BB bird shot for home defense??? [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : BB bird shot for home defense???


itstime
05-16-2010, 16:53
What is your opinion on BB size shot for home defense? Just asking cause I have some and loaded it up.

Any pro/cons to it compared to OO buckshot? Thanks.

F_G
05-16-2010, 17:50
Pro - Not as much mass, therefore not as much penetration

Cons - Not as much mass, therefore not as much penetration

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1220524

Anything smaller than 00 buck at approximately the same velocity will not have the ability to penetrate such things as clothing, drapes, bone, sinew, muscle and therefore will not reliably reach vital areas with enough energy to stop an aggressor's agressiveness.

mixflip
05-16-2010, 18:20
At close range even BB shot is still very fatal. I still wouldnt consciously decide to use it for self defense though. As a last ditch option? Sure. Its better than using a knife or a baseball bat I guess?

Artiz
05-16-2010, 21:18
Remember that your average home invader isn't naked, he's wearing clothes, birdshot won't make much damage, just give him a very good reason to end your days in a hurry.

mixflip
05-16-2010, 22:01
I am not advocating using birdshot for home defense at all. But if SHTF and thats all you had for some strange reason??? Birdshot will do some severe damage to the head and neck region (at close range of course).

Here is what birdshot does to 2 layers of drywall which is thicker than your average t-shirt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQngI_r2hQc&playnext_from=TL&videos=GrHa4-q9wyc

Again DO NOT USE BIRD SHOT for self defense! But also dont think just wearing clothing is gonna save your life if you are on the receiving end of birdshot "at close range".

mitchshrader
05-16-2010, 22:11
I just wonder if anyone has done any research personally, or just repeating hearsay.

I'm bad about repeating hearsay, but I try to keep it on the topic of attractive women.

Shotguns are even more dangerous, sometimes.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958

Scroll down about 4-5 examples and you'll be at 2 3/4" Remington lead BB shot..

And under 10 yards, summer.. it ain't hardly birdshot at all, insofar as survivability is concerned. Borderline, yes.. but don't you WANT borderline compared to OOO ? Or isn't that the point?

2 3/4" vs 3" matters. Muzzle velocity matters. Distance matters. Choke on the shotgun matters. Lead vs Steel BB's (vs HeviShot tungsten) matters.

Granpa's 70 year old riot gun, cylinder bore, 2 3/4" standard velocity, 1 oz lead BB shot, is lethal @ 7 yards with a frontal torso (COM) direct hit, on an unarmored adult male.

sez me. yer welcome to prove otherwise, I like learning new things.

and fwiw I recommend #4 buckshot indoors & #1 Buckshot for general rural yard work, keep 1 oz slugs in mine and don't task it for HD. Vehicle penetration is what it's for, and the one chance in thousands I'd need it for that.

But if you think a dose of BB's point blank isn't lethal in a 12 gauge, you're misled.

method
05-16-2010, 22:30
If all you have on hand is BB, it should work. I cannot understand why people always want to reinvent the wheel concerning shotgun ammo though, considering 00 buck is probably easier to find than the larger birdshot sizes.

mixflip
05-17-2010, 00:45
Agreed, 00-buck and a pump shotgun are both available in every state and in probably every WalMart or hunting store? Its 50 year old technology that works. There really is no need to reinvent the wheel.

As they say...learn to run what ya brung.

Aceman
05-17-2010, 06:26
#4 to 00 buck. Preferably, 00. Low recoil or regular.

That is the consensus - meaning most people will agree that it is effective. Not too much, not too little.

You'll find some wing nut that will believe anything can work, or has one off the wall freak of nature example where something odd did work. No birdshot first shot, 3" slugs, alternating rounds, ball plus buck, Rhodesian, flechette, or any of that crap.

For HD - play the odds. Go with what works. Without question.

#4 to 00 buck. Preferably, 00. Low recoil or regular.

cj5mrt
05-17-2010, 08:37
"I just wonder if anyone has done any research personally, or just repeating hearsay."

Go to theboxotruth.com

LOTS of info there.

Mike

F_G
05-17-2010, 09:00
"I just wonder if anyone has done any research personally, or just repeating hearsay."There is a lot of empirical data on shootings involving 00 and slug as this is what the majority of law enforcement agencies use. Kind of difficult for me to perfrom my own research as I have a hard time finding people allowing me to shoot them.

Most of my conclusions are derived from this data and the application of simple physics. It's cool to watch some guy shoot through drywall and see how far it goes, but I fail to see how that equates to the ability of the round to stop an aggressor. Might however help you decide what to deploy if penetrating or not penetrating through walls is your objective.

To the OP, if BB is all you have it is far better than nothing, but if I am standing at the ammo counter trying to decide what to buy, it would not be my first choice, or second, or third................

MTPD
05-17-2010, 12:22
I'm living part of the year in an RV park and wanted to switch to birdshot so as not to penetrate any other RV's if the BG's show up. But.........I couldn't find any BB shot shells on the shelves, which is what I wanted. #4 lead was the biggest in lead, and #3 in steel. I consider both to be too ineffective on BG's, so got a box of 4 Buck as a compromise.

However, I'd think lead BB's would do fine on BG's out to 10 yards or so (i.e., inside of your home). But I'd only use them if there was a concern about over-penetration.

At my country home, where there aren't any close neighbors, I use OO & OOO Buck.

I've actually tested a goodly number of buckshot shells, different brands, different sizes, etc. The results, for best penetration and tightest paterns they rank as follows: 000, 00, 0, 4. I assume birdshot will do the same = biggest lead shot with give best penetration and tightest paterns. Steel shot will penetrate less than the same size lead.

dc2integra
05-17-2010, 20:39
birdshot is a no no if someones invades your home your better off using buck slug buck slug etc u dont want someone sueing u for u hurting them when they invade your home

marlinfan
05-17-2010, 20:49
birdshot is a no no if someones invades your home your better off using buck slug buck slug etc u dont want someone sueing u for u hurting them when they invade your homehttp://www.w3bbo.com/forums/Blank-Facepalm.gif

Aceman
05-17-2010, 20:50
As with all ammo - anything with any kind of effective BG stopping power, will over penetrate. You have to make your choice: definite stopping and possible over penetration, or possible stopping and unlikely overpenetration.

Not that last example - you can still over penterate AND not stop the BG!

Z71bill
05-17-2010, 22:21
0 buck or 000 buck is better than 00 buck:upeyes:

00 buck just has better marketing - don't believe the hype - get 0 or 000 buck -

:tongueout:

All joking aside - this is real

You want 12 .32 diameter lead balls - 0 buck

or 9 .33 diameter lead balls 00 buck

or 8 .36 diameter lead balls

I use 0 buck

David Armstrong
05-18-2010, 09:55
For HD - play the odds. Go with what works. Without question.
#4 to 00 buck. Preferably, 00. Low recoil or regular.
Yes, what he said. Go with what works most of the time in most of the situations instead of what works every now and then in some of the situations.

GAFinch
05-18-2010, 15:10
If all you have on hand is BB, it should work. I cannot understand why people always want to reinvent the wheel concerning shotgun ammo though, considering 00 buck is probably easier to find than the larger birdshot sizes.

I'm living part of the year in an RV park and wanted to switch to birdshot so as not to penetrate any other RV's if the BG's show up. But.........I couldn't find any BB shot shells on the shelves, which is what I wanted. #4 lead was the biggest in lead, and #3 in steel. I consider both to be too ineffective on BG's, so got a box of 4 Buck as a compromise.

However, I'd think lead BB's would do fine on BG's out to 10 yards or so (i.e., inside of your home). But I'd only use them if there was a concern about over-penetration.

At my country home, where there aren't any close neighbors, I use OO & OOO Buck.

I've actually tested a goodly number of buckshot shells, different brands, different sizes, etc. The results, for best penetration and tightest paterns they rank as follows: 000, 00, 0, 4. I assume birdshot will do the same = biggest lead shot with give best penetration and tightest paterns. Steel shot will penetrate less than the same size lead.

At Academy Sports, Remington has a Home Defense display set up with BB shot on the shotgun side.

ScrappyDoo
05-18-2010, 15:58
Buck Shot for Bad Guys, Bird Shot for Birdies...

http://www.chuckhawks.com/home_defense_shotgun_ammo.htm

method
05-18-2010, 16:10
At Academy Sports, Remington has a Home Defense display set up with BB shot on the shotgun side.


Great, at what, $25 per 10 rd box? S&B 00 can be had for a quarter of that.

Great marketing ploy though.

M1Garand
05-18-2010, 16:40
Buck shots or slugs. Unless Big Bird is invading your home, bird shots are for the birds.

stiletto raggio
05-19-2010, 15:43
I have and would definitely use 5/0 shot from B&P. It is a little bigger than BB (about the equivalent diameter of T shot, but lead) and patterns nice and tight at HD distances. For the record, BB and larger shot is a very different load than the birdshot most people think of (6-8 shot).

Home defense is NOT combat. If you are a cop and will likely be using a shotgun outside the confines of your home, buckshot makes a lot of sense. If you are looking for stuff to stock up on for SHTF situations, go with OO buck. But if you think that blasting through several interior walls is a good thing for home defense, I strongly disagree, and slugs inside a home are a bad idea period.

If you want a round that splits the difference, number 4 buck is the way to go.

stopatrain
05-19-2010, 15:47
I would not use it. I want to stop the threat now.

rigjumpr
05-19-2010, 15:52
I do have #7 in the moss but it's followed by 00 and slug, repeat.

stiletto raggio
05-19-2010, 16:03
BB is the shot size down from #4 buckshot, and I would recommend #4 as the largest size to use indoors. Box of truth states that "In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs." I would like to see those tests. If you are close--and in a home defense scenario you will be--number should be quite effective. 27 pellets in a four inch circle impacting at 1200+ FPS doesn't seem like a "little birdy" load to me.

Also, the anecdote he provides is about #6 shot, not BB, and you can see fromt he chart that they are quite different in size and weight.

MrMurphy
05-20-2010, 11:11
If it's what's at hand and available, use it, but don't expect a first shot "nuclear detonation" instant stop.

I have seen guys hit by birdshot who could easily have continued the fight. I've seen guys attempt suicide with shotgun/birdshot to the head and fail. They're really not happy campers now with half their face gone.


That said, it CAN AND DOES work, but if the guy's wearing heavier clothing, or is at a bit of a distance, or if the pellets hit a rib......etc etc.

Load 00 or 000 or 0 buck, or No.4 Buck if you have any choice in the matter.

Aceman
05-20-2010, 20:07
Buck shots or slugs. Unless Big Bird is invading your home, bird shots are for the birds.

Have you seen the size of big bird? I'm thinking definitely buck for him. Maybe 3". And definitely slugs for his buddy Mr Snuffleupugus.

jp 19
05-20-2010, 22:02
Have you seen the size of big bird? I'm thinking definitely buck for him. Maybe 3". And definitely slugs for his buddy Mr Snuffleupugus.

oh hell ya... and two to the chest and one to the head...:yawn: sorry i am tired. i shouldnt post when i am tired... i can ramble on and on and on... when i am tired ... anybody else ramble on and on and on when they are tired... i do know few people that will ramble on and on and on when they are tired ... just blab blab blab lots of words but just nonsense ... i find it really annoying when people dont shut up when they have nothing to say so i will just shut up i aint the kind of guy to go on and on and on about nothing i know when to shut my pie hole... i hope all you do too..... i am tired i ramble when i am tired:faint:

GreyEclipse
05-21-2010, 01:51
What is your opinion on BB size shot for home defense? Just asking cause I have some and loaded it up.

Any pro/cons to it compared to OO buckshot? Thanks.

lol, no...

I mean you can use it and it can work but it probably won't. :supergrin:

PzGren
05-21-2010, 03:57
I had lived several years in Haiti where 12 gauge shotguns are quite frequent, just about as frequent as crime and shootings. Most common load was birdshot, or a rabbit and squirrel load.

Has anyone here that posted in the thread ever seen a person that was hit in the face with birdshot at, what is usually considered, self defense distance?

The person that took the birdshot that I have seen will not look to steal other goods, simply because he lost his eyesight. And oh yeah, he seemed to be in a lot of pain, too.

David Armstrong
05-21-2010, 07:24
Has anyone here that posted in the thread ever seen a person that was hit in the face with birdshot at, what is usually considered, self defense distance?
That is a best-case issue, and it works there. But we rarely get best case situations, and that is why most recommend against the use of birdshot. Ther distance might be a little far, the shot might not hit the face, etc.

DeltaNu1142
05-21-2010, 07:27
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958
This is GREAT. Bookmarked.

PzGren
05-21-2010, 08:31
That is a best-case issue, and it works there. But we rarely get bast case situations, and that is why most recommend against the use of birdshot. Ther distance might be a little far, the shot might not hit the face, etc.

Have you ever patterned your shotgun? Bird shot will cover the facial area out to 10 yards - and beyond. The shock from the pellets hitting the head is not to be underrated.

If you really want positive stopping power in a wide range of distances, get a battle rifle and forget who's behind your target.

ScrappyDoo
05-21-2010, 10:25
Or just do the right thing and use buckshot? It's really that simple.

m24shooter
05-21-2010, 13:30
Have you ever patterned your shotgun? Bird shot will cover the facial area out to 10 yards - and beyond.
Have you ever patterned your shotgun on a small moving target on top of another moving target in the dark and under the stress of a lethal force situation? There may be a difference.
The shock from the pellets hitting the head is not to be underrated.
Nor should it be overrated:
http://www.click2houston.com/news/13743208/detail.html
ATASCOCITA, Texas -- A homeowner shot a man who broke into his Atascocita home early Tuesday, officials told KPRC Local 2.
Harris County Precinct 4 deputy constables said the homeowner's wife heard a noise outside their home on Devlin Drive near Match Play Drive at about 2:45 a.m.
"There is a man in my house," the homeowner said. "I don't know if he's coming to do us harm."
Detectives said the man, who is partially blind and hearing impaired, appeared to be intoxicated.
The homeowner said he found the men standing in the entryway.
"I don't know how he got in the front door," the homeowner said. "The front door was secure. The alarm was on."
The man claimed the home was his and argued with the homeowner, officials said.
"I didn't want to talk to him or anything," the homeowner said. "Stop. Get down. He didn't. He came toward me and then I had to protect my family."
Investigators said the homeowner shot the man.
"The homeowner discharged one round from a shotgun with a birdshot, giving the intruder a superficial wound to the side of the head," Lt. Michael Young said.
Deputies said the man lives in the area and this was not the first time he has entered a wrong house.
"Apparently this individual has done this before, based on some statements from his family members," Young said.
The man, believed to be in his 40s, was transported to Memorial Hermann Hospital with a non-life-threatening injury.
Investigators have not said what charges the man may face. No charges are expected to be filed against the homeowner.
The homeowner, his wife and two daughters were not injured.
If you really want positive stopping power in a wide range of distances, get a battle rifle and forget who's behind your target.
Or, you could use buckshot.

ScrappyDoo
05-21-2010, 15:28
Guys I don't mean to insult some... because even some of the ppl I'd call a doosh on this board/thread have PhD's... but here are the facts.

Bird Shot DOES NOT "ACT LIKE A MASS" at close range. It is physics. I am smart enough to remember my physics honors in HS and basic in college but not smart enough to fully explain it. I THINK it was in Shotgunworld where a very very smart poster, maybe a Physics professor etc. actually broke it down in a series of posts in both completely scientific facts and convertible laymen terms for those un-educated or simply unable to understand...

but anyway it's not an opinion... no matter what you think or feel or etc... Bird Shot DOES NOT act as a mass, etc, does not kill or work like buckshot. its a matter of physics. you can tell me all you want what you think / have seen / etc. but its a fact.

And no offense but saying you shot someone in the fact with bird**** in Haiti,and he ran away blind, not to rob again, am I the only one who thinks that in reality thats the perfect reason NOT TO USE BIRD SHOT? *** HE GETS SHOT IN THE FACT, AND RUNS AWAY????**** That's a major problem!!!!!!! There is only ONE REASON in both law and practicality to pull the trigger.... it's to use deadly force TO END THE LIFE of whom is threatening to end YOUR LIFE.... if you are using something that WILL NOT DO THAT, ***ESPECIALLY KNOWINGLY AND SHOWING OFF THAT FACT****, you should not only NOT BE FIRING, you should maybe rethink your qualification and reasons for possessing firearms especially something as deadly and designed to be deadly as a 12 guage shotgun....

ScrappyDoo
05-21-2010, 15:32
and let me say... I LOVE LOVE LOVE To buy the Dick's Sporting Goods sales of 25-round birdshot, 7, 7 1/2, and 8 shot Birdshot Remington green packs of shotgun shells for $ bucks.

And my Mossberg 930 SPX and Benelli Supernova both love them (And I'm quite certain I have two excellent quality and famous shotguns, of both different design).... and I load up on them, shoot them, even keep a few on the side saddles, belt , and bandoleer...and would not hesitate for a minute to bust caps of birdshot or any other 12 gauge ammo in an emergency situation ESPECIALLY NOT in SHTF....

I just would not even consider it a HD solution or primary defense shell/etc. And my reason for this is clearly supported by scientific facts.

PzGren
05-21-2010, 20:34
And no offense but saying you shot someone in the fact with bird**** in Haiti,and he ran away blind, not to rob again, am I the only one who thinks that in reality thats the perfect reason NOT TO USE BIRD SHOT? *** HE GETS SHOT IN THE FACT, AND RUNS AWAY????**** That's a major problem!!!!!!! There is only ONE REASON in both law and practicality to pull the trigger.... it's to use deadly force TO END THE LIFE of whom is threatening to end YOUR LIFE.... if you are using something that WILL NOT DO THAT, ***ESPECIALLY KNOWINGLY AND SHOWING OFF THAT FACT****, you should not only NOT BE FIRING, you should maybe rethink your qualification and reasons for possessing firearms especially something as deadly and designed to be deadly as a 12 guage shotgun....

Have you ever patterned your shotgun on a small moving target on top of another moving target in the dark and under the stress of a lethal force situation? There may be a difference.

.


Where in the world did I say that he ran away, he was blind, on the ground and absolutely out of any fight.

The pattern of a shotgun does not change with lighting conditions, or stress, the ability to act aim changes but even with buckshot a miss is possible.

m24shooter
05-22-2010, 07:29
The pattern of a shotgun does not change with lighting conditions, or stress,
That is precisely my point. The pattern has to be put onto a part of the target in which it will have an effect. Your preferred target is small.
the ability to act aim changes but even with buckshot a miss is possible.
However, under your construct the pattern has to be put onto a small moving target mounted to another moving target with other factors coming into play as well in order for bird shot to even have a chance of being effective.
With buck shot, you have a much larger target area onto which the pattern can be aimed. Which is easier to hit: the torso or the head?
You asked about someone patterning their shotgun-that's only half the issue here.

David Armstrong
05-22-2010, 13:21
Have you ever patterned your shotgun?
Of course. But knowing how your gun patterns is a completely different thing than getting that pattern where you want it.
The shock from the pellets hitting the head is not to be underrated.
Being hit in the face by a thrown baseball is not to be underrated either, but I don't know that I would suggest it as a particularly good defensive tactic.
If you really want positive stopping power in a wide range of distances, get a battle rifle and forget who's behind your target.
That certainly is an option, but the thread is concerning shotguns and home defense.

aippi
05-22-2010, 16:02
I read these type threads for entertainment. This topic gets a lot of coverage on sites like this. The best comments are the ones about bird shoot not penatrating clothing. So, for ****s and giggles I decided to try something. I don't have a big bowl of Jello like some guys (nor have I ever felt threatened by Jello) but I had a section of a standard home steel exterior door. I had cut it out years ago to install a K-9 door for Captain Powell.

I took this panel, steel on both sides with a styrofoam core, just like most of us have and a 12ga Winchester Universal #7 1/2 shot, yep the cheapest mess you can buy. I backed off 20 feet. Well my 870 is 3 feet long or so so lets call it 17 feet. What would be a normal HD shot in you home? I shot the door panel.

I am to stupid to know how to load a picture on this site but I will e-mail one to anyone interested. I will tell you this. A human would have a poor chance to survive that if hit in the chest. It pentrated the first sheet of steel on the door and some shot raised the back panel but did not penatrate. I think if I would have used #6 shot and a regular game load it would have. I don't have any more door panels but would love to try it.

I don't use bird shot for HD but if that was all I had then god help the SOB that made me use it.

j-glock22
05-22-2010, 16:11
Somewhere here on GT there is a very informative thread on different shotty loads, and why birdshot is NOT advised for defense, and may get you mugged or killed.

Aceman
05-22-2010, 20:34
Or, as has been said before...we could just use buck shot.

This is like the value of a .22 for SD. Yes - it WILL work. It has and there will always be anecdotal examples of the one that did work. But for the most part - it IS NOT RELIABLY effective. That means most of the time most of the people shot with it a) don't get dead b) don't stop c) may not even slow down.

I'm pretty sure someone taking birdshot to the face from where I'm sitting to my sliding glass door is going to be in rough shape. I KNOW anyone taking buck to the torso from this distance is DONE. And I'm pretty confident I can put the buck on the torso. Bird to the head...not so much.

Syclone538
05-22-2010, 23:37
As you are making a post, scroll down to and click on "Manage Attachments", click "browse", find the pic on your computer, click "open", "upload", scroll down to and click on "close this window", then submit reply .

aippi
05-23-2010, 14:20
Thanks for trying to help an idiot learn to post a pic but it says my attachment exceed my quota and will not work. Maybe the pictures to big but I don't know how to make it smaller either.

dc2integra
05-23-2010, 14:31
dont worry aippi i have the same problem i cant post any pics it says i exceeded my limit

fiasconva
05-23-2010, 14:38
We have a resident expert here on GATE. Go there and ask him. But I doubt he'll recommend bb's.

Edmo01
05-23-2010, 15:42
I don't think anyone would want to be shot with either birdshot or buckshot, however I've got 00 buckshot in my Mossberg.

I'll let the BG contain any overpenetration...

Edmo

PeteCamp
05-23-2010, 16:23
I don't have a big bowl of Jello like some guys (nor have I ever felt threatened by Jello) but I had a section of a standard home steel exterior door.
So you have never felt threatened by a bowl of Jello, but you might get attacked by a door panel? :whistling:

And since you have actually used a shotgun with such a load on a human being you can say for certain that your little experiment indicates the effective performance of birdshot in human flesh? You're so confident that you're willing to bet not only your life on it, but the lives of your family as well? Defending lives is not about odds, it's about stakes.

With all due respect, neither is it about ****s and giggles.

ScrappyDoo
05-23-2010, 17:58
You can't explain things to people who aren't smart. Money, talk , etc. Can't make you smart. Sad bud true n

Syclone538
05-23-2010, 21:44
Thanks for trying to help an idiot learn to post a pic but it says my attachment exceed my quota and will not work. Maybe the pictures to big but I don't know how to make it smaller either.

I was able to have 3 pics from a phone camera, but if your camera is top of the line one pic might be above the limit.

Close to the top of every page on the left is "User CP", click on that, then scroll down to "Attachments" on the left, should be the 2nd to last one, click on that and above a red and green, or maybe solid green bar, that page should say, "You are currently using XX.X KB to store X uploaded attachments." What are the X's, and what color is the bar? If the X's = 0, and the bar is solid green, your pic is too big.

ArtificialGrape
05-23-2010, 22:25
BB may get 'em dead. Or it may just get 'em mad and ugly.

As others have said, go with the odds. If that's all you have, the odds are that BB is better than nothing.

MTPD
05-28-2010, 06:51
At Academy Sports, Remington has a Home Defense display set up with BB shot on the shotgun side.

Not here, or at least not about a month ago when Academy Sports didn't have any BB shells nor any Remington display. That's where I bought #3 steel and 4B as a compromise.

VZ1600
05-28-2010, 10:16
What is your opinion on BB size shot for home defense?

No.....

MTPD
05-29-2010, 05:04
AIPPI: You can change your pics' file size no problem:

If you're a PC-user, open Windows Explorer, find your file, right-click on it and select "Open With..." then select Paint. In paint, select "Image," then "Stretch/Skew" then type in an appropriate percentage (for both horizontal & vertical attributes) - it will literally make the image size smaller, thereby making the file size manageable for this site to upload.

MTPD
05-29-2010, 06:36
Shotgun penetration tests:

It was enlightening to see that #4 Buckshot penetrates very little deeper than BB's, while OO Buck penetrates considerably deeper.

This suggests (to me) that #4 Buck should be limited to close range defense applications (inside buildings) and should not be used as an all-around police/civilian defense loading.

I was disappointed that there were no tests of 000 Buck, since my own Bubba-tests on sheets of plywood indicate that 000B has more punch than 00B at longer ranges (40+ yards).

I would also have liked to see the results of 000B, 00B & 4B when shooting jello covered with heavy clothing, which might have radically affected the results.

MTPD
05-30-2010, 02:56
As with all ammo - anything with any kind of effective BG stopping power, will over penetrate. You have to make your choice: definite stopping and possible over penetration, or possible stopping and unlikely overpenetration.

Not that last example - you can still over penterate AND not stop the BG!

When I talk about over-penetration I'm referring to shots that miss the BG's and penetrate walls, or whatever.

Buckshot is unlikely to penetrate a human torso through and through, as is JHP pistol ammo. So I don't concern myself with that remote possibility.

However, with regard to single projectile rifle and pistol rounds, almost all the human and big game animals I've personally seen shot where the bullets were relatively ineffective were the result of insufficient penetration. So, to me, too deep is better than too shallow when it comes to stopping power. Problem is, those deep penetrating rounds that miss also tend to over penetrate walls, thereby endangering innocents.

N/Apower
05-30-2010, 03:05
I just wonder if anyone has done any research personally, or just repeating hearsay.

I'm bad about repeating hearsay, but I try to keep it on the topic of attractive women.

Shotguns are even more dangerous, sometimes.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958

Scroll down about 4-5 examples and you'll be at 2 3/4" Remington lead BB shot..

And under 10 yards, summer.. it ain't hardly birdshot at all, insofar as survivability is concerned. Borderline, yes.. but don't you WANT borderline compared to OOO ? Or isn't that the point?

2 3/4" vs 3" matters. Muzzle velocity matters. Distance matters. Choke on the shotgun matters. Lead vs Steel BB's (vs HeviShot tungsten) matters.

Granpa's 70 year old riot gun, cylinder bore, 2 3/4" standard velocity, 1 oz lead BB shot, is lethal @ 7 yards with a frontal torso (COM) direct hit, on an unarmored adult male.

sez me. yer welcome to prove otherwise, I like learning new things.

and fwiw I recommend #4 buckshot indoors & #1 Buckshot for general rural yard work, keep 1 oz slugs in mine and don't task it for HD. Vehicle penetration is what it's for, and the one chance in thousands I'd need it for that.

But if you think a dose of BB's point blank isn't lethal in a 12 gauge, you're misled.

Test is invalid as gel was not mixed anywhere NEAR to spec. Penetration figures are 15-20% off in some cases.

usurp31
06-11-2010, 21:30
What do you guys feel about 1 3/8 oz BB shot out of a 3 1/2" 10 gauge? Just curious if the increased shell size would affect BB performance for HD use.

marlinfan
06-12-2010, 05:59
:facepalm: just use a regular old walmart 00buck load and FORGET ABOUT IT.

ScrappyDoo
06-12-2010, 09:00
:facepalm: just use a regular old walmart 00buck load and FORGET ABOUT IT.


It really is that simple.

usurp31
06-12-2010, 10:17
Well, so much for intelligent discourse. I agree about the 00buck; just curious about 10 gauge performance with mentioned loads.

inzone
06-12-2010, 12:08
birdshot is very cheap and in a pinch you could use it for fire suppression just to keep their heads down and use it to conserve your buckshot and slugs for firing for effect.....

usurp31
06-12-2010, 12:40
I use a 10 gauge as well as the 12 for HD and I always laugh when I read this (http://www.internetarmory.com/shotgun_ammo.htm). Notice at the very bottom where it says "10 Gauge: Recommended Cartridges: For this "cannon", anything." :wow: Anyway, 00 buck is the way to go and yet I also agree with the guys that said that you have to use whatever you have on hand and there probably is some merit for birdshot use for apartment dwellers. One of my lawyer friends recommended against 'sporterizing' my HD shotgun and to use birdshot for legal purposes but that's the nice thing about having choices and making them for yourself.

method
06-12-2010, 13:24
Eh, a quick look at that page shows a reference to the .410 'gauge', and the assertion that the grooves on the side of a rifled slug promote rotation and stability, so I wouldn't put much faith into what they say.

Obviously BB shot from a 3.5" 10 gauge would be more effective than it would be from any length 12 gauge, but it's still essentially handicapping the weapon. I think most of us can easily visualize the size of a BB. They're not that big. They weigh 9 grains each in lead. A 00 pellet is nearly twice the diameter, and weighs 54 grains in lead.

Given a face on torso shot at 3 yards at a lightly built, lightly clothed attacker with nothing between the muzzle and chest, and yeah, BB will probably kill them right there. Change any of those variables though....

usurp31
06-12-2010, 13:47
They do mention that the .410 is the exception and is the bore diameter but you are correct on the rifling part.

method
06-12-2010, 15:49
Whoops, missed that part, just saw the .410 GA heading below.

ScrappyDoo
06-12-2010, 15:56
birdshot is very cheap and in a pinch you could use it for fire suppression just to keep their heads down and use it to conserve your buckshot and slugs for firing for effect.....


You're sure right! I have a whole bunch of Remington 12 gauge birdshot , 25 round, $7-9 dollar boxes of their sale, 7 7.5 and 8 shot birdshots! Excellent to have! great for plinking, practicing, ESPECIALLY good for if SHTF, TEOTWAWKI etc.... and if need be, would I load up on bird shot, and shoot the sh1t outta bad guys if necessary? Absolutely!!! Would i use it to get the last turkey sandwich and or tomato in the world for my hungry family members if thats all there was? Guaranteed!!! And do I have more birdshot than those who incessantly incorrectly and intelligently insist on invoking its issue for life threatening instances? In a nut shell, YES>

But other than trying to save money for plinking or storing rounds for SHTF, you should Shut The Funk UP and use buckshot.

*** IT REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE ***

usurp31
06-12-2010, 16:20
You're sure right! I have a whole bunch of Remington 12 gauge birdshot , 25 round, $7-9 dollar boxes of their sale, 7 7.5 and 8 shot birdshots! Excellent to have! great for plinking, practicing, ESPECIALLY good for if SHTF, TEOTWAWKI etc.... and if need be, would I load up on bird shot, and shoot the sh1t outta bad guys if necessary? Absolutely!!! Would i use it to get the last turkey sandwich and or tomato in the world for my hungry family members if thats all there was? Guaranteed!!! And do I have more birdshot than those who incessantly incorrectly and intelligently insist on invoking its issue for life threatening instances? In a nut shell, YES>

But other than trying to save money for plinking or storing rounds for SHTF, you should Shut The Funk UP and use buckshot.

*** IT REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE ***

GT is always good for a chuckle! I understand your position ScrappyDoo (you live up to your name for sure). FYI I think you meant to type "unintelligently". Turkey sandwich is my favorite too.

ScrappyDoo
06-12-2010, 16:36
GT is always good for a chuckle! I understand your position ScrappyDoo (you live up to your name for sure). FYI I think you meant to type "unintelligently". Turkey sandwich is my favorite too.


LMFAO, would you believe I fought with the spellchecker for like 5 minutes, and it kept changing my word, and I was like, No, I don't think thats right.... and I kept retyping it and it kept re-doing it and finally I was like OKAY!!!!! Sheeitt!!! I beat 97% of the country on the SAT Verbal/English many many years and moons ago, I'm quite certain when I choose to use my English minor degree I can , and if this computer insists its correct, who is my dumb ***** to argue.


LOL. I knew I was right, that I was wrong, that I was right. Right?

:)

usurp31
06-12-2010, 16:50
Too funny; no worries; I had to look up what TEOTWAWKI meant!

GreyEclipse
06-12-2010, 17:27
Use Buckshot!!!

mpow66m
06-19-2010, 08:07
3'' 000 Buckshot W/ 4 3'' slugs in the sidesaddle.

B Coyote
06-19-2010, 12:00
3'' 000 Buckshot W/ 4 3'' slugs in the sidesaddle.

Brutal on both ends. :supergrin:

bc

David Armstrong
06-20-2010, 10:02
3'' 000 Buckshot W/ 4 3'' slugs in the sidesaddle.
FWIW, the 3" shells really don't improve performance that much in tactical terms. While a 3" mag makes sense when shooting birds, for defensive purposes you don't gain much in performance but you do lose capacity and controllability.

B Coyote
06-20-2010, 15:30
But, but, but...it's a magnum! ;)

More HAS to be better, right?

bc

DrMarc
07-01-2010, 19:46
I wouldn't want to get shot by any type of shotgun.
Nobody does.

Home defense distance. Any size shot will "stop the threat".

See what Gun Site says about the subject.


www.gunsite.com

Joenpb
07-01-2010, 20:07
The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - Page 2 (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm)

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

ScrappyDoo
07-04-2010, 13:57
Oh look. Its this thread again.

mpow66m
07-05-2010, 18:44
I have 2.75 000 Buck loaded in my Benelli Nova w/ 4 2.75 slugs in my side saddle.I live in a cottage converted into a home so if i should ever have to defend my family against an intruder it would be pretty much point blank range.20' or closer,w/ various rooms in the background.

jp 19
07-06-2010, 08:45
for what it is worth.... gleen what you can...

http://jth8260.tripod.com/shotgun.html

IV. Ammunition

There are three types of shotgun ammunition: buckshot, birdshot and slugs. I will not talk about speciality rounds like Dragon's Breath, beanbag rounds or breaching shells.

Buckshot is the all-around defense load. Large lead pellets are the hallmark of a buckshot load. The most popular buckshot sizes seem to be (in descending order of diameter of each pellet): 000, 00, 0, #1 and #4. The larger the pellet, the fewer pellets per cartridge, but the more effective range of the shell.

In general, remember that the larget the shot size, the greater the effective range and penetration. Farnam and Suarez both concur that the maximum effective range of buckshot, for defensive purposes, is around 25 yards. See Farnam, supra at 38; Suarez, supra at 16. The "best" buckshot that one can use for defense purposes is unknown. It's like the constant 9mmP versus .45 ACP debate. Just use the one that you can shoot well and that gives you adequate penetration at the desired range, without overpenetration -- you'll be fine.

The popular loads in buckshot for defense are the "reduced recoil" loads, from Federal and Remington. These loads are not full-power loads, but are designed for fast follow-up shots. They are apparently very popular with the law enforcement community -- while that's not always an indication that a product is a good idea, the reduced recoil loads may enable more recoil-sensitive individuals to handle the relatively stout recoil of a big bore shotgun. In some instances, reduced recoil rounds have the added benefit of tighter pellet patterns -- but you should always confirm this by patterning a variety of loads on paper with your particular shotgun. And as always, make sure the load fits the shooter.

Farnam recommends against magnum loads in the defensive shotgun. Farnam, supra at 36.

Slugs are single projectiles, much like rifle bullets. They come in several varieties, the most popular being the Foster, Brenneke and sabot type slugs. Slugs are good for precise shots, at longer distances. Buckshot and birdshot will lose velocity quickly, due to their relatively non-aerodynamic shape. Realize that larger pellets will be traveling at higher speeds at a given range from the muzzle, compared to smaller pellets. However, effective range of the load may not necessarily increase, because the pellets will spread as the shot string moves downrange. Thus, the overall measure of a load's effectiveness must take into consideration more than just the kinetic energy of the round. Slugs have the advantage of condensing all the mass into one large projectile (more momentum) and better aerodynamic design. Federal offers reduced recoil slugs for defense purposes.

Birdshot is your typical field load. The load packages a multitude of very small pellets into one shell. At close contact distances (<20 feet) birdshot will behave exactly like buckshot or slugs, as the birdshot will still be locked into the shot cup -- try patterning birdshot at twenty feet and you'll get one large ragged hole. For this reason, some apartment dwellers like to use birdshot as their defense load -- at close distances (such as those found within apartments) it still packs the punch of buckshot or slugs, but it doesn't have as much overpenetration power once the shot string moves a decent distance from the muzzle.

John Farnam recommends against the use of birdshot altogether, stating the penetration is adequate only at contact distances (within a few centimeters). Farnam, supra, at 35. Gabe Suarez advises using birdshot only in strict home defense applications, when distances are short and overpenetration is a big concern. Suarez, supra, at 14.

In my opinion, buckshot and slugs can be horribly overpenetrative, depending on the distance from the muzzle. Obviously, slugs are the worst and birdshot is the best when it comes to losing energy over distance. Remember that buck and birdshot will lose energy faster over distance due to their poor aerodynamics, when compared to slugs. Choose your defense load based on your surroundings and the structure of your home. If you live out in the boondocks where it's ten miles between you and your nearest neighbor, slugs and buckshot will do just fine. If you live in a crowded apartment building, birdshot may be more to your liking. But remember, be aware of what's beyond your target, even if it is ten miles to your neighbor's house -- it might be your spouse or child beyond the next wall.

With buckshot, birdshot or slugs, each gun will behave differently. So make sure you take your proposed defense load and pattern the buck or bird at typical contact distance (21 yards or less). Shoot slugs through your gun and see what kind of groupings are possible. You may find that one particular load patterns extremely well. Stick with that load and you'll be fine. If you want to tighten up your patterns, see what the people at Vang Comp or Patternmaster can do for your particular gun.

method
07-06-2010, 10:54
one shell. At close contact distances (<20 feet) birdshot will behave exactly like buckshot or slugs, as the birdshot will still be locked into the shot cup -- try patterning birdshot at twenty feet and you'll get one large ragged hole. For this reason, some apartment dwellers like to use birdshot as their defense load -- at close distances (such as those found within apartments) it still packs the punch of buckshot or slugs.

Based solely on this, this write up ain't worth much. No matter what the distance, birdshot never behaves exactly like buckshot or slugs. A charge of birdshot, even when clustered tightly together surface to surface, does not behave like a solid mass; it behaves like dozens or hundreds of individual small masses bunched together. The potential penetration comes down to what each pellet is capable of.

jp 19
07-06-2010, 11:13
Based solely on this, this write up ain't worth much. No matter what the distance, birdshot never behaves exactly like buckshot or slugs. A charge of birdshot, even when clustered tightly together surface to surface, does not behave like a solid mass; it behaves like dozens or hundreds of individual small masses bunched together. The potential penetration comes down to what each pellet is capable of.


yea yea i don't agree with that premise either... but the point of the article being is choose your load by your surroundings... i am sorry i wouldn't want to live in an apartment with the guy on my adjoining wall having his shotgun loaded with 00... cripes... everyone thinks he's an operator... no offense ... but make your choices wisely... because if i get hit through my wall because you decided on 00... you will be working the rest of your life to pay me off for wrongful injury... that is if i cant get your ass put in jail first....

peace

alexanderg23
07-06-2010, 11:23
3" T goose load should do it,

84S
07-06-2010, 23:49
00 buck is my first choice, but if I look inside my small house there isn't one spot where a properly aimed bird shot shotgun blast wouldn't ruin someone's day big time.

Joenpb
07-09-2010, 12:25
but make your choices wisely... because if i get hit through my wall because you decided on 00... you will be working the rest of your life to pay me off for wrongful injury... that is if i cant get your ass put in jail first....

That is true no matter the gun or load, be it pistol, rifle, or shotgun. Certainly its possible (as shown by the box of truth) a 9mm bullet (not to mention .40 & .45 cals) penetrates more than 00 buck.

It still comes down to the question of what is enough penetration and the consequences of failing to stop a perpetrator. My guess is birdshot is even less effective in winter when extra clothing is worn.
.
But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

owl6roll
07-09-2010, 20:14
They work great on little birds. Buckshot works best on man.

method
07-09-2010, 21:48
That is true no matter the gun or load, be it pistol, rifle, or shotgun. Certainly its possible (as shown by the box of truth) a 9mm bullet (not to mention .40 & .45 cals) penetrates more than 00 buck.

It still comes down to the question of what is enough penetration and the consequences of failing to stop a perpetrator. My guess is birdshot is even less effective in winter when extra clothing is worn.
.

I bet a reasonable amount of heavy clothing would completely defeat birdshot past a few yards.

jp 19
07-13-2010, 21:45
I bet a reasonable amount of heavy clothing would completely defeat birdshot past a few yards.

you want to be the test subject??:rofl:

method
07-13-2010, 22:56
you want to be the test subject??:rofl:

Sure, but I get to define 'reasonable', and pick the load, clothing, and the distance. I'll keep it under 20 yards.

jp 19
07-14-2010, 07:33
Sure, but I get to define 'reasonable', and pick the load, clothing, and the distance. I'll keep it under 20 yards.

but the original post was about BB shot for HD... that would be HD distance not more then 7 yrds max... and reasonable heavy clothing would be a winter coat at most...:upeyes:

Thunderbolt56
07-14-2010, 07:57
BB shot for home defense can be perfectly effective. Most HD ranges are going to be short (<10 yds) and even if it doesn't terminate the perp, it should easily terminate the threat.

WoodenPlank
07-14-2010, 13:06
Bird shot is for birds, buckshot is for bad guys. My 590 stays set with 8 rounds (empty chamber) of reduced recoil and buffered 00 buck. The 6-shot sidesaddle carries 4 more, and 2 SuperX 1oz slugs as a "just in case" round.