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glocknick
05-17-2010, 19:23
i currently carry doubletap 180gr cotrolled expansion ammo with the montana gold bullet in my glock 29. i usually carry my 29 in the woods for bear protection and occasionally aroud town when i am up the mountains. i was thinking of switching my carry ammo to buffalo bore 220g hardcast ammo. i know this is a better round for a bear but how effective is a 220g buffalo bore on a two legged attacker? would it be a good idea to carry 2 or 3 jhp in the beginning of the mag and fill the rest with 220g hardcast?

thanks
nick

_The_Shadow
05-17-2010, 21:27
glocknick, I carry mine with handloaded Hornady 200XTP's. I use to load strickly with Blue Dot for these but now I am using Power Pistol at max load and the performance is better from the 3.78" short barrel of the Glock 29. I don't like any bullets heavier than 200 grains from this short pipe pistol.

Good luck and stay safe!

Kegs
05-18-2010, 04:54
I concur. 200 grain is where it's at.

G33
05-18-2010, 06:28
Heavy is good.
I use 200 XTP in the country.
2 or 4 legs.
:supergrin::supergrin:

HOV
05-18-2010, 08:53
BB or DT would make a fine anti-animal load, but I wouldn't carry either of them for self defense. Too much recoil, not enough control.

I'm partial to 180-gr. XTP bullets because I shoot them well, but I haven't tried 200-gr. yet. Sounds like fun.

glocknick
05-18-2010, 16:07
i have started handloading but i would like another year or so of doing so before i carry any of my reloads. i do like power pistol in my 10mm loads. i think 200grain hornady xtp sound like a good comprimise between the 180gr i carry now and the 220gr buffalo bore.

cowboywannabe
05-18-2010, 16:17
black bear or grizzly? there is a big difference.

id load up two magazines....one for "in town" with 135gr. Noslers, the other for "in the woods" with a heavy hard cast. you carry a spare mag anyway right?

BTW, the montana gold is a poor choice for defense against human attackers, unless you think that FMJ in a high powered round is good for that. the MG simply is a H.P. profile but doesnt act as a H.P. much at all on a soft target.

glocknick
05-18-2010, 16:40
black bear or grizzly? there is a big difference.

id load up two magazines....one for "in town" with 135gr. Noslers, the other for "in the woods" with a heavy hard cast. you carry a spare mag anyway right?

BTW, the montana gold is a poor choice for defense against human attackers, unless you think that FMJ in a high powered round is good for that. the MG simply is a H.P. profile but doesnt act as a H.P. much at all on a soft target.
it would be a black bear. i very rarely carry extra mags. as far as the montana golds i do agree with you that is why i am lookind for different ammo. i fired some of these montana golds into water jugs and they lost their jackets and barely expanded. the problem is doubletap and buffalo bore are both using them.

Aloxite
05-18-2010, 17:13
I decided on two different carry loads based on McNetts gelatin tests. I'm only thinking about two legged pests though.

For general use I decided on the 180 grain Gold Dot. For times when I don't want to risk over penetration I picked the Nosler 135 grain.

This is the data from a G20.

All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin.

-snip-

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

-Snip-

For those who are asking, here it is!
-Mike

He also posted data for the 180 grain GOld dot fired from a G29.

Using the G29, the 180gr GDHP:
15.5" .98"
-Mike

It's interesting to see that the bullet actually has more penetration and a larger recovered diameter fired from the shorter barrel. Out of either gun it is certainly a good choice.

cowboywannabe
05-18-2010, 17:36
it would be a black bear. i very rarely carry extra mags. as far as the montana golds i do agree with you that is why i am lookind for different ammo. i fired some of these montana golds into water jugs and they lost their jackets and barely expanded. the problem is doubletap and buffalo bore are both using them.

carry ONE spare mag and one in the gun.

one mag with a hard cast heavy weight (200gr.~) and the other with a lighter h.p. (135gr.-165gr.).

you just switch mags in the gun depending on where youre going.

with that said, if i know i'll be in black bear country, i will carry my G20 with a heavy hard cast or my L frame .357 with the same type of load.

its very rare that i end up some place i didnt intend on going in the first place.

glocknick
05-18-2010, 17:54
thanks for the good info cowboy. you really got me thinking and using two mags with 2 different loads just seems to be the most logical thing to do.

aggiekcc
05-18-2010, 22:13
I carry in the city for the most part and my ammo of choice is the 175 gr Winchester Silvertips. I have shot multiple types of Doubletap and the Bufalo Bore, Federal, and Hornady. The main reason for the Winchesters is that I am more accurate with them. Just my 2 cents.

chemboy
05-21-2010, 15:46
The 175 gr Silvertip is quite accurate for me also.
I have chronographed them at 1120 fps out of a G29 and 1220 out of a G20.
That being said, when I am packing a 10mm in bear(or more often, wolf) country, I like 200gr truncated cone projectiles such as the 200gr Blazer.
YMMV.

Kegs
05-22-2010, 09:02
I carry in the city for the most part and my ammo of choice is the 175 gr Winchester Silvertips. I have shot multiple types of Doubletap and the Bufalo Bore, Federal, and Hornady. The main reason for the Winchesters is that I am more accurate with them. Just my 2 cents.

I think this is also a good choice due to being standard factory loads from a major supplier.

cowboywannabe
05-22-2010, 16:24
The 175 gr Silvertip is quite accurate for me also.
I have chronographed them at 1120 fps out of a G29 and 1220 out of a G20.
That being said, when I am packing a 10mm in bear(or more often, wolf) country, I like 200gr truncated cone projectiles such as the 200gr Blazer.
YMMV.

wow, youre only getting high end .40cal power from your 10mm. seems to be a waste, but the benefit the 10mm gives you are the options of weak rounds and true 10mm rounds.

if the Win STHP lived up to its hype it would be one of the most favored rounds by true 10mm shooters, unfortunately it falls quite a bit short of 10mm power in real life though.

chemboy
05-22-2010, 17:33
wow, youre only getting high end .40cal power from your 10mm. seems to be a waste, but the benefit the 10mm gives you are the options of weak rounds and true 10mm rounds.

if the Win STHP lived up to its hype it would be one of the most favored rounds by true 10mm shooters, unfortunately it falls quite a bit short of 10mm power in real life though.

Agreed.
I was a little disappointed the first time I chrono'd that load.
Certainly well short of the 1290fps that Winchester claims(claimed?) for it.

I am going to start reloading for the 10mm soon; I see no reason I could not safely obtain 1200-1250 from a 180gr out of the G29.
We will see...

Grrrr
05-22-2010, 19:08
Agreed.
I was a little disappointed the first time I chrono'd that load.
Certainly well short of the 1290fps that Winchester claims(claimed?) for it.

I am going to start reloading for the 10mm soon; I see no reason I could not safely obtain 1200-1250 from a 180gr out of the G29.
We will see...
Winchesters numbers for the st is from a 5.5 in bbl. I also believe that they still down load it a bit. 1220 in a 4 1/2 in bbl is still more than any factory loaded 40 cal round by at least 100 fps. I personally like my defense 10mm round to be a 180 gr going 1300-1350 out of a 4 1/2 bbl.

Bohlander
06-12-2010, 22:04
I just picked up 2 boxes of Buffalo Bore for my G29 today. I thought I was getting 180 grain Gold Dot's and when I got home I realized that the package was mismarked and were some other bullet (perhaps Montana Gold that people are talking about). Should I be concerned that it's not the Gold Dot? Please let me know what your thoughts are. I use the gun both for hiking in Nevada (bear and mountain lion), as well as for CCW.

Thanks,
Bryce

Ak.Hiker
06-12-2010, 23:54
For the woods I load my Glock 29 with the 200 grain DT or BB FMJ loads. Another good woods walking load is the 200 grain CorBon Penetrator. Right now I am carrying the DT loaded with the Montana Gold brass jacketed FMJ. This load runs good in my Glock and the bullet I recovered after going through 5-6 inches of wood could have been reloaded. I always carry a back up magazine as well. My SD load for the 29 is either the Hornady 180 grain XTP or the 175 grain Winchester Silvertip. Easy change over for ammo selection depending on your location. I have at times loaded the first two rounds with the 180 grain XTP or 175 Grain Silvertip and the next eight 200 grain FMJ's.

Ak.Hiker
06-13-2010, 00:03
I just picked up 2 boxes of Buffalo Bore for my G29 today. I thought I was getting 180 grain Gold Dot's and when I got home I realized that the package was mismarked and were some other bullet (perhaps Montana Gold that people are talking about). Should I be concerned that it's not the Gold Dot? Please let me know what your thoughts are. I use the gun both for hiking in Nevada (bear and mountain lion), as well as for CCW.

Thanks,
Bryce

I like the MG FMJ bullets. I have never tried their HP's. They are a target bullet. However some target bullets like the Sierra FPJ work good on game because of their deep penetration. The MG JHP may be similar but I have never tried them.

cowboywannabe
06-13-2010, 04:53
I just picked up 2 boxes of Buffalo Bore for my G29 today. I thought I was getting 180 grain Gold Dot's and when I got home I realized that the package was mismarked and were some other bullet (perhaps Montana Gold that people are talking about). Should I be concerned that it's not the Gold Dot? Please let me know what your thoughts are. I use the gun both for hiking in Nevada (bear and mountain lion), as well as for CCW.

Thanks,
Bryce

the montana gold "hollow point" is just for looks. it is made that way for the h.p. profile for target shooters that wantt to test their guns with a h.p. without breaking the bank.

the MG h.p. is a poor expander and and that fact makes it well suited for bear and mountain lion.

Deep Nylon
06-14-2010, 09:29
I asked Mas Ayoob (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1224897) for his thoughts on SD and the 10mm, and here was his reply:

Agreed that the Silvertip is hard to beat.

I've always liked a 165 grain JHP in the 1300 fps range; great potential, but never ran across a shooting with it. The trouble with loads from the small makers is that they don't get used in as many shootings as the ammunition of the mainstream makers, so there's less of a data base.

CorBon and others offer a ferocious 135 grain 10mm JHP load at 1450 fps, and while some fear it won't have enough penetration, it has killed some pretty big critters pretty decisively in the hands of Ted Nugent.

Best,
Mas

I'm currently using the Silvertip, and when I'm able to actually find some of the Cor Bon 135's somewhere, I'd love to give them a try and see how my Glocks like them. I'm a believer in the lighter, faster option, where practicable.

RogerStuart
06-15-2010, 21:31
The 175 gr Silvertip is quite accurate for me also.
I have chronographed them at 1120 fps out of a G29 and 1220 out of a G20.
That being said, when I am packing a 10mm in bear(or more often, wolf) country, I like 200gr truncated cone projectiles such as the 200gr Blazer.
YMMV.

Has anyone ever chronographed the Blazer 200gr? It feels the same as shooting 180gr doubletap to me. Maybe I'm not sensitive enough to differences in recoil... I really like the blazers and I seem to shoot them quite well. I plan on ordering a .40 cal barrel for my G29 and would like to nerd around with some wood/phone book shooting and compare the Blazer .40 to the Blazer 10mm. Until I sees it for myself, I don't really buy the "all 10mm loads are as weak as .40 cal except for my fancy handloads" thing. I guess what really need is a chronograph...What does a reasonably inexpensive one cost?

Ak.Hiker
06-16-2010, 22:58
Has anyone ever chronographed the Blazer 200gr? It feels the same as shooting 180gr doubletap to me. Maybe I'm not sensitive enough to differences in recoil... I really like the blazers and I seem to shoot them quite well. I plan on ordering a .40 cal barrel for my G29 and would like to nerd around with some wood/phone book shooting and compare the Blazer .40 to the Blazer 10mm. Until I sees it for myself, I don't really buy the "all 10mm loads are as weak as .40 cal except for my fancy handloads" thing. I guess what really need is a chronograph...What does a reasonably inexpensive one cost?

I like the 200 grain Blazer in 10mm as well. They are a very good load out of my Glock 29. Not as hot as the Buffalo Bore 200 grain FMJ but they still are a good hard hitting load. They are loaded about the same as the Hornady 10mm 200 grain XTP. The Hornady load has a good reputation in the field. The TMJ bullet will penetrate deeper than the XTP so it should make a good field load.

chemboy
06-17-2010, 09:19
I like the 200 grain Blazer in 10mm as well. They are a very good load out of my Glock 29. Not as hot as the Buffalo Bore 200 grain FMJ but they still are a good hard hitting load. They are loaded about the same as the Hornady 10mm 200 grain XTP. The Hornady load has a good reputation in the field. The TMJ bullet will penetrate deeper than the XTP so it should make a good field load.


I used to shoot a fair bit of the Blazer through my 20s/29s.
I never did chronograph it, but it always 'felt' fairly warm and wow, would it zing through heavy steel drums!
:grin:

I just checked Thomas Marten's 10 mm article, and he quotes 990fps out of his G29 for the Blazer 200gr.
A bit slower than I would have guessed, honestly.

cowboywannabe
06-17-2010, 10:02
what ever you put in your G29 dont use the DT 135gr. Noslers! you will know for sure that you have magnum power then, and that aint too kosher for some weaker folks.

cwb
06-21-2010, 09:51
I used to shoot a fair bit of the Blazer through my 20s/29s.
I never did chronograph it, but it always 'felt' fairly warm and wow, would it zing through heavy steel drums!
:grin:

I just checked Thomas Marten's 10 mm article, and he quotes 990fps out of his G29 for the Blazer 200gr.
A bit slower than I would have guessed, honestly.
That's very slow for that round. 200 gr is pretty easy to get over 1200 fps in a G29.
For all those who like the silvertips, why not take them apart and reload them to go faster?

_The_Shadow
06-21-2010, 11:06
That's very slow for that round. 200 gr is pretty easy to get over 1200 fps in a G29.
For all those who like the silvertips, why not take them apart and reload them to go faster?

Well I'd like the hear about the loads that are getting 1200fps "pretty easy" from the G-29...

It is quite difficult to get 1200fps with the avalible powders from a 5" barrel much less the Glock with a 3.78" barrel safely and within the proper pressure ranges.

My best loads with the Hornady 200XTP's that I tested which reached 1200fps from my S&W 1006, only make 1080fps-1130fps from my Glock 29...I consider these loads absolute MAXIMUM for my pistols.

There might be a little more to be had from a non jacketed or FMJ in this weight, but not that much. Besides the 200gr bullets are getting harder to come by as the 180gr are becoming the main stay in this caliber and formulated/constructed to be shot at the 980 fps 40S&W velocities in accordance to LEO and FBI specifications.:steamed:

The 10mm was designed to be a shooter:wow: from the get-go...That right there is the main reason I handload my own ammo!

_The_Shadow
06-21-2010, 11:11
I like the 200 grain Blazer in 10mm as well. They are a very good load out of my Glock 29. Not as hot as the Buffalo Bore 200 grain FMJ but they still are a good hard hitting load. They are loaded about the same as the Hornady 10mm 200 grain XTP. The Hornady load has a good reputation in the field. The TMJ bullet will penetrate deeper than the XTP so it should make a good field load.

If you need deeper penatration than what a quallity loaded Hornady 200XTP loaded to 1200fps from a 5" barreled pistol...then you are carring the wrong gun for the job!:faint:

cwb
06-21-2010, 11:11
Ok. DT sells loads that they advertise at 1275 FPS(going from memory) from a G20. I have noticed a typical deviation of between 50-70 fps between my 20 and 29. Using #9 and a plated bullet I was easily able to obtain an average of about 1220 using my own loads. I felt there was more room to go up but I was trying to achieve just in excess of 1200 and was there so I quit testing. Both of these guns use a LW barrel.

_The_Shadow
06-21-2010, 11:50
cwb writes...Ok. DT sells loads that they advertise at 1275 FPS(going from memory) from a G20.

I'll agree that Mike advertises his loads at that velocity from a stock G-20...but many have purchased these and clocked them in various locations abroad and their results were off base to say the least. That being said I still feel DT and Buffalo Bore are great custom ammo and do provide way better performance than the other commercially loaded ammo companies.

But they are using "commercial only" avalible powders for their products that are not avalible to the handloaders!

The AA#9 is a great powder for the 10mm and requires a compressed(so compressed that the bullets actually start to crush) load to get to the 1200fps + range with the 5" guns and the pressures are up there aswell. That is why the brass expansions are noted using the standard glock barrels with thw generous chambers.

I'm not saying it is impossible, but safety needs to be the concern.

cwb
06-21-2010, 11:55
I'll agree that Mike advertises his loads at that velocity from a stock G-20...but many have purchased these and clocked them in various locations abroad and their results were off base to say the least. That being said I still feel DT and Buffalo Bore are great custom ammo and do provide way better performance than the other commercially loaded ammo companies.

But they are using "commercial only" avalible powders for their products that are not avalible to the handloaders!

The AA#9 is a great powder for the 10mm and requires a compressed(so compressed that the bullets actually start to crush) load to get to the 1200fps + range with the 5" guns and the pressures are up there aswell. That is why the brass expansions are noted using the standard glock barrels with thw generous chambers.

I'm not saying it is impossible, but safety needs to be the concern.
I'll agree about DT's true load velocities.

I am a commercial reloader and while I am small I have not seen powders available to me that are not commercially available.

I have not had to compress my loads that much to get to where I am at. Yes, safety is a concern. I pay careful attention to my brass and my gun and also why I use aftermarket barrels.

CanyonMan
06-21-2010, 12:54
If you need deeper penatration than what a quallity loaded Hornady 200XTP loaded to 1200fps from a 5" barreled pistol...then you are carring the wrong gun for the job!:faint:


Although XTP's are always second in line with all the handguns/calibers I load for and I really like them. AK can get more penetration with The TMJ, and I 'know" I get way more penetration with a Beartooth 200gr Hard Cast bullet out of the G20 @ 1200fps +.


To the OP
I'm not at all in favor of a service caliber for bear, but if I 'had to carry" a 10mm for this reason, (if you don't hand load) then I strongly suggest the Baffalo Bore offerings, or the hottest FMJ you can find in a factory offering. Heavy for caliber, if your wanting deeper penetration. A flat Meplat (nose profile) will be better as well.

For your Carry in town stuff, 175gr Silvertips ain't to bad. Although I do like XTP's they just don't roll them hot enough at Hornady. Their 200gr XTP is only 100fps faster than their 180gr 40 S&W. I don't like Silvertips personally. But for "factory ammo' for 10mm, there ain't much out there. I would not trust DT ammo at all. That is why I hand load. I will admit, that if I do carry the 10mm for CC (not very often) and am not using the hand loads, I will stuff the WW ST's in there. I got no problem with them on two legged stuff. Just wish Hornady would get off their rump and bring the XTP up to 10mm standards.


You don't want to carry the Hard Cast for two legged critters, unless your in the out back and have troubles then use what ya got. In town, switch over to a good JHP. Just don't know "factory wise," where to point ya for a good full house 10mm load.



Good luck and stay safe !
Both of ya OP, Shadow.




CanyonMan

chemboy
06-21-2010, 14:53
Well I'd like the hear about the loads that are getting 1200fps "pretty easy" from the G-29...

It is quite difficult to get 1200fps with the avalible powders from a 5" barrel much less the Glock with a 3.78" barrel safely and within the proper pressure ranges.

My best loads with the Hornady 200XTP's that I tested which reached 1200fps from my S&W 1006, only make 1080fps-1130fps from my Glock 29...I consider these loads absolute MAXIMUM for my pistols.

There might be a little more to be had from a non jacketed or FMJ in this weight, but not that much. Besides the 200gr bullets are getting harder to come by as the 180gr are becoming the main stay in this caliber and formulated/constructed to be shot at the 980 fps 40S&W velocities in accordance to LEO and FBI specifications.:steamed:

The 10mm was designed to be a shooter:wow: from the get-go...That right there is the main reason I handload my own ammo!

Agreed.
1200 fps with a 200gr out of a G29 is asking for trouble-pressure wise.
1100 is plenty, IMO.

I am quite happy with 1250 out a 180gr in my 29SF, if I want something that really penetrates, I would use the Blazer 200gr TMJ;even though it 'only' clocks a 1000fps, from what I have seen, penetration is very good.

MX727
06-21-2010, 16:27
10mm 125gr. Barnes TAC-XP (http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=435)

From DT website:

A hard hitting round featuring Barnes' excellent TAC-XP bullet. 100% weight retention and extreme expansion make this one of the best defensive bullets available! This is probably the the best personal defense load in existence.

Caliber : 10mm

Bullet : 125gr. Barnes TAC-XP

Ballistics : 125gr. @ 1600fps / 710ft/lbs- Glock 20
1450fps / 582ft lbs 50yds. Glock 20
Glock 29 - 1501fps

SimonovsDog
06-21-2010, 18:42
10mm 125gr. Barnes TAC-XP (http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=435)

From DT website:

A hard hitting round featuring Barnes' excellent TAC-XP bullet. 100% weight retention and extreme expansion make this one of the best defensive bullets available! This is probably the the best personal defense load in existence.

Caliber : 10mm

Bullet : 125gr. Barnes TAC-XP

Ballistics : 125gr. @ 1600fps / 710ft/lbs- Glock 20
1450fps / 582ft lbs 50yds. Glock 20
Glock 29 - 1501fps



....and they are on sale too!!:wow:

Ak.Hiker
06-21-2010, 22:41
If you need deeper penatration than what a quallity loaded Hornady 200XTP loaded to 1200fps from a 5" barreled pistol...then you are carring the wrong gun for the job!:faint:

Perhaps but quite a few guys carry the 10mm loaded with deep penetrating loads when in the woods. Buffalo Bore, and DT both load some pretty good 200 grain FMJ's as well as heavy hard cast loads. The other day I was testing out a variety of non expanding 10mm loads for penetration in spruce wood. The BB 200 grain FMJ went right through 8 inches of wood and made a pretty good size exit. This was out of a Glock 29. That is quite a lot of penetration. For protection in the field the 357 Magnum is a popular choice and with the right loads the 10mm will do similar work. I carry my Glock 29 when I want to go light with 200 grain FMJ's. I also at times carry my SP 101 loaded with hot 180 grain hardcast loads. It depends on the time of year and the area I am hiking in. When I want more gun and more weight to carry than I have several big bore revolvers to choose from.

Taterhead
06-21-2010, 23:17
Well I'd like the hear about the loads that are getting 1200fps "pretty easy" from the G-29...

It is quite difficult to get 1200fps with the avalible powders from a 5" barrel much less the Glock with a 3.78" barrel safely and within the proper pressure ranges.

My best loads with the Hornady 200XTP's that I tested which reached 1200fps from my S&W 1006, only make 1080fps-1130fps from my Glock 29...I consider these loads absolute MAXIMUM for my pistols.

There might be a little more to be had from a non jacketed or FMJ in this weight, but not that much. Besides the 200gr bullets are getting harder to come by as the 180gr are becoming the main stay in this caliber and formulated/constructed to be shot at the 980 fps 40S&W velocities in accordance to LEO and FBI specifications.:steamed:

The 10mm was designed to be a shooter:wow: from the get-go...That right there is the main reason I handload my own ammo!

Greetings Shadow.

I think your comments about velocity expectations from the 200 gr XTPs are right on. In my observations, the 180 and 200 gr XTPs run a little slower than other bullets in comparable weights, and they seem to have a relatively higher pressure curve.

The only 200 gr projectile that I safely run @ 1200 + from my G20 is a hardcast bullet similar to the Beartooth (WFNGC hardcast). These projectiles seem to obturate with pressures much lower than the XTP. That is what I run with while in the mountains. A G20 with 15 200 grainers stuffed in the mag has some weight to pack around! Noticeable on backpack trips. Especially after switching from a mag with 135 grainers.

_The_Shadow
06-22-2010, 15:10
BTW I'll not head hunting or trying to flame anyone in this topic, I just have views based on what I have experienced with my use and handloading experience with several of my pistols with the 10MM cartridge since March 1990.

Taterhead, thanks for the greetings...<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Here is my take on the situation...The original Jeff Cooper/Norma 200 grain(FMJ TC)1200fps loads these were said to be up in the pressure range...actually above 37,500psi. The Norma 170's were also well over pressure in the early loadings.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
The Hornady XTP's are well constructed bullets; they are slightly longer by design due to the hollow point and are longer than the 200 grain FMJ TC which used to be common and the 200grain cast. With the XTP's they have a longer area to ride the bore/rifling...this does several things, it aids in stability and accuracy but it also adds to friction and seal of the bore but most of all the long bullet occupies case capacity to which the pressures are increased. FMJ's and cast being shorter in physical length allow more space in the casing and that allows lower chamber pressures plus they have less resistance to the bore/rifling contact, this is why they are able to achieve the slightly higher velocities at a given pressure.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Having said all that, I still prefer the Hornady product because they are true jacketed(not plated) The 200 grain XTP is designed for the 10MM(BTW these may be gone in favor of the more popular 180grains). People talk about over penetration with them but I haven't seen it with the deer I have shot(all have remained in the body) recovered bullets expanded to 0.72" and one shot kills, this says a lot to me. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
But in law enforcement they don't want this kind of performance, on the likelihood in such close quarters they actually have a pass thru shot with other officers or by standers around. They main objective is to stop the threat, take the perp into custody and secure the scene, not to actually kill the perp.(bad Public Relations and law suits) Besides they have a number of officers to work to resolve a situation whereas you or I may be trying to defend our lives by ourselves until the situation is resolved or help arrives. Remember Law Enforcement is only minutes away...<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I see where people want the cast bullets for protection from bears because of deeper penetration, that's cool the cast bullets will provide the penetration but cast bullets striking bones then to shear as they break the bone. This is where a good jacketed(FMJ non expanding) bullet seems to help by keeping itself in tack.<o:p></o:p>
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So there is most of the elements to which we have to work with concerning the heavier bullets. The lighter bullet at the higher velocity we can look at the 357 magnum as to it's performances over many years with various bullets. Other calibers such as 41 magnum had very few bullet styles(and even heavier weight bullets) over a wide range of performance and the 44 magnum is just outside the performance levels of the 10MM for comparison.<o:p></o:p>
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The 45acp started out slow and heavy...230grain @ 850 fps, newer hollow point loads @ +/- 1000 fps more recently.<o:p></o:p>
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But for me it will be the 10MM period!<o:p></o:p>
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CanyonMan
06-22-2010, 17:55
I see where people want the cast bullets for protection from bears because of deeper penetration, that's cool the cast bullets will provide the penetration but cast bullets striking bones then to shear as they break the bone. This is where a good jacketed(FMJ non expanding) bullet seems to help by keeping itself in tack.

So there is most of the elements to which we have to work with concerning the heavier bullets. The lighter bullet at the higher velocity we can look at the 357 magnum as to it's performances over many years with various bullets. Other calibers such as 41 magnum had very few bullet styles(and even heavier weight bullets) over a wide range of performance and the 44 magnum is just outside the performance levels of the 10MM for comparison.




Whoa there Hoss. Man this is just not completely correct ! I have been shooting big bores for 50 years. I have been loading for them for over 40 years. Probably 90% of those loads were/still are Hard Cast bullets. (tons of XTP's as well).. I use harcast in all my revolvers, and several of my semi's as well. Also after 25 years of guiding hunts over several of our western states, an living on a ranch through out my life, and testing tons of ammo and shooting hundreds of rounds per month over the years. I can tell you for a fact, that the "True Hard Cast Bullet," at 19/21 BHN, is not going to "shear off" and break up as 'you say' when hitting bone. (yes I have seen it a time or two in all these years. a fluke in lead mixture/compound).

I can put down Bull Elk at 100 yds with a 45LC and a 300gr Hard Cast bullet, "through both shoulders" and not recover the bullet. I have seen complete end to end shots through elk as well, and it will still cut through even a Moose like a cookie cutter !

Elmer Keith new a thing or two ! ;)

FMJ? your talking to one of the few old boys left who still carry them everyday out the door in my M1911 in 230 gr 'when I go to town'. But NO FMJ is ever going to come close to doing the damage of a wide faced large Meplat Hard Cast Bullet. I could write reams on this, but this is enough.

As for the 10mm (I own two Glocks in 10mm), load for and hunt with (at times) and shoot a whole lot out here on the ranch. I can assure you the 10mm is not remotely close to being a distant cousin to a 44mag. Which I started shooting as a youngin, and am 59 years old now.

I run a good deal of loads Shadow, but to name only a few here. 44 Mag 250gr Keith or LBT at 1480fps. A 275gr top ending for me at 1350+. A 300gr at 1225/1250+ top end.

Now besides being a .44 cal and not a .40 cal. Besides that. Please show me how a 10mm G20 can do even low end 44mag work. BTW I do load for the 10mm. I take a 200 Hard Cast and push 1200 + out of it. It ain't 250grs, or 275 grs, or even 300grs, and not a 44 cal.

Let's like the 10mm, fine. But not try and convience our selves or others it is a death ray. (i know you did not say that), and I am not trying to start a war here.

I am saying these two statements "in blue" need to be seriously thought through before making them again amigo . They just ain't correct. ;)


Good shooting.





CanyonMan

_The_Shadow
06-22-2010, 21:16
CanyonMan, Maybe this didn't come across right...I strickly wanted to stay with the 10MM and the heavier bullets...the reference to the lighter faster bullets from the 10MM might be compared to the 357mag but the heavier larger bullets shouldn't be compared with those of the larger bore/diameter/weights of 41mag and 44mag and (being you mentioned it the 45 Long Colt also) because these are outside the balistics of the 10MM emvelope of power vs, weight. BTW all of them are capable in there own right!

Merely trying to keep it real, concerning the ballistics/performance of the 10MM. It is what it is, when loaded to it's potential...more than the 40S&W but less than and slightly under the 41Mag.

I didn't mention the cast bullets to be a bad thing, but I have seen some shear. The hardness of 19/21BHN are very hard and take quite a bit to oburate to fill the bore, these do very well indeed especially the Wide Meplat. When you get the heavier bullets moving they carry the momentum to get deeper into the intended target. Lighter/faster bullets lose their energy/momentum quicker even though they may start out with slightly more energy at the muzzle.

I want people to understand why I feel the 200XTP's perform well as a hollow point while having the neccessary weight to carry it to deep penetration, close to FMJ/Cast performance. At the rate things keep going, the 0.400" HP bullets will all be designed to perform at the 40 Short & Weak levels and trying to drive them at the true 10MM velocities will degrade their performance signifantly.

Ps. I don't mean to ruffle any feathers! while preaching the the choir so to speak.

CanyonMan
06-23-2010, 06:02
CanyonMan, Maybe this didn't come across right...I strickly wanted to stay with the 10MM and the heavier bullets...the reference to the lighter faster bullets from the 10MM might be compared to the 357mag but the heavier larger bullets shouldn't be compared with those of the larger bore/diameter/weights of 41mag and 44mag and (being you mentioned it the 45 Long Colt also) because these are outside the balistics of the 10MM emvelope of power vs, weight. BTW all of them are capable in there own right!

Merely trying to keep it real, concerning the ballistics/performance of the 10MM. It is what it is, when loaded to it's potential...more than the 40S&W but less than and slightly under the 41Mag.

I didn't mention the cast bullets to be a bad thing, but I have seen some shear. The hardness of 19/21BHN are very hard and take quite a bit to oburate to fill the bore, these do very well indeed especially the Wide Meplat. When you get the heavier bullets moving they carry the momentum to get deeper into the intended target. Lighter/faster bullets lose their energy/momentum quicker even though they may start out with slightly more energy at the muzzle.

I want people to understand why I feel the 200XTP's perform well as a hollow point while having the neccessary weight to carry it to deep penetration, close to FMJ/Cast performance. At the rate things keep going, the 0.400" HP bullets will all be designed to perform at the 40 Short & Weak levels and trying to drive them at the true 10MM velocities will degrade their performance signifantly.

Ps. I don't mean to ruffle any feathers! while preaching the the choir so to speak.





No ruffles here man. Again, simply 'correcting' what I pointed out in "blue" that you said in the post above. ;) Post # 40.



CM

4GLOCKER
06-23-2010, 06:21
I watched a You Tube video with Hickok45 shooting DT 230gr 10mm hardcast gas charged lead ammo from a stock G20 and the bullets were tumbling. He switched to a Lone Wolf barrel and they worked fine.

Taterhead
06-23-2010, 23:42
The 200 grain WFNGCs seem to run fine in the stock barrel, but that poly barrel seems to have trouble stabilizing that long 230 grainer.

mejetski2000
06-26-2010, 08:44
I have to agree (mostly) with Canyonman's statement regarding 10mm vs .44mag (or even .41mag) power levels. I own a M29 and have loaded my own 135gr/150gr Nosler bullet loads that push mid-13's but my .44mag Alaskan can drive 300gr well up in the speed catagory (Cast Performance/Beartooth) and those WILL break bones, be it a bear or similar "dangerous" animal. IMO there is NO basis for comparision and I know which gun I'D use in bear country. Having said that, a hiker recently sucessfully defended a bear attack with a .45 acp (I think he emptied the gun and IMO got REAL lucky). A GOOD heat-treated cast bullet won't "shatter" and is the ONLY type of bullet I'd put in a M20/M29 to face Black Bears with. Grizzely bears are another ballgame altogether IMO.

CanyonMan
06-26-2010, 17:55
I have to agree (mostly) with Canyonman's statement regarding 10mm vs .44mag (or even .41mag) power levels. I own a M29 and have loaded my own 135gr/150gr Nosler bullet loads that push mid-13's but my .44mag Alaskan can drive 300gr well up in the speed catagory (Cast Performance/Beartooth) and those WILL break bones, be it a bear or similar "dangerous" animal. IMO there is NO basis for comparision and I know which gun I'D use in bear country. Having said that, a hiker recently sucessfully defended a bear attack with a .45 acp (I think he emptied the gun and IMO got REAL lucky). A GOOD heat-treated cast bullet won't "shatter" and is the ONLY type of bullet I'd put in a M20/M29 to face Black Bears with. Grizzely bears are another ballgame altogether IMO.


Been there, done that ! HC are very nasty out of big bor hog legs.


45LC 335gr Hard Cast.
http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/0621000934a.jpg


I carry and use on the ranch, and in the high country, as well as 25 years of guiding, a 300/335 gr HC bullet in 45LC Black Hawk /some times Vaquero, @ 1150/1200 fps. That is all that is needed from elk to moose to the biggest of bruins. ;)

No service calibers in big bear country. I always have a rifle, NEVER "just" a hand gun. 10mm with the heaviest of hard cast is 'very minimal' IMO in bear country. If that's all ya got, thats all ya got. ;)



Stay Safe !



CM

mejetski2000
06-27-2010, 17:53
Got me beat there CM. I'm still trying to find ANY JHP load that shoots as good as Cast Performance 255gr LBT over 18.5gr #2400 out of my Alaskan ; )

180 and 200gr XTP's at 1,200 or so work pretty good too but they don't blow the backstop up like the LBT does LOL.

I load my Glock 29 to get (approx) .357Mag ballistics and if I need bigger than the Alaskan gets the nod. If I HAD to pick a heavy bullet for the 29 against Blackies I'd get a BONDED 180gr so I could keep the velocity as high as I can. Just my .02..

Pete

CanyonMan
06-28-2010, 08:02
Got me beat there CM. I'm still trying to find ANY JHP load that shoots as good as Cast Performance 255gr LBT over 18.5gr #2400 out of my Alaskan ; )

180 and 200gr XTP's at 1,200 or so work pretty good too but they don't blow the backstop up like the LBT does LOL.

I load my Glock 29 to get (approx) .357Mag ballistics and if I need bigger than the Alaskan gets the nod. If I HAD to pick a heavy bullet for the 29 against Blackies I'd get a BONDED 180gr so I could keep the velocity as high as I can. Just my .02..

Pete



Hey Pete,

I am a 18.5gr 2400 NUT. Man I have been using that exact load (for different apps) for well, almost 40+ years. There is no magic bullet and no magic load, BUT, if there were it would be 18.5grs 2400 in a 44mag/45LC with a 250/275gr HC bullet. Man that will take down anything a man is going to run into. I have tons of loads I've worked up over the years, for use in close quarters cactus and mesquite thicket type brushy places, to more wide open type/needed shots. In the 44mag/44special/45LC, I stick with HC bullets, and 2400/H110/Unique. On occasion I will use the Hornady XTP "Magnum." That is a big honker and works very well also, but still nothing touches the 'true Hard Cast bullets with large meplats'. Glad to see another HC amigo out there. ;)

Have fun
Good shooting.



CanyonMan

mejetski2000
06-28-2010, 15:09
Appologies to the OP for the diversion from the topic. I'd not feel unarmed in black bear country with a heavy and fast 180-200gr bullet in a Glock 29 but as many of us have built many 10mm loads can attest you will likely run into pressure issues before the 1,200fps threshold, particularly dangerous in a stock Glock barrel. There isn't an ammo maker out there who's velocity claims frequently don't perform as stated on the box, which is one of the reasons we DO handload. I try to cover my ass and have a KKM barrel to reduce brass expansion (or rupturing) but it's not hard to blow up a 10mm (ask around). Whenever possible I stick with published data and see what kind of baseline I get from that and where it might be possible to improve things.

I actually had a bad batch of Hodgdon L'il Gun that cracked the cylinder on my Alaskan even though the load was several grains UNDER MAX !! Stupidly I finished the cylinderful (vertical recoil and loudest blast EVER from the gun) and no one got hurt. That powder got scrapped. If you DON'T have a GOOD aftermarket barrel, get one before you undertake this project please.

CM, sorry I get a bit giddy about .44's and LBT's, my bad LOL. Someday I may try the 300gr XTP for laughs but there's just something about LBT's, ain't there ? ; )

CanyonMan
06-28-2010, 21:26
Appologies to the OP for the diversion from the topic. I'd not feel unarmed in black bear country with a heavy and fast 180-200gr bullet in a Glock 29 but as many of us have built many 10mm loads can attest you will likely run into pressure issues before the 1,200fps threshold, particularly dangerous in a stock Glock barrel. There isn't an ammo maker out there who's velocity claims frequently don't perform as stated on the box, which is one of the reasons we DO handload. I try to cover my ass and have a KKM barrel to reduce brass expansion (or rupturing) but it's not hard to blow up a 10mm (ask around). Whenever possible I stick with published data and see what kind of baseline I get from that and where it might be possible to improve things.

I actually had a bad batch of Hodgdon L'il Gun that cracked the cylinder on my Alaskan even though the load was several grains UNDER MAX !! Stupidly I finished the cylinderful (vertical recoil and loudest blast EVER from the gun) and no one got hurt. That powder got scrapped. If you DON'T have a GOOD aftermarket barrel, get one before you undertake this project please.

CM, sorry I get a bit giddy about .44's and LBT's, my bad LOL. Someday I may try the 300gr XTP for laughs but there's just something about LBT's, ain't there ? ; )


Yes there is something very special about those big honkin lbt HC bullets. I have had almost 50 years worth of fun and success with them ! ;)

I do not think we have strayed from the OP's original topic at all. We have put in our two cents worth on the G29 fodder for him, and he will have to come to his own conclusion which I am confident he will.

Again, in my G20's and 29, I use a 200gr cast bullet for what every one is calling a "woods gun." If you (op ) do not reload then simply get them from Buffalo Bore and load up and go on. I have shot tons of lead bullets (home rolled and hot) through factory glock barrels, NO Problems. Just shoot 20/21 bhn bullets which are what BB are and clean the barrel out with a brush every 40/50 rounds. No biggie. I have shot hundreds of rounds through the stock Glock barrels with great accuracy, and not had a problem. It just takes common sense and some cleaning in between every 30/40/50 shots if you want to really stay safe and are concerned.

Shoot FMJ 180gr or 200gr through it to practice with, and carry in the woods the 200gr HC and don't worry about it. The rest of this stuff is internet myth !

Your G29 will handle 200gr fodder with no problems. I do recommend a wolff 22# spring, and wolff steel guide rod. No big deal. Yes after market barrels do give you more 6 'o clock support. Best for te hand loader. But if you are sticking with factory fodder like BB for the woods. Just do it and do not panic. All will be fine. ;)


Good luck
good shooting





CanyonMan