun should include shoot/no shoot and basic movement. Why? Because that is what is going to happen if you have to use your weapon defensively. You are going to have to make a decision to shoot or not and you are probably going to move. You might as well have done it at least once or twice live fire. Sure airsoft will work but it is not a cure-all. We are talking about turning, moving 4 directions, and basic room clearing. We are not talking about team entries, unusual shooting positions, etc.

Having trained new recruits and seeing them progress rather fast even with no prior training I can guess what the Gunsite 250 lesson plan looks like. It probably looks like ours. By the end of the first day the student should be able to draw and fire from a holster and reload. The second day they should be able to handle basic movement while shooting, one or two steps in 4 directions. The third day malfunctions of all kinds and turning movements. The fourth day, all the above at night. The fifth day, various under pressure drills such as man vs. man on steel, basic solo room clearing, shoot/no shoot.

Anyone ever go to Gusite 250? Am I close to the lesson plan?


I appreciate you taking the time to bang this out. There is not much you have written that I disagree with.

How can an industry/sport/profession so mature still be so fragmented, wherein there is not GENERAL consensus of what basic, intermediate and advanced are, for the non-LE/non .mil shooter? :)

'Drew

Deaf Smith
05-11-2010, 17:31
Personally, I think videocam coverage would be more than adequate for monitoring and has the benefit of recordings that can be analyzed after the exercise.
Simeon

Actually you are right. That would be a less expensive way and safer! I guess they thought a bit of red paint was even cheaper (well, we know the answer to that now, don't we!)

Deaf

rvrctyrngr
05-12-2010, 06:05
I appreciate you taking the time to bang this out. There is not much you have written that I disagree with.

How can an industry/sport/profession so mature still be so fragmented, wherein there is not GENERAL consensus of what basic, intermediate and advanced are, for the non-LE/non .mil shooter? :)

'Drew

'Drew, I'll offer this:

I don't think anyone here will disagree that, for example, Randy Cain's 'Handgun 101' is a basic handgun course. It assumes no previous experience, begins with 'bullet comes out here', the four rules, and one-handed shooting from close distance to develop sight alignment and trigger control. Safety is continuously reinforced...and I do mean continuously.

By the end of Day 1, students are shooting on the move, and doing it safely and well.

I do agree, though, that however it is packaged, putting a newb in the artificial stress of a building clearing drill probably shouldn't come in the same type of course as 'bullet comes out here'.

David Armstrong
05-12-2010, 09:13
How can an industry/sport/profession so mature still be so fragmented,...
That could be a big part of it. The industry/profession/sport is not particularly mature. If one dates the growth of the industry to the founding of API, which I think is a reasonable assumption, we are just in the second and third generation of firearms trainers, with a few of the first generation founders still in action. It's a young industry, with relatively little research done in it and what research is available is often conflicting.

helo478
05-12-2010, 18:45
Read the original story carefully and you will realize the individuals involved were likely members of law enforcement. While they are never identified by name or occupation, but they are repeated referenced to be colleagues. At least that is my read on the article.

dosei
05-12-2010, 21:24
Read the original story carefully and you will realize the individuals involved were likely members of law enforcement. While they are never identified by name or occupation, but they are repeated referenced to be colleagues. At least that is my read on the article.

Perhaps, but it is also very common to refer to classmates as colleagues.