Chrono tests of D.T 150 and 165gr JHP [Archive] - Glock Talk

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preventec47
05-09-2010, 08:35
FYI
Just wanted to report on some averages of testing of newly received Double Tap 10mm ammo last week

150gr Nosler JHP "claimed 1475 fps" in 4.6" barrel
Actual = 1360fps w/ 5 inch S&W barrel


165gr Golden Saber JHP "claimed 1425fps" in 4.6" barrel
Actual results = 1306fps w/ 5 inch S&W barrel

Ten shots each averaged and chrono screen was 15 feet from the pistol


I am not going to return the ammo or ask for money back but I would appreciate a little more accuracy in marketing.

As long as most feel the way I do there is little incentive for them to change their marketing strategy.

RyeDaddy
05-09-2010, 08:48
It's a good thing you're not going to ask for a refund or write to complain, odds aren't in favor of you getting a refund or even a reply. Responding to customer complaints is something that Mr. McNett has apparently made up his mind not to do.

Do some searching around here on the subject of DoubleTap's customer service.

Kegs
05-09-2010, 19:40
My suggestion regarding double tap ammo is plain and simple: Don't bother.

chemboy
05-10-2010, 08:05
Thank you for posting.
I have been thinking about giving DT a try, but I don't think I will for the time being.

_The_Shadow
05-10-2010, 15:16
Yes, I to found simular results from test of the DT 9X25Dillon 90gr/115gr/125gr test from the S&W 1006 with a Bar-Sto Conversion barrel.

My results posted in the 10 Reloading 9X25Dillon section, I didn't expect to see that amount of spread either. But it is what it is...

9X25 Dillon DT performance August 6<SUP>th</SUP> 2008
Bar-Sto Barrel test from S&W 1006
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p>
DT 90gr Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point
Box 2100 fps/6” bbl
C.O.A.L. 1.250”
Powder Charge Weight 12.2 grains
1940 – 1855 fps from Bar-Sto Barrel from S&W 1006
<o:p> </o:p>
DT 115 gr Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point
Box 1800 fps/6” bbl
C.O.A.L. 1.250”
Powder Charge Weight 10.6 grains
1575 – 1610 fps Bar-Sto Barrel from S&W 1006
<o:p> </o:p>
DT 125 gr Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point
Box 1695 fps/6” bbl
C.O.A.L. 1.250”
Powder Charge Weight 10.0 grains
1525 – 1475 fps Bar-Sto Barrel from S&W 1006

Be advised the powder he uses is not known to me, but the rounds which I pulled down had the weights as list above.

However, here is what I will say...Mike McNett has produced great ammunition which is way more performance than other factory ammo. As far as e-mails, he is a busy man and I understand business is business, actually miss him here on the forums aswell.

cowboywannabe
05-10-2010, 17:25
to see how much "fudging" if any is being done you have to use the same kind of gun and same kind of bbl.

glocks have a polygonal bbl and the s&w 1006 doesnt, so the gas check seal beind the bullet is different, plus its a different brand altogether anyway.

next you have to take in the fact that he tests at 6,000~ feet above sea level compared to what where you were?

when we have an apples to apples comparison id be more willing to listen to the gripes, but until then the facts are DT still makes the fastest 10mm ammo out there save for BB which costs a lot more and only makes heavy hunting type loads.


FYI, Reeds ammo lists some honest velocities for a 10mm but are out of 10mm. do you know any player that makes true 10mm powered ammo from light, medium and heavy loads at less than $1.00 per round?

preventec47
05-10-2010, 17:58
I have never said McNett makes bad ammo. It looks good and it
is reliable. I just wish there was more honesty in his marketing.
I guess we will have to just create our own brochure with
lowered performance specs so we wont be continually disappointed.

The fact is, in my heart, I know his D.T's claims are impossible
to achieve while sticking close to SAAMI pressures. Just for the
sake of truthfulness in marketing, sea level to 7000ft altitudes
makes ZERO difference in muzzle velocities. And I guarantee ...
no will bet 5 to 1 money that the longer barrel of the SW 1006
will more than offset any possible benefit of a Glock shaped barrel.
If anyone cares to challenge we can shoot the same ammo side
by side with different guns thru the chrono.

So where does that leave us ? DT is probably the best
supplier currently of "medium hi" performance ammo for 10mm.
Well put another way... perhaps the only supplier ?

Some say Buffalo Bore ammo is higher in performance for
same bullet weights but I have not ever tested any
and would like to hear of anyone's "credible" tests.
If they do INDEED meet their claims, then I would have
to say they are at a higher pressure than Double Taps.
AND they cost a significant amount more too. For as much
extra money that BB is charging, if they are not comming
close on their performace claims .... THEN I WOULD
be asking for refunds.

ll the other current suppliers with a reputation of a few
months or more ( that I know of ) are mere range and target
ammo suppliers of very mild power.

Like is the situation with many things, you take what you got
and try to make the most of it. I just wanted to pass
the results of my testing so we all can make the best
decisions when purchasing factory made ammo. The assumption
being that better/accurate info allows for better decision making.

I noticed something interesting today about 40SW factory ammo
offerings. Has anyone noticed that there seems to be no such
thing as +P .40SW ammo ?

cowboywannabe
05-10-2010, 18:11
yea, .40cal doesnt have a recognised "+p" rating, thats a made up gimmick.

and i see your point of the longer bbl making up for the gas seal....

as far as velocity, i figure a fighter jet can go faster at higher altitudes than lower, i figured that the same for ammo.

but unfortunately as youve stated, i have to agree that there seems to be about a 100 fps "add-on" from ammo maker's claimed velocities than from real world tests for the 10mm anyway.

PATRICE
05-10-2010, 18:14
.....

cowboywannabe
05-10-2010, 18:50
PATRICE, who do you recommend as a good supplier of factory ammo in light to medium weight and true 10mm velocities?

preventec47
05-11-2010, 03:10
yea, .40cal doesnt have a recognised "+p" rating, thats a made up gimmick.

and i see your point of the longer bbl making up for the gas seal....

as far as velocity, i figure a fighter jet can go faster at higher altitudes than lower, i figured that the same for ammo.
.

You are right about thinner air and going faster but that only concerns long range shooting where less drag means faster down range velocities. but the "coming out of the muzzle" speeds are not meaningfully affected.

Regarding the "VOID" in the market for quality and consistent hi performance loading, there seem to be a couple of small operators who may be entering the market. Most likely these are hobby hand loaders who obtain the licenses to sell commercially. I have even considered it myself but there have
been recent failures of this sort and that dampens the enthusiasm quickly.

I have said for a long time that ammo makers would do better to describe the recipes used in the making of their ammo that could hopefully be referenced to some factory load data and just skip altogether any
performance claims. Ah the problem is all the mfgrs dont want to give out their proprietary formulas.... It may well be that they need to frequently make substitutions in powder makes and quantities and the customers never know about it under the current performance oriented marketing.

Kegs
05-11-2010, 08:41
PATRICE, who do you recommend as a good supplier of factory ammo in light to medium weight and true 10mm velocities?

I am not "speaking" for Patrice, but I will say that I recommend purchasing reloading equipment like I have - an aftermarket barrel (I haven't yet, but that's next on the list) and a chronometer (second to next on my list) to test loads and make your own.

That, and if you want to purchase ammo to carry for self defense, get a .40 S&W conversion barrel and then there are tons of makers.

I never cared about carrying my 10mm for self defense. I bought the 29 because I feel it is the most reliable compact frame/slide combo to serve multiple functions (10mm meets the Colorado elk hunting requirements for handguns and I can -and have- shot .22lr out of the pistol as well with a conversion kit + I can use .40s&w for carry if I opt for a conversion barrel).

Taterhead
05-12-2010, 18:20
Although I am not here to defend DT, I am one who has experience great customer service. My e-mails have been responded to promptly by Mike McNett personally, and products have shipped quickly. My circle of family/friends has had similar results. I will continue to be a customer and to recommend his products.

However, DT has taken a blow lately in the area of PR. A good long term business strategy would be to either 1) explain the methodologies for measuring velocities (this must be convincing and must explain why folks are unable to duplicate similar velocities), or 2) "reset" the velocity claims. The numbers that have been posted by Glocktalkers have consistently been less than claimed. However, those numbers are still quite impressive for a factory shop.

_The_Shadow
05-14-2010, 15:19
What will eventually happen if people are not happy with a particular product or its performance they will seek other suppliers or other means. The news is traveling on many boards, videos and what have you. The fire is spreading, fanned by the very consumer the manufacture targeted, its kind of like shooting one's self in the pocket book!

People have three choices when it comes to the products, buy them and use them, buy someone else's product or like most of us load our own.

For me I resort to rolling my own because it saves me money, gives me great pride in producing top quality, premium ammunition, knowing I have only myself to blame if it doesn't perform to my satisfaction!

freakshow10mm
05-15-2010, 00:16
Regarding the "VOID" in the market for quality and consistent hi performance loading, there seem to be a couple of small operators who may be entering the market.

I seriously wish them luck. I've been an ammunition manufacturer for over 3 years and they have no clue what they are getting themselves into. :rofl:

Most likely these are hobby hand loaders who obtain the licenses to sell commercially.
Pretty much how I started. Niche ammunition. Competition came in and I had to change tactics. Nearly ruined me. Now I've reorganized, new strategy and time will tell. 10mm Automatic is my primary focus right now for my company. I'll load the other stuff for the LGS, but 10mm is getting the website attention.

I have even considered it myself but there have
been recent failures of this sort and that dampens the enthusiasm quickly.
Tell me about it. I wrote a book on becoming an ammunition manufacturer. Now I'm looking for someone to publish it so I can start selling it. There is so much I've learned in the past 3+ years about this industry. I've been brought on to consult other people that want to get into this business. I can tell you from personal experience in this industry, it does not suffer fools. If you don't already know what you're getting yourself into, stay out of it.

I have said for a long time that ammo makers would do better to describe the recipes used in the making of their ammo that could hopefully be referenced to some factory load data and just skip altogether any
performance claims. Ah the problem is all the mfgrs dont want to give out their proprietary formulas.... It may well be that they need to frequently make substitutions in powder makes and quantities and the customers never know about it under the current performance oriented marketing.
Problem is most manufacturers (hereafter "OEM"), even tiny companies such as mine, use powder profiles not available to the public. The canister powders, sold to the public handloaders, must meet consistent performance lot to lot with tightly controlled variance. Any reject in this performance makes it a non-canister powder. The Hodgdon Longshot you buy off the shelf with different lot numbers is essentially the tolerance of acceptable consistency from the manufacturer of the powder (which Hodgdon doesn't actually make it, they distribute it). An OEM may use the same type of powder marketed as the name Longshot but with lot numbers of a different type; could be faster could be slower but still aka Longshot profile.

What the OEM does is test the lot of powder for burn rate. How they load is to a specific pressure. To obtain the pressure with a particular load, they isolate the primer, brass, bullet, coupled with bearing surface, OAL, etc. A certain volume of powder will yield a certain pressure within that load profile. They then use the powder burn rate to obtain the correct pressure which will give the correct velocity for the load, within their quality assurance/control department guidelines.

There could be several powders in stock with the same burn rate but different profiles. This explains why the box of .357 Mag ammo you buy might have 10.4gr of a ball powder in 30 rounds but 20 of the others have 14gr of a flake powder yet the entire box of 50rds is consistent shot to shot with low standard deviation (SD) and velocity spread. Because they load for volume, not weight like handloaders do.

The principle regarding pressure is similar but the handloading public uses grain weight rather that volume. Grain weight, volume, and density all are related. With a certain volume of a certain density you will have a range of grain weight acceptable for that particular powder lot. With a precise grain weight you will have a similar density which will yield a similar volume, but neither are precise. When handloaders measure powder they measure to grain weight, which the powder measure actually is computing volume rather than weight, since no scale is integral to the measure. What they are actually doing is fine tuning the volume to produce a certain grain weight and the measure will throw a tolerance of weight based on volume and density of the powder. This is why some powders are dead on the weight thrown each charge and some have a .1gr or .3gr spread. It's the volume equaling the weight game.

texas 48
05-15-2010, 17:57
I seriously wish them luck. I've been an ammunition manufacturer for over 3 years and they have no clue what they are getting themselves into. :rofl:


Pretty much how I started. Niche ammunition. Competition came in and I had to change tactics. Nearly ruined me. Now I've reorganized, new strategy and time will tell. 10mm Automatic is my primary focus right now for my company. I'll load the other stuff for the LGS, but 10mm is getting the website attention.


Tell me about it. I wrote a book on becoming an ammunition manufacturer. Now I'm looking for someone to publish it so I can start selling it. There is so much I've learned in the past 3+ years about this industry. I've been brought on to consult other people that want to get into this business. I can tell you from personal experience in this industry, it does not suffer fools. If you don't already know what you're getting yourself into, stay out of it.


Problem is most manufacturers (hereafter "OEM"), even tiny companies such as mine, use powder profiles not available to the public. The canister powders, sold to the public handloaders, must meet consistent performance lot to lot with tightly controlled variance. Any reject in this performance makes it a non-canister powder. The Hodgdon Longshot you buy off the shelf with different lot numbers is essentially the tolerance of acceptable consistency from the manufacturer of the powder (which Hodgdon doesn't actually make it, they distribute it). An OEM may use the same type of powder marketed as the name Longshot but with lot numbers of a different type; could be faster could be slower but still aka Longshot profile.

What the OEM does is test the lot of powder for burn rate. How they load is to a specific pressure. To obtain the pressure with a particular load, they isolate the primer, brass, bullet, coupled with bearing surface, OAL, etc. A certain volume of powder will yield a certain pressure within that load profile. They then use the powder burn rate to obtain the correct pressure which will give the correct velocity for the load, within their quality assurance/control department guidelines.

There could be several powders in stock with the same burn rate but different profiles. This explains why the box of .357 Mag ammo you buy might have 10.4gr of a ball powder in 30 rounds but 20 of the others have 14gr of a flake powder yet the entire box of 50rds is consistent shot to shot with low standard deviation (SD) and velocity spread. Because they load for volume, not weight like handloaders do.

The principle regarding pressure is similar but the handloading public uses grain weight rather that volume. Grain weight, volume, and density all are related. With a certain volume of a certain density you will have a range of grain weight acceptable for that particular powder lot. With a precise grain weight you will have a similar density which will yield a similar volume, but neither are precise. When handloaders measure powder they measure to grain weight, which the powder measure actually is computing volume rather than weight, since no scale is integral to the measure. What they are actually doing is fine tuning the volume to produce a certain grain weight and the measure will throw a tolerance of weight based on volume and density of the powder. This is why some powders are dead on the weight thrown each charge and some have a .1gr or .3gr spread. It's the volume equaling the weight game.

Freakshow thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience. I haven't seen much of you lately here on Gt but your explanation of manufacturing issues and theory and the relationship to those of us who make our own ammunition provided insight as to why we see the variations in ammunition. I wish you all the best and much success in your endeavor! Thanks Again