This is how bad draw techniques are passed on... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Mamaluke
05-09-2010, 17:18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWwzuLQh10w&playnext_from=TL&videos=gslAlEwpv0E&feature=grec

Gallium
05-09-2010, 17:34
m'luke,

Why you had to blow me up like that????? :rofl:




(Kidding, that is not I :supergrin:)

beatcop
05-09-2010, 18:19
hmmm, just what was wrong?

PhoneCop
05-09-2010, 19:44
The only thing I saw which I didn't like I can attribute to the nervousness and "disjointeness" of slowing down a technique nornally done faster. You do some weird things when you first attempt to slow down and break down a series of movements you normally do quickly. It was that left hand high up over the weapon. I suspect that during a "normal" draw the hand doesn't do that."

beatcop
05-09-2010, 19:52
Other than "acting technique" he's teaching current doctrine.

NMGlocker
05-09-2010, 20:40
He had just a hint of "bowling" going on, but otherwise he has a better draw than the majority of people I see shooting IDPA matches.

thegriz18
05-09-2010, 20:47
He had just a hint of "bowling" going on, but otherwise he has a better draw than the majority of people I see shooting IDPA matches.

What do you mean by "bowling"?

Sam Spade
05-09-2010, 21:05
What do you mean by "bowling"?

Arcing the gun hand upwards such as how you move when you launch a bowling ball.

Mamaluke
05-09-2010, 22:43
His support hand is muzzled by the gun on what I consider count 2 of the draw...very unsafe. He can never do intermediate or close contact shooting the way his support hand is positioned. Overall poor technique.

Mamaluke
05-09-2010, 22:51
m'luke,

Why you had to blow me up like that????? :rofl:




(Kidding, that is not I :supergrin:)

:) No way it would be you!

Gallium
05-10-2010, 04:27
David is going to be here shortly to tell me what the experts do, and don't do...and underscore and remind me of how little I know.

If I were his (your, a, any) trainer, here are a few things I would tell him (you, anyone).


1. A draw-stroke and presentation are not part of a "basic" firearms shooting course. Consequently, I would want to see gun handling such as loading, unloading, dry fire, a single shot drill (with snap caps/dummy rounds mixed in) and clearing ammo malfunctions before we got to drawing / presenting from a retention device >returning to a retention device.

If you want to know why I would do all of these (useless, redundant, non-applicable) things BEFORE I got to presentation from retention...time and space allowing, I'll answer if asked.

2. I cannot help myself. When I am demonstrating presentation from retention, as soon as my gun comes out, I am MOVING. To the left, right, forward/back, diagonal rear to a crouch...if a circumstance requires me to draw my gun (I am not a cop) it means there is some circumstance where I feel the use of deadly (physical) force is necessary.

3. I teach "fast to the mother****ing gun!" I would not demonstrate a draw-stroke as this to anyone in person, and / or worse, have it recorded for posterity, and worst yet, to be recorded and posted on the internet. Fast to the gun, because if I THINK I need my gun, I probably do in a bad way, and I want to have it in a position where it does me the most good. Lollygagging (slow draw-stroke) to the gun is a fine way to ingrain a really bad habit.

4. I got no real complaints with this grip in the holster, I respectfully (:cool:) disagree with M'luke - I do not see any real or close muzzling going on. What I do see is a bit of slop between clearing holster and where both hands get on the gun. I also have no issue with how he finally gets the gun on target. I do it different, but at the end of the day, I don't split hairs over things that accomplish the same goal.

5. When he is returning the gun to the holster, he is still stationary, and he does not do anything resembling a wide angle + orbital scan.

If the person I am training, is at that point in time needing to understand the dynamics of a proper draw-stroke, then there are things further up on the scale of hierarchy of needs I want to have them ingrained as second nature, so every chance I get, it gets put out there. As stated above, those would be -



fast, sure and aggressive to the gun
if you have to get to your gun, MOVE off of where you are
on the process of returning the gun to the holster, do so reluctantly, go to a depressed weapon/low ready; break your grip (get the non-dominant hand off the gun or go to safety circle) and scan before putting the gun back in holster.


Summary:
I expect the proficient firearms instructor to cover all of these things in the two minutes he used in the video. If you are doing a video or class on presenting from holster, and you do not INTEGRATE movement, fast access, scanning, and slow, methodical reluctant re-holstering, into the process of presenting from holster, I have little use for your services.

Your mile-age of course, :cool: may differ. That's just my way, and I've seen a lot of things done a lot of ways over the years, and still get me/us to that point where we want to get to.

'Drew

Gallium
05-10-2010, 07:06
Arcing the gun hand upwards such as how you move when you launch a bowling ball.


Bowling / Fishing - I can never get the semantics right. I thought fishing is gun up above sight/target line then back down on target,

bowling - gun dips below sight target line, then back up on target.

Either way, both are inefficiencies of motion, and since I neither bowl nor fish :embarassed: I cannot claim that anything I've written on these two things are accurate.


'Drew

beatcop
05-10-2010, 17:23
I expect the proficient firearms instructor to cover all of these things in the two minutes he used in the video.

I was just happy he didn't shoot himself.....

Deaf Smith
05-10-2010, 17:24
Was he going to fan that Glock?

Deaf

Oramac
05-10-2010, 20:14
if you have to get to your gun, MOVE off of where you are

not to hijack the thread, but what do you do in a situation where moving is really not an option? i say this because, at my work (cant say where, but its in a generally cramped space behind a counter), i am severely limited in my available movement if i want to maintain anything like a reasonable firing lane. the minute i move left/right, i've lost all LOS to the target and moving straight back (in my mind) really doesnt help anything besides narrowing my LOS.

thanks!

GlocksterPaulie
05-10-2010, 20:20
I wish he had shown the weapon to be clear/safe before muzzling the camera guy.

Paulie:whistling:

Gallium
05-10-2010, 20:50
[/list]
not to hijack the thread, but what do you do in a situation where moving is really not an option? i say this because, at my work (cant say where, but its in a generally cramped space behind a counter), i am severely limited in my available movement if i want to maintain anything like a reasonable firing lane. the minute i move left/right, i've lost all LOS to the target and moving straight back (in my mind) really doesnt help anything besides narrowing my LOS.

thanks!

My opinion: The tactics you used are based on your circumstances + your training.

Why do you need to go to your gun? Is someone in the process of pointing a gun at you? If yes, are you gonna stay there, or duck, or step off in either direction, or clear the counter? :)

Suggestions: Get a transparent barrier put in. Or, wear a bullet resistant vest if the likelihood of you being shot @ is high.

If you can't move, you can't move...so I would hone being able to spot trouble from a distance, and either not be there when it shows up, or have something in "12GA + 3" Magnum round + 00buck for a warm welcome.




I wish he had shown the weapon to be clear/safe before muzzling the camera guy.

Paulie:whistling:


That was something else that I noted, but I let that one slide, because it appears that we did not see the start of the video, and he did say "again, we are going to demonstrate that the weapon is unloaded...no magazines in the magwell, etc etc".

NMGlocker
05-10-2010, 21:12
Moving should not be an automatic response to drawing.
You should train moving left, right and not moving at all.
Why is that?
Because moving isn't always the correct answer and you should never have a Pavlovian response to the draw.
When would moving not be the correct answer?
If you were assaulted while changing a flat next to a busy freeway or standing at a bus stop. What good would it do you to move out of the way of a 115gr. projectile and into the path of a 4 ton vehicle?

Gallium
05-11-2010, 03:58
Moving should not be an automatic response to drawing.
You should train moving left, right and not moving at all.
Why is that?
Because moving isn't always the correct answer and you should never have a Pavlovian response to the draw.
When would moving not be the correct answer?
If you were assaulted while changing a flat next to a busy freeway or standing at a bus stop. What good would it do you to move out of the way of a 115gr. projectile and into the path of a 4 ton vehicle?


Then I would move in the vertical plane (from crouched, to up). Chances are, given the scenario you describe, I MIGHT not have the opportunity to access my gun anyways, so I will need to either stand, and defend, or create distance between my and the threat so I can defend myself.

I'm 40+ yrs old, been stabbed a few times, been shot at a few times, been in the heart of a few riots, talked down guns screwed up my chin and nose once or twice...I think I'll do what I do, and you can continue to do what you do.

How about that? :)

'Drew

Gallium
05-11-2010, 04:16
Moving should not be an automatic response to drawing.
You should train moving left, right and not moving at all.
Why is that?
Because moving isn't always the correct answer and you should never have a Pavlovian response to the draw.
When would moving not be the correct answer?
If you were assaulted while changing a flat next to a busy freeway or standing at a bus stop. What good would it do you to move out of the way of a 115gr. projectile and into the path of a 4 ton vehicle?

The "tactics" one uses should always be driven by the circumstances, and the level of one's capability (training/physique/mindset).

If the circumstance calls for me to go hands on, I am not going to draw my gun. Likewise, if there are physical/logistical impediments to moving from the space I am occupying, then logic and common sense dictates one would take that action providing the highest odds of surviving, and winning the encounter (sorry Glockster Paulie! :embarassed:).

When I train, and when I demonstrate, most often than not, I incorporate body movement in demonstrating gun from or to holster. There has been no compelling data sets or evidence to indicate this would not be the proper course of action in 99.95% of the times a gun is drawn.

CAcop
05-11-2010, 14:49
I wish he had shown the weapon to be clear/safe before muzzling the camera guy.

Paulie:whistling:

There is a reason why I bought a ASP red gun after I started teaching. It eliminates the whole "my gun is empty, see?" time wasting crap. I have spent whole days in the range with a red gun in my holster.

GlocksterPaulie
05-11-2010, 16:12
CAcop,

You trader. I have been using Blue guns, your using a komi Red gun.

Paulie:rofl:

David Armstrong
05-12-2010, 14:29
David is going to be here shortly to tell me what the experts do, and don't do...and underscore and remind me of how little I know.
Some things speak volumes all by themselves. That you recognize there is a doctrine accepted by many experts and that it contradicts your personal beliefs is a good start.

Gallium
05-12-2010, 16:14
Some things speak volumes all by themselves. That you recognize there is a doctrine accepted by many experts and that it contradicts your personal beliefs is a good start.

:animlol::fishing:

Holy crap! I typed that out loud???? :supergrin:

David Armstrong
05-12-2010, 16:30
You know what they say...when you invoke the name, don't be surprised at the appearance!:whip::animlol:

Gallium
05-12-2010, 16:33
You know what they say...when you invoke the name, don't be surprised at the appearance!:whip::animlol:


Do you share m'luke's perspective on things wrong with the drawstroke? :cool:

degoodman
05-12-2010, 17:39
Can I play?

I watched the video several times, and while I wouldn't consider the draw he demonstrated the best draw ever, I've seen far worse. To my eye, it seemed like most of his problem were realted to the fact that it didn't appear that he scripted / rehersed what he was going to do or say, which made him appear scattered and disorganized, more than the technique sucking really really bad.

David is going to be here shortly to tell me what the experts do, and don't do...and underscore and remind me of how little I know.

If I were his (your, a, any) trainer, here are a few things I would tell him (you, anyone).


1. A draw-stroke and presentation are not part of a "basic" firearms shooting course. Consequently, I would want to see gun handling such as loading, unloading, dry fire, a single shot drill (with snap caps/dummy rounds mixed in) and clearing ammo malfunctions before we got to drawing / presenting from a retention device >returning to a retention device.

If you want to know why I would do all of these (useless, redundant, non-applicable) things BEFORE I got to presentation from retention...time and space allowing, I'll answer if asked.


In an ideal world, I'd agree with you. I think the world would be a whole lot safer place if everyone's exposure to firearms began somewhere in the mid-single digit years of life, and continued for a lifetime. I had years on a pellet gun before my first bang stick. then years on rifles before even touching a handgun. I also owned and shot handguns for at least half a decade before I ever owned a holster, let alone carried a handgun anywhere in one. That gives lots and lots of time to get really good at each of the steps as we go down the road.

Unfortunately, we don't live in that world. Many of the shooters who are acquiring handguns and CCW permits are rank novices when they purchase that first gun and holster, and everything they're going to learn about that gun, they're going to get in 1 class, or they just aren't going to get it at all. In that world, I don't think its inappropriate to get to drawing and reholstering in the so-called basic class. It might be at the end of the day, but to not cover it at all for someone who wants or needs to carry a firearm for personal protection and doesn't have 40 hours to spend in the classroom and range to get good at it would be a mstake in my opinion.

2. I cannot help myself. When I am demonstrating presentation from retention, as soon as my gun comes out, I am MOVING. To the left, right, forward/back, diagonal rear to a crouch...if a circumstance requires me to draw my gun (I am not a cop) it means there is some circumstance where I feel the use of deadly (physical) force is necessary.

My statement here would be baby steps young jedi. Crawl. Walk. Run. Trying to teach all of that in short time is going to be feeding the newbs from a fire hose to an even greater extent than you already are. They need to see the steps of the draw with the rest of the frame of reference not moving so they can get those right, before they get them right while moving, then get them right while moving fast.

And here is the part where I'll add that while movement is great if you can do it, in a majority of the common civilian CCW encounters I've seen complete AAR's on it just doesn't happen, and the civilians still do fine. They're in hallways at home, between parked cars, standing at the ATM, or in line or behind the counter at the stop-and-rob. The situations happen too fast and too close for movement to help much, they're too hemmed in by stuff to move anywhere helpful, and movement also hurts the shooting end of things. Trainers don't like stand and deliver, but the better ones will also acknowledge that alot of the time, that's what you're going to have.

3. I teach "fast to the mother****ing gun!" I would not demonstrate a draw-stroke as this to anyone in person, and / or worse, have it recorded for posterity, and worst yet, to be recorded and posted on the internet. Fast to the gun, because if I THINK I need my gun, I probably do in a bad way, and I want to have it in a position where it does me the most good. Lollygagging (slow draw-stroke) to the gun is a fine way to ingrain a really bad habit.

I'll insert the old IPSC mantra on everything.

Fast is slow.

Slow is smooth.

Smooth is fast.

I can point to a SPECIFIC shooting that brings this to light. I don't have a link handy, but google up "Ohio Highway Patrol Kehoe shooting" and link up a video. The trooper in question attempts to draw and fails 3 times, before he slows down, defeats the retention devices on his holster, and successfully executes a draw.

While you don't want to be painfully slow forever, doing things at a deliberate, methodical pace until you have the movements down pat, then accelerating the movements as your proficiency increases gets you to a fast draw way quicker than trying to be "fast" out of the gate.

4. I got no real complaints with this grip in the holster, I respectfully (:cool:) disagree with M'luke - I do not see any real or close muzzling going on. What I do see is a bit of slop between clearing holster and where both hands get on the gun. I also have no issue with how he finally gets the gun on target. I do it different, but at the end of the day, I don't split hairs over things that accomplish the same goal.

I'd agree that I didn't see anything radically unsafe.

I teach a 5 point draw when called on to teach it. 1: Grip, 2: Rip, 3: Rotate, 4: Smack, 5: Drive.

his step 3 isn't all that clean, which leads to a sloppy Smack. The teaching point that I like to insert is that while in competetion, you're going to execute a nice pretty 5 point draw before you start shooting, most of the time anyway, in a gunfight, you may be slinging lead as soon as you've rotated, and you may NEVER get two hands on the gun.

This is where things get complex. from a pure safety standpoint, most instructors teach to have the off hand on the midline of the body, somewhere between the sternum and the belly button, the main reason being that you smack the off hand onto the gun from below, so you're never in front of the muzzle with the off hand. The problem here is that if you're hand to hand fighting a guy off you with that off hand while you're getting a gun out, the hand is going to be high, defending your head / neck, or attacking his. so if we teach low hands only, you risk muzzling your hand if you have to go to the enemy's head with a strike if you're mid draw.

So a little flex in the teaching is in order. sometimes its hand low, smack gun from below and get two handed as you deliver the gunfire. (This is a really good idea if you're doing something like a "Zipper" as discussed in another recent thread). And sometimes its hand high so you can gouge his eyes out while you're shooting him in the belly with contact shots at -0- range.

5. When he is returning the gun to the holster, he is still stationary, and he does not do anything resembling a wide angle + orbital scan.

If the person I am training, is at that point in time needing to understand the dynamics of a proper draw-stroke, then there are things further up on the scale of hierarchy of needs I want to have them ingrained as second nature, so every chance I get, it gets put out there. As stated above, those would be -



fast, sure and aggressive to the gun
if you have to get to your gun, MOVE off of where you are
on the process of returning the gun to the holster, do so reluctantly, go to a depressed weapon/low ready; break your grip (get the non-dominant hand off the gun or go to safety circle) and scan before putting the gun back in holster.


Summary:
I expect the proficient firearms instructor to cover all of these things in the two minutes he used in the video. If you are doing a video or class on presenting from holster, and you do not INTEGRATE movement, fast access, scanning, and slow, methodical reluctant re-holstering, into the process of presenting from holster, I have little use for your services.

Your mile-age of course, :cool: may differ. That's just my way, and I've seen a lot of things done a lot of ways over the years, and still get me/us to that point where we want to get to.

'Drew

I guess my last point is that while you could "demonstrate" all those things in 2 minutes, and maybe identify the parts as you do so, there is no way you're going to cover them in a teaching mode in that same time.

The subject of the video was teaching a draw stroke, and as discussed, while it wasn't perfect, it wasn't terrible either. Clean up the video technque, reherse what he wants to cover and say a couple takes before comitting it to youtube so its a more efficient presentation of the material and he'll do OK. the rest of the elements can be for video's 2, 3, 4, 5 and 37 in the series if he stays dedicated to making them.

I give the guy a pass on this effort, with plenty of room to improve.

PEC-Memphis
05-12-2010, 17:55
Fast is slow.

Slow is smooth.

Smooth is fast.



Can I play, too ?

Fast is Fast....

Slow is, well, slow.....

Smooth is'nt always fast - but fast is almost always smooth.

Gallium
05-12-2010, 19:04
Degoodman,

The one thing I forgot to put in all of that is, (thought I mentioned it), was, IF (and I don't) I was making a video.

To add: I've learned immensely from your postings here.

'Drew
:cool:

dosei
05-12-2010, 20:10
His support hand is muzzled by the gun on what I consider count 2 of the draw...very unsafe. He can never do intermediate or close contact shooting the way his support hand is positioned. Overall poor technique.

Muzzle never sweeps the weak hand. His weak hand is higher than the gun when he drops his elbow/points the gun forward. Almost as if he is accustomed to carrying chamber empty and has developed his own draw that positions his weak hand to rack the slide. Now, his weak hand is wasting motion moving so far across his body and so high only to then move back down in a small semi-circle to get back under the gun and in front of the strong hand.

Mamaluke
05-12-2010, 22:44
Muzzle never sweeps the weak hand. His weak hand is higher than the gun when he drops his elbow/points the gun forward. Almost as if he is accustomed to carrying chamber empty and has developed his own draw that positions his weak hand to rack the slide. Now, his weak hand is wasting motion moving so far across his body and so high only to then move back down in a small semi-circle to get back under the gun and in front of the strong hand.

If he had to shoot close contact or intermediate...say bye to his support hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTpGao06G5I

Overall it's a very sloppy draw...no excuse for such a draw from a self proclaimed instructor. Under stress one defaults to the level of one's training and that is not how you want to train.

Gallium
05-12-2010, 23:00
If he had to shoot close contact or intermediate...say bye to his support hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTpGao06G5I

Overall it's a very sloppy draw...no excuse for such a draw from a self proclaimed instructor. Under stress one defaults to the level of one's training and that is not how you want to train.


Forgive me if I'm repeating myself...that's a pretty neat video. :cool:

Is his (subject of the original post) draw sloppy? Yes.

Gallium
05-12-2010, 23:10
[/list]
not to hijack the thread, but what do you do in a situation where moving is really not an option? i say this because, at my work (cant say where, but its in a generally cramped space behind a counter), i am severely limited in my available movement if i want to maintain anything like a reasonable firing lane. the minute i move left/right, i've lost all LOS to the target and moving straight back (in my mind) really doesnt help anything besides narrowing my LOS.

thanks!


Sorry I missed this before. You quoted this:

Originally Posted by NYC Drew http://glocktalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15270863#post15270863)


if you have to get to your gun, MOVE off of where you are




But it is taken out of context, as the entire thought was this:


If the person I am training, is at that point in time needing to understand the dynamics of a proper draw-stroke, then there are things further up on the scale of hierarchy of needs I want to have them ingrained as second nature, so every chance I get, it gets put out there. As stated above, those would be -



fast, sure and aggressive to the gun
if you have to get to your gun, MOVE off of where you are
on the process of returning the gun to the holster, do so reluctantly, go to a depressed weapon/low ready; break your grip (get the non-dominant hand off the gun or go to safety circle) and scan before putting the gun back in holster.




You took a training scenario, excised that one part, and extrapolated it to a deadly force situation.

So let me expand on my bullet points.



What one does should be driven by the demands of the situation, and the tools you have at your disposal.
If you can't move, you can't move. If you CAN move, then cover would be a priority, as well as making yourself a more difficult target.

Gallium
05-12-2010, 23:23
Moving should not be an automatic response to drawing.
You should train moving left, right and not moving at all.
Why is that?
Because moving isn't always the correct answer and you should never have a Pavlovian response to the draw.
When would moving not be the correct answer?
If you were assaulted while changing a flat next to a busy freeway or standing at a bus stop. What good would it do you to move out of the way of a 115gr. projectile and into the path of a 4 ton vehicle?

My assumption is that you are addressing my post.

1. I never did state that moving should be an automatic response to drawing. What I did say was:


If the person I am training, is at that point in time needing to understand the dynamics of a proper draw-stroke, then there are things further up on the scale of hierarchy of needs I want to have them ingrained as second nature, so every chance I get, it gets put out there. As stated above, those would be -



fast, sure and aggressive to the gun
if you have to get to your gun, MOVE off of where you are
on the process of returning the gun to the holster, do so reluctantly, go to a depressed weapon/low ready; break your grip (get the non-dominant hand off the gun or go to safety circle) and scan before putting the gun back in holster.




Moving is not the response to the draw. Moving is the response to the threat. My position on moving is to get my student candidate completely comfortable with those things I have listed in the bullet points. Those listed things are in turn supported by solid pistol shooting fundamentals. The person that can shoot and move, shoot and move and hit a moving target, shoot and move and reload and move, all accurately, stands a better chance of making hits when pressed to do so.

To present those scenarios about changing a flat and/or being assaulted at a bus stop is completely laughable. No reasonable person is going to instruct someone else on shooting to say "if you are attacked on the left, move to the right while drawing" etc. The rational person would seek to equip his/her student with as many skills as possible, while opening their minds to envision and consider scenarios, so that they may be better prepared to deal with those situations.

If you agree, disagree or not, there are many things we train for (military, Diplomatic protective services, law enforcement, sports, martial arts, conceal carry, IDPA/etc) where what we want is exactly a "Pavlovian" (pre-wired) response, not requiring active conscious thought.

'Drew

Gallium
05-12-2010, 23:55
Originally Posted by NYC Drew http://glocktalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15270863#post15270863)
2. I cannot help myself. When I am demonstrating presentation from retention, as soon as my gun comes out, I am MOVING. To the left, right, forward/back, diagonal rear to a crouch...if a circumstance requires me to draw my gun (I am not a cop) it means there is some circumstance where I feel the use of deadly (physical) force is necessary.


My statement here would be baby steps young jedi. Crawl. Walk. Run. Trying to teach all of that in short time is going to be feeding the newbs from a fire hose to an even greater extent than you already are. They need to see the steps of the draw with the rest of the frame of reference not moving so they can get those right, before they get them right while moving, then get them right while moving fast.Degoodman,

Let me preface my response by saying that I have always admired your ability to generate clear, articulate responses. I have often wished that each of my sentences could carry as much meaning and weight as yours do. On all of Glocktalk, there are probably three active posters whose words I always (very) carefully parse. You would be one of those people; Sam Spade would be the 2nd; Oldgraywolf would be the 3rd. Now I don't always agree with Spade or 'Wolf, and I rarely disagree with you :cool:...and I don't think there is anything in this thread so far that rises to the level to cause me to take a divergent view from your postion.

I quit being "defensive" sometime around 1992 (:)), this response is not meant to be as such, only to clarify my thoughts and position.




When I am demonstrating presentation from retention, I WILL break the entire process down into discrete, digestible steps. Step 1 might be "access". Step 2 might be "grip" (with a distinct step in some random direction). Step 3 might be where the hands join (if shooting two handed). Step 4 might be extending the gun out....and so on, all the way back to "slowly and reluctantly re-holstering" (if the training or real life scenario calls for it!). At some point before reholstering, I am scanning. Now, I tell my students to focus on my HANDS. It is my hope that the observant student would note these "extra" things I have done. They are not done in such a way to cause distraction, simply done to create that 1st impression as to what the "final product" looks like.
Everything (gun handling) is built upon the idea of moving from simple/easy to combining simple discrete steps into complex patterns, sequences or motions. When I am demonstrating, if the exercise needs to be broken down into cellular segments - so be it.


I guess my last point is that while you could "demonstrate" all those things in 2 minutes, and maybe identify the parts as you do so, there is no way you're going to cover them in a teaching mode in that same time.


The discussion about the (this) video has challenged me. Time permitting, I am going to make (not for public consumption) a 2 minute video, encompassing those things I say I would cover. There is a big honking caveat with that, as I have repeatedly maintained that shooting from retention and/or/and-or moving are not "basic" skill sets. My understanding on a basic skill is one where there is no significant underlying requirement. Unless I have been completely mis-educated in a number of different fields, that basic [ :whistling: ] tenet remains unchanged - even in the realm of the shooter. Both shooting from retention and shooting while moving requires a fair grasp of other, more base shooting fundamentals, so neither of these are "basic" skills. Are they offered in "basic" classes? Apparently, yes. Are they "basic" skills? Generally no. (this would be that part where you and I are respectfully agreeing to disagree!)


I can point to a SPECIFIC shooting that brings this to light. I don't have a link handy, but google up "Ohio Highway Patrol Kehoe shooting" and link up a video. The trooper in question attempts to draw and fails 3 times, before he slows down, defeats the retention devices on his holster, and successfully executes a draw.

While you don't want to be painfully slow forever, doing things at a deliberate, methodical pace until you have the movements down pat, then accelerating the movements as your proficiency increases gets you to a fast draw way quicker than trying to be "fast" out of the gate.



In short, we agree! Without watching the video, I would wager a guess that the trooper did not practice his draw until the requisite neural pathways in his brain were established.
Also, I did not say "fast out of the gate", I teach (and say) "FAST TO THE GUN", not fast to the draw, or fast to the trigger press - just fast to the gun. I modulate this piece of instruction by underscoring EVERYTHING should be done as efficiently and as quickly as possible, without compromising "combat accuracy". Hopefully, you will see in my response(s), that what I have posted in this thread only applies to a limited set of scenarios. Obviously, if one is already sufficiently protected by cover (relative to the threat), then moving is redundant; if time and space are such where precision is of a higher priority than hits; if the reason for getting to the gun is not filled with immediate urgency (known felony stop, approaching vehicle), etc.


As always, respectfully,
'Drew
(I ran outta steam).

dosei
05-13-2010, 06:02
If he had to shoot close contact or intermediate...say bye to his support hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTpGao06G5I

Overall it's a very sloppy draw...no excuse for such a draw from a self proclaimed instructor. Under stress one defaults to the level of one's training and that is not how you want to train.

Using the draw that was demonstrated in the OP video, the weak hand would be high & across the chest, just at or below the nipples...hardly at risk of being in front of the muzzle when shooting from retention/close contact. His weak hand/arm would be in position for blocking a variety of attacks or pushing off the attacker as the strong hand draws/fires.

Mamaluke
05-13-2010, 07:24
Using the draw that was demonstrated in the OP video, the weak hand would be high & across the chest, just at or below the nipples...hardly at risk of being in front of the muzzle when shooting from retention/close contact. His weak hand/arm would be in position for blocking a variety of attacks or pushing off the attacker as the strong hand draws/fires.

We're watching different videos then.

David Armstrong
05-13-2010, 07:58
Do you share m'luke's perspective on things wrong with the drawstroke? :cool:
Not particularly. It is not precisely the drawstroke I teach, but I don't see anything out of the normal parameters with it. I agree with dosei that I don't see any real problem with the off-hand position.

degoodman
05-13-2010, 10:39
Degoodman,


In short, we agree! Without watching the video, I would wager a guess that the trooper did not practice his draw until the requisite neural pathways in his brain were established.
Also, I did not say "fast out of the gate", I teach (and say) "FAST TO THE GUN", not fast to the draw, or fast to the trigger press - just fast to the gun. I modulate this piece of instruction by underscoring EVERYTHING should be done as efficiently and as quickly as possible, without compromising "combat accuracy". Hopefully, you will see in my response(s), that what I have posted in this thread only applies to a limited set of scenarios. Obviously, if one is already sufficiently protected by cover (relative to the threat), then moving is redundant; if time and space are such where precision is of a higher priority than hits; if the reason for getting to the gun is not filled with immediate urgency (known felony stop, approaching vehicle), etc.


As always, respectfully,
'Drew
(I ran outta steam).

To expound on this part a little bit. The Keyhoe shooting was our own little "wake up" call here in Ohio, fortunately without the injury or death of a trooper that usually makes these types of calls.

You are precisely correct in your assessment of the trooper's performance. This shooting occurred in 1997, just a few short months after the OSHP transitioned from the Beretta 96G pistol to the Sig 226, and from a level I/II holster to a level III retention holster. At the time of that transition, officers were provided with a 2 day transition course to bring them up to speed on the new weapon and holster, at the conclusion of which they shot a qualification, handed over the Beretta, and started carrying the new swag. If you happened to see that video, you can see why the LE community in the state make a collective "Oh God" with regard to the training at the time.

This incident also points out alot of flaws with many civilian and LEO "gun folks" attitude toward carrying a weapon for self defense. Lots of people carry a different defensive weapon for every day of the week, in a different holster, in a different location on their body. I too was once guilty of that as well. Here we saw a case where an officer who trained for two work days on that specific system reverted to the old gear and firearm under stress, and it nearly got him killed.

How many of us spend 16 hours on a draw and reholster, and executing our firearm of choice's manual of arms before we carry it? And that's on our primary firearm. Start throwing extra guns with different manuals of arms in different modes of carry and you can see how people end up as a soup sandwich under stress with their draw.

And Drew, it is fun engaging in intelligent debate with people who can string a thought or two together without resorting to troll-isms. Alot more fun than the way things usually evolve around here. We don't always have to agree, because more often than not there really is more than one way to skin the cat. But everyone stands to learn something when things stay cordial. That makes it fun talking with folks like yourself.

Karbala03
05-13-2010, 10:54
How many of us spend 16 hours on a draw and reholster, and executing our firearm of choice's manual of arms before we carry it? And that's on our primary firearm. Start throwing extra guns with different manuals of arms in different modes of carry and you can see how people end up as a soup sandwich under stress with their draw.

Excellent point. I finally realized this and started carrying my 1911, and ONLY my 1911(it's what I shoot best and am most comfortable with).

PhoneCop
05-13-2010, 15:02
I wonder if he often practices the "Isreali" draw and chamber? Maybe it's a protect the gun thing.

http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/4906/isrealipracticer.png

In another video he did much the same, except at one point he started to speed up and that hand did not manifest over his gun:

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/9946/notwhenfast.png

David Armstrong
05-13-2010, 16:21
The draw stroke itself, and the hand positioning, are not at all appropriate for the Israeli method, so I doubt it.

dosei
05-13-2010, 17:48
After watching several videos with him...I think it's that he talks with his hands. When he "shuts up and does it", his hand position gets better (tight to body, hand in center of body). When he slows down and talks more, he gestures much more with his hands and thus gets his weak hand a bit far across his body.

Maine1
05-13-2010, 19:35
I did not think it was a bad vid for what it was: shot off the cuff on the range.

'Drew and Degoodman, you both brought up really good points. I can tell DGM, that you have spent some time training LE. there is a huge difference in attitude between civilians and LE when it comes to range time, and firearms in general.

Drew, i like that you stated that the draw was not a basic skill, to be taught after saftey and the fundementals were under control.
I had written a lesson plan for a two day CC class, and gave it to an instructor i respected and who is very down to earth.
After he had looked at it a few days, i asked him what he thought. He asked me if it was a week long course, i said no, two days. I included what I'd considered the "basics".
we had a really good conversation of what a "basic" student was in LE Vs Civilian. After a little time on the range with LE, behind the line so to speak... i was a believer.

keep it up guys, i am enjoying your input.

Deaf Smith
05-13-2010, 19:40
There is a reason why I bought a ASP red gun after I started teaching. It eliminates the whole "my gun is empty, see?" time wasting crap. I have spent whole days in the range with a red gun in my holster.

And it allows you to do so much more in class that you would not think of doing with a real gun. Like demonstrating weak hand draws like the roll-over.

I only wish someone would make a Red/blue Glock that took Glock mags and was weighted to feel like a Glock. That way it would also allow you to demonstrate different reload techniques (and practice them to.) And if the slide would cycle that would be just another bonus.

Deaf

NMGlocker
05-13-2010, 19:54
After he had looked at it a few days, i asked him what he thought. He asked me if it was a week long course, i said no, two days. I included what I'd considered the "basics".
we had a really good conversation of what a "basic" student was in LE Vs Civilian. After a little time on the range with LE, behind the line so to speak... i was a believer.
If he went to a 2 day Tactical Response class he'd have a higher opinion of civilians.
End of day two has people drawing strong and weak hand only, shooting on the move and doing 360 degree scans, plus dozens of other "high speed" skills.
LEO's are some of the laziest people I've EVER seen on the range.
90% of them are willfully ignorant of the gun they carry and have zero motivation to improve beyond meeting the minimum qualification score.

Blunt object
05-13-2010, 22:48
Good discussion.
A draw-stroke and presentation are not part of a "basic" firearms shooting course.

Drew, I agree with you that working drawstroke in depth is not part of a very basic "first shot" type of course.

However, when running classes on an outdoor range, the holster is a great safety device to keep guns unhandled and pointing in a relatively safe direction while we transport them from line to line.

Given that, I always coach the vital elements of holster work early on so everyone gets their unloaded guns safely in and out of the holster and also starts ingraining a few of the building blocks of a safe, efficient draw stroke.

The general concepts are, proper firing hand grip is established in the holster, don't muzzle the support hand, establish a two handed grip close to the body and as high as is comfortable, get the gun horizontal early and track straight out to the firing position.

When holstering, safe or decock before holstering, trigger finger off and away from trigger, don't muzzle the support hand, holster slowly to give you a chance to feel any resistance that could cause an unintentional discharge.

This gets a brief lecture/demo and some verbal coaching as they present and holster on the line.

Gallium
05-14-2010, 04:49
Good discussion.


Drew, I agree with you that working draw-stroke in depth is not part of a very basic "first shot" type of course.

However, when running classes on an outdoor range, the holster is a great safety device to keep guns un-handled and pointing in a relatively safe direction while we transport them from line to line.

Given that, I always coach the vital elements of holster work early on so everyone gets their unloaded guns safely in and out of the holster and also starts ingraining a few of the building blocks of a safe, efficient draw stroke.

The general concepts are, proper firing hand grip is established in the holster, don't muzzle the support hand, establish a two handed grip close to the body and as high as is comfortable, get the gun horizontal early and track straight out to the firing position.

When holstering, safe or decock before holstering, trigger finger off and away from trigger, don't muzzle the support hand, holster slowly to give you a chance to feel any resistance that could cause an unintentional discharge.

This gets a brief lecture/demo and some verbal coaching as they present and holster on the line.

Blunt Object,

Yes, this is a great point (using holsters to secure weapons) - admittedly, a format I also use on occasion (used it last week as a matter of fact, and did go over many of the same things you list. :)). Everything you've listed in your methodology is spot on, and dovetails well with what one would teach/present to folks where you're not focused on the dynamic draw.

A few weeks ago I ran a practical course (typically a tune up course for cops, corrections and armed security before annual re-quals), which included un-holstering and holstering...we covered the things you list, and did the drills dry fire a bunch of times, then progressed to running the gun always loaded (decocking/safe to holster contingent on the gun)... Contrasted to last week, where I did a course that specifically did not require use of holster (NRA Personal Protection in the Home Instructor Course). Everyone had holsters, and the bulk of the class was current/retired LE...so the only thing I did different was make them come from, and go to the holster with an unloaded gun.

Even before I got into guns, I've always stressed in my personal & professional life, that there are very few things set in stone. The laws of physics being one of them, death & taxes being another. Certainly, getting someone from where they are to some level of proficiency with running their gun is no different. I've been to more than my fair share of schools (100hrs last year at the instructor level, 160+hrs at the "student" level)...

...most times the goals are the same
...in many (some) instances, the techniques are the same - but in some instances called different things.

Me? I'm on a search for the most efficient way(s) of getting myself, or someone else from Point A >B.

Thanks for your input.


'Drew
:cool:

Maine1
05-14-2010, 05:44
NM, you misunderstood, or i failed to articulate, my point. he was advising caution from his perspective, he has a pretty high opinion of civilian shooters..he was a shooter before he was LE, its why he is a FA instructor.

Yes, IME, LE is pretty lazy in comparison to civvilians. But i do not think that two days will bring a new shooter up to speed, time is needed for them to turn knowledge into skills.
I have seen more probl;ems with attitude with LE than civillians. LE is sometimes" well I do this for a LIVING, and this is the way i have done it for XX years, and its works for me" particularly with saftey issues. If you get on there case about maintenence of skills or the gun itself, its " well, you are paranoid/gun queer, i have been a cop for XX years and never needed a gun" impling all sorts of crap. One of the largest problems with LE IMO, is motivating an unmotivated student.

Civillians- which i consider myself, given the two groups- PAY, and put thier own time into shooting, and WANT to improve, and WANT input on their performance. I have had LE do things i would have kicked someone off my range for. I have seen a civillain have safety issue at a larger shooting academy, and it was adressed forthwith.

I think were are saying the same thing.

Thorazine
05-15-2010, 01:43
Those who responded that the technique is poor...

Would you care to submit a video of your draw technique?

Gallium
05-15-2010, 06:27
Those who responded that the technique is poor...

Would you care to submit a video of your draw technique?


Sir,

I respectfully ask if you've been paying attention to this thread?

The OP posted a video of him drawing, and moving, and shooting, then scanning & re-holstering.

Based on private comments I've made to the OP when he initially posted those videos weeks ago, he acknowledges that my level of training and.or experience is at such a level to be considered on or above par.

Last, I think we've certainly resolved (speaking for the majority here) that it is not so much that his "draw-stroke technique" is poor. It is more than his instructional method in this instance is lacking, probably because this presentation was not very-well rehearsed. For all we know, he was just doing a quick show and tell on the range, and it ended up on you-tube. We also almost universally agreed that there was a bit of "slop" with the actual "gun from holster to on target".

For a whole slew of reasons, I try to avoid posting images of myself in the public domain, and I do not allow viideo capture/recording devices in my classes. As it turns out, when I am a student, the overwhelming majority of the schools I attend also do not allow recording.

'Drew

GlocksterPaulie
05-15-2010, 12:34
Drew,

Thank you for not posting pictures or video of yourself. I think I can speak for almost everyone on GT, we don't want to see pictures of the boogie man.

Paulie:tongueout:

David Armstrong
05-15-2010, 13:53
Those who responded that the technique is poor...
Would you care to submit a video of your draw technique?
Wouldn't mind a bit. Would you like to come up here and film it?

Mamaluke
05-15-2010, 19:24
Not particularly. It is not precisely the drawstroke I teach, but I don't see anything out of the normal parameters with it. I agree with dosei that I don't see any real problem with the off-hand position.

Do you teach close contact and intermediate shooting? Based on your comment I don't think you do. Not being combative...just an observation based on your response. We train numerous officers etc., and none of them are taught the above techniques. They are taught to go 2 handed regardless of distance. That's the case in Los Angeles anyway. Shooting close contact and intermediate with your support hand dangling so close to the muzzle is a recipe for disaster. In any event, shooting with your support hand near the muzzle is a bad idea altogether.

David Armstrong
05-16-2010, 12:59
Do you teach close contact and intermediate shooting? Based on your comment I don't think you do.
Yes, I do, and have been doing so for 30+ years now.

PhoneCop
05-16-2010, 15:23
LEO's are some of the laziest people I've EVER seen on the range.
90% of them are willfully ignorant of the gun they carry and have zero motivation to improve beyond meeting the minimum qualification score.

oh no you diiiint...

:rofl:

PhoneCop
05-16-2010, 15:23
Wouldn't mind a bit. Would you like to come up here and film it?

Dave doesn't know how to run a video camera...

:tongueout:

Gallium
05-16-2010, 18:24
Dave doesn't know how to run a video camera...

:tongueout:


oh no you diiiint...


:whistling:

PhoneCop
05-16-2010, 21:45
oh no you diiiint...


:whistling:

oh yeah I diiii idd.

:rofl:

David Armstrong
05-17-2010, 08:45
Dave doesn't know how to run a video camera...
:tongueout:
Dave doesn't own a video camera. Dave doesn't own a digital camera, come to think of it. Dave still uses a pay as you go cell phone, and does not text message. Dave is not really into a lot of the new technology.:embarassed:

Mamaluke
05-19-2010, 13:39
Yes, I do, and have been doing so for 30+ years now.

Your posts reflect otherwise.

Deaf Smith
05-19-2010, 20:41
david, then how did you ever get your website and blog up? Considering you are supposed to have a Phd. I notice some nice pictures on your blog... After all, you say you took pictures and there they are! So you are not in to 'new' technology?

Deaf

David Armstrong
05-20-2010, 07:51
Your posts reflect otherwise.
Perhaps it is that my posts reflect 30 years of learning that you lack? You might note that in this case it is not just my post that takes the position, but it reflects several others. So perhaps it is your position that is the problem???

David Armstrong
05-20-2010, 07:56
david, then how did you ever get your website and blog up? Considering you are supposed to have a Phd. I notice some nice pictures on your blog... After all, you say you took pictures and there they are! So you are not in to 'new' technology?
Deaf
Actually, deaf, I'm not supposed to havea Ph.D., I do have a Ph.D. Some of this stuff is really easy to check, might save you from silly errors like that. The website is run by the school and I had/have nothing to do with it other than give them information when they ask for it. The blog was set up largely through the assistance of my daughter, and she set it up pretty good, where most of what I do is much like answering e-mail.

Mamaluke
05-20-2010, 21:29
Perhaps it is that my posts reflect 30 years of learning that you lack? You might note that in this case it is not just my post that takes the position, but it reflects several others. So perhaps it is your position that is the problem???

Another internet "expert". If you don't see the flaw with that draw you should give your students their money back. I know a lot of "experts" that have been shooting for "30 years"...length of shooting and teaching does not an expert make. Post a video! I am glad I lack 30 useless years of experience that you proudly wear on your sleeve. BTW, the fact that other "experts" agree with you makes it an even bigger travesty.

Gallium
05-21-2010, 05:09
Another internet "expert". If you don't see the flaw with that draw you should give your students their money back. I know a lot of "experts" that have been shooting for "30 years"...length of shooting and teaching does not an expert make. Post a video! I am glad I lack 30 useless years of experience that you proudly wear on your sleeve. BTW, the fact that other "experts" agree with you makes it an even bigger travesty.

Mamaluke,

ah...**** it. I will send you a PM. :)

'Drew

David Armstrong
05-21-2010, 07:18
BTW, the fact that other "experts" agree with you makes it an even bigger travesty.
Seems your fight would be with them, not me.
If you don't see the flaw with that draw you should give your students their money back.
My students have always had a money back offer if they didn't think the training worthwhile. So far none have asked.

dosei
05-21-2010, 10:23
If he had to shoot close contact or intermediate...say bye to his support hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTpGao06G5I

Overall it's a very sloppy draw...no excuse for such a draw from a self proclaimed instructor. Under stress one defaults to the level of one's training and that is not how you want to train.

Food for thought...

Your example of a "proper" draw and it's superiority for close quarter encounters has a common flaw. In an attempt to eliminate any possible chance of getting one of your digits in front of the muzzle you have endorsed a technique that forces the shooter to expose their chest to the assailant. While this technique may have some degree of usefulness for those who wear level III body armor any time they carry a gun, it is a flawed technique none the less. For the typical non-LEO, it is highly probable that any close quarters encounter that justifies deadly force will involve the assailant being armed with a weapon. So rather than train student to be able to use their weak side hand/arm to deflect an attack & protect themselves in a manor that keeps their hand clear of their muzzle, the OP has opted to train student to instinctively snap into a "Man of Steel / Superman" pose as they begin their draw. This ensures that while they are being stabbed thru their lungs/heart, they can rest assured that there is absolutely no chance that they might accidentally get their pinky in front of their muzzle. And when you come across a different technique, instead of sitting down and asking "what are the advantages/reasons for doing it that way", you simply dismiss it. When you post a link to it so that many others can see the lunacy of the technique and agree with you, only to discover that the vast majority does not have any real issue with what is being demonstrated, you still adamantly refuse to accept the possibility that perhaps there is some merit in this different technique. Even going so far as to insult those who do not take your side.


...indeed...this is how bad techniques are passed on.

Gallium
05-21-2010, 12:33
Food for thought...

Your example of a "proper" draw and it's superiority for close quarter encounters has a common flaw. In an attempt to eliminate any possible chance of getting one of your digits in front of the muzzle you have endorsed a technique that forces the shooter to expose their chest to the assailant. While this technique may have some degree of usefulness for those who wear level III body armor any time they carry a gun, it is a flawed technique none the less. For the typical non-LEO, it is highly probable that any close quarters encounter that justifies deadly force will involve the assailant being armed with a weapon. So rather than train student to be able to use their weak side hand/arm to deflect an attack & protect themselves in a manor that keeps their hand clear of their muzzle, the OP has opted to train student to instinctively snap into a "Man of Steel / Superman" pose as they begin their draw.
This ensures that while they are being stabbed thru their lungs/heart, they can rest assured that there is absolutely no chance that they might accidentally get their pinky in front of their muzzle. And when you come across a different technique, instead of sitting down and asking "what are the advantages/reasons for doing it that way", you simply dismiss it. When you post a link to it so that many others can see the lunacy of the technique and agree with you, only to discover that the vast majority does not have any real issue with what is being demonstrated, ....




you still adamantly refuse to accept the possibility that perhaps there is some merit in this different technique.




Even going so far as to insult those who do not take your side.
...indeed...this is how bad techniques are passed on.


I can see this from your perspective, as well as mamaluke's. You (or degoodman) may have voiced this before - if I were going to demonstrate s shooting technique or position, you can bet I'm going to rehearse it enough times until it's smooth as I can get it. If it's going to video, I am going to put even more time in on the front end, and if the final product is not to my liking, I'm not making the video public.

I honestly don't know who the gentleman is in the initial video (but I expect he's going to show up here any second now! :)). I am not overall pleased with his

1. Instructional technique - if indeed, he is a bona-fide instructor.
2. His technique - if he's "just" a shooter demonstrating a process to someone else.

I agree SOMEWHAT with mamaluke that his instructional technique is flawed. Is it critical? I dunno, only time will tell. I've seen horrible shooters survive gunfights, and a really proficient shooter /trainer/instructor who was in 8+ gun fights, and survived being shot multiple times on multiple occasions come 2nd in what most of us here would view as a not very overly complicated situation. (Kingston, Jamaica)

There are no hard and fast rules for everything, but we have enough of a body of knowledge to know when things are not efficient, effective or for the largest # of units under the bell curve, SAFE.

I would not demonstrate presentation from a holster how this fellow did.

Dosei, I am not rising to mamaluke's defense...but you cannot (should not, as I should not, as none of us should! :)) take demonstration, or the subsequent analysis of a shooting technique to extrapolate this to cover anything more than it's intended purpose. The presentation of a handgun from a retention device to a two handed grip is not meant to cover MOST, or even the majority of the more common shooting scenarios, unless you are a uniformed officer, and even then, when we look at a bunch of LE shootings, there is a lot of deviation from what we'd like to consider "the script".
I teach to access the gun from retention with strong hand, both hands, weak hand, with incapacitation, from a seated position (movie theatre/restaurant/car belted in), while getting someone off you, while getting someone off someone else, from being knocked on your ass/etc, while doing an evac, etc.
Let's not look at this one video in isolation and make the assumption that any of us here are prescribing this process works for any majority of "get the gun" scenarios.


That part of your response I double quoted (for some weird reason it won't highlight or bold!) - what are the merits of the technique presented in the video, compared and contrasted to the video that mamaluke posted of himself? Essentially, they are the same - "get the gun out, ending up with a two handed grip." In what ways is the original video "better" than what mamaluke has posted?

thank you sir.
'Drew

NMGlocker
05-21-2010, 13:12
it's OBVIOUS who's done force on force training and who hasn't.
If you train against live opponents you learn real quick that you cannot always prevent taking damage but you can influence where that damage is inflicted.
If you are face to face with someone who is trying to shank you, guess what... you're probably going to get shanked and possibly shoot your yourself.
That is reality.
You can either take the shanking and self inflicted gunshot in your weak arm or you can take the shanking in your chest and the gunshot into your body.
Myself, I'll raise my non-gun arm into a defensive blocking position and take the cuts and possibly a self inflicted gunshot to that arm. The other option is to expose your chest to the shanking and expose you gun hand to being grabbed/steered and the gunshot going who knows where..

Gallium
05-21-2010, 13:35
it's OBVIOUS who's done force on force training and who hasn't.
If you train against live opponents you learn real quick that you cannot always prevent taking damage but you can influence where that damage is inflicted.
If you are face to face with someone who is trying to shank you, guess what... you're probably going to get shanked and possibly shoot your yourself.
That is reality.
You can either take the shanking and self inflicted gunshot in your weak arm or you can take the shanking in your chest and the gunshot into your body.
Myself, I'll raise my non-gun arm into a defensive blocking position and take the cuts and possibly a self inflicted gunshot to that arm. The other option is to expose your chest to the shanking and expose you gun hand to being grabbed/steered and the gunshot going who knows where..

Force of force TRAINING, you say, eh? :supergrin: Funny you should mention that. I've been in some real force on force real life crap. :cool:

I've been stabbed three times (in one instance, it looked real sketchy), and been in more real knife-fights than shoes I own, and stabbed real folks with real knifes and ice-picks more time than I'm going to admit on a public forum. :)


And yes, I've done formal "force on force" training as well (I think just for ****s and giggles I'm going to pick up my FoF instructor certification in June 2010), in addition to a slew of other training with guns, martial arts, edged weapons & blunt weapons I can't be bothered with mentioning on public forums.


'Drew

dosei
05-21-2010, 14:13
That part of your response I double quoted (for some weird reason it won't highlight or bold!) - what are the merits of the technique presented in the video, compared and contrasted to the video that mamaluke posted of himself? Essentially, they are the same - "get the gun out, ending up with a two handed grip." In what ways is the original video "better" than what mamaluke has posted?

thank you sir.
'Drew

Below is a capture of Mamaluke as he draws. Notice where his elbows are (and thus where his hands must be).

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i170/dosei/MamalukeDraw.jpg

His weak hand is conditioned to mirror the movements of his strong hand. This habit results in the "Man of Steel" position.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i170/dosei/superman_shirt_rip.jpg

Fully unprotected frontal exposure. Lungs, heart, throat, everything gets exposed and slightly thrust forward.

Now, when Mamaluke demonstrates a 180 pivoting draw, he changes up the drill for his weak hand...this time bringing it to his chest.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i170/dosei/MamalukeDraw-01.jpg
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i170/dosei/MamalukeDraw-02.jpg <<< (OMG! He's going to shoot his hand!)

I suspect he changes his draw on 180 pivots so that his weak hand gets out of the way of the muzzle (seems to be a minor obsession, which is good as long as a person still stays open-minded). But if he practiced the same draw he does for 180 pivots...when he is just drawing close quarters...he would still have his weak hand in a safe place away from the muzzle BUT well placed to protect his vitals (in the first picture anyway). After all, someone is trying to kill him with a weapon...right?

dosei
05-21-2010, 15:04
it's OBVIOUS who's done force on force training and who hasn't.
If you train against live opponents you learn real quick that you cannot always prevent taking damage but you can influence where that damage is inflicted.
If you are face to face with someone who is trying to shank you, guess what... you're probably going to get shanked and possibly shoot your yourself.
That is reality.
You can either take the shanking and self inflicted gunshot in your weak arm or you can take the shanking in your chest and the gunshot into your body.
Myself, I'll raise my non-gun arm into a defensive blocking position and take the cuts and possibly a self inflicted gunshot to that arm. The other option is to expose your chest to the shanking and expose you gun hand to being grabbed/steered and the gunshot going who knows where..

Actually, the "other option" is training to never cross the 2nd nipple with your weak hand. Place your hand/fist on your sternum. You can "have you cake & eat it too"...in other words you can keep your weak hand clear of the muzzle and still have it in front of your vitals to block/deflect an incoming attack.

degoodman
05-21-2010, 22:48
Do you teach close contact and intermediate shooting? Based on your comment I don't think you do. Not being combative...just an observation based on your response. We train numerous officers etc., and none of them are taught the above techniques. They are taught to go 2 handed regardless of distance. That's the case in Los Angeles anyway. Shooting close contact and intermediate with your support hand dangling so close to the muzzle is a recipe for disaster. In any event, shooting with your support hand near the muzzle is a bad idea altogether.

See, your way actually smacks of someone that's never trained someone in CQB or close contact shooting. Going two handed regardless of distance is the recipe for disaster. At close contact, you probably don't have time to shoot two handed. Additionally, bringing the pistol forward to the point you can get two hands on it is extending the opposition an open invitation to take the weapon away from you, more than just having it out at contact distance already creates the possibility. And of course, we've mentioned over and over at this point that if you need to shoot somebody at contact ranges, they're probably doing something that makes it as necessary to block / delfect their blows, cuts or shots to your head, neck and chest if you plan on living long enough to deliver return gunfire.

I mentioned it once before. I teach a 5 point draw. However, germaine to combative shooting, once you've accomplished step 3, which is to rotate the gun to the target, everything else is gravy. If your technique is good, you will be capable of shooting at the point you've rotated the gun on target, and if the situation is bad enough to need to draw a gun, it may be a really good idea to start shooting then too, before you get two hands on the gun, bring it up towards your line of sight or anything else.

A final point I'll make, and this comes after the draw more than during it, is that in a CQB fight, my first bullet, and maybe all my bullets, will be going in the perp's gut, not his chest. to get the gun somewhere I can shoot him in the chest requires putting it somewhere its easy for him to touch, and hard for me to hang on to if he does. If I shoot him in the belly I'm not putting the gun where he can get to it easily, and I have a better chance of hanging on to it if he does touch it. Finally, if I'm doing hand combatives, more often than not I'm defending my head and neck first, and my chest second. That puts the off hand high, and if I shoot low, I'm not going to hit it.

Actually, the "other option" is training to never cross the 2nd nipple with your weak hand. Place your hand/fist on your sternum. You can "have you cake & eat it too"...in other words you can keep your weak hand clear of the muzzle and still have it in front of your vitals to block/deflect an incoming attack.

This.

I'm not saying that shooting yourself in the weak hand is a good idea. But if its a choice between that or taking a knife cut to the weak arm, and taking a knife cut to the throat or chest while I'm trying to get two hands on my gun, I'll take the weak hand wounds. Dosei and I have both described techniques to minimize the chances of self inflicted problems, and having the weak hand up and fighting is what keeps you from taking fatal strikes to your own head and neck in CQB.

Mamaluke
05-24-2010, 08:59
Below is a capture of Mamaluke as he draws. Notice where his elbows are (and thus where his hands must be).

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i170/dosei/MamalukeDraw.jpg

His weak hand is conditioned to mirror the movements of his strong hand. This habit results in the "Man of Steel" position.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i170/dosei/superman_shirt_rip.jpg

Fully unprotected frontal exposure. Lungs, heart, throat, everything gets exposed and slightly thrust forward.

Now, when Mamaluke demonstrates a 180 pivoting draw, he changes up the drill for his weak hand...this time bringing it to his chest.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i170/dosei/MamalukeDraw-01.jpg
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i170/dosei/MamalukeDraw-02.jpg <<< (OMG! He's going to shoot his hand!)

I suspect he changes his draw on 180 pivots so that his weak hand gets out of the way of the muzzle (seems to be a minor obsession, which is good as long as a person still stays open-minded). But if he practiced the same draw he does for 180 pivots...when he is just drawing close quarters...he would still have his weak hand in a safe place away from the muzzle BUT well placed to protect his vitals (in the first picture anyway). After all, someone is trying to kill him with a weapon...right?

The support hand will react depending on the threat. It may be a block or a thrust. This is just one of many applications. BTW, my support hand is at the sternum on every "straight" draw (unless the situation demands a strike/block). The angle might be deceiving.

Mamaluke
05-24-2010, 09:06
See, your way actually smacks of someone that's never trained someone in CQB or close contact shooting. Going two handed regardless of distance is the recipe for disaster. At close contact, you probably don't have time to shoot two handed. Additionally, bringing the pistol forward to the point you can get two hands on it is extending the opposition an open invitation to take the weapon away from you, more than just having it out at contact distance already creates the possibility. And of course, we've mentioned over and over at this point that if you need to shoot somebody at contact ranges, they're probably doing something that makes it as necessary to block / delfect their blows, cuts or shots to your head, neck and chest if you plan on living long enough to deliver return gunfire.

I mentioned it once before. I teach a 5 point draw. However, germaine to combative shooting, once you've accomplished step 3, which is to rotate the gun to the target, everything else is gravy. If your technique is good, you will be capable of shooting at the point you've rotated the gun on target, and if the situation is bad enough to need to draw a gun, it may be a really good idea to start shooting then too, before you get two hands on the gun, bring it up towards your line of sight or anything else.

A final point I'll make, and this comes after the draw more than during it, is that in a CQB fight, my first bullet, and maybe all my bullets, will be going in the perp's gut, not his chest. to get the gun somewhere I can shoot him in the chest requires putting it somewhere its easy for him to touch, and hard for me to hang on to if he does. If I shoot him in the belly I'm not putting the gun where he can get to it easily, and I have a better chance of hanging on to it if he does touch it. Finally, if I'm doing hand combatives, more often than not I'm defending my head and neck first, and my chest second. That puts the off hand high, and if I shoot low, I'm not going to hit it.



This.

I'm not saying that shooting yourself in the weak hand is a good idea. But if its a choice between that or taking a knife cut to the weak arm, and taking a knife cut to the throat or chest while I'm trying to get two hands on my gun, I'll take the weak hand wounds. Dosei and I have both described techniques to minimize the chances of self inflicted problems, and having the weak hand up and fighting is what keeps you from taking fatal strikes to your own head and neck in CQB.

Read my post closely please. I said policemen are taught 2 handed draws regardless of distance...not by us. The support hand obviously reacts t the threat in accordance to it...it blocks strikes etc. The person in the video I posted is teaching the draw with his support hand in front of the muzzle. Surprising to see how many "experts" agree with his draw method. My video is just a sample execution of the draw...no strike or block.